Slovenia - Croatia relationship (reply to Watzy)

[SlovenianNationalist]

I'm opposed to EU and of course I'm also opposed to idea that Croatia enters EU. Croatia in EU would probably mean Croatian immigration to my country and we already have much problems with "southerners" (Serbs, Bosniaks) here. :) I have nothing against Croats, though.

[Watzy]

I'm opposed to EU and of course I'm also opposed to idea that Croatia enters EU. Croatia in EU would probably mean Croatian immigration to my country and we already have much problems with "southerners" (Serbs, Bosniaks) here. :) I have nothing against Croats, though.

What does the Slovene Croatophobia has to do with this??
Slovene Yugos are treated as undesired minority in Croatia as well, giving frequent headaches to Croatian police and citizens, but this belongs into another topic.

I advise you as to terminate further debate since this topic is about US-Croatia relations, not immigration into your pissant state. Take it as the official warning and do not bother to reply, at least not in this thread.

[SlovenianNationalist]

I don't want to be off-topic in the other thread so I will reply to Watzy here.

What does the Slovene Croatophobia has to do with this??
Slovene Yugos are treated as undesired minority in Croatia as well, giving frequent headaches to Croatian police and citizens, but this belongs into another topic.

First of all, I'm not a "Croatophobe" or anything, I was just pointing out that I don't want Croatia in EU, because the result would probably be Croat immigration in Slovenia. I have nothing against Croats, I even respect you as a friendly Catholic nation (our only neighbouring nation that didn't cause problems to Slovenians in the past :)), however I want Slovenia to remain Slovenian. You started debate about Croatia and EU, I gave you my main reason why I don't want Croatia in EU.

Secondly, I don't know about what "Slovene Yugos" you are talking about? Afaik there are hardly any Slovenians living in Croatia, I don't know about what headaches your are talking about?

[Zrinski]

I was just pointing out that I don't want Croatia in EU, because the result would probably be Croat immigration in Slovenia.

What on Earth are you taling about?!?! :rofl:

[SlovenianNationalist]

What on Earth are you taling about?!?! :rofl:

Why do you think that would not happen? There are some Croats living in Slovenia already, on the other hand some Slovenians immigrated to Germany after we became members of EU.

[Zrinski]

First of all you are not that much more developed than us...yes you have to a certain degree higher standard but some regions in Croatia are on par with Slovenia and if people from Croatia will move anywhere it will be in other regions of Croatia such as Istria and Zagreb/Croatia proper.

Besides why would someone emmigrate to Slovenia when he can go to Italy, Austria, Germany, Australia, Canada? Don't be ridiculous...

And finally most Croats (90%) in Slovenia are autchtonous...you cannot compare this with Serbs or Bosniaks. The other 10% are those who worked in Slovenia during Yugoslavia so they decided to stay...these are also mainly in mixed marraiges with Slovenians. So your comparison really doesn't stand.

[SlovenianNationalist]

First of all you are not that much more developed than us...yes you have to a certain degree higher standard but some regions in Croatia are on par with Slovenia and if people from Croatia will move anywhere it will be in other regions of Croatia such as Istria and Zagreb/Croatia proper.

Besides why would someone emmigrate to Slovenia when he can go to Italy, Austria, Germany, Australia, Canada? Don't be ridiculous...

Well, Germany, Austria and Italy have more strict immigration control, while our country welcomes almoust anyone.

And finally most Croats (90%) in Slovenia are autchtonous...you cannot compare this with Serbs or Bosniaks. The other 10% are those who worked in Slovenia during Yugoslavia so they decided to stay.

I'd say about 50% of them are autchtonous, others moved to Slovenia at the time of Yugoslavia or after we got liberated.

Year 51 - around 17,000 Croats, 91 - around 50,000 Croats (source (http://www.stat.si/popis2002/si/rezultati/rezultati_red.asp?ter=SLO&st=7))

[Zrinski]

Well, Germany, Austria and Italy have more strict immigration control, while our country welcomes almoust anyone.

