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View Full Version : Sam Francis' review of "Nouvelle Droite" (New Right) and its ideology


Petr
11-12-2005, 03:51 PM
Hmmm... apparently I cannot post pieces longer than 25,000 characters around here. I had to chop up this article to make room for the most relevant parts.

Annoying. :(

Anyways, nice to be here again. I just hope this place doesn't immediately crash!

:)

Petr

http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol4no3/sf-omeara.html


New Culture, New Right:
Anti-Liberalism in Postmodern Europe

by Michael O’Meara
Bloomington, Ind.: 1st Books, 2004

Reviewed by Samuel Francis

...

The French New Right has centered largely around an organization founded in 1968 called the Groupement de Recherche et d’Etudes pour la Civilisation Européenne (GRECE, or “Group for Research and Study of European Civilization”), and its major exponent has been the journalist and author Alain de Benoist. Entirely unlike the American “New Right” (or for that matter the Old Right), the French New Right is anti-Christian, anti-American, and anti-capitalist. Why then is it a “right” at all?

It is a right (a label Benoist and most of his colleagues have always hesitated to embrace) because it mounts a searching and virtually total critique and rejection of “modernity”—modern philosophy since Descartes, modern science and technology, modern materialistic values and culture, and the modern state and its tendencies toward global hegemony and technological regimentation—and it sees in Christianity the origins and underpinnings of modernity and in America and modern capitalism its most extreme representation. It affirms what O’Meara and the New Right itself describe as “traditional societies”—that is, the hierarchical, traditionalist, particularist, familistic and patriarchalist, communitarian, and usually agrarian and pagan societies that modernity destroys. “Traditional culture” as O’Meara explains in a footnote (55), “refers not to those primitive, tribal formations studied by anthropologists, but to the pre-modern formations that characterized Europe up to the 17th century—that is, to the Greek, Roman, Celtic, Germanic, and Medieval forms of the European civilizational heritage.” As the name GRECE suggests, one of the archetypal societies of this kind that the New Right idealizes is that of the ancient Greek polis itself. “Reactionary,” a term usually employed to describe portly suburban dentists or literary monarchists who wear opera capes, does not quite fit la Nouvelle Droite.

...

At the core of the New Right’s critique of modernity is a rejection of the philosophical rationalism that drives the modern mind and of its principal source, the philosopher René Descartes. “In his quest for truth—that is, epistemological truth—,” writes O’Meara,

Descartes concentrated on the length, depth, breadth, and velocity of physical objects, for these alone enabled him to quantify “the empirical unity of the world” and render nature into extensions whose measurements leant themselves to precise and predictable calculations.… His unprecedented success in reducing complex natural phenomena to simple mathematical explanations would, of course, do much to launch the career of modern science; but his success came at a steep price. Besides reducing reality to a simple expanse of matter, “understood” in abstract mathematical terms that did little to enhance man’s knowledge of his world and, in some cases, further estranged him from it, his quantifying reductionism had the effect of relegating the qualitative features of the European life—all those things associated with culture and heritage—to a secondary order of significance. (p. 58)

...

In the New Right’s critique of modernity, individualism itself is closely linked to the other features of modern society:

For once the social world becomes a collection of monadic individuals, inherent distinctions and supraindividual designations take on a secondary order of significance. What counts for liberalism is the basic zoological unit, which—ideally—is a self-contained rational being. The qualitative attributes of station, character, and breeding (not to mention race, culture, and history), whose importance has prevailed in every previous civilization, are thereby ignored, for the individual—any individual—is looked on as an “instance of humanity,” worthy, in himself, of dignity. From this “naturalistic” notion of the individual, which denies everything in man that goes beyond his zoological nature, there emerges another of liberalism’s defining doctrines—that of egalitarianism and the contention that all individuals, irrespective of their inherited or acquired qualities, are bearers of equal rights and deserving of equal treatment. (p. 65)

...

In any case, the New Right certainly did not take its rejection of modernism from the Christian or conservative right but from the movement known as “post-modernism,” associated with Michel Foucault, Jacques Derrida, et al., a movement usually involved not with the right of any sort but with the extreme left. The logical implications of post-modernism are radically relativistic and skeptical, even nihilistic, and affirm little of anything. As O’Meara writes:

Against the rational, objective, and universal claims of the modern narrative , as it applies the timeless truths of mathematical reason to man’s contingent world, they [the post-modernists] argue that the narrating subject is never autonomous, never situated at an Archimedean point beyond space and time, never able to perceive the world with detachment and certainty. Rather, representations of all kinds are entwined in sociolinguistic webs of signification that know no all-embracing truth, only their own truths, which are indistinguishable from the will to power…. All forms of human action, even (or especially) the most lofty, inevitably shatter before an elusive, polymorphous reality, represented by a now self-conscious throng of incompatible discursive traditions. This leads postmodernists to a “radical pluralism” that “deconstructs” modernist notions of truth, value, and justice in the interests of a wider field of localized representations and practices. (pp. 22-23)

Post-modernists usually apply their “deconstruction” to white, Christian, patriarchal, heterosexual Western society, arguing that its claims to truth, justice, rationality, normality, and even scientific and philosophical certainty are mere myths concocted and deployed for the purposes of buttressing the power of those who benefit from them. This position is in some respects close to those of such thinkers as Pareto and Nietzsche, at least in implication, and one that the New Right has embraced—up to a point.

