Vojvodina Croatians also with gripes

[Watzy]

Vojvodina Croatians also with gripes

October 26. 2005.

SUBOTICA -- Wednesday – The Croatian Democratic Union of Vojvodina has adopted a declaration regarding the current situation of the Croatian population living in the region.

The declaration states that the Croatians in Vojvodina experience employment discrimination in state institutions and that the regulations for the use of the Croatian language in state institutions and in administrative and legal procedures are not being implemented.

The Croatian Democratic Union of Vojvodina states that Croatian people living in Vojvodina do not have equal rights, and the party’s president Petar Kuntic said that while these problems have been talked about earlier, no progress has been made in rectifying the situation.

Kuntic said that one of the main problems is that officials of Croatian nationality are not been allowed to become representatives in the Serbian Parliament.

“Affirmation principles have not been implemented for us, even though we are the second largest minority group in Vojvodina. By the current election laws we cannot have an authentic representative, and there are also a few more problems we have with regulations tied to our cultural autonomy.” Kuntic said.

Kuntic denies the claims that the statements made in the declaration are unfounded.

“If we had made something up, added things and blown it out of proportion, that would be a problem, because then some officials would be able to say that the claims are unfounded. However, we are talking about a situation that the Croatian population is faced with on a daily basis.” Kuntic said.

Serbia-Montenegro Human and Minority Rights Minister, Rasim Ljajic, that these kinds of statements were expected after the European Parliament discussions in which minority rights issues in Vojvodina were talked about. Ljajic said that all the groups are trying to use the opportunity to internationalize their problems, in other words, to hold discussion about what they want in Brussels instead of Belgrade.

“This is a bad scenario, for minorities and for the collective political ambient of the nation. This can encourage nationalists, from minority and majority groups, specifically because of the fact that a number of accusations were made that have no realistic foundations. But, I don’t want to add fuel to the fire, I want to discuss all the accusations that where presented.” Ljajic said.

http://www.b92.net/english/news/index.php?&nav_category=&nav_id=33151&order=priority&style=headlines

[Slavic Enforcer]

In my opinion Serbs in Croatia and Croats in Serbia should either assimilate themselves or leave the country.

That applies to all other minorities there, too.

[Corex]

In my opinion Serbs in Croatia and Croats in Serbia should either assimilate themselves or leave the country.

That applies to all other minorities there, too.
It is similar in France. Everyone in France are Frenchmens, out of France there is no Frenchmens.

[Zrinski]

The thing is that those people have been living there for centuries and then one day borders changed. So they don't have to assimilate or anything....they are on their own.

France is totally different thing however since it had more-less the same borders for centuries.

[Watzy]

The issue of Vojvodina (ex-Hungarian Banat and ex-Croatian Sirmia) remind me a bit on Alsace/Elsass and Lorraine/Lotharingia issue, yet the French citizenship model based on jus soli principle can hardly be applied on heterogeneous and relatively recent Frankenstein states such as Serbia and Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

[Banat]

The issue of Vojvodina (ex-Hungarian Banat and ex-Croatian Sirmia)

A misleading and incomplete remark. Prior to 1918, circa 1,000 years in the past, Banat and Srem belonged to independent states of Serbia, Bulgaria and even Turkey, and in different time periods within Austria and Austria-Hungary as parts of Dukedom Serbia, too. They were under *feudal* rule of many states in the past, but ethnic structure of the people living there was more-less the same as now - Serbian by majority, with Romanians prevailing in Eastern Banat, which is since 1918 an integral part of Romania.

[Banat]

heterogeneous and relatively recent Frankenstein states such as Serbia and Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

I couldn't agree more. Totally unnatural and artificial structures of what is to be and be called simply as 'Serbia'.

[Zrinski]

Sorry but Banat nor Sirmia never belonged to Serbia until 1918(Banat and Bacs) and after 1945(Sirmia).

[Watzy]

A misleading and incomplete remark. Prior to 1918, circa 1,000 years in the past, Banat and Srem belonged to independent states of Serbia, Bulgaria and even Turkey

My 'remarks' are based on historic facts, while your are simply false. You should specify when was Vojvodina Serbian because as far as I known Banat and Srijem were never a part of any Serbian state prior to 1918.

http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/Serbia_Boundaries.gif

and in different time periods within Austria and Austria-Hungary as parts of Dukedom Serbia, too.

Lasting for 11. years, abolished in 1860.

They were under *feudal* rule of many states in the past, but ethnic structure of the people living there was more-less the same as now - Serbian by majority

Serbs never pestered any part of the Pannonian valley in significant number prior to the Ottoman Expansion. Majority of Vojvodian Serbs settled Banat and Srijem in 18. century (seoba Srbalja).

with Romanians prevailing in Eastern Banat, which is since 1918 an integral part of Romania.

