Do you support Scottish Separatism?

[Ixtab]

Do you support Scottish Separatism?

[Felix the Cat]

Do you support Cascadian Separatism?

[Ixtab]

That is off-topic.

[Excorcism]

As much pride as Scotland and the Scottish people have, they reach a high level of economic success under the U.K. I know there is antagonism between Scotland and England, but I don't know what the attitude between the English and Scots are today compared to when they were separate states.

[Jimbo Gomez]

I wholeheartedly support it. Nice new avatar Ix, I used to love that cartoon.

[Ace Rimmer]

Do you support Scottish Separatism?

There is no such thing among the Scots them self.

That Mel Gibson is full of crap. :D

[Ixtab]

There is no such thing among the Scots them self.A highly informed Scottish person I know told me was a Scottish separatist, so I created this thread.

[Jonathan]

I oppose it on the grounds that the vast majority of Scots are content with the current status quo.

[Ace Rimmer]

A highly informed Scottish person I know told me was a Scottish separatist, so I created this thread.

Where is he from? Canada?

[Ixtab]

I oppose it on the grounds that the vast majority of Scots are content with the current status quo.What about the grounds that Scotland is the poorest nation in Western Europe, yet the richest in natural resources? and that england is one of the richest regions in all of Europe? The English clearly benefit from the union more than the Scottish.

[Ixtab]

Where is he from? Canada?Scotland. .

[Felix the Cat]

Some folks may not be aware that Blair and most of his colleagues and advisers are Scots

The British Labour party was founded by Scotsmen and they have always dominated its upper ranks

Why would the Scots wish to leave a country they presently govern?

[Ace Rimmer]

What I've always considered is that Scots are very nationalistic and proud considering their history, while politics and economic sentiments significantly differ.
As I see (read) it you can be very nationalistic on cultural level and yet be "left-wing" regarding economic policy.

[Jonathan]

What about the grounds that Scotland is the poorest nation in Western Europe, yet the richest in natural resources? and that england is one of the richest regions in all of Europe? The English clearly benefit from the union more than the Scottish.
What they don't know wont hurt them.

Seriously though, what's the point in rocking the boat when everyone is happy? (or rocking the boat for a tiny minority at the expence of the majority).

[Jonathan]

As I see (read) it you can be very nationalistic on cultural level and yet be "left-wing" regarding economic policy.
Communitarianism.

[Ixtab]

Some folks may not be aware that Blair and most of his colleagues and advisers are Scots

The British Labour party was founded by Scotsmen and they have always dominated its upper ranks

Why would the Scots wish to leave a country they presently govern?I have already given some reasons for that. By the way, 'presently' means 'soon', not 'currently'.

[Ixtab]

Seriously though, what's the point in rocking the boat when everyone is happy?.Most people are uneducated and are unaware of the causes of their problems. That most Scottish people suposedly think they benefit from the union means nothing if they do not.

[Jonathan]

I'm only replying on the presumption that you wont run off like you did on the Nordic thread.

Most people are uneducated and are unaware of the causes of their problems.
In the grand scheme of things, one could argue that Scottish nationalists are uneducated and unaware of the problems which would face a seperatist Scotland.

That most Scottish people suposedly think they benefit from the union means nothing if they do not.
You're assuming that they don't. I'm sure this is based on your recent revalation that Scotland is "is the poorest nation in Western Europe, yet the richest in natural resources". This is the typical line of thinking for most Marxists/Communists/Socialists etc who bring everything down to material wealth. Quality of life is not dictated by materialism. When you get over Marxism, you'll understand.

[Ixtab]

I'm only replying on the presumption that you wont run off like you did on the Nordic thread.I "ran off" because the thread degenerated into semantic obscurantism. Having the last word on something doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially with your contentless posts.

In the grand scheme of things, one could argue that Scottish nationalists are uneducated and unaware of the problems which would face a seperatist Scotland.One could argue that I am a figment of your imagination, just not very successfully.

This is the typical line of thinking for most Marxists/Communists/Socialists etc who bring everything down to material wealth. Quality of life is not dictated by materialism. When you get over Marxism, you'll understand.Is another example of your impotent debating technique. Well, yours is the typical line of thinking of most Idealists who reduce everything to mystical trans-historical categories that exist independently of the material world. And I can't be bothered to support the preceding statement with a jot of argumentation because, well, "When you get over your Idealism you'll understand."
Maybe now you will understand why intelligent people can't be bothered with "debating" anything with you, if it can properly be called that.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

Seriously though, what's the point in rocking the boat when everyone is happy? (or rocking the boat for a tiny minority at the expence of the majority).