The point at which the New Right breaks with conventional post-modernism is in the latter’s endorsement, as a practical matter, of the “individualistic tendencies of liberal politics. In many respects they [the post-modernists] are, in fact, simply more philosophically sophisticated liberals, although ones whose principal reference is no longer the ethnically homogeneous nation-state, but rather the rainbow world of the global market.” Given the zealous antagonism of post-modernists to any and all European identities and their passion to dissolve them, as O’Meara writes,
[I]
B and D groups, racial minorities, trance freaks, lesbian bikers, squatters, immigrants, and grunge rockers all register in their count, while Basque nationalists, Swiss Communards, and Lombard regionalists, whose communities are ancient and intergenerational, are generally suspected of being “closed” or repressive variants of the Great Narrative. (p. 23)

In fact, it is never clear in O’Meara’s account why anyone who embraces post-modernism, whether on the left or the right, would retain any logical grounds for affirming any social fabric or philosophical commitment whatsoever. Despite O’Meara’s somewhat tortured account of how the New Right tries to eat the post-modernist cake while at the same time salvaging traditional identities that post-modernism rejects, the New Right’s position appears inherently arbitrary and contradictory. “Based on a recuperation of postmodernism’s anti-liberal core,” O’Meara writes,

identitarians claim the only viable narratives for Europeans—and hence the only viable communities and identities—are those posited by the cultural, historical, and racial legacies native to their heritage. Unlike the New Left, then, whose rebellion in 1968 ostensively targeted the America-centric order founded in 1945, the New Right fights this order not in the name of a postmodernism that extends and radicalizes its underlying tenets, but for the sake of freeing Europeans from its deforming effects. (p. 26)

Nevertheless, the latent nihilism of post-modernism appears to render any such “identitarian” commitments on the part of Eurocentric New Rightists logically and ethically impossible. The preference of one side for “lesbian bikers” and of the other for “Lombard regionalists” or the ancient Greek city-state seems to be merely that—an arbitrary preference, rooted in no logical or ethical soil, though perhaps grounded in material interests, psychological peculiarities, social habits, or the will to power.

...

In any case, the New Right itself in recent years has moved away not only from its early attraction to a biological view of human nature and society but also from its opposition to multiculturalism, if not to immigration as well. The earlier position, as O’Meara explains, offered a firm rejection of multiculturalism:

In contrast to liberalism’s homogenized world of fractured cultures and peoples, New Rightists advocate a heterogenous world of homogenous peoples, each rooted in their own culture and soil. Every people, they claim, has a droit à la différence: that is, the right to pursue their destiny in accord with the organic dictates of their own identity. They see, moreover, no convincing reason why Europeans should feel obliged to abandon their millennial heritage for the sake of a dubious cosmopolitan fashion. (p. 77)

But the new position has changed course radically.

[I] Recently, however, GRECE’s opposition to multiculturalism has undergone a significant shift. Until 1998, it consistently opposed multiculturalist efforts to recognize immigrant communities as separate legal entities, for it claimed these efforts threatened the integrity of French identity. Then, rather unexpectedly, it reversed course, adopting a “communitarian” position favoring the public recognition of non-French communities—so that immigrants could be able to “keep alive the structures of their collective cultural existence.” To some, this shift constitutes nothing less than an identitarian betrayal, for others a recognition that Europe’s enemy is not the immigrant per se, but the system responsible for immigration. [/I](p. 77)

The shift was not without controversy, with New Rightists like Guillaume Faye and others rejecting it. As O’Meara comments:

When Grécistes first sloganized the droit à la différence, they sought to rebuff liberal efforts to stigmatize European identitarianism as a form of racism. At a certain point, however, its defense of cultural/ethnic difference took on a life of its own…. This eventually led to a qualified form of multiculturalism, as the GRECE reversed much of its earlier argumentation and joined the liberal chorus demanding the institutional recognition of the immigrants’ cultural identity. The problem with its metapolitics, however, did not end here, for its defense of European identity has consistently been waged on the Left’s cosmopolitan terrain—in that it fought not for the primacy of their own people, but for the application of pluralistic standards to support Europeans in the defense of their heritage…. Le droit à la différence ended up, then, parroting the ideology of liberal pluralist society and its relativist values. Needless to add, this augurs badly for the future of the GRECE’s identitarianism, for it now tacitly acknowledges the right of non-Europeans to occupy and partition European lands. (pp. 77-78)

Interestingly the same trend and its implications appear on the American hard right, as advocates of territorial secessionism and proponents of “Euro-American” identity present themselves not as the rightful heirs of the European civilization in North America but merely as one more chip in the multiculturalist mosaic demanding (or in the case of the right, begging for) recognition. One would have thought that French intellectuals intimate with Gramsci and Nietzsche would have avoided this trap.

...

