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Anarch
10-05-2006, 03:44 PM
The Most Happy Nation? (http://www.economicprincipals.com/issues/06.08.06.html)

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David Warsh, Editor
August 6, 2006

Of all the national economic transformations that began during the 1980s -- China, Brazil, Russia, India, Mexico -- one of the most successful is one of the least attended. It was a poor little island at the beginning of the decade, riven by centuries of colonization and neglect. Twenty-five years later, a survey by the A.T. Kearney consulting firm would describe it as the most thoroughly globalized nation of all. An Economist Intelligence Unit survey would pronounce it the world's happiest nation, the single best place to live. (The United States came in thirteenth.)

I mean, of course, not Mauritius, but Ireland. For around 300 years, the average income of its citizens was barely half that of Britain. In 1500, the countries' ratio of gross domestic product per capita was 0.74; in 1600, 0.63; in 1700, 0.57; in 1850, 0.51; and, in the years from 1870 until 1913, an average of 0.56, where it more or less remained until 1970. During the next 35 years, the GDP ratio shot up from 0.74 to 1.15.

What happened to turn Ireland around? What are the lessons for other nations?

As it happens, a particularly good guide has come to hand in the form of Ireland and the Global Question, by Michael J. O'Sullivan, an economist educated at University College, Cork and Balliol College, Oxford. He taught economics at Princeton, worked as a strategist at Goldman Sachs, UBS Warburg and Commerzbank before joining State Street Global Markets in 2003. His book has just been published in the United States by Syracuse University Press (and in Ireland by Cork University Press).

Globalization has been kind to Ireland so far, O'Sullivan writes; but now significantly more demanding times lie ahead. And while the experience of the "Celtic tiger" has been held out to others as a shining example of the awards that await successful adaptation to the changing world order, he says, in fact, Ireland enjoyed many advantages in its surge to modernity that other nations do not possess.

O'Sullivan's title derives from that of a famous collection of essays and letters by Karl Marx and Frederich Engels. Not just Marx and Engels speculated on the causes of Ireland's underdevelopment, he notes, but Adam Smith and Alexis de Tocqueville as well. O'Sullivan devotes a chapter to their views.

It was in 1779 that the British Board of Trade invited Smith to comment on trade restrictions imposed on Ireland. (He blamed self-serving English merchants, and advised that their restrictions be abolished.) Tocqueville passed through in the summer of 1835, on his way to America. "What a complexity of miseries five centuries of oppression, civil disorders and religious hostility have piled on this poor people," he wrote to his father. And in the wake of the Great Famine, Marx and Engels observed, "How often have the Irish set out to achieve something and each time been crushed, politically and industriallyÉ Ireland has been stunted in her development by the English invasion and thrown centuries back." To break free, Marx counseled independence, an agricultural revolution, and protective tariffs against England.

A Malthusian crisis preoccupied Ireland for most of the nineteenth century. From barely a million persons in 1500, its population grew to 7.1 million in 1820 and peaked at 8.5 million in 1845, before abruptly declining to 6.3 million in 1852 and 5 million in 1870. More than a million people died during the Famine, but many more simply left, most of them for the United States. This occurred, of course, during history's first great wave of globalization, when economies as distant from one another as Russia, Argentina, Australia and the United States were linking up; O'Sullivan notes that Ireland's participation was limited to contributing its great out-migration. By 1921, there were only 3 million people living in Ireland.

A political crisis dominated much of the twentieth century. Inflection points in the long history of Irish rebellion are many, but the Easter Rising of 1916, when a small band of nationalists in Dublin proclaimed Irish independence, only to be quickly suppressed, stands out. By 1919 the island was embroiled in an outright war of independence. A treaty with Great Britain in 1921 created the Irish Free State as an autonomous member of the Commonwealth, but six mainly Protestant counties in the northeastern corner of the island were permitted to opt out, Northern Ireland, preferring to continue to be ruled by Britain. A civil war started immediately. It smoldered, on-and-off, for the next seventy-five years.