Look who's talking... :rolleyes:

[Alfred_Dunhill]

SNP - Immigration quotas would harm shrinking Scotland

The Scottish National Party said today that a quota for Britain’s asylum-seeker and immigrant intake – as proposed by Conservative leader Michael Howard – would be “disastrous” for a Scottish economy reliant on regular influxes of new workers.

SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon said: "This lurch to the right by Michael Howard is a desperate panic measure by a failing Tory leader. With Scotland projected to lose half a million people over next 40 years, it's vital that we seek to attract skilled workers here in increasing numbers. The plans outlined by the Tories today would be disastrous for Scotland and our economy, and would have a similar effect on the thousands of refugees who seek refuge from terror and persecution on our shores.” She added: "Scotland should be a welcoming and tolerant country, geared to attract vital skilled workers and protect those fleeing for their lives from elsewhere.”
http://www.politics.co.uk/issueoftheday/sn...036;7633897.htm (http://www.politics.co.uk/issueoftheday/snp-immigration-quotas-would-harm-shrinking-scotland-$7633897.htm)

[Alfred_Dunhill]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40102000/jpg/_40102988_salmond203.jpg
http://images.scotsman.com/2004/09/24/ts2409salmondbashirb.jpg
Bushra Bashir, a Glasgow University student and the SNP’s 10,000th member, with the party leader, Alex Salmond

[Alfred_Dunhill]

CAIRO, December 20 (IslamOnline.net) – A leading Muslim activist has urged Scottish Muslims to use their vote power in the forthcoming general elections to serve causes important to their community and vote down those who backed the US-led invasion of Iraq.

Addressing a conference on Muslim activism, Dr. Azzam Tamimi, director of The Institute of Islamic Political Thought (IIPT), said voting for pro-war candidates runs counter to the tenets of Islam, the Sunday Herald reported on December 19.

He maintained that issues such as the occupation of Palestine, the invasion of Iraq and the so-called war on terror affect the way Muslims are treated in everyday life.

“Therefore, these international issues were really local ones for many, many Muslims. Their daily lives have been engulfed by them.”

The Time for Action conference, held at Glasgow Caledonian University, was organized by the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB) Scotland to showcase the activity that is taking place within the Muslim community in Scotland and to open the field of Islamic activism right up, according to MAB Web site.

The conference involved parallel workshops covering a wide range of topics such as political activism, children, Muslim schools, youth, charity, Muslim media, civil liberties, Da’wah to non-Muslims, self development and Islamic finance.

Welcoming Attitude

Tamimi said the Scottish National Party (SNP) was the best party in Scotland to represent Muslim interests.

He also highlighted the party’s stances on Iraq, Palestine and the so-called war on terror, saying they were the most acceptable of all the major Scottish parties.

“We have been angered by the hypocrisy of the Labour and Liberal politicians and we have been impressed by the warm and welcoming attitude of the SNP.”*

Tamimi, who met with SNP leader Alex Salmond in London, said that Muslims should also judge candidates on an individual basis.

Osama Saeed, Scottish spokesperson from the Muslim Association of Great Britain (MAB), said research done by Glasgow University had shown that support for the SNP has shot up among the Muslim population from 14% in 2001 to 49% in 2003.

“The SNP do reflect what Muslims think on many of the issues that are closest to them and as long as they continue to hold these positions then they will enjoy support among the Muslim population in Scotland,” he said.

SNP lawmaker Peter said the favourable views of his party “come as no great surprise to me at all….I’m sure that these comments represent a mainstream Islamic view.”
Read more @ http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/20...article07.shtml (http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-12/20/article07.shtml)

[Jonathan]

I "ran off" because the thread degenerated into semantic obscurantism. Having the last word on something doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially with your contentless posts.
LOL. You're so predictable. Easy to stike your nerves isn't it? The fact is that you can't admitt that you were wrong to suggest that the modern day French and Germans are descendants of the same Dark Age Franks.

One could argue that I am a figment of your imagination, just not very successfully.
That doesn't change the fact that there is no limit to the number of inacuracies of humankind - so for you to claim that Scottish people shouldn't decide their future just because they're too stupid (with you and your seperatist friend knowing what's best) is unreasonable.

Well, yours is the typical line of thinking of most Idealists who reduce everything to mystical trans-historical categories that exist independently of the material world.
I can't think of one successful socialist/communist movement that didn't have a strong nationalist flavour to it (actually, I can't think of one successful socialist/communist movement at all, but that's besides the point). Is nationalism part of the material world?

Maybe now you will understand why intelligent people can't be bothered with "debating" anything with you, if it can properly be called that.
Like who?

Back to the subject at hand - It should be up to the Scottish nation themselves as to whether or not they leave the Union. At present (for better or worse) it is their choice to remain within the Union, and I, as a nationalist, would support that right.