The New Right’s distaste for Christianity owes little to the conventional rationalist and secularist critique associated with figures like Bertrand Russell and T.H. Huxley and far more to the ancient pagan criticisms of Christianity before its acquisition of power under Constantine. The New Right argues that Christianity, and more generally monotheism itself in the forms of Judaism and Islam, have been destructive forces that have spawned intolerance, dogmatism, and a narrow-minded dualism in the European mentality and have authorized massive persecutions, exterminations, and cultural genocide of its victims. Christianity did not emerge from the European folk tradition and identity but was adopted as a theological construct shaped by its Semitic origins and its underclass adherents and was then imposed by the state and the church, often through repression of its rivals and critics. Only through a long process of “Germanization” (O’Meara here cites James Russell’s The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity) or “Aryanization” did early Christianity become at all compatible with European identity. New Rightists share Nietzsche’s critique that Christianity represented a slave revolt against the aristocratic paganism of ancient Europe and under the sway of its otherworldly and universalist beliefs rejected “national and cultural particularisms” and promoted the destruction and amalgamization of distinct peoples. They argue that by substituting its “logos” for the ancient pagan view of nature as suffused with many divinities and supernatural beings Christianity “desacralized” nature and prepared the way for the advent of modern rationalism and the secularized depredations of modern capitalism and mass democracy.

...

New Right paganism looks to the studies of Indo-European mythology and social structure of the late Georges Dumézil and invokes “mythos” as a pagan counterpart to the Christian “logos.” The latter, as O’Meara acknowledges, may

be a more logically, analytically, and clearly developed form of thought, but cognitively it is not superior to mythos and often less suggestive and encompassing. More important still, logos—especially in its modern form—empties the world of those mythic truths that once constituted the essence of the European project. Against this “disenchantment,” which leaves the European powerless before the great challenges threatening him, a revival of Europe’s mythic heritage holds out the prospect that the true sources of his being might be recovered and the European project reborn. (p. 102)


Just as problematic as its hostility to Christianity, at least for many on the American right, is the French New Right’s outright hatred of America itself. While the New Right is surely correct that both contemporary “mainstream” (and even “conservative”) Christianity and the hegemonic forces of contemporary America are the enemies of European Man, it insists on pushing its critique of them far beyond contemporary manifestations.

In the case of America, its critique is not confined simply to the modern post–World War II managerial regime in which state, corporation, and mass culture coalesce to dominate and deracinate the world as well as traditional American culture, but extends to America as it originated and developed. In the New Right’s view, the current American regime is merely the logical and natural extension of America as it was founded and is the most complete expression of modernity itself.

The New Right’s critique of America is in fact a mirror image of what the left thinks about it or would like America to be—the “proposition country,” “creedal nation,” or “first universal nation” of liberal and neo-conservative folklore. Pointing to the millennialist and utopian language of the early Puritans in New England, the egalitarian and universalist slogans of the Declaration of Independence, and the anti-European fulminations of Mark Twain and other progressivists in American history and culture, the New Right claims that this and the political and economic system reflecting it are all that exists in America. As such, it regards this country as the main enemy of European Man and his tradition and identity (as well as of the Third World peoples whose cause the New Right increasingly seems to champion).

As an anti-Europe, the United States represents the preeminent exemplar of liberal modernity. Nowhere else, the Grécistes argue, were the Enlightenment principles—of equality, rationality, universalism, individuality, economism, and developmentalism—more thoroughly realized than in this new land “liberated from the dead hand of the European past.” The country’s constitutional Framers, it follows, were steeped in 18th-century liberalism—which “blended with the earlier ecclesiastical culture of New England” (Carl Bridenbaugh) and later with the Emersonian ideals of individualism. This led them to adopt a political system whose ideological underpinnings rested on rationalist abstractions exalting the individual rather than the history and traditions of its people. The federal state was thus conceived not as an instrument of its people’s destiny—nationality in the European sense did not exist in America—but as a cosmopolis, potentially open to all humanity.

Contrary to the contention of certain paleo-conservatives, as well as the arguments of those historians associated with the school of “civic republicanism,” this propositional notion of the American state was not the invention of latter-day Jacobins, of whom William J. Clinton and George W. Bush are the descendants, but inherent to the country’s original constitutional project. (p. 145)

The hostility of the New Right to America and its global hegemony leads it to sympathize with the Soviet Union, as O’Meara notes. “Given the nature of the existing geopolitical realities, the GRECE has long sympathized with Russia, even during the Cold War.” The sympathy was not due to any affiliation with Marxism but to the New Right’s belief that Marxism-Leninism penetrated into and deformed Russian society far less than liberal modernism permeates American and contemporary European society, that the Russians are an Indo-European people and thus share a racial and deep-cultural identity with Europe, and that their imperial identity is derived from what Rightists like to call “tellurocratic” (based on land power, like Sparta, Rome, and Germany) rather than “thalassocratic” (sea-based power, like that of Athens, Carthage, Britain, and America). Moreover, if Russia recovers economically, it would be capable of mounting political and military resistance to the global hegemony of American liberal modernism.

If European capital and know-how continue to penetrate eastward, contributing to Russia’s recovery, the ex-Soviet Union holds out the prospect of becoming a vast continental power, with an abundance of natural resources (especially oil), an immense reservoir of human talent, and a will to power. A Eurasian rapprochement (which is already occurring in numerous areas of trade, research, and development) would thus portent [sic] an empire of unparalleled immensity and a possible “staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution”…. It would not be at all “unnatural,” then, if European and Russian destinies should merge and an “Empire of the Sun” stretching across fourteen times zones, arise. (p. 193)

The New Right’s anti-Americanism is not confined to a political critique but extends also to American culture or what the critics claim passes for culture in this country. O’Meara cites a recent special issue of the New Right periodical[I] Terre et peuple[/I] that ridiculed America as the “Planet of the Clowns,” taking “particular delight in emphasizing the absurdity of homo americanus.”