Why adding the confusion with Eastern Banat issue, since it's not relevant for this problem? Lands we are debating about here are eastern Srijem/Sirmium (because the western part remained within Croatia after 1945.) and Western Banat (ex-south of Hungary).

[Watzy]

I couldn't agree more. Totally unnatural and artificial structures of what is to be and be called simply as 'Serbia'.

Most of it shall be divided between neighboring nations. Until than, the minorities of these nations shall be used as nutcrackers from within.

[Watzy]

Stariji ali još uvijek aktualan članak iz 2004., vezan uz problematiku Hrvata (Šokaca i Bunjevaca) pod Srbijom:

Ponovni zadah Vuka Karadžića

Uz »incidente« posebno zabrinjava popratno medijsko stvaranje negativnog ozračja prema Hrvatima, Katoličkoj Crkvi, svećenicima, hrvatskim političkim strankama i udrugama u Srbiji i Crnoj Gori. U tome se, nažalost, ne biraju sredstva pa je beogradski »Nedeljni telegraf« otišao tako daleko da je kao »senzaciju« objavio najobičniji falsifikat u cilju zatiranja hrvatstva Bunjevaca i Šokaca!

Nedavno je hrvatska javnost čula za incidente u nekim naseljima u kojima žive Hrvati na sjeveru Bačke, u Srbiji i Crnoj Gori, u kojima se očitovala velikosrpska mržnja prema njima. Iako su Hrvati na tim prostorima starosjedioci, što je uopće suvišno dokazivati, patološki su umovi ponovno pokušali rušenjem spomenika hrvatskim povijesnim velikanima, katoličkih križeva krajputaša i nadgrobnih spomenika, razbijanjem prozora na sjedištima hrvatskih ustanova i telefonskim prijetnjama, unijeti strah i nemir među pripadnike toga miroljubivog dijela hrvatskoga naroda kojemu se i u nedavnom najvećem ratnom ludilu nije moglo pripisati ni jedno zlodjelo a pogotovo zločin. Nažalost, slični su se nemili događaji i kasnije nastavili a hrvatska javnost nije bila izviještena o njima, npr. o urezivanju četiri ćirilična slova »S« na automobile, onečišćivanju izmetom i smećem automobila sa zagrebačkom registarskom oznakom, uništavanju tiskovina iz Hrvatske s urednom dostavom prazne omotnice i dr. Posebno zabrinjava popratno medijsko stvaranje negativnog ozračja prema Hrvatima, Katoličkoj Crkvi, svećenicima, hrvatskim političkim strankama i udrugama.

Sreća starih Latina

O jednome su takvom članku prilično neprofesionalno, tj. nekritički pisale i pojedine hrvatske novine. Riječ je o beogradskom tjedniku »Nedeljni telegraf« koji je 14. siječnja objavio »senzacionalno« otkriće o političkoj naredbi iz g. 1945. po kojoj se svi Bunjevci i Šokci moraju tretirati kao Hrvati!? Po tom bi »povijesnom« dokumentu, dakle, hrvatstvo Bunjevcima i Šokcima u Bačkoj bilo nametnuto, te bi oni u konačnici ipak bili »Srbi katoličke vere«. Stari bi Latini rekli: »Nihil novi sub sole! (»Ničega novog pod suncem!«), no, sreća je njihova što nisu morali trošiti vrijeme i energiju u rasprave s pojedinim srpskim veleumovima od Vuka Stefanovića Karadžića do danas, te su se mogli posvetiti pametnijim stvarima. Ovako je ljudski rod obogaćen briljantnim antičkim djelima, a osim toga, bilo kakva argumentiranost starih genijalnih umova ionako ne bi uvjerila velikosrpske ideologe u neutemeljenost i pogubnost njihovih teza. Iako već i djeca u osnovnim školama danas znaju za Karadžićevu studiju »Srbi svi i svuda«, objavljenu u Beču 1849. u »Kovčežiću«, dobro je, eto, ponovno se prisjetiti njezinih »bisera«. U njoj je, kao što je poznato, Karadžić zastupao tezu da su na ovim prostorima gotovo svi Srbi (što je vidljivo već i iz samoga naslova) i oni se razlikuju jedino po tome što su »zakona grčkog, turskog i rimskog« (tj. pravoslavni, muslimanski i katolički Srbi). Međutim, Bunjevci se i Šokci u samopoimanju vlastite etničke pripadnosti već onda nisu složili s njegovom teorijom. Zato se Vuk i čudio što »se barem ovi Srbi zakona rimskoga ne će Srbi da zovu!« ali je, svejedno, do kraja ostao ustrajan u tezi o Bunjevcima i Šokcima kao »Srbima katoličke vjere«, što je u više navrata ponavljao u raspravama s ondašnjim hrvatskim jezikoslovcima. Taj su Karadžićev velikosrpski zadah u »Nedeljni telegraf« prenijeli Nikola Babić, predsjednik »bunjevačke udruge« (zapravo prirepak Miloševićeve i Šešeljeve stranke, koje ih i financiraju) i »bunjevački istoričar« Mijo Mandić, koji se cijeli život trudi uvjeriti srpsku javnost da je i on pravi Srbin.