[Jonathan]

Look who's talking... :rolleyes:
The Unionsist are a small minority within the Irish nation.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

The Unionsist are a small minority within the Irish nation.


Don't feed us that bullshit, Mikey. They're not in any way "within the Irish nation," so your argument is totally specious.

They are British (not Irish), they live in the United Kingdom, and those who want to coerce them by violence or other means into accepting the rule of the foreign government in Dublin are the minority in their country.

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2448/irishout8bh.th.jpg (http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=irishout8bh.jpg)

[Ixtab]

for you to claim that Scottish people shouldn't decide their futureIs a monstrous lie.

(with you and your seperatist friend knowing what's best)Is rhetorical nonsense, like the rest of your post.

I can't think of one successful socialist/communist movement that didn't have a strong nationalist flavour to it Is off-topic.

It should be up to the Scottish nation themselves as to whether or not they leave the Union.Is my view as well - and I support Scottish separatism.

[Jonathan]

Don't feed us that bullshit, Mikey.
You've taken me up wrong.

They're not in any way "within the Irish nation," so your argument is totally specious.
Physically, they live in the geographical area inhabited by the Irish nation.

They are British (not Irish), they live in the United Kingdom and those who want to coerce them by violence or other means into accepting the rule of the foreign government in Dublin are the minority in their country.
True, not that this makes any difference to the facts that it is the democratic will of the Irish nation to be governed under the one sovergn entity - the Irish Republic, and that a small minority on the Island of Ireland are holding back that process.

P.S. Do not tar all Irish nationalists with the same brush as S.F.

[Jonathan]

Is a monstrous lie.
Why else did you claim that the Scottish people were uneducated as to what wuld be best for them?

Is rhetorical nonsense, like the rest of your post.
Why else would you and your friend espouse Scottish nationalism?

Is off-topic.
Is key to the fact that your main reason for supporting Scottish nationalism is for the percieved material benefits of the nation.

Is my view as well - and I support Scottish separatism.
I find this duality incompatible.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

You've taken me up wrong.

No, I've got your number.

Physically, they live in the geographical area inhabited by the Irish nation.

No, physically some Irishmen live in the geographical area inhabited by the Ulstermen.

True, not that this makes any difference to the facts that it is the democratic will of the Irish nation to be governed under the one sovergn entity - the Irish Republic,

And so they are. All 26 counties' worth.

and that a small minority on the Island of Ireland are holding back that process.

No, the Irish nation has its own Republic. No one's holding that back, nor has anyone held that back for decades now.

It is most unfortunate that the Irish nation has expansionist tendencies that drag it down to such an uncivilized level that they cannot abide another nation living on the same island.

Fucking savages...

P.S. Do not tar all Irish nationalists with the same brush as S.F.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, shits all over the place like a duck...

But we're taking this thread off topic.

[Jonathan]

No, I've got your number.
No, your attacking straw men...we've been here before...Kent?

No, physically some Irishmen live in the geographical area inhabited by the Ulstermen.
:rolleyes:

And so they are. All 26 counties worth.
It's worth 32.

No, the Irish nation has its own Republic.
Nonsense. Tell that to Gerry and Martin, or anyone living in Fermanagh, of Down, or...

It is most unfortunate that the Irish nation has expansionist tendencies that drag it down to such an uncivilized level that they cannot abide another nation living on the same island.
We're not the ones who oppossed Home Rule.

[edited] savages...
Seriously, we can't have this. If you like, I'll call on another Mod to edit it, but it's not acceptable.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, shits all over the place like a duck...
That's a very ignorant comment and a disgrace to all true nationalists.


P.S. We should keep this on topic btw.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

No, your attacking straw men...

In what way?


:rolleyes:

Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are two nations living on Hibernia? There are at least three living on Britannia.


It's worth 32.

There you go again. You just can't stand anyone else having a piece of the Hibernian pie, so you're willing to do whatever it takes to expand your Republic.

Irish "Nationalism" should more rightly be termed Irish "Imperialism."


Nonsense. Tell that to Gerry and Martin, or anyone living in Fermanagh, of Down, or...

Why don't they move to Ireland if they want to live in Ireland?


We're not the ones who oppossed Home Rule.

Duh. And those who live in the area that did haven't been ethnically cleansed like their kinsmen and friends who lived in the area that didn't.

http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/articles/Islandprotestants.gif

Seriously, we can't have this. If you like, I'll call on another Mod to edit it, but it's not acceptable.

Why not? People apply that sort of terminology here all the time to to other groups, whether it be Injuns or negroes or Americans or what have you. But when it comes to you, it's "unacceptable." :rolleyes:

This is the lowbrow forum. Suck it up and drive on.