From that part of the population claiming to have been abducted by aliens, to creationist accounts of human origins, to a president claiming fellatio by a student aide ought not be considered a “sexual relation,” they have had a field day. (pp. 149-50)

Any number of responses to this line of criticism may be offered, and O’Meara, though he appears to be sympathetic to much of it (recapitulating the thesis of Jewish liberal historian Louis Hartz that America is a society founded on Lockean liberalism and has neither conservative institutions nor conservative ideas), offers a response himself in his final chapter, in which he quotes paleo-conservative historian Paul Gottfried’s perfectly accurate comments that the New Right view of America is in large part simply a caricature of the reality.

First, as for America being a pure product of the Enlightenment and the triumph of modernity, that is certainly true of the system that has prevailed in this country since the New Deal era and increasingly since the Civil War. But it is arguable (indeed, it is the paleo-conservative argument) that this dominant system is by no means the only or real American identity, an identity steeped in racial and tribal realities far more than most Europeans today are. (Pace the French Rightists, “the preeminent exemplar of liberal modernity” is not America but the French Revolution.) Some New Rightists seem to perceive this, however dimly, but their knowledge of the realities of American history appears to be thin. O’Meara in a footnote notes that much of American modernism was simply the result of the triumph of the Northern base in the Civil War. “By contrast, the American South, closer to the legacy of the English gentry than New England Puritanism, was far more European in character,” and “In a characteristic expression of anti-liberal disdain for the North’s ‘anti-culture,’ Maurice Bardèche describes Sheridan’s terrorist assault on Atlanta and the subsequent crushing of Southern civilization as nothing less than a ‘barbarian victory.’” (p. 158)

Bardèche is correct, of course, except that someone should explain to him that it was not Philip Sheridan but William T. Sherman who burned Atlanta (Sheridan did enough damage in the Shenandoah Valley)—facts that any American schoolchild would know. That Bardèche (and perhaps O’Meara, who fails to correct his error) does not know them suggests that much of the New Right sneering and snorting about America is really not much more than an affected European snobbery and resentment of a more successful and more powerful political order.

Moreover, despite the rhetorical and ideological dominance of American political forms by Enlightenment rationalism, the reality of American national political and social life is rather different. Americans, both their leaders and average citizens, love to boast of their egalitarianism but almost all of them live in racially homogeneous neighborhoods, attend racially homogeneous churches, and place their children in racially homogeneous schools. I have no disposition to defend creationism any more than I would claims of alien abductions, but the New Right might try to grasp that the Americans who embrace creationism are rejecting the Darwinian naturalism that the New Right itself claims to oppose.

...

Indeed, it is difficult to see how the French New Right could mount any kind of effective opposition to modernity, given that it rejects almost every aspect of European society. The Christian view of man and society that shaped the classical conservatism that resisted the French Revolution and defended the eighteenth century dynastic states it rejects as bitterly as it does contemporary America. It also has come to affect a skepticism of the racial and sociobiological findings of recent science and of science as a whole. There appears to be no social or political group or force in modern European society with which it expresses any kinship or sympathy. It increasingly seems to ooze sympathy for the Third World invaders of Europe and the violently anti-Western states from which they come. And it regards the Soviet Union as preferable to the contemporary United States.

...

Petr
11-12-2005, 04:05 PM
Some of the comments I made on this OD thread on Francis' article:

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20621&page=4



I think Francis raised here many noteworthy points on the internal contradictions hiding behind the surface of Nouvelle Droite that its uncritical admirers usually leave untouched.


Many of the admirers of Nouvelle Droite gush over at the academic background of many of its proponents. They fail to see the downside of this - that New Right could be just a form of alienated-from-reality, self-indulgent theorizing, Right's equivalent for intellectual college-cults of Jean-Paul Sartre or Noam Chomsky.

Like Sam Francis points out, Nouvelle Droite does not actually draw its main ideology from some primordial Aryan wisdom, but rather from deconstructionist Foucaultian nihilism, then trying hypocritically to uphold some traditional values:

"In fact, it is never clear in O’Meara’s account why anyone who embraces post-modernism, whether on the left or the right, would retain any logical grounds for affirming any social fabric or philosophical commitment whatsoever. Despite O’Meara’s somewhat tortured account of how the New Right tries to eat the post-modernist cake while at the same time salvaging traditional identities that post-modernism rejects, the New Right’s position appears inherently arbitrary and contradictory."

This sort of pick-and-choose nihilism is a house built on sand, it cannot stand strong challenges.

(An example: any movement that really would like to "follow nature" and "oppose transcendental moralism" should have no qualms with cannibalism. That is very natural, chimpanzees do it all the time)


To wit: any enterprise to resurrect European culture without Christianity, nay, sometimes specifically opposing Christianity, is a doomed enterprise, a vain masquerade.

I get this so empty feeling when reading pagan New Right manifestoes - they know how to "talk the talk", use all the right phrases, but I cannot detect that joyful, spontaneous spirit that is so commonly associated with pagans. It is as if they themselves knew, deep inside, just how empty their gestures are.


PS: I also think this attempt to promote some abstract "Indo-Europeanism" as a spiritual alternative to Christianity is a mighty artificial enterprise - even in purely racial sense, Semites like Jews and Arabs (they are Caucasoids too, you know) are closer to Europeans than modern Hindus.