»Na tome radi i hrvatska država!«

Od brojnih njihovih umotvorina vrijedi citirati tek nekoliko: »Nezadovoljni verskim delovanjem svojih duhovnih predvodnika i odnosom vlasti prema njihovom nacionalnom identitetu, Bunjevci u Subotici odbijaju da budu asimilovani... Redovno idem u crkvu. Bunjevci su veliki vernici, odani svojoj katoličkoj veri. Sada žele da nam oduzmu nacionalnu kulturu i običaje. Oni nastupaju s pozicija koje su dobili na Sveučilištu u Zagrebu... Naši sveštenici, nažalost, sistematski rade, naročito kod mlađeg naraštaja, da kroz učenje o katoličkoj veri, na svaki način, dokažu da mi više nismo Bunjevci, nego - Hrvati!... U Zagreb odu kao Bunjevci, a vraćaju se kući kao deklarisani, ortodoksni Hrvati. Na tome, također, mnogo radi i hrvatska država!... Naša matična država je Srbija, druge nemamo!... Kraljević Marko je naš isto kao i srpski... Katolička crkva nas ucenjuje time što službu drži na hrvatskom književnom jeziku, a ne na bunjevačkoj ikavici... Ako nam Srbija ne pomogne, nema ko drugi... Da nije borbe Bunjevaca i Šokaca, srpska granica bi i danas bila kod Srbobrana, što bi strateški za Srbiju bilo veoma nepovoljno... Mađarska propaganda ovde je veoma jaka. Oni deluju jedinstveno, dok su Bunjevci i Srbi razjedinjeni.«

Sve su te apsurdne teze potkrijepljen spomenutim »krunskim« dokumentom Glavnoga narodnooslobodilačkog odbora Vojvodine, Odjeljenja za unutarnje poslove, izdanom 15. svibnja 1945. u Novom Sadu i upućenom svim okružnim narodnooslobodilačkim odborima. U njemu se »naređuje da sve Bunjevce i Šokce imadete tretirati isključivo kao Hrvate bez obzira na njihovu izjavu. U raznim okruzima i mestima, gde su oni do sada uvedeni kao Šokci i Bunjevci, ima se to ispraviti i označiti kao Hrvati naročito u legitimacijama, biračkim spiskovima, putnim objavama i raznim drugim spiskovima po narodnosti«. Premda se sporni dokument može tumačiti s hrvatskog motrišta u pozitivnom svjetlu, tj. da su vlasti druge Jugoslavije htjele smanjiti međunacionalne napetosti, »stati na kraj« još uvijek prisutnoj i snažnoj velikosrpskoj ideologiji i pokazati dobronamjernost prema Hrvatima u Vojvodini u ostvarivanju njihovih nacionalnih prava, sva ta tumačenja, nažalost, »padaju u vodu«. Naime, već na prvi pogled bez velikih analiza i provjeravanja činjenica sporni je dokument najobičniji falsifikat! Koeficijent inteligencije sadašnjih velikosrpskih falsifikatora je, očito, toliko mali da je njihov »ključni« dokument pisan i na latinici i na ćirilici! Dakle, montirani dokument od svega pet rečenica prošao je barem »dva filtra«, pisan je najmanje u dva navrata i na dva pisaća stroja. Osim toga, bilo bi zanimljivo saznati nalazi li se i u drugim općinskim i mjesnim arhivima sporni dokument koji je, kako to doslovce stoji u njemu, razaslan po cijeloj Vojvodini jer teško je povjerovati kako je sačuvan tek jedan jedini, i to upravo onaj kojemu je beogradski tjednik posvetio pune dvije stranice. »Telegraf« je objavio faksimil i drugog dokumenta od 7. lipnja 1945. u kojem se uredno izvješćuje »da su bunjevačke i šokačke narodnosti po legitimacijama, biračkim spiskovima, putnim objavama i raznim drugim spiskovima ispravljeni i uvedeni u Hrvate«. I na njega ne treba trošiti puno riječi jer se nitko od starijih Hrvata u Vojvodini ne sjeća da je odmah nakon rata trebalo stajati u redu pred mjesnim uredima s »legitimacijama« i »putnim objavama« radi »ispravke«.

Osim toga, suvremeni bi srbijanski gospodari medijskog prostora, kojega zagađuju Vukovim zadahom, morali objasniti, u prvome redu sebi a potom i javnosti, kako to da je hrvatstvo Šokaca u Slavoniji, Baranji, zapadnom Srijemu i drugim krajevima njima samima oduvijek bilo neupitno? Zašto ga onodobna jugoslavenska vlast njima nije morala »nametati« nikakvim administrativnim mjerama, nego jedino baš onima u Vojvodini? Po čemu se to bitno razlikuju Šokci u sadašnjoj Hrvatskoj (ili Mađarskoj) od Šokaca u Vojvodini (osim u činjenici da jedni potpuno slobodno žive svoju hrvatsku nacionalnu pripadnost, dok se drugima »s onu stranu Dunava«, nažalost, to priječi, u ovisnosti o povijesnim okolnostima, ponekad tek medijski, kao sada, a ponekad i fizički, kao u devedesetim godinama prošloga stoljeća)?