That's a very ignorant comment and a disgrace to all true nationalists.

No, it's dead on. You all spout the same mendacious bullshit with which you were indoctrinated by your schooling. Sad thing is that you believe that crap.

[Jonathan]

In what way?
I've discussed my views about the Irish and Ulster-Scot nations being different before...You know this to be a fact. Therefore, for you to rush in and suggest that I've just gone back over my own comments is attacking a straw man.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are two nations living on Hibernia?
I do accept this fact (not that it has anything to with my views on national self-determination).

There you go again. You just can't stand anyone else having a piece of the Hibernian pie, so you're willing to do whatever it takes to expand your Republic.
That's a fairly long stretch of the imagination.

Why don't they move to Ireland if they want to live in Ireland?
Why don't the Ulster Unionists go back to the U.K....wah, wah, wah.

Duh. And those who live in the area that did haven't been ethnically cleansed like their kinsmen and friends who lived in the area that didn't.
Can you provide any evidence to back up that claim apart from population charts (keeping in mind that there have already been studies on the decline of the Anglo-Irish population which debunked the "ethnic cleansing" myth)?

Why not? People apply that sort of terminology here all the time to toher groups, whether it be Injuns or negroes or Americans or what have you. But when it comes to you, it's unacceptable.
When that kind of terminology is used, complaints are forwarded to the Mods and Supermods, who then deal with the issues as they see fit. Seeing as I am a Supermod, I need not complain to one. I just thought it would be more respectable to you, if I asked an "impartial" Mod.

This is the lowbrow forum. Suck it up and drive on.
You are in no position to make demands of me.

No, it's dead on. You all spout the same mendacious bullshit with which you were indoctrinated by your schooling. Sad thing is that you believe that crap.
Really? When have I ever supported the killing of Gerry MacCabe, for example? or claimed that the democratic mandate of the Irish people rests in the IRA Army Council?

P.S. I'm off now, I don't intend to continue this here.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

I've discussed my views about the Irish and Ulster-Scot nations being different before...You know this to be a fact. Therefore, for you to rush in and suggest that I've just gone back over my own comments is attacking a straw man.

But you did! You may have acknowledged the existance of the two separate nations when pressed on the point, but when you think no one's paying attention, you still spout the same old tired platitudes about a "minority of the Irish nation" holding back the will of the majority.

See the problem?

Why don't the Ulster Unionists go back to the U.K....wah, wah, wah.

They're already in the UK. It's just that a small minority in their country wants them to leave it and is willing to murder and maim to achieve their goals.


Can you provide any evidence to back up that claim apart from population charts (keeping in mind that there have already been studies on the decline of the Anglo-Irish population which debunked the "ethnic cleansing" myth)?


You mean aside from the fact that between 1911 and 1981, the Protestant population of the 26 counties declined by 63%, which was predicated on a number of factors, including violence, intimidation, and laws requiring that the children of mixed marriages be raised Catholic?

Sure sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Of course, if you're an Irish "nationalist," you'll find other ways of phrasing it, like "the decline of the Anglo-Irish population."

When that kind of terminology is used, complaints are forwarded to the Mods and Supermods, who then deal with the issues as they see fit. Seeing as I am a Supermod, I need not complain to one. I just thought it would be more respectable to you, if I asked an "impartial" Mod.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

It's ok to call a Black man a "nigger" around here, but if you refer to an Irishman willing to murder to expand his country's borders as a "savage," our Shane gets bent all out of shape.

You are in no position to make demands of me.

Ooooh, please don't do anything drastic! :rolleyes:


Really? When have I ever supported the killing of Gerry MacCabe, for example? or claimed that the democratic mandate of the Irish people rests in the IRA Army Council?

So there may be fine distinctions and doctrinal differences; it doesn't change the fact that the rhetoric and excuses are the same.

P.S. I'm off now, I don't intend to continue this here.

Come on, you know you'll be back. ;)

[Banat]

An interesting thing I remembered :D :

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/a/a6/180px-Amin_dada.jpg
Idi Amin Dada - the last King of Scotland

Source: www.answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/idi-amin)

He declared himself King of Scotland and appeared at a royal Saudi Arabian funeral in 1975 wearing a kilt. Idi Amin named four of his 43+ children Campbell, McLaren, McKenzie and Mackintosh.

[Hakluyt]

Shane and I went over this extensively on Mootstormfront. He is an irredentist, but does not like to admit it until the last phase of a tedious and brutally drawn out exchange of platitudes. And defend it he certainly did, eventually, his words were "proper irredentism" if I recall (that is merely another term for Irish irredentism, one can only assume). His cause, and that of most Irish nationalists, is the unification of an arbitrary geographic territory, regardless of the will to self-determination of its inhabitants; a cause which held by any other civilised people would be universally condemned

[Alfred_Dunhill]

Shane and I went over this extensively on Mootstormfront.


