Speciating Human Races ?

[Ixtab]

Accelerated speciation through race-exclusive Eugenics is an attractive idea. Any thoughts?

[Halo]

Yes. Relative in-breeding between distinct races(/sub-species) would lead to distinct species who could not breed between them.
It's what happened with homo sapiens and homo neatherdalis. And then we exterminated them.

[Ahknaton]

Could we perhaps deliberately speciate simply by rearranging a few chromosomes in such a way as to create individuals of a new species who are incapable of breeding with other humans?

[Jimbo Gomez]

NS: yes, it'd be possible, but it'd take tens of thousands of years.

Ahk: dunno

[Ixtab]

NS: yes, it'd be possible, but it'd take tens of thousands of years.Of course it would be possible. I guess I should have said "practical". I don't think it would necessarily take tens of thousands of years, though - natural speciation takes about that length of time. Here is a case of artificial speciation which took 35 generations -The best-documented creations of new species in the laboratory were performed in the late 1980s. Rice and Salt bred fruit flies, Drosophila melanogaster, using a maze with three different choices such as light/dark and wet/dry. Each generation was placed into the maze, and the groups of flies which came out of two of the eight exits were set apart to breed with each other in their respective groups. After thirty-five generations, the two groups and their offspring would not breed with each other even when doing so was their only opportunity to reproduce.[5]

Diane Dodd was also able to show allopatric speciation by reproductive isolation in Drosophila pseudoobscura fruit flies after only eight generations using different food types, starch and maltose.[6] Dodd's experiment has been easy for many others to replicate, including with other kinds of fruit flies and foods.[7]Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation)

[Arrow Cross]

Accelerated speciation through race-exclusive Eugenics is an attractive idea. Any thoughts?
An atrractive idea indeed. Even if it takes a millenium, the Fourth Reich will achieve it, I am certain. ;)

[Ambrosio Spinola]

This idea came already up on the phora quite some time ago. I would not go as far as Stan here talking about tens of thousands of years because I do believe and have faith in genetic engineering. In less than 50 years we should be able to produce the needed mutation to acomplish this.

[Ahknaton]

What would be the moral implications of this? I'm not too keen on this new race of superhumans treating the rest of us like animals. Imagine a religion where when you convert into it, you receive some kind of DNA therapy/manipulation (or your offspring do, in vitro) so that they can only interbreed with others of the same religion.

[Ixtab]

What would be the moral implications of this?We wouldn't have to worry about race preservation, for most part.

I'm not too keen on this new race of superhumans treating the rest of us like animals.How is this implied?

[Ixtab]

Imagine a religion where when you convert into it, you receive some kind of DNA therapy/manipulation (or your offspring do, in vitro) so that they can only interbreed with others of the same religion.Interesting, the very same thought occurred to me just a while ago.

[Ahknaton]

I don't see what this has to do with artificial speciation.
Given that conventional morality holds that we must grant all humans certain rights on the basis of their humanity (i.e. the fact that we are all of one species), with animals having lesser status, a new species of human might decide that since we are not of their species, we do not deserve the same moral status as them. If rights were given to those outside species on the basis of sentience and intelligence, instead of on the basis of species chauvinism it would be different of course. There's several ways it could play out, I'm just trying to stimulate discussion here.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Fruit flies are much simpler organisms than humans. Our different races evolved over almost 100.000 years, and we can still interbreed. That shows that to create a new species you'd need a looooooooong time.

[Ixtab]

Our different races evolved over almost 100.000 years, and we can still interbreed. That shows that to create a new species you'd need a looooooooong time.This only shows that geographic speciation takes a very long time. But we are talking about artificially "accelerated" speciation. If you can tell me why this process cannot be greatly accelerated through advanced forms of Eugenics like (race-specific) Genetic Engineering, I should like to know.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Not with genetic engineering Stan...and thats the whole idea.

I have no problem whatsoever about becomming "inferior" to a new improved engineered super race. Thats the whole point about being racialist, to aknowledge that qualitative differences exist and be consequent with it. If the tech would have been suficiently tested and the results proven, then I would have no problem at all in having my offsprings going through this treatment.

[Jonathan]

I have no problem whatsoever about becomming "inferior" to a new improved engineered super race.
I for one, would.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I for one, would.

If you consider yourself a racialist then you should have no problems accepting the self evident. If you believe in all this "all men are created equal" bla bla then well...you might have a point :p

[Aryan Imperium]

The science of eugenics will help us to cleanse our race of all undesireable racial and other characteristics and quickly.