Na kraju, kada biste prosječnog Bunjevca pitali što misli o iznesenoj tvrdnji da su odmah nakon rata, koji je u onodobnoj Jugoslaviji završio 15. svibnja 1945, u manje od dva tjedna izdane nove legitimacije ili stare prepravljene, kao i putovnice (od tisuće primjeraka također bi barem jedan morao biti sačuvan do danas), ili prepravljeni svi birački i drugi popisi, on bi odmahnuo rukom i rekao: »Ta, mánite!«

http://www.glas-koncila.hr/rubrike_aktualno.html?news_ID=535

[Banat]

My 'remarks' are based on historic facts, while your are simply false. You should specify when was Vojvodina Serbian because as far as I known Banat and Srijem were never a part of any Serbian state prior to 1918.

Huh, here we go again... (I wonder if there's any use of it).

Well, for instance, Srem was part of Serbian state during the reign of King Dragutin in 13th century, he even died there as a monk in a Serbian monastery, under the name Theoktist. His earthly remains were soon transferred from Srem to Sofia.

Banat was part of independent Serbian state under Despot Stefan in 15th century, and seats of many latter Serbian Despots within Hungarian state were in Srem...

Serbs never pestered any part of the Pannonian valley in significant number prior to the Ottoman Expansion. Majority of Vojvodian Serbs settled Banat and Srijem in 18. century (seoba Srbalja).

Rubbish. Serbs were inhabitants of those areas from much earlier times. And 'The Great Migration of Serbli' occurred in 17th century, and not in 18th.

Why adding the confusion with Eastern Banat issue, since it's not relevant for this problem? Lands we are debating about here are eastern Srijem/Sirmium (because the western part remained within Croatia after 1945.) and Western Banat (ex-south of Hungary)

Just because. You see, under Hungarian rule, Banat was one and undivided entity, and as such Eastern Banat cannot be discussed separately from Western one in any debate involving lands of Hungarian Crown.

Most of it shall be divided between neighboring nations. Until than, the minorities of these nations shall be used as nutcrackers from within.

Won't do. What the hell would they do with numerous Serbian minority, while on the other hand their low-numbered compatriots enjoy every possible right and privilege in Serbia already?

Anyway, it was already done in the past, and it never worked.

[Banat]

Na kraju, kada biste prosječnog Bunjevca pitali što misli o iznesenoj tvrdnji da su odmah nakon rata, koji je u onodobnoj Jugoslaviji završio 15. svibnja 1945, u manje od dva tjedna izdane nove legitimacije ili stare prepravljene, kao i putovnice (od tisuće primjeraka također bi barem jedan morao biti sačuvan do danas), ili prepravljeni svi birački i drugi popisi, on bi odmahnuo rukom i rekao: »Ta, mánite!«

Na ovo sam morao da se nasmejem. I rečca 'ta' i glagol 'manuti' = pustiti / ostaviti su raško nasleđe, koje je tamo uglavnom nestalo nakon iseljavanja, i naseljavanja tih krajeva Crnogorcima i Hercegovcima.

Pričalo se kad su došli Partizani u Banat, da su pitali Lalu šta da rade sa Folksdojčerima (domaćim Nemcima), a on im odgovorio »Ta, mán'te ih«, misleći da ih puste na miru, a ovi ih 'potamaniše'.

[Watzy]

Well, for instance, Srem was part of Serbian state during the reign of King Dragutin in 13th century, he even died there as a monk in a Serbian monastery, under the name Theoktist. His earthly remains were soon transferred from Srem to Sofia.

Again you are contributing to the unnecessary confusion....Dragutin never ruled the province we are talking about - the Upper Srijem (present day Srijem), but Mačva - in those days called the 'lower Srijem'.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Srem04.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaÄ?va

Interesting to notice, Croatian families such as Ivaniš Morović and Ivaniš Horvat (brother of Bishop Pavao of Zagreb) also rulled Mačva (and Belgrade as well). :p

Banat was part of independent Serbian state under Despot Stefan in 15th century, and seats of many latter Serbian Despots within Hungarian state were in Srem...

Despot Stefan was a vassal of Hungarian-Croatian king Sigismund, this is why the rule over Banat was given to him, and he lost it to the Turks. :rolleyes:

Serbs were inhabitants of those areas from much earlier times.

Let me put it to you this way - Bulgarians are more native to Srijem than the Serbs, at least it was a part of Bulgarian empire once, just like entire Serbia.