Yes, I recall that exchange well. I also remember how he claimed that when the IRA detonated a bomb on a busy street in the middle of the afternoon, killing 28 civilians (both Catholic and Protestant), it wasn't a case of "indiscriminate murder." :rolleyes:

I'm still not quite clear on how else one could possibly define it.

[Intrepid]

Originally Posted by JacksonInTheValley
It's ok to call a Black man a "nigger" around here, but if you refer to an Irishman willing to murder to expand his country's borders as a "savage," our Shane gets bent all out of shape.


Watch out, lest he release all of his egalitarian, teenage fury at you, Hoss.

The Irish are a protected class, don't you know.

Originally Posted by Shane
"Physically, they live in the geographical area inhabited by the Irish nation."

Funniest thing I've heard all week. Thanks, sport.


On topic: Scotland should stay as part of Britain, albeit with greater regional autonomy, IMHO.

[Hakluyt]

I'm still not quite clear on how else one could possibly define it.
It's really a fascinating mindset...

On topic: Scotland should stay as part of Britain, albeit with greater regional autonomy, IMHO.
Regional autonomy is key for all sound federations, yes. Devolution was an excellent step if somewhat mislead in its motivation.

[Billy Score]

The population of native scots is decreasing and falling as the birth rates in the area are so low. I support autonomy to preserve the scottish nation.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

The population of native scots is decreasing and falling as the birth rates in the area are so low. I support autonomy to preserve the scottish nation.


Autonomy or separation from the UK?

If you look at some of the info I provided above, you'll notice that the largest party pushing for Scottish independence (the SNP) is pushing for unrestricted immigration and welcomes "Scots of colour." :rolleyes:

[Jonathan]

See the problem?

Only your invention.

It's just that a small minority in their country wants them to leave it and is willing to murder and maim to achieve their goals.
A small minority are willing to murder and maim. The majority are not. Like I've said...don't tar all with the same brush.

Sure sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.
...in spite of the fact that the Anglo-Irish were given disproportionate representation in the Free State :rolleyes:

It's ok to call a Black man a "nigger" around here
Not when a complaint is brought to my attention.

but if you refer to an Irishman willing to murder to expand his country's borders as a "savage," our Shane gets bent all out of shape.
Suggesting to get unbiased assistance is hardly getting bent out of shape. Furthermore, your comments taring all nationalists with the one brush is simply wrong *fact*

Ooooh, please don't do anything drastic! :rolleyes:
Only someone "bent out of shape" would do that.

So there may be fine distinctions and doctrinal differences;
That's one hell of an understatement. If you were educated on the matter, you'd know what I'm talking about.

it doesn't change the fact that the rhetoric and excuses are the same.
What rhetoric? what excuses?

Come on, you know you'll be back. ;)
I'll come back to defend to personal insults that you've raised against me . . . not to discuse your warped views on Unionism.

[Jonathan]

Shane and I went over this extensively on Mootstormfront.
Another stretch of the English language.

He is an irredentist
Incorrect.

his words were "proper irredentism" if I recall
You've taken that out of context completely. I said that I had no problem with "proper irredentism" i.e. giving back land which was stolen etc. Then I went on to clarify this by explaining that the Northern Irish situation was not based on irredentism as the physical land has passed through many hands. The issue is based on Nationalism.

His cause, and that of most Irish nationalists, is the unification of an arbitrary geographic territory, regardless of the will to self-determination of its inhabitants
This is nothing more than a representation of your own Unionist tendencies.

[Jonathan]

Yes, I recall that exchange well. I also remember how he claimed that when the IRA detonated a bomb on a busy street in the middle of the afternoon, killing 28 civilians (both Catholic and Protestant), it wasn't a case of "indiscriminate murder." :rolleyes:

I'm still not quite clear on how else one could possibly define it.
Because it was not intentional.

[Jonathan]

Watch out, lest he release all of his egalitarian, teenage fury at you, Hoss.

The Irish are a protected class, don't you know.
Anything you'd like to get off your chest in particular?