[Halo]

This only shows that geographic speciation takes a very long time. But we are talking about artificially "accelerated" speciation. If you can tell me why this process cannot be greatly accelerated through advanced forms of Eugenics like (race-specific) Genetic Engineering, I should like to know.
Seriously, this speciating is just a matter of pure luck. It may take one generation to find two individuals of opposite sex who can't interbreed with other species, or it may take thousands of them.
But it will take a very long time to find two individuals of opposite sex who can't interbreed of which you would like to start a new species of europpeans.

[Jonathan]

If you consider yourself a racialist then you should have no problems accepting the self evident. If you believe in all this "all men are created equal" bla bla then well...you might have a point :p
No Ebus, I believe that I am superior :viking: :p J/K

[KingBedlam]

Your best bet for speciation at this point is to have one group of humans live on another world, separate from the rest of humanity.

Good luck with that.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Your best bet for speciation at this point is to have one group of humans live on another world, separate from the rest of humanity.

Good luck with that.

As genetic research and engineering presses forward (and there is not much to stop that either) you can bet that along with 20/20 eyesight, no genetic transmitable diseases, you will also be able to change it so that you will not be able to procreate with people with a certain gene set up. Racialism in the future might well become of the nature of the movie Gattaca where old fashioned races wont mean much anymore and it will all be about having the "latest upgrades".

[Petr]

As genetic research and engineering presses forward (and there is not much to stop that either) you can bet that along with 20/20 eyesight, no genetic transmitable diseases, you will also be able to change it so that you will not be able to procreate with people with a certain gene set up. Racialism in the future might well become of the nature of the movie Gattaca where old fashioned races wont mean much anymore and it will all be about having the "latest upgrades".
Child-like faith in genetic engineering and Hollywoodian futurism. I will rather confidently predict that if some seriously gene-scrabbled hapless babies are brought into this wold, they will be vulnerable to things that we happy normos now don't pay any attention to.

Michael Hoffman put it well:

"How I marvel at the viral chess match, observing the AIDS virus, with the very cunning of nature, deceive and checkmate every move of the brilliant scientists charged with decoding the cryptogram at the heart of pestilence. Alas, if these demented doctors should succeed in their ambition to overcome AIDS, then the next immune deficiency microbe that careens down the corridor of iatrogenic catastrophe, will do more than rot the colons of satyrs. It will constitute the plague most-potent; the annihilator of humanity.

By the same token, childhood immunizations, which eliminate diseases in infancy, bear within them the scourge of the elderly, who pay at the other end of the chronological scale, with Alzheimers and multiple sclerosis, for the prophylactic pills and injections they submitted to as children. In other words, there is no escape, not even by the means of great god Science."


Some transhumanist fanatics like John H. Campbell even acknowledge such odds but a still decide to proceed, proving themselves to be fundamentally irresponsible, bona fide mad scientists:

http://refocusing.net/miof.htm

"It does not even matter that 99% of the private evolutionary groups will erroneously direct their evolution into blind alleys, internal cancers or self-destruction. Humanity's future evolution will merely resemble that of its successful past in this respect. Evolution depends upon the fortunes of the singularly successful and not the majority."


Petr

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Child-like faith? Are you talking to a mirror Petr? Thank the Gods your brand of droolers are incapable of stopping this otherwise we would still die from scratch wounds and tooth infections.

I mean...sometimes you do look like a smart person...why all this agravation to your intellect? Your temples do not hurt when babling about the wonders of the supernatural?

[Petr]

Child-like faith? Are you talking to a mirror Petr? Thank the Gods your brand of droolers are incapable of stopping this otherwise we would still die from scratch wounds and tooth infections.
Looks like I hit a soft spot. Sorry if I blasphemed against your religion of scientism.


Petr

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I´m not used to have my views dismissed in a passing as "Child-like faith" by people who have abandoned all pretense of logic.

[cryptoracist]

Yes. Relative in-breeding between distinct races(/sub-species) would lead to distinct species who could not breed between them.
It's what happened with homo sapiens and homo neatherdalis. And then we exterminated them.
Hey, I thought we were homosapiens? At least I thought I was... I was told I was.

Now I feel like an alien again. :o

[Halo]

Hey, I thought we were homosapiens? At least I thought I was... I was told I was.

Now I feel like an alien again. :o
What is your doubt? Of course we are. But we had a common ancestor. We speciated from that ancestor creating homo sapiens and homo neatherdalis. And then homo sapiens(we are actually sapiens sapiens I believe) probably exterminated neatherdalis.