You see, under Hungarian rule, Banat was one and undivided entity, and as such Eastern Banat cannot be discussed separately from Western one in any debate involving lands of Hungarian Crown.

Applying the same principle you should regard Eastern Srijem as one with Western Srijem (the kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia).

[Banat]

Again you are contributing to the unnecessary confusion....Dragutin never ruled the province we are talking about - the Upper Srijem (present day Srijem), but Mačva - in those days called the 'lower Srijem'.

Yes. The statements presented in the link you provided are accepted by many. Yet, only some sources mention a Ugrin Cak as a local ruler of "Upper Srem", and this is what brings the unnecesarry confusion, since most of the others place all of Srem within Dragutin's state, and this is what is official. Some even mention Slavonia too, but that one is not widely accepted. But, again, a picture is worth a thousand words, right?

Interesting to notice, Croatian families such as Ivaniš Morović and Ivaniš Horvat (brother of Bishop Pavao of Zagreb) also rulled Budva (and Belgrade as well). :p

Interesting indeed. The Horvat family even gave some distinguished leaders of Serbli, their great protectors, and fighters for their national and religious interests, like Jovan Horvat and Mihajlo Horvat, first of which was the organizer of 'Serbian Migration to Russia' in mid 18th century, and one of the founders of 'New Serbia' in Russia (present Ukraine).

Despot Stefan was a vassal of Hungarian-Croatian king Sigismund, this is why the rule over Banat was given to him,

Yes, this is true. Not just a vassal, but one of the most trusted men of his, and a close friend also. Still, the lands he ruled weren't considered as lands of Hungarian Crown at the moment. And it wasn't just him who lost Banat, we all lost it then.

Let me put it to you this way - Bulgarians are more native to Srijem than the Serbs, at least it was a part of Bulgarian empire once, just like entire Serbia.

Rubish. Medieval states had little to do with the ethnicities populating the areas. Hungarians were a minority within their own borders for centuries, while Serbs ruled territories inhabited with Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians, for instance.

Serbian presence in Hungary can be traced from 10th century, soon after the foundation of Hungarian state. Anyway, I suggest you should look into Hungarian sorces for facts on how and when they colonized their own country, and when they first came to Banat and Backa in greater numbers.

Applying the same principle you should regard Eastern Srijem as one with Western Srijem (the kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia).

But I do! Srem IS a one entity, dispite the borders. The people by customs and mentality is the same there, regardless of their national declaration.

[Watzy]

Šokci weir hats, like Northern Croatians do.

Šokci:

http://www.hrt.hr/auto/arhivvijesti/2003/06/07/45.jpg
The Holy Father wearing a Šokci hat in Đakovo, the center of the Šokci land - Croatian colors on it were worn traditionally.

http://www.brodfest.com/images/tri/kudposavina.jpg

http://www.matijagubec.org.yu/slike/8223688.jpg

http://jesusquintana.blog.hr/slike/226114.jpg
This fellow we borrowed from Dalmatians. :)

Serbs do not weir hats, but the Šajkača (like Mladic) or a simple Turkish fez like Vuk Stefanović Karadjic wore.

Vuk Stefanović Karadjic in Turkish fez:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/VukKaradzic.jpg
http://www.vukova-zaduzbina.org.yu/starivuk.gif
To make thing funnier he was a historic inventor of 'Serbo-Catholics' and thesis about Serbhood of štokavian Croats (including Šokci).

Reading the official pages of Đakovo-Srijem diocese, there is no mention of Sokci as 'Serbian Catholics' in Slavonia or Eastern Srijem (occupied part): http://djakovo.hbk.hr/new/index.php?main=biskupija_povijest&rb=menu

[Banat]

Wow, Vuk Karadzic wearing a fez! :eek:

I bet nobody knew that. He only wore it, like, during all of his life? ;) Man, there's not a single one picture of him without a fez on his head. His fez became his trademark.

The Holy Father wearing a Šokci hat in Đakovo, the center of the Šokci land - Croatian colors on it were worn traditionally.

. . .

Serbs do not weir hats, but the Šajkača (like Mladic) or a simple Turkish fez like Vuk Stefanović Karadjic wore.

Serbs do not wear hats? :rolleyes: What the hell is this then?

Here's a picture in which it is obvious how 'Šokci hat' is "totally different" from the hat worn by Serbs of Vojvodina in their traditional folk costumes:

http://www.perlez.org.yu/slike/kud/m/kud016_m.jpg (http://www.perlez.org.yu/slike/kud/v/kud016.jpg)
Perlez, a village in Banat - Serbian Tamburitza orchestra in traditional Serbian costumes
(Click on the image to enlarge it)

Reading the official pages of Đakovo-Srijem diocese, there is no mention of Sokci as 'Serbian Catholics' in Slavonia or Eastern Srijem (occupied part):

But there was in Austrian-Hungarian censi in Vojvodina.