[Milesian]

The sooner all the nations under the heel of "The Union" are set free from it, the better for everyone.and by that I mean English too. I whole heartedly support English Nationalism as opposed to Anti-Nationalist Unionism.
Most Scots are nationalistic to some degree. Only a small minority would not like to see Scotland independent. The only officially pro-unionist party in Scotland (The Conservatives) only recently won their first seat in Scotland for decades. The largest party is Labour, which only maintained it's position by compromsing with nationalist sentiment and granting devolution.
Scotland likely will be allowed it's nominal independence once the North Sea Oil & Gas dries up. The pro-independence SNP gained a further two seats in the last elections. In terms of land mass, they control about half of Scotland.
A few loyalist-type bigots/sell-outs would like Scotland to remain "British" (whatever that is :D), but they don't represent the average Scot. Even amongst their own ranks, there is a split feeling with many of them preffering Scotland to Britain.

[Milesian]

Autonomy or separation from the UK?

If you look at some of the info I provided above, you'll notice that the largest party pushing for Scottish independence (the SNP) is pushing for unrestricted immigration and welcomes "Scots of colour." :rolleyes:

The BNP has Jews in it , while the Loyalist UDA counts an Egyptian mongrel in it's ranks. Obviously, you oppose them too? ;)

I would say the SNP are nationalist as far as independence goes, that's about it. They are still a mainstream party which supports immigration like most others. So do the mainstream British parties, thus they are hardly a viable alternative. It makes little sense to rule out the SNP for being pro-immigration when Unionist parties are no different in that respect.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

Because it was not intentional.


"indiscriminate adjective

• done at random or without careful judgment : terrorist gunmen engaged in indiscriminate killing.

• (of a person) not using or exercising discrimination : she was indiscriminate with her affections."


Now tell me again how blowing up 28 innocent civilians, including a pregnant woman, without regard to their religious, national, or political affiliations doesn't qualify as "indiscriminate murder." :rolleyes:

Go on. Make some more excuses for those thugs.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

The BNP has Jews in it , while the Loyalist UDA counts an Egyptian mongrel in it's ranks. Obviously, you oppose them too? ;)

I would say the SNP are nationalist as far as independence goes, that's about it. They are still a mainstream party which supports immigration like most others. So do the mainstream British parties, thus they are hardly a viable alternative. It makes little sense to rule out the SNP for being pro-immigration when Unionist parties are no different in that respect.


Point taken. Still, I can't help but be amused at a party that refers to itself as a "national" party and purports to be nationalist, yet is motivated less by true nationalism than by anti-English sentiment.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

A small minority are willing to murder and maim. The majority are not. Like I've said...don't tar all with the same brush.

Yeah, a small minority are willing to get out and do the dirty work. The rest of you just cheer them on or make excuses for them.


...in spite of the fact that the Anglo-Irish were given disproportionate representation in the Free State :rolleyes:


Yeah, and meanwhile you lot were murdering farmers and burning houses in West Cork.


Not when a complaint is brought to my attention.

Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! No! It's... the PC Avenger!!!


Suggesting to get unbiased assistance is hardly getting bent out of shape. Furthermore, your comments taring all nationalists with the one brush is simply wrong *fact*


Uh... whatever you say, bud.

Only someone "bent out of shape" would do that.

You're gettin' there. ;)


That's one hell of an understatement. If you were educated on the matter, you'd know what I'm talking about.


And if you were honest on the matter, you'd admit that your goals, desires, and motivations are the same, and the only differences between you and the murderers of SF are doctrinal and methodological distinctions.

What rhetoric? what excuses?

You know, stuff like, 'The Republic of Ireland must include the entire landmass of the island or there will never be peace!' and 'Oh, the IRA didn't mean to kill all those innocent people. They just shouldn't have gotten in the way!'

That sort of thing.


I'll come back to defend to personal insults that you've raised against me . . . not to discuse your warped views on Unionism.

*Yawn*

[Milesian]

Point taken. Still, I can't help but be amused at a party that refers to itself as a "national" party

I agree. It's a bit like the BNP calling itself nationalist.
The SNP would be better calling itself a Scottish Independence party, as a pro-immigration party hardly fits the definition of a true nationalist party.

and purports to be nationalist, yet is motivated less by true nationalism than by anti-English sentiment.

I would say that there is a fair amount of Anti-English feeling, but there always has been for centuries. It's the baggage of history. Apart from some extremists though such as "Settler Watch" who actively carry out harrasment campaigns against English families buying up land and settling in Scotland, most of it is merely healthy rivalry rather than anything sinister or unpleasant. The Scots are merely a patriotic and proud people, proud of Scotland and being Scottish. England is traditionally seen as the "Auld Enemy" and not completely without reason.
But as I said, it usually takes the form of cheering on the English football teams opponents and singing Flower of Scotland with a tear in the eye rather than any nasty, overt hatred.

[Ace Rimmer]

Only a small minority would not like to see Scotland independent.