O'Sullivan skips over "The Troubles" to take up the underlying causes of Ireland's rapid economic development after 1970; he mostly ignores the remarkable political compromises of the 1980s and 1990s among the government, employers and trade unions as well. Several domestic factors are now acknowledged to have favored late-stage industrialization, he writes: Ireland's extensive system of universal education, the rapid expansion of credit, leadership of the Industrial Development Authority, entry into the European Community in 1973, and its flexible work force.

But a number of outside factors were working in Ireland's favor during those years as well: the globalization of capital markets, the liberalization of trade, declining interest rates after 1982, the diminution of political risk and the advent of new technologies, especially computers. (In the 1850s, secret societies formed in Ireland with a view to throwing off the yoke of British colonialism and joining the United States; in the 1990s, an avalanche of direct American investment, especially in hardware manufacturing and software, all but turned Ireland into a 51st state, economically speaking.)

This "stew of variables" is what makes Ireland a fascinating case, he writes. It also means that its lessons should be applied to other nations with utmost caution. Just because Ireland boomed doesn't mean East Germany will move quickly from relative poverty to wealth. (English is not the working language in Leipzig!) Just because the cluster of policies known as "the Washington consensus" served Ireland admirably well in its moment of truth doesn't mean the same recipe -- free trade, fiscal discipline, tax reform, streamlined regulation and lean public spending -- will work equally well for South American nations. Times change; so do external circumstances.

The excitement in Ireland today is of a different sort. Its property bubble is its most conspicuous feature. Land and house prices have risen to dizzying heights. When Ireland experiences the inevitable downside of its asset boom, the ill effects will be felt by those who are least prepared for it, says O'Sullivan -- the last to buy and the poor who are heavily indebted. The role of the state in ameliorating the side effects of globalization, inequality and risk-shifting, is very important, especially in a small country. "Irish society has been turned upside down," he writes, "rebuffing everything that made up pre-globalized Ireland (the Church and trust in institutions, to mention a couple) while embracing all that is new (consumerism, capitalism)."Large inequalities of income and wealth are rife; the social fabric is strained. Smith and Marx and Tocqueville alike observed that happiness had much to do with relative standing -- well-being measured vis-a-vis parents, neighbors, children over time.

Watching how the government performs its role as a buffer against the forces of globalization in Ireland should prove instructive for other nations, he concludes. The continued happiness of the Celtic Tiger requires that its citizens share broadly in the benefits of its newfound good fortune.

There are worse problems than the prospect of asset disinflation and, say, three percent annual growth for a year or two, of course. (Real growth has been between 4.4 to 6.2 percent every year since 2000 to 2005, and the unemployment rate has hovered around 4 percent.) The story of Ireland's economic miracle is that of a nation that suffered long and finally got what at least some of what it deserved. To his home audience, O'Sullivan quotes the writer Sean O'Faolain, who died in 1991: "The new Ireland is still learning the old lessons the hard way, like a brilliant but arrogant boy whose very brilliance acts as a dam against experience, so that he learns everything quickly -- except experience."

To the audience of other nations around the world, let the last word belong to Adam Smith. More than 225 years ago, he told the Board of Trade, "Should the Industry of Ireland, in consequence of freedom and good Government, ever equal that of England, so much the better would it be, not only for the whole British Empire, but for the particular province of England. As the wealth and industry of Lancashire does not obstruct, but promote that of Yorkshire; so the wealth and industry of Ireland, would not obstruct, but promote that of England."

Billy Score
10-05-2006, 04:33 PM
This might sound crazy but i prefer third world nation Ireland to the Celtic tiger. The new Ireland has been corroded by materialism and the same disease that is destroying the rest of Europe. My father growing up there in the 30s and 40s can attest to this. He often tells about how he'd work for a week to earn a pound or work back breaking hours daily for a few pence yet he said they still had something there, that the people were cheerful, and that in general the place was happy. This is the same nation that today is known for having a high suicide rate. People no longer take pleasure in the little things.