Come on, Zvaci, you can do better than that. This is just trolling, you knew very well that national costumes are more-less the same in all Southern Pannonia.

http://jesusquintana.blog.hr/slike/226114.jpg
This fellow we borrowed from Dalmatians. :)

And we borrowed this one from Belgrade:
http://www.siol.net/novice/XP_Images/61905071720331137-0.jpg

Serbia&Montenegro's Oscar candidate in 2004, "Jesen stiže dunjo moja" ("Goose Feather"), a love story which takes place one hundred years ago in the past, in Vojvodina.

[Watzy]

Here's a picture in which it is obvious how 'Šokci hat' is "totally different" from the hat worn by Serbs of Vojvodina

If you put it like that, Sokci hats are rather close to Amish hats as well, but they are not Amish hats.

But there was in Austrian-Hungarian censi in Vojvodina.

And how did this census proved the alleged Serbhood of Sokci in Srijem?

http://www.siol.net/novice/XP_Images/61905071720331137-0.jpg

No offense, but in a Croatian movies, such hats are usually worn by Hungarian Gypsie violinists who entertain Sokci in drinking hours. Placing such hat on the head of rural Slavonian would make no sense whatsoever.

[Zrinski]

"Jesen stize dunjo moja"(title of that movie) is traditional Croatian song performed by Zvonko Bogdan, a Croat from Sirmium. Funny that a Serbian movie is having that title.

[Banat]

"Jesen stize dunjo moja"(title of that movie) is traditional Croatian song performed by Zvonko Bogdan, a Croat from Sirmium.

Not quite so, Zrniski. Not at all. :nono:

"Jesen stiže dunjo moja" ("Autumn is coming, my quince") is a traditional 19th century Serbian song (Starogradska), that also in time became popular, and hence traditional, with Pannonian Croats, too (so much for how alien is Serbian culture to Croats, Zvaci). It needs to be checked, but I think it was written by Isidor Bajić, who wrote many of those songs that are popular today, to a Hungarian melody, in 19th century. Which isn't a surprise, for the lyrics is written in pure dialect of Vojvodian Serbs.

Among others, it is today performed by Vojvodian Bunjevac (and not Croat from Sirmium) Zvonko Bogdan, too.

Funny that a Serbian movie is having that title.

Not at all. The song is staggeringly popular around these parts, also made eternal by Đorđe Balašević, who inspired by it wrote a another popular Yugoslav song "Svirajte mi 'Jesen stiže dunjo moja'" (I say 'Yugoslav' because the author made it clear that although being a Serb, his music is to be considered as a heritage of all ex-Yu nations).

Songs do not know borders among peoples of similar languages. Except only for nationalistic songs.

[Zrinski]

Not quite so, Zrniski. Not at all. :nono:

"Jesen stiže dunjo moja" ("Autumn is coming, my quince") is a traditional 19th century Serbian song (Starogradska), that also in time became popular, and hence traditional, with Pannonian Croats, too (so much for how alien is Serbian culture to Croats, Zvaci). It needs to be checked, but I think it was written by Isidor Bajić, who wrote many of those songs that are popular today, to a Hungarian melody, in 19th century. Which isn't a surprise, for the lyrics is written in pure dialect of Vojvodian Serbs.

Among others, it is today performed by Vojvodian Bunjevac (and not Croat from Sirmium) Zvonko Bogdan, too.

Sorry but no. Thats a Croatian song that was performed in at that times Croatian cities. That today they are part of Serbia is something totally different and irrelevant.

Also Zvonko Bogdan is a Croat and a Bunjevac. One cannot be Bunjevac and not a Croat.

[Watzy]

Thats a Croatian song that was performed in at that times Croatian cities. That today they are part of Serbia is something totally different and irrelevant.

True. Ban Josip Jelačić, a Croat mobleman by birth was born in Petrovaradin, Srijem.

[Ace Rimmer]

The same confusion seems to be with popular:

"Oj Hrvatska mati
nemoj tugovati
Oj Hrvatska mati
nemoj tugovati

Zovi, samo zovi
svi će sokolovi
za te život dati"

I saw Serbian fans sang it somewhere,
of course, with replacement Hrvatska with Srbijo.

I was quite surprised and shocked to find out later that this was not out of provocation,
but It was pointed out to me that this is considered to be Serbian patriotic song.

Does anybody know more?

[Banat]

Sorry but no. Thats a Croatian song that was performed in at that times Croatian cities. That today they are part of Serbia is something totally different and irrelevant.

What kind of an argument to what I wrote is: "No, it isn't"?

I checked. The poem was written by a Serb Milorad Petrović - Seljančica from Šumadija, Serbia Proper (not even from Vojvodina!), dedicated to his wife Ruža (Rose), later modified and composed by a Serb also: Isidor Bajić, one of the most famous Serbian composers, who also had nothing to do with Croatia.