(Perhaps as Finno-Ugric person I am more aware of the weaknesses of "big tent Indo-Europeanism" than your average European... :rolleyes: )


PPS: IMHO, in the intellectual competition, people like Cornelius Van Til or R.J. Rushdoony could wipe the floor with these heathen. They are not that smart.

See here:

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20508&highlight=hamann


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


And here's R.J. Rushdoony's take on the fundamental ideological difference between the Biblical worldview and polytheism. The concept of equality before law is rooted in anti-nominalist monotheism.


(from The Institutes of Biblical Law, pp. 17-18)


"The consequences for law of this fact are total: it means one God, one law. The premise of polytheism is that we live in a multiverse, not a universe, that a variety of law-orders and hence lords exist, and that man cannot therefore be under one law except by virtue of imperialism. Modern legal positivism denies the existence of any absolute; it is hostile, because of its relativism, to the concept of a universe and of a universe of law. Instead, societies of men exist, each with its order of positive law, and each order of law lacks any absolute or universal validity. The law of Buddhist states is seen as valid for Buddhist nations, the law of Islam for Moslem states, the law of pragmatism for humanistic states, and the laws of Scripture for Christian states, but none, it is held, have the right to claim that their law represents truth in any absolute sense. This, of course, militates against the Biblical declaration that God's order is absolute and absolutely binding on men and nations.

"Even more, because an absolute law is denied, it means that the only universal law possible is an imperialistic law, a law imposed by force and and having no validity other than the coercive imposition. Any one world order on such a premise is of necessity imperialistic. Having denied absolute law, it cannot appeal to men to return to the true order from whence man is fallen. A relativistic, pragmatic law has no premise for missionary activity: the "truth" it proclaims is no more valid than the "truth" held by the people it seeks to unite to itself. If it holds, "we are better off one," it cannot justify this statement except by saying that "I hold it to be so," to which the resister can reply, "I hold that we are better off many." Under pragmatic law, it is held that every man is his own law-system, because there is no absolute over-arching law-order. But this means anarchy. Thus, while pragmatism or relativism (or existentialism, or positivism or any other form of this faith) holds to the absolute immunity of the individual implicitly or explicitly, in effect its only argument is the coercion of the individual, because it has no other bridge between man and man. It can speak of love, but there is no ground calling love more valid than hate. Indeed, the Marquis de Sade logically saw no crime in murder; on nominalistic, relativistic grounds, what could be wrong with murder? (5) If there is no absolute law, then every man is his own law. As the writer of Judges declared, "In those days there was no king in Israel (i.e., the people had rejected God as their king) ; every man did that which was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25; cf. 17:6; 18:1; 19;1). The law forbids man's self-law: "Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes" (Deut. 12:8), and this applies to worship as well as to moral order. The first principle of the Shema Israel is thus one God, one law. It is the declaration of an absolute moral order to which man must conform. If Israel cannot admit another god or another law-order, it cannot recognize any other religion or law-order as valid either for itself or for anyone else. Because God is one, truth is one. Other people will perish in their way, lest they turn be converted (Ps. 2:12). The basic coercion is reserved to God.

...

"Modern political orders are polytheistic imperial states, but the churches are not much better. To hold, as the churches do, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, and all others virtually, that the law was good for Israel, but that Christians and the church are under grace and without law, or under some higher, newer law, is implicit polytheism. The Joachimite heresy has deeply infected the church. According to this heresy, the first age of man was the age of the Father, the age of justice and the law. The second age was the age of the Son, of the church, and of grace. The third age is the age of the Spirit, when men become gods and their own law.


(Yup, it was this Joachim of Fiore who originally came up with the concept of "Third Reich (reign) of the spirit").


So you see, even if modern empires like USA may sometimes pay lip-service to God of the Bible, for all intents and purposes their ideology is polytheistic. They are already de facto pagan. Gary North has written a whole book on the subject:

"Political Polytheism - The Myth of Pluralism"

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/21f2_47e.htm

The true origin of that hypocritical, "totalitarian tolerance" of today is not rooted in Christianity but in imperial polytheism.


Petr

Jimbo Gomez
11-12-2005, 04:05 PM
Petr, old man, good to see you again. The place won't go down again soo, but we will be moving to a new url one of these days.

How have you been?

Petr
11-12-2005, 04:13 PM
How have you been?


Quite well, thank you for asking. I keep studying in the university, my brains are steaming with all the new information they are processing. I am praying for guidance from God on how I should spend my life serving Him in the most effective way.

I have been posting mostly on the "Original Dissent" forum:

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/index.php

Do you happen to post on any other (English-language using) forum?


Petr

Jimbo Gomez
11-12-2005, 04:16 PM
Only on tNP.

God told me in my dream how you could best serve him. He told me you should become a papist. (it can't hurt to try I reckon :p)

Glad that you're back.

Fade the Butcher
11-12-2005, 06:42 PM
In fact, it is never clear in O’Meara’s account why anyone who embraces post-modernism, whether on the left or the right, would retain any logical grounds for affirming any social fabric or philosophical commitment whatsoever. This is the fundamental problem I always had with Nietzsche and postmodernism.