Anarch
10-06-2006, 12:22 AM
I wonder what Shane and Geist have to say about that.

gooddeath
10-06-2006, 01:26 AM
Most of the people that I have met in the third world have been genuinely happier than the typical Americans I know. Perhaps it was just a bias, as it’s sensible that they would try to please foreigners in order to sell things, but I don’t believe that this is the whole case. It takes very little materially to have a good life. Most of the people in the third world do not live luxuriously, but they have what they need. I don’t take “happiness studies” that show America and Europe being the happiest parts of the world with much merit. Most Westerners believe that they have reached an unprecedented level of happiness, but are in actuality empty inside.

Keystone
10-06-2006, 01:31 AM
Most of the people that I have met in the third world have been genuinely happier than the typical Americans I know. Perhaps it was just a bias, as it’s sensible that they would try to please foreigners in order to sell things, but I don’t believe that this is the whole case. It takes very little materially to have a good life. Most of the people in the third world do not live luxuriously, but they have what they need. I don’t take “happiness studies” that show America and Europe being the happiest parts of the world with much merit. Most Westerners believe that they have reached an unprecedented level of happiness, but are in actuality empty inside.
I'd rather have indoor plumbing and good medical care than not.

It makes a huge difference in the quality of life. Just because third-worlders are ignorant of these things doesn't mean they are better off.

gooddeath
10-06-2006, 01:47 AM
I'd rather have indoor plumbing and good medical care than not.

I would too, but there are other things that are more important.

gooddeath
10-06-2006, 01:52 AM
I would too, but there are other things that are more important.

And, still, there are more important things than happiness.

Anarch
10-06-2006, 04:04 AM
And, still, there are more important things than happiness.
No, there isn't. People have forgotten this. They confuse joy with happiness.

Billy Score
10-06-2006, 04:15 AM
No, there isn't. People have forgotten this. They confuse joy with happiness.
There are plenty of things better than happiness. A life of happiness alone is an incomplete life. It is how people exist today. We must be happy. If we start feeling frustrated we can't reflect on why! no we go to a psychologst or psychiatrist and pop in some anti depressants and happy thoughts come back! You're not happy? What's wrong with you ? Sorry, that isn't a real life and not how existance is supposed to be. Of course, if you started thinking such psycho thoughts like why am i still working this miserable 9-5 shithole job in some cubicle, crowded into some shitty apartment like a sardine, it wouldn't be good for the company. Its much easier for society if you are the crazy one, or the one with "problems" then to have to truely take a closer look at the kind of miserable lives humans live in urban cesspools.

Kodos
10-06-2006, 04:18 AM
This is the same nation that today is known for having a high suicide rate.

They didn't need that when they were starving to death.

Anarch
10-06-2006, 04:23 AM
There are plenty of things better than happiness. A life of happiness alone is an incomplete life. It is how people exist today. We must be happy. If we start feeling frustrated we can't reflect on why! no we go to a psychologst or psychiatrist and pop in some anti depressants and happy thoughts come back! You're not happy? What's wrong with you ? Sorry, that isn't a real life and not how existance is supposed to be. Of course, if you started thinking such psycho thoughts like why am i still working this miserable 9-5 shithole job in some cubicle, crowded into some shitty apartment like a sardine, it wouldn't be good for the company. Its much easier for society if you are the crazy one, or the one with "problems" then to have to truely take a closer look at the kind of miserable lives humans live in urban cesspools.
Happiness involves using your head to achieve your goals that serve to enhance your own life, not work your ass off, buy shit people tell you is awesome and sit around wondering why you're not happy. Happiness is not achieved by serving the ends of others, but by serving your own. Part One of the life of happiness is to exist on the integrity and independence of your own judgement. People have forgotten this bit.

Billy Score
10-06-2006, 04:24 AM
This is the same nation that today is known for having a high suicide rate.