The only "Croatian" parts where the song was performed could only be Srem, Austraia-Hungary. The song was and is also sung in Banat, Backa and Belgrade too, and the fact that it was sung by Srem Serbs could not possibly ever make it Croatian exclusively.

Jesus, what would happen if we discussed folk songs from mixed areas, when I have so much trouble explaining that one of the most popular Serbian songs, written by Serbs, isn't exclusively Croatian?

[Banat]

I was quite surprised and shocked to find out later that this was not out of provocation,
but It was pointed out to me that this is considered to be Serbian patriotic song.

Same here! I was also shocked when I heard from some football fans that the song was also considered Croatian, but truly, and not out of provocation. Later I heard the same from a man who was an expert on nationalistic songs from Serbia and Croatia, and who said that there are some songs that are literaly the same. Similar is with Serbian "Marširala Kralja Petra garda" ("The March of King Peter's Guard Unit") and Croatian "Spustila se gusta magla iznad Zagreba" ("Thick Fog over Zagreb").

The version of "Zovi samo zovi" of the 1990's had the following lyrics:



OJ, SRBIJO MATI


Oj Srbijo mati, nemoj tugovati,
Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi,
Za te život dati.

Srem, Banat i Bačka, tri srca junačka,
Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi,
Za te život dati.

Herceg-Bosna, Lika, to je srpska dika,
Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi,
Za te život dati.

Crna Gora mila, uvek s nama bila,
Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi,
Za te život dati.

But that was just a variation of a less popular 1918 song from Vojvodina:



ZOVI, SAMO ZOVI

Srem, Banat i Bačka, tri srca junačka,
Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi,
Za te život dati.

Sitna kiša pada, Austrija propada,
Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi,
Za te život dati.

Hladan vetar piri, Srbija se širi,
Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi,
Za te život dati.



Like I said, the songs don't have an ethnicity.

[Zrinski]

Ma to su sve "srpske pesme".... :rolleyes:

[Ace Rimmer]

Croatian:

Oj Hrvatska mati, nemoj tugovati.
Oj Hrvatska mati, nemoj tugovati.


Zovi, samo zovi, svi će sokolovi
Za te život dati.


Srijem, Banat i Bačka, tri srca junačka!
Srijem, Banat i Bačka, tri srca junačka!

Herceg-Bosna, Lika, to je naša dika!
Herceg-Bosna, Lika, to je naša dika!

Dalma, Kvarner, Istra, slobodno nek blista!
Dalma, Kvarner, Istra, slobodno nek blista!


Za mir, za slobodu, Hrvatskom narodu,
Život ćemo dati!

Intriguing :cool:

[Banat]

Ma to su sve "srpske pesme".... :rolleyes:

No, that was not what I was trying to say. If the song suits the taste of the people, and it is performed in more-less similar way, there is no way to say that one song is an exclusive property of only one people.

The song *is* Serbian, but naturally not exclusively Serbian since it is so popular with Croats, that its origin seems to have become forgotten, and is accepted as a traditional. If tamburitza orchestras play this Serbian song in Croatian inns, and on Croatian cultural manifestation, and if it has become accepted by Croatian folk, it has become a part of Croatian cultural heritage as well. If I'm not wrong, Oliver Dragojevic from Dalmatia sings it too.

Nothing odd here. Similar is the folk song of an unknown author 'Zajdi, zajdi', Serbian, Slav-Macedonian and Bulgarian folk song, considered as national heritage of all three peoples. Only in the case of "Jesen stiže dunjo moja" both the writer and the composer are known.

:D

[Zrinski]

You were right. Jesen stize Dunjo moja was indeed written by a Serb and composed by another one. However this is old song sang in cities all across Bacs, Sirmium and Banat and is indeed now equally part of all those cultures living in Vojvodina. Sorry for my overreaction.

It also seems Oj, Srbijo Mati is original written song and Oj, Hrvatska Mati is Croatian version modelled by it. Blah....

[Ace Rimmer]

It also seems Oj, Srbijo Mati is original written song and Oj, Hrvatska Mati is Croatian version modelled by it. Blah....

Where did you find out?

[Zrinski]

Where did you find out?

http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2004/08/05/pisma/srpski/pisma.shtml

[Ace Rimmer]

Is "O Srbijo mati" (lyrics provided here by Banat) and "O Srbijo mila mati" the same song?

[Zrinski]

Is "O Srbijo mati" (lyrics provided here by Banat) and "O Srbijo mila mati" the same song?

Yes, it's the same song.

[Ace Rimmer]

Ok, thanks.

[Banat]

It also seems Oj, Srbijo Mati is original written song and Oj, Hrvatska Mati is Croatian version modelled by it. Blah....

http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2004/08/05/pisma/srpski/pisma.shtml

Although I particularly like the course this discussion has taken and the conclusions made, I need to be fair and say that this song: "Oj Srbijo, mila mati" is a different song from the "Oj Srbijo, mati" also called "Zovi, samo zovi".