Fade the Butcher
11-12-2005, 06:45 PM
The true origin of that hypocritical, "totalitarian tolerance" of today is not rooted in Christianity but in imperial polytheism.C'mon, Petr. You can't say the destruction of paganism by Theodosius was particularly tolerant; to say nothing of Arianism or the Albigensian crusade.(An example: any movement that really would like to "follow nature" and "oppose transcendental moralism" should have no qualms with cannibalism. That is very natural, chimpanzees do it all the time)This isn't true. Aristotelians don't believe man's nature is a given state.

jcs
11-12-2005, 07:02 PM
This is the fundamental problem I always had with Nietzsche and postmodernism.
...a problem I have yet to see adequately confronted. What if there is no reason for such an affirmation? What becomes of one's ideologies? Would we contort our worldview to fit in with such a revelation? Or could we face the unbearable?

Cowardice on the part of 'pick-and-choose nihilists,' cowardice on the part of anti-nihilists, cowardice all around.

But what if we could recognize the meaninglessness of any affirmations, and yet still affirm? What if the 'New Right' upholds these traditional values because they are relativistically 'better' than other values, yet absolutely false (as with all values)? All things known to man exist as nothing more than ideas, ideas lacking any true grounding, and man, too, is an idea--he cannot do otherwise than uphold false abstractions, even in the face of their un-reality.

Petr
11-12-2005, 08:13 PM
C'mon, Petr. You can't say the destruction of paganism by Theodosius was particularly tolerant; to say nothing of Arianism or the Albigensian crusade.
You are not quite getting my point. :)


To begin with, paganism (in its public form) was ready for collapse in the time of Theodosius; he didn't "destroy" it, he just gave it a little push, withdraw government funding and paganism went out with a whimper, not a bang.

Walter Burkert, one of today’s foremost experts on ancient polytheism, writes in his book Ancient Mystery Cults (pg. 53):

”The basic difference between ancient mysteries, on the one hand, and religious communities, sects, and churches of the Judeo-Christian type, on the other, is borne out by the verdict of history. Jewish, Christian, and Islamic sects have demonstrated astounding capacities of survival, even as minorities in a hostile environment. The Samaritans, split from Jewish orthodoxy, have survived in the world for about 2,400 years; the Mandaeans are about as old as Christianity; the Albigensian movement survived even the European Inquisition; countless sects have been active ever since the Reformation. Christian outposts in Ethiopia, Armenia, and Georgia are no less remarkable with this tenacious vitality.

”It was quite different with the ancient mysteries, whether those of Eleusis, Bacchus, Meter, Isis, or even Mithras, the ”invincible God.” With the imperial decrees of 391/92 A.D. prohibiting all pagan cults and with the forceful destruction of the sanctuaries, the mysteries simply and suddenly disappeared. There is not much to be said for either the Masons’ or modern witches’ claim that they are perpetuating ancient mysteries through continuous tradition. (120) Mysteries could not go underground because they lacked any lasting organization. They were not self-sufficient sects; they were intimately bound to the social system of antiquity that was to pass away. Nothing remained but a curiosity, which has in vain tried to resuscitate them.


Monotheistic religions are simply, Darwinistically speaking, more fit for survival than polytheistic cults. When pagan religions lose the backing of the state, they roll over and die more often than not. Being fundamentally establishment institutions, they don’t know how to survive in the opposition. Besides, few pagans take their religions seriously enough to consider them worth dying for.


Anyways, I was talking about hypocritical "totalitarian tolerance". Compared to present-day regimes, even medieval church was refreshingly honest: it didn't pretend to stand for any sort of tolerant, liberal society, whereas modern governments announce that they "tolerate everything except intolerance" - which was just the policy of Romans: "why, we tolerate all kinds of cults - except if you question our authority."

It is a cunning way to rule, an iron fist in a velvet glove. The minute you presented a real challenge to the imperial ideology - like rejecting the emperor cult (symbolizing the divinity of the state), a glue that held the empire together - you were persecuted, like Druids or Manicheans (or even Dionysian chaos-cults at one time) were besides Christians.


Likewise, we today have a sort of free speech, but when we start talking about really un-PC subjects that threaten the empire (USA or EU) - like suggesting racial separatism, which means racial secession by implication, or Biblical creationism, which implicates the existence of Higher Being who would not approve our secular form of life and government, then we soon find out that our public channels are effectively blocked and we are subjected to harassment.

It is this inconsistent hypocrisy that is really infuriating.



This isn't true. Aristotelians don't believe man's nature is a given state.
Just exactly why would their opinions matter?

At the Donner Party, once the situation got bad enough, people began eating each other. It takes a rare, spiritual kind of person to refuse to save himself at other peoples expense.


Petr

Petr
11-12-2005, 08:33 PM
Cowardice on the part of 'pick-and-choose nihilists,' cowardice on the part of anti-nihilists, cowardice all around.

I would agree with you that a non-religious anti-nihilist shows cowardice (or at least inconsistency), but how can you say that religious Christian is being cowardly in this issue? He has a good reason to reject nihilism and instead evaluate this world with God's written revelation and his own God-given conscience.


Btw, we could reply that it is the nihilists who are afraid to confront the truly horrifying possibility: that the God of the Bible exists, and that He is going to judge all men and send most of them to Hell.