They didn't need that when they were starving to death.
Interesting- my dad knows alot of great stories about his town in his day. And none of them were about anyone starving, not a single one. And this is the same era/area where when one man bought a "dollar dummy" pocket watch, he payed in incriments of 20 pence every 4 months and when my father's mother got him a motorcycle they did not have the money to afford the bringing it off the boat (as it was being hauled by the crane off the boat my father told the dockworker to simply toss it into the shannon).
Yet not once does he talk of not having enough to eat.

Kodos
10-06-2006, 04:25 AM
Interesting- my dad knows alot of great stories about his town in his day. And none of them were about anyone starving, not a single one.

Did any involve John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara?

Billy Score
10-06-2006, 04:26 AM
Interesting- my dad knows alot of great stories about his town in his day. And none of them were about anyone starving, not a single one.

Did any involve John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara?
no. movies!?! LOL my dad didn't even know what a toilet was until he came here (in the late 1960s).

Kodos
10-06-2006, 04:34 AM
So did they take it outside or piss out the guiness into the barroom floor?

Billy Score
10-06-2006, 04:45 AM
So did they take it outside or piss out the guiness into the barroom floor?
Go into a field, grab some leaves and do your business. that is how it worked.

gooddeath
10-06-2006, 06:59 AM
No, there isn't. People have forgotten this. They confuse joy with happiness.

Only degenerates live for "happiness". Greatness isn't achieved that way. True men live for honor. Those who care only about being happy will quickly rot and wither away. Europe is committing suicide right before our eyes, and yet no one seems to care. We are all too obsessed with consuming and being "happy". We don't have honor for our Culture or our morals or our ancestors. We only care about ourselves. Our "art" is absolute filth. We can't handle tragedies, not on stage or in real life. Everything to us has to be "funny" or "amusing" to be relevant; everything else is ignored. No one appreciates Beethoven or Vivaldi because they are not "fun" like 50 Cent and Green Day are.

I can't precisely explain WHY we shouldn't live solely for happiness. It is difficult to put into words. It is more of a gut instinct than anything. There just isn't something "right" or honorable about it.

Starr
10-06-2006, 07:14 AM
Most of the people that I have met in the third world have been genuinely happier than the typical Americans I know. Perhaps it was just a bias, as it’s sensible that they would try to please foreigners in order to sell things, but I don’t believe that this is the whole case. It takes very little materially to have a good life. Most of the people in the third world do not live luxuriously, but they have what they need. I don’t take “happiness studies” that show America and Europe being the happiest parts of the world with much merit. Most Westerners believe that they have reached an unprecedented level of happiness, but are in actuality empty inside.


They can be happy with very little because they know nothing else and people around them are in the same condition. If they had what we have for a time and adapted to modern conveniences and had them taken away it would probably be a different scenario. People here are not happy with what they do have because it is never enough and they want more and more. The next bigger and better thing. And then when they see people around them with certain goodies, they want the same thing or something even better. It is a crazy cycle. When people live in a situation where they have little and are used to that, they probably have better and stronger relationships with their families,etc. since they probably have to cooperate and work together to do certain things and to get by. I am not an extremely materialistic person, but there are certain modern conviences that I would not want to live without, that is for sure. A more civlilized society is also, of course, the mark of a higher society.

Anarch
10-06-2006, 01:48 PM
Only degenerates live for "happiness".

You don't understand what I mean by happiness.

Greatness isn't achieved that way. True men live for honor.

And what is honour for, goddeath?

Those who care only about being happy will quickly rot and wither away.

Hardly. Those who live for joy die and rot, and do not live forever, and consequently, have never really lived.

Europe is committing suicide right before our eyes, and yet no one seems to care. We are all too obsessed with consuming and being "happy".

LOL. These Europeans who are running to the cliff like lemmings are not aiming at living well.

We don't have honor for our Culture or our morals or our ancestors. We only care about ourselves. Our "art" is absolute filth. We can't handle tragedies, not on stage or in real life. Everything to us has to be "funny" or "amusing" to be relevant; everything else is ignored. No one appreciates Beethoven or Vivaldi because they are not "fun" like 50 Cent and Green Day are.

Of course. This, however, does not contradict my position.