Well you certainly are better informed about the matter.
My information about average Scot is very limited, the only glimpse touch
with the situation that I have access to is football.
How do you explain Glasgow Ranges fans? Largest Scottish FC.
Union Jacks predominate there even over Scottish flag. They seem to be very pro-Crown.
I got the impression that the only ones who are anti-British and pro-independence are strong Irish minority living there(Glasgow Celtic fans).
I heard about Hibernians being the real ultra-Scots, but you don't see a lot of them in Europe so I can't talk much.
Then again it draws new interesting question which may be connected to the issue.
The highland and lowland Scots. Former being more Celtic and latter more Germanic.

[Milesian]

Well you certainly are better informed about the matter.
My information about average Scot is very limited, the only glimpse touch
with the situation that I have access to is football.

I wouldn't read too much into that.

How do you explain Glasgow Ranges fans? Largest Scottish FC.
Union Jacks predominate there even over Scottish flag. They seem to be very pro-Crown.

Depends on what you mean by largest. Celtic have a larger stadium, more season ticket holders, more fans attending every week.
You are most likely to find Unionists amongst Rangers, but most people in Scotland don't support Rangers (that is, Rangers fans don't outnumber everyone else). Even amongst their own fans, those who wear England tops are a minority. Most wave Union Jacks to annoy their arch-rival Celtic supporters. Most Ranger supporters wouldn't dream of supporting England though. Their fans are an enigma in that the least patriotic and most patriotic come from their ranks.

I got the impression that the only ones who are anti-British and pro-independence are strong Irish minority living there(Glasgow Celtic fans).

Nope. Most of the other fans are pro-Scottish. Aberdeen fans for example hate Rangers more than Celtic because they consider them English-loving traitors. The Highlanders are very strongly Scottish.

I heard about Hibernians being the real ultra-Scots, but you don't see a lot of them in Europe so I can't talk much.

Hahaha, wait till I tell some Hibees that. No, Hibernian draw from an Irish community as well, only from the east coast rather than the west. The name gives it away - Hibernian = Irish.

Then again it draws new interesting question which may be connected to the issue.
The highland and lowland Scots. Former being more Celtic and latter more Germanic.


The Germanic influence is overstated in the lowlands for political reasons.
The South - Central East coast is the only area with a significant history of Anglo settlement. The people of the Borders are very proud of being Scots and the suggestion they are Anglo or Germanic would not be well recieved, no matter the reality. Ironically, the Pro-Union Rangers fans mainly have surnames which are Celtic (Gaelic) in origin.

[Jonathan]

Go on. Make some more excuses for those thugs.
No matter how many times you say it, the fact remains - it was an accident. Until you can prove otherwise...

[Jonathan]

Yeah, a small minority are willing to get out and do the dirty work. The rest of you just cheer them on or make excuses for them.
Cheer them on? Make excuses for them? Am I a Sinn Féiner now?

Yeah, and meanwhile you lot were murdering farmers and burning houses in West Cork.
Evidence?

Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! No! It's... the PC Avenger!!!
No, it's a Supermod doing his job.:cool:

Uh... whatever you say, bud.
That's not a reply.

You're gettin' there. ;)
You wish:p

And if you were honest on the matter, you'd admit that your goals, desires, and motivations are the same, and the only differences between you and the murderers of SF are doctrinal and methodological distinctions.
Goals? Do I want a 32 county socialist republic?
Desires? As above.
Motivations? Do I harbour sectarian biterness?
There is a lot to doctrine and methodology too.

You know, stuff like, 'The Republic of Ireland must include the entire landmass of the island or there will never be peace!' and 'Oh, the IRA didn't mean to kill all those innocent people. They just shouldn't have gotten in the way!'
When have I said that they shouldn't have gotten in the way?

[Alfred_Dunhill]

No matter how many times you say it, the fact remains - it was an accident. Until you can prove otherwise...


So even if it was intended to kill someone else, even if it was an "accident," that doesn't mean that it didn't kill 28 people without regard to their status as innocent civilians, their religious affiliations, or their nationalities.

You know what that makes it?

That makes it indiscriminate murder!

Are you that fucking dense that you can't understand the meaning of those words, or are you just persisting in making excuses for those bloodthirsty bastards?

[Alfred_Dunhill]

I agree. It's a bit like the BNP calling itself nationalist.
The SNP would be better calling itself a Scottish Independence party, as a pro-immigration party hardly fits the definition of a true nationalist party.


Actually, there was a piece in the Scotsman not too long ago saying that some members of the party are pushing to have the the name changed. They apparently want to first change it to the "Scottish National Democratic Party" and eventually drop the "National" so that it's just known as the "Scottish Democratic Party."