C.S. Lewis realized, describing his own experiences an an unbeliever, why the idea of extinction may be even comforting to a fallen human being compared to the reality of Biblical God and His coming judgment:

(from "Surprised by Joy," p. 171)

"To such a craven the materialist's universe has the enormous attraction that it offered you limited liabilities. No strictly infinite disaster could overtake you in it. Death ended all. And if ever finite disasters proved greater than one wished to bear, suicide would always be possible. The horror of the Christian universe was that that it had no door marked Exit ... But, of course, what mattered most was my deep-seated hatred of authority, my monstrous individualism, my lawlessness. No word in my vocabulary expressed deeper hatred than the word Interference. But Christianity placed at the center what then seemed to me a transcendental Interferer. If its picture were true then no sort of "treaty with reality" could ever be possible. There was no region even in the innermost depth of one's soul (nay, there least of all) which one could surround with barbed wire fence and guard with a notice of No Admittance. And that was what I wanted; some area, however small, of which I could say to all other beings, "This is my business and mine only."


And yes, Charlie Darwin himself seemed to know that feeling as well:

"Surrounded as he was by unbelievers, and having soaked his mind in literature that rejected the concept of divine judgment in earth's history, Charles mused, 'I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine'.24"

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i1/slide.asp


And as for this:

What if the 'New Right' upholds these traditional values because they are relativistically 'better' than other values, yet absolutely false (as with all values)?

What if people would rather enjoy doing things that would be against values they would consider to be "relativistically better than other values"? Many, many men (and women) take perverse pleasure in doing what they know is wrong or unacceptable to the public - "the forbidden fruit" syndrome.


Petr

Fade the Butcher
11-12-2005, 09:38 PM
To begin with, paganism (in its public form) was ready for collapse in the time of Theodosius; he didn't "destroy" it, he just gave it a little push, withdraw government funding and paganism went out with a whimper, not a bang.This isn't exactly true. Constantine, for instance, had been forced to build a new Christian capital in Constantinople because of the strength of paganism amongst the Roman aristocracy. Also, Cantor says:

"Paganism found its warmest defenders among the ranks of the Roman aristocracy and the Italian and Greek academic world. In the Roman Senate and in the civil service the pagans remained strongly entrenched until the last two decades of the century. During the fourth century, pagan piety in the upper classes became more elevated, more ardent, and mroe mystical. Under the influence of Stoicism and Neoplatonism, many of the aristocratic pagans developed a kind of monotheism and abandoned their own lax morality for a more ardent and stern code of ethics that was reminiscent of the Roman aristocracy in the best days of the Republic. Paganism in the fourth century cannot, therefore, be conceived as a dying relic of the past that would have slowly disappeared on its own accord as Christianity advanced. Rather, this reinvigorated monotheistic paganism had given the old religion a new lease on life and in the West it constituted a real threat to the security of the Christian church."

Norman Cantor, he Civilization of the Middle Ages p.59Just exactly why would their opinions matter? Because you said any movement that advises us to "follow nature" would have to endorse cannibalism. In Aristotelianism, man's nature is his actual, not potential state; something he progresses toward by practicing the virtues.

Petr
11-12-2005, 10:24 PM
Constantine, for instance, had been forced to build a new Christian capital in Constantinople because of the strength of paganism amongst the Roman aristocracy.
So? It happened 2-3 generations before the time of Theodosius and as even your own source says, by then such threat no longer existed:

"In the Roman Senate and in the civil service the pagans remained strongly entrenched until the last two decades of the century."


Also, Cantor says:

"Paganism found its warmest defenders among the ranks of the Roman aristocracy and the Italian and Greek academic world. In the Roman Senate and in the civil service the pagans remained strongly entrenched until the last two decades of the century. During the fourth century, pagan piety in the upper classes became more elevated, more ardent, and mroe mystical. Under the influence of Stoicism and Neoplatonism, many of the aristocratic pagans developed a kind of monotheism and abandoned their own lax morality for a more ardent and stern code of ethics that was reminiscent of the Roman aristocracy in the best days of the Republic.

Well, of course there was some resistance. But it was a quite elitist phenomenon, detached from masses, and especially after Julian the Apostate, it was a very half-hearted effort, almost mere impotent snobbery.

Nothing shows better its inherent weakness that Julian himself was forced to copy ideas from Christianity, like instituting such very un-pagan things like preaching philosophers to temples to explain the allegorical meaning of myths to the public - Stoic Seneca had already complained that compared to pagan masses, monotheistic Jews were inherently more literate people who knew the basis for their religion, instead of just practising its rites by rote:

”They at least know the reasons for their ceremonies; but the mass of the rest of mankind know not why they do what they do”

(quoted in Augustine’s ”Civitate Dei”)


Julian also had to copy the Christian model of social networking, as he himself explained in his famous letter to Arsacius, the high priest of Galatian province:

"So what is the problem? Do we think this is enough? Do we not realize that what has really contributed to the growth of atheism (i.e., Christianity) is their generosity towards strangers, their care for the burial of the dead and the dignified way of life that they feign? I think we ought genuinely to be making each of these areas our business ... For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew has to beg and the ungodly Galilaeans support their needy and ours, our people are seen to lack assistance from us."


Petr

jcs
11-13-2005, 04:45 AM
I would agree with you that a non-religious anti-nihilist shows cowardice (or at least inconsistency), but how can you say that religious Christian is being cowardly in this issue? He has a good reason to reject nihilism and instead evaluate this world with God's written revelation and his own God-given conscience.
No Christian who has not found God through great pains and tribulations has any knowledge of God. I admire those mystics who discovered God after intense struggle with the idea, who gained understanding only after working toward it; but were I to embrace the Book and call myself a Christian, I would gain nothing but a comforting hope and blindly delusional faith. Most Christians are misunderstanding human filth, but unlike the rest of humanity (which is mostly human filth), they feel a righteous sense of entitlement. I include here your religious Christians, and perhaps even you.