I can't precisely explain WHY we shouldn't live solely for happiness. It is difficult to put into words. It is more of a gut instinct than anything. There just isn't something "right" or honorable about it.

There is. It's just few people are aware how to live rightly. And it is certainly not a gut instinct.

Geist
10-06-2006, 07:07 PM
The old Ireland was a shithole. Ask anybody over the age of 40. Mazdak you are talking about a country where unemployment was so high you had to go live in another country. Where the Catholic Church had a huge hold over affairs to the point of being able to cover up scandals left, right and centre. There were horrific industrial schools etc.

Nasty ass place. I am happy to live in the time when my working class parents can afford to buy homes in other countries rather than emigrate to them.

Geist
10-06-2006, 07:09 PM
Go into a field, grab some leaves and do your business. that is how it worked.

LOL when did he leave Ireland 1804?

@Weikel don't believe everything you read, and less mocking of Ireland or I'll ask you all to a good old fashioned Irish brawl :rofl:

Billy Score
10-06-2006, 10:32 PM
The old Ireland was a shithole. Ask anybody over the age of 40. Mazdak you are talking about a country where unemployment was so high you had to go live in another country. Where the Catholic Church had a huge hold over affairs to the point of being able to cover up scandals left, right and centre. There were horrific industrial schools etc.

Nasty ass place. I am happy to live in the time when my working class parents can afford to buy homes in other countries rather than emigrate to them.
Yes, out of a family of 8, .. none still live in ireland. However they visit/return constantly. I am not saying ireland was without problems mind you, but that overall the country was in a better condition socially (i'd prefer a starved out unamericanized nation to americanized eurotrash).

My father left in 196..3 i believe. either 1963 or 1968. He had lived in ireland for around 25 years.

Master shake a good old fisticuffs might solve this. :viking:

Heavens to Betsy
10-07-2006, 06:58 AM
I'd prefer a starved out unamericanized nation to americanized eurotrash.

You might think differently if you actually were starved out.

Jonathan
10-07-2006, 10:20 AM
Well, for a start, O’Sullivan is an economist and as such, the article should be treated as a description of Irish “economic well-being” (which doesn’t necessarily correlate to a higher quality of life).

This might sound crazy but i prefer third world nation Ireland to the Celtic tiger.
You weren’t around for “third world nation Ireland”…Neither was I, I suppose.

The new Ireland has been corroded by materialism and the same disease that is destroying the rest of Europe.
Without doubt. The economist David McWilliams brought out a book called “The Pope’s Children” giving a view of “modern Ireland”. I’m sure you’d be thoroughly disgusted at it Mazdak.

My father growing up there in the 30s and 40s can attest to this.
No offence to your father, but he might be looking back at the past with rose tinted glasses. I know plenty of old-timers who go on about “the good old days” and I know plenty who tell me about how “I don’t know how good I’ve got it” etc. My point is that you’ll get both views.

I get very confused when I see these surveys telling me that Irish people answer that they are very happy with their lives. I would expect the exact opposite response. Irrespective of whether Irish people are genuinely happy or not, we usually take every opportunity to complain anyway!

Anyway, what I find very interesting is that I saw a TV program over the Summer (it’s a popular, weekly, current affairs program called Prime Time) that showed the results of a questionnaire handed out in Ireland last year (which I never received myself btw) and compared them to the results of an identical questionnaire handed out in Ireland in the mid 80s.

The results were almost identical! This suggests that regardless of the huge socio-economic changes that have occurred in this country over the last few years, peoples’ levels of contentment have remained the same. The main problem I have with the questionnaire is that the people questioned in the mid 80s might not necessarily be representative of the population as a whole. The only people who could answer the questionnaire in the mid 80s were the ones who didn’t and weren’t emigrating out of the place, so they had every reason to be relatively happy!