[cryptoracist]

What is your doubt? Of course we are. But we had a common ancestor. We speciated from that ancestor creating homo sapiens and homo neatherdalis. And then homo sapiens(we are actually sapiens sapiens I believe) probably exterminated neatherdalis.
Oh Ok...LOL...sorry i misunderstood.

It's good to be human again. :p

[Halo]

Oh Ok...LOL...sorry i misunderstood.

It's good to be human again. :p
No problem, I got that feeling too.

[Petr]

I´m not used to have my views dismissed in a passing as "Child-like faith" by people who have abandoned all pretense of logic.
In what way have I "abandoned logic"?


Petr

[Ahknaton]

An "evolutionary theorist" has predicted that human speciation will occur over the next 100,000 years. Sounds like speculative BS to me, but somewhat interesting nonetheless...

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6057734.stm

Human species 'may split in two'

Humanity may split into two sub-species in 100,000 years' time as predicted by HG Wells, an expert has said.

Evolutionary theorist Oliver Curry of the London School of Economics expects a genetic upper class and a dim-witted underclass to emerge.

The human race would peak in the year 3000, he said - before a decline due to dependence on technology.

People would become choosier about their sexual partners, causing humanity to divide into sub-species, he added.

The descendants of the genetic upper class would be tall, slim, healthy, attractive, intelligent, and creative and a far cry from the "underclass" humans who would have evolved into dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures.

Race 'ironed out'

But in the nearer future, humans will evolve in 1,000 years into giants between 6ft and 7ft tall, he predicts, while life-spans will have extended to 120 years, Dr Curry claims.

Physical appearance, driven by indicators of health, youth and fertility, will improve, he says, while men will exhibit symmetrical facial features, look athletic, and have squarer jaws, deeper voices and bigger penises.

Women, on the other hand, will develop lighter, smooth, hairless skin, large clear eyes, pert breasts, glossy hair, and even features, he adds. Racial differences will be ironed out by interbreeding, producing a uniform race of coffee-coloured people.

However, Dr Curry warns, in 10,000 years time humans may have paid a genetic price for relying on technology.

Spoiled by gadgets designed to meet their every need, they could come to resemble domesticated animals.

Receding chins

Social skills, such as communicating and interacting with others, could be lost, along with emotions such as love, sympathy, trust and respect. People would become less able to care for others, or perform in teams.

Physically, they would start to appear more juvenile. Chins would recede, as a result of having to chew less on processed food.

There could also be health problems caused by reliance on medicine, resulting in weak immune systems. Preventing deaths would also help to preserve the genetic defects that cause cancer.

Further into the future, sexual selection - being choosy about one's partner - was likely to create more and more genetic inequality, said Dr Curry.

The logical outcome would be two sub-species, "gracile" and "robust" humans similar to the Eloi and Morlocks foretold by HG Wells in his 1895 novel The Time Machine.

"While science and technology have the potential to create an ideal habitat for humanity over the next millennium, there is a possibility of a monumental genetic hangover over the subsequent millennia due to an over-reliance on technology reducing our natural capacity to resist disease, or our evolved ability to get along with each other, said Dr Curry.

He carried out the report for men's satellite TV channel Bravo.

[Jonathan]

An "evolutionary theorist" has predicted that human speciation will occur over the next 100,000 years. Sounds like speculative BS to me, but somewhat interesting nonetheless...
Some of it is already apparent IMO.

[Insidium]

An "evolutionary theorist" has predicted that human speciation will occur over the next 100,000 years. Sounds like speculative BS to me, but somewhat interesting nonetheless...

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6057734.stm

This article is a joke, perhaps an idea for a new scifi film. Speciation occurs as a result of isolation - primarily geographic. However, there is almost no serious geographic barriers between any human populations: they are all relatively intertwined. Furthermore, we are at the point where we modify the environment to suit us, so natural selection is fairly weak. This article is absurd on many levels.

Are a high IQ and good complexity correlated? Not really - some of the most intelligent people in the world are mediocre-looking, whereas some bombshells are dumb as dragon-shit. Furthermore, I can think of no selective pressures whatsoever that would cause the average human height to shift so drastically downward, since it has been considerably increasing for the last few hundred years.

When genetic engineering comes, I guarantee you that something as ideological as race will not be considered a criterion for modifying humans. It seems both futile and wasteful to attempt to forcefully segregate human from the gene up.

[Fade the Butcher]

Accelerated speciation through race-exclusive Eugenics is an attractive idea. Any thoughts?

It's a wonderful idea.