"Atheism, true 'existential' atheism burning with hatred of a seemingly unjust or unmerciful God, is a spiritual state; it is a real attempt to grapple with the true God Whose ways are so inexplicable even to the most believing of men, and it has more than once been known to end in a blinding vision of Him Whom the real atheist truly seeks. It is Christ Who works in these souls. The Antichrist is not to be found primarily in these great deniers, but in the small affirmers, whose Christ is only on the lips. Nietzsche, in calling himself Antichrist, proved thereby his intense hunger for Christ..."
-Father Eugene Seraphim Rose

Recall also that it was only after Christ suffered upon the cross, only after he was broken, only once he looked up to God in Heaven and asked, "Why have you forsaken me?"--it was only at this lowest-of-lows that he found God.

Recall also that Nietzsche--who would never have become Christian (contrary to Rose's possible implication), but if God and Christ, His Word, are universal, could be said to be the highest Christian, for he was a man of great spirit--said through Zarathustra that man must 'go under.'

Recall the common saying amongs nihilists, a bastardization of Dostoievski: "Nothing exists, all is permitted."

Recall that the above nihilist saying is a great teaching of certain Islamic esoteric sects (see one of the early chapters of Guenon's Multiple States of Being; I'm too lazy to dig around for the book for more specifics).

Recall also Fight Club: "It is only after you have lost everything..." ;)

But I must also ask: what sort of man looks toward consequences when judging his actions? Should he not will toward an action based upon his inner compass, his own impulses?
Thus, should man strive to be good because of a reward of heaven? or should he simply be good? one would think that the man seeking a reward could never be good...
Should man strive to be closer to God because of the bliss some mystics teach accompanies this closeness? or should he simply strive to be closer to God? one would think that the man seeking bliss would never find God...
--Now, how could man find God in his lowest-of-lows if he always held on to some great hope? How could you reach this bottom unless you had done away with all comforts?

I don't know if I'll find God. Maybe there is no God. Or maybe I'll dislike what I find. Maybe I am simply incapable of finding this God. Maybe he doesn't want me to find Him. Who knows? All I know is that any cowardly clinging to hope or pursuit of anything because of such hope must be abandoned, even if it will destroy me--because my nihilism knows no better.

we could reply that it is the nihilists who are afraid to confront the truly horrifying possibility: that the God of the Bible exists, and that He is going to judge all men and send most of them to Hell.
There is no afterlife, at least not in the sense you use the term 'Hell.' That is another comfort that must be abandoned. Hell is a state of mind. Perhaps it is Energy contrasted to the Reason of Heaven? But I attended a different wedding than Blake: my Hell is a torment I experience only when in the bliss of Heaven.
Do you know what Rapture is, Petr? I have seen it, though probably just a glimpse, for to fully experience it would be too much to bear. I have not fallen low enough to fully know Rapture--which is Ennui, the fullness of nothingness.
Rapture is God. God is all things, the creator and grounding of reality, the unity and oneness of the world. Now, the height of negative theology: there is no God.
O, wonderful Hell!

describing his own experiences an an unbeliever, why the idea of extinction may be even comforting to a fallen human being compared to the reality of Biblical God and His coming judgment
Is death an ending? How do I define what is real from my perspective?--that which I may experience. How do I know my past was real?--from my scars, from my experiences, or more accurately, my memories of those experiences. Have you ever felt suicidal? Have you ever confronted depression? I've entertained the most saddening of thoughts, and in my despair, contemplated 'ending it all.' But could it end? How could I come to know my own death? I cannot die. God, master of Irony that He is, mocks me, and I mock myself.
How comedic life seems!

What if people would rather enjoy doing things that would be against values they would consider to be "relativistically better than other values"? Many, many men (and women) take perverse pleasure in doing what they know is wrong or unacceptable to the public - "the forbidden fruit" syndrome.
How many find the opposition to values they consider absolutes an even more delicious fruit?

Petr
11-29-2005, 08:01 PM
The true origin of that hypocritical, "totalitarian tolerance" of today is not rooted in Christianity but in imperial polytheism.

And here's more proof on the connection between pagan imperialism and the origin of civil religion/religion of civility: in the 3rd century BC, Indian Buddhist ruler Ashoka propounding universal tolerance for his multicultural empire:


" Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics and the householders of all religions, and he honors them with gifts and honors of various kinds.[22] But Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values this -- that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions.[23] Growth in essentials can be done in different ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that is, not praising one's own religion, or condemning the religion of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism, it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other religions for this reason. By so doing, one's own religion benefits, and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one's own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good.[24] One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions."

http://www.blackmask.com/books29c/ashokadex.htm


Doesn't it just make you want to sing Kumbayah?


Petr

Kodos
11-30-2005, 03:14 AM
To begin with, paganism (in its public form) was ready for collapse in the time of Theodosius; he didn't "destroy" it, he just gave it a little push, withdraw government funding and paganism went out with a whimper, not a bang.

Didn't the public funding end with Constantius II( yes renewed by Julian and Valentinian didn't cut it off completely)... Theodosius ordered the destruction or conversion to churches of all pagan temples in the Empire.