I would say that there is a fair amount of Anti-English feeling, but there always has been for centuries. It's the baggage of history. Apart from some extremists though such as "Settler Watch" who actively carry out harrasment campaigns against English families buying up land and settling in Scotland, most of it is merely healthy rivalry rather than anything sinister or unpleasant.

Meanwhile, Arab sheiks are conducting Highland clearances.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

Cheer them on? Make excuses for them?

"It was an accident." :rolleyes:

Was it an accident when they strapped civilians into cars rigged with explosives and forced them at gunpoint to drive into army checkpoints?

Am I a Sinn Féiner now?

I don't know what you are, besides a sick kid who makes excuses for mass murderers.

Evidence?

Cork.

No, it's a Supermod doing his job.:cool:

It's a supermod getting his panties in a bunch because somebody called him a not-so-nice name. :rofl:

[Ace Rimmer]

Depends on what you mean by largest. Celtic have a larger stadium, more season ticket holders, more fans attending every week.

I meant largest Scottish (ethnic) club, Celtic fans are predominantly Irish Catholics.

You are most likely to find Unionists amongst Rangers, but most people in Scotland don't support Rangers (that is, Rangers fans don't outnumber everyone else).

Of course they don't outnumber everyone else, still they are large in numbers.

Even amongst their own fans, those who wear England tops are a minority. Most wave Union Jacks to annoy their arch-rival Celtic supporters. Most Ranger supporters wouldn't dream of supporting England though. Their fans are an enigma in that the least patriotic and most patriotic come from their ranks.
Nope. Most of the other fans are pro-Scottish. Aberdeen fans for example hate Rangers more than Celtic because they consider them English-loving traitors. The Highlanders are very strongly Scottish.

I never questioned Scottish nationalism, but thread topic is questionable,
separatist sentiment among the Scots them self, which I failed to notice, if there is one
and thus I consider(ed?) the situation in Scotland as I wrote in my post here (http://phora.org/forum/showthread.php?p=12696#post12696)
what Shane pointed out later is defined as communitarianism.


Hahaha, wait till I tell some Hibees that. No, Hibernian draw from an Irish community as well, only from the east coast rather than the west. The name gives it away - Hibernian = Irish.

My mistake.


The Germanic influence is overstated in the lowlands for political reasons.
The South - Central East coast is the only area with a significant history of Anglo settlement. The people of the Borders are very proud of being Scots and the suggestion they are Anglo or Germanic would not be well recieved, no matter the reality. Ironically, the Pro-Union Rangers fans mainly have surnames which are Celtic (Gaelic) in origin.

Okay , thanks for clearing it out, but I wasn't referring to Anglo settlement alone,
there is also history of Norse settlement in Scotland if I'm not mistaken.

[Milesian]

Actually, there was a piece in the Scotsman not too long ago saying that some members of the party are pushing to have the the name changed. They apparently want to first change it to the "Scottish National Democratic Party" and eventually drop the "National" so that it's just known as the "Scottish Democratic Party."

Probably be more truthful.

Meanwhile, Arab sheiks are conducting Highland clearances.

Picking up where the English left off with the original Highland Clearances then ;)

[Jonathan]

So even if it was intended to kill someone else, even if it was an "accident," that doesn't mean that it didn't kill 28 people without regard to their status as innocent civilians, their religious affiliations, or their nationalities.

You know what that makes it?

That makes it indiscriminate murder!

Are you that fucking dense that you can't understand the meaning of those words, or are you just persisting in making excuses for those bloodthirsty bastards?
You have an incorrect interpritation.

[Jonathan]

"It was an accident."
...is a statement of fact.

Was it an accident when they strapped civilians into cars rigged with explosives and forced them at gunpoint to drive into army checkpoints?
No. Have I ever defended this?

"I don't know what you are
Glad that you can admitt that...pitty you're so inconsistant.

"Cork.
Is a county...what else?

It's a supermod getting his panties in a bunch because somebody called him a not-so-nice name. :rofl:
Getting his panties in a twist? I'm not the one who's resorted to huge font and promfanities.

[Alfred_Dunhill]

You have an incorrect interpritation.


At least I can spell the word "interpretation." :rolleyes:

I understand that you're Irish and hence not as intelligent as most of God's other creatures, but your persistence in defending these butchers is beyond ridiculous.

[Felix the Cat]

Folks, could we keep this thread focussed on Scotland, without it constantly lurching into discussion of the Other Place

If you'd like to discuss other issues, start a new thread

[Jonathan]

At least I can spell the word "interpretation." :rolleyes:

I understand that you're Irish and hence not as intelligent as most of God's other creatures, but your persistence in defending these butchers is beyond ridiculous.
Have you not contradicted yourself here?

[Jimbo Gomez]

this ends here and now