"Oj Srbijo, mila mati" is a magnificent song, while "Zovi, samo zovi" appears quite amateurish and plain folkish compared to it. "Oj Srbijo, mila mati" is the one that starts with:

Oj Srbijo, mila mati,
Uvek ću te tako zvati!
Mila zemljo, mili dome,
Na srcu je slatko tvome . . .

A typical patriotic song that brings out nothing but the purest feelings of gratitude, and not national pride or egoism, like most of the others 'nationalistic' songs do.

[Ace Rimmer]

Is the melody same?

[Zrinski]

A typical patriotic song that brings out nothing but the purest feelings of gratitude, and not national pride or egoism, like most of the others 'nationalistic' songs do.

I read that this was Serbian anthem for short time and that some people are proposing it as a new anthem for Serbia.

[Watzy]

Sitna kiša pada, Austrija propada...

Roughly - "Rain if falling, Austria is going down..."

I dont think this is the right place for such songs, we'll have no more of it! :mad:

Keep in mind, this is not onlly Croatian, but Austrian and Hungarian place - not Serbian.

[Banat]

Is the melody same?

No, Gromovnik, the melody isn't the same.

I read that this was Serbian anthem for short time and that some people are proposing it as a new anthem for Serbia.

It was one of the rare patriotic/nationalistic songs that weren't prohibited in SFRJ, but I don't know whether it ever was made official anthem. Serbian anthem since 19th century and Obrenovic dinasty has been "Bože Pravde" - "God of Justice".

I dont think this is the right place for such songs, we'll have no more of it! :mad:

Keep in mind, this is not onlly Croatian, but Austrian and Hungarian place - not Serbian.

According to both Serbian geographical and cultural position, ando also to at least 50% of negative posts here, this place has become Serbian, too. Anyway, this was the oldest version of the song I know of, and it was its lyrics, this could hardly be qualified even as a single negative statement.

[Ace Rimmer]

No, Gromovnik, the melody isn't the same.


Thanks, this makes us back here (http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=19072#post19072)

Does anybody know more on origin of this specific song?

[Banat]

Thanks, this makes us back here (http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=19072#post19072)

Does anybody know more on origin of this specific song?

Considering me, all I know is the version I've got from this small booklet of folk and patriotic songs "for the people", printed in early 1920's, and that the song was originally played with 'tamburitzas', and not with harmonica or trumpets as it is played today.

It also bugs me how come that the verse about Srem, Banat and Backa as the 'three heroic hearts' is identical in both songs.

I also heard a version that it was invented and made popular during 'falcon gatherings' ('sokolski zborovi'), pan-Slavic activists whose anthem was Hey Slavs, future "anthem" of SFRJ. And hence those 'falcons' ready to 'give their lives'.

[Watzy]

SCG: Hrvatska nacionalna manjina može isticati svoje simbole

SUBOTICA - Hrvatska nacionalna manjina u Srbiji od prošloga tjedna može isticati svoje nacionalne simbole tijekom nacionalnih i državnih praznika, kao i na manifestacijama koje organizira ova zajednica, izjavio je u četvrtak predsjednik Hrvatskog nacionalnog vijeća u SCG Josip Pekanović.

Odluku o upotrebi ovih simbola usvojena je na sjednici Savjeta za nacionalne manjine Srbije krajem prošlog tjedna u Beogradu.

"Za pripadnike ove zajednice odluka je od velikog simboličkog značenja jer predstavlja još jednu potvrdu da je ova nacionalna manjina priznata", rekao je za program na hrvatskom jeziku Radio Subotice Pekanović.

Zastava hrvatske manjine, uz državnu, istaknuta je u skupštini općine Subotica, a koristili su je na svojim manifestacijama Demokratski savez Hrvata u Vojvodini i HKPD "Vladimir Nazor" u Somboru.

Grb hrvatske zajednice je povijesni hrvatski grb u obliku štita, ali za razliku od grba Republike Hrvatske iznad štita nema krune s pet šiljaka, a po ovom grbu razlikuje se i zastava Hrvata u SCG od one koja predstavlja Republiku Hrvatsku.

Na istoj sjednici usvojeni su simboli mađarske, bošnjačke, kao i bunjevačke manjine, koja negira svoje hrvatsko podrijetlo.

Pekanović je odluku da se usvoje i nacionalni simboli Bunjevaca prokomentirao kao "apsurdnu situaciju u kojoj jedna etnička skupina iza koje ne postoji ni država ni većinska nacija pod tim imenom ima sada obilježje i grb".

Ističući kako nisu postojali zakonski mehanizmi da se to ospori, predsjednik HNV-a je rekao kako vjeruje da će to biti riješeno kada zajednica Hrvata-Bunjevaca ponovno bude ujedinjena.

(Hina)

http://www.vecernji-list.hr/portal/services/textonly/toController.jsp?page=/newsroom/news/international/449480