Having said that, I think that there is a grain of truth to the results. There seems to me to be a general level of contentment that almost everyone has. You might “fall on hard times” or you might be “on the pig’s back” for a while, but eventually you go back to this original level. Like someone who’s experienced bereavement, or someone maimed in a car crash, or someone who’s won the lotto. They don’t stay depressed or ecstatic for the rest of their lives. Eventually they “get over it” and go back to the same level of contentment that they were at beforehand (not that anyone should accept this and use it as an excuse to give up the never ending struggle to better themselves!).

Just because third-worlders are ignorant of these things doesn't mean they are better off.
I’m not so sure if you’re right there. In this case, I’m inclined to agree with the “ignorance is bliss” hypothesis.

as it was being hauled by the crane off the boat my father told the dockworker to simply toss it into the Shannon
^Amazing regard for the natural environment :p

So did they take it outside or piss out the guiness into the barroom floor?
One word: Fertiliser.

Where the Catholic Church had a huge hold over affairs to the point of being able to cover up scandals left, right and centre.
I’m not sure if people regarded that as such a bad thing at the time. Most people were devout Catholics. The Catholic Church, for all its faults, is also responsible for most of the Education, Health Care, Charity etc etc that went on in this Country until lately.

There were horrific industrial schools etc.
These Industrial Schools were, for the most part, for people who were abandoned by their own families and communities in the first place. The Industrial Schools mightn’t have been a bed of roses, but they were all that was there to take in the unfortunates who had to be in them. Society at large accepted this, until lately (btw, the kind of people at the forefront of the campaign to expose the worst elements of the Industrial Schools are usually the Quasi-Fascist proponents of “secularism” and “multiculturalism” that hate the Church for other reasons. It’s interesting to note that they lay all the blame for the Industrial Schools on the Church’s doorstep. Nothing about the fact that society at large was responsible for sending children to those Industrial Schools in the first place).

Nasty ass place. I am happy to live in the time when my working class parents can afford to buy homes in other countries rather than emigrate to them.
But are you and your parents better off for this, or are they the ones . . .

who are running to the cliff like lemmings are not aiming at living well.

?

LOL when did he leave Ireland 1804?
Relieving one’s self in the field was common place in rural Ireland even in the last generation.

Geist
10-07-2006, 11:37 AM
Yes, out of a family of 8, .. none still live in ireland. However they visit/return constantly. I am not saying ireland was without problems mind you, but that overall the country was in a better condition socially (i'd prefer a starved out unamericanized nation to americanized eurotrash).

My father left in 196..3 i believe. either 1963 or 1968. He had lived in ireland for around 25 years.

Master shake a good old fisticuffs might solve this. :viking:

Perhaps, thats interesting though. Shane seems to imply that my vision of Ireland was off-key so you are probably right. I am a Dubliner, and thus by extension utterly ignorant of anything outside of Dublin :rofl:

Geist
10-07-2006, 11:39 AM
On the other stuff I defer to Shane, and register my disgust at undignified bog-lords/warriors for not having the decency of the average Dublin King, Lord, and Master as they were called by said country-peasants back in the day :rofl:

Jonathan
10-07-2006, 12:13 PM
Shane seems to imply that my vision of Ireland was off-key so you are probably right.
Not completely.

On the other stuff I defer to Shane, and register my disgust at undignified bog-lords/warriors for not having the decency of the average Dublin King, Lord, and Master as they were called by said country-peasants back in the day.
What a load of clap-trap! Country people have been looking down on Jackeens through their noses since the year of dot.:p (no offence intended, but that actually is the way that nost country people regard Dubliners!)

Geist
10-07-2006, 12:21 PM
What a load of clap-trap! Country people have been looking down on Jackeens through their noses since the year of dot.:p (no offence intended, but that actually is the way that nost country people regard Dubliners!)

Clap-trap? Is that some kind of donkey and cart phrase? Fortunately we use only the finest dictionaries and your phrase, alas, is missing. Country people think they are looking down on Dubliners when in fact that is the way we wanted them to think because they are easier to control that way :rofl:

http://www.chavscum.co.uk/4images/data/media/15/Dublin_Chavs.jpg

Examples of superior Dublin race.