People who want to emmigrate from Croatia to countries Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland....will eventually achieve their goals...no matter how strickt policies they have.

I'd say about 50% of them are autchtonous, others moved to Slovenia at the time of Yugoslavia or after we got liberated.

Year 51 - around 17,000 Croats, 91 - around 50,000 Croats (source (http://www.stat.si/popis2002/si/rezultati/rezultati_red.asp?ter=SLO&st=7))

I'd disagree with that...especially on the claim they moved in after you seceded, as you can see for yourself the number has reduced itself from 1991 to 2002. The problem here is that until recently your country greatly denied Croats the status of the autochtonous people...and still does to a great extent. You cannot compare Croats in Slovenia with Serbs or Bosniaks.

Btw. I could also go on and claim the same as there are Slovenes living in Croatia too. And not that small number of them actually.

[SlovenianNationalist]

People who want to emmigrate from Croatia to countries Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland....will eventually achieve their goals...no matter how strickt policies they have.

Indeed, but being a member of EU, it would be easier for them to immigrate to Slovenia either. I'm opposed to EU and the best way would be if Slovenia goes out of that anti-nationalist union..

I'd disagree with that...especially on the claim they moved in after you seceded, as you can see for yourself the number has reduced itself from 1991 to 2002. The problem here is that until recently your country greatly denied Croats the status of the autochtonous people...and still does to a great extent. You cannot compare Croats in Slovenia with Serbs or Bosniaks.

I don't compare them, they don't cause as much problems as Serbs and Bosniaks, however I don't think 90% of them are autochtonous.. You see the difference -- 1951 - 17,000 Croats, 2002 - 37,000. That's not because our contry denied them any kind of rights, because in '51 we were part of Yugoslavia.

Btw. I could also go on and claim the same as there are Slovenes living in Croatia too. And not that small number of them actually.

How many of them are there in Croatia?

[Zrinski]

Indeed, but being a member of EU, it would be easier for them to immigrate to Slovenia either. I'm opposed to EU and the best way would be if Slovenia goes out of that anti-nationalist union..

As I already said there is no reason for anyone to migrate to Slovenia. If anywhere they will migrate to other parts of Croatia or other countires such as Australia, Italy, Germany, Canada, etc.

I don't compare them, they don't cause as much problems as Serbs and Bosniaks, however I don't think 90% of them are autochtonous.. You see the difference -- 1951 - 17,000 Croats, 2002 - 37,000. That's not because our contry denied them any kind of rights, because in '51 we were part of Yugoslavia.

They don't cause problems at all. I do think that 90% of them autchtonous because increase from almost 18,000 in 1951 to 35,500 in 2002 is realistic...we are talking about 50 year period. The decrease from 1991. to 2002. can be explain by the people who worked in Slovenia during Yugoslavia...same goes vice-versa for(decrease of Slovenians in Croatia from 1991. to 2001.).

How many of them are there in Croatia?

A bit over 13,000 which is a decrease from a bit over 22,000 in 1991. For comparison in 1953. there were 37,000 Slovenians in Croatia as opposed to 18,000 Croats in Slovenia.

Anyway your remarks are ridiculous...in short. There will be no "mass emmigration" to Slovenia as Slovenia is not interesting to people who will emmigriate due to similar standard in certain Croatian regions such as Istria and Rijeka region and also Zagreb/Croatia proper region.

You should watch out for Ukrainians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. who have way lower standard than both Slovenia and Croatia. We in Croatia already are starting to have some difficulties with cheap labour for shipyards imported from Bulgaria and Romania.

[SlovenianNationalist]

About 13,000 which is a decrease from a bit over 22,000 in 1991. For comparison in 1953. there were 37,000 Slovenians in Croatia as opposed 18,000 Croats in Slovenia.

That's because Slovenians once lived in Istra. They are indeed autochtonous.

Anyway your remarks are ridiculous...in short. There will be no mass emmigration to Slovenia as Slovenia is not interesting to people who will emmigriate due to similar standard in certain Croatian regions such as Istria and Rijeka region and also Zagreb/Croatia proper region.

I hope you are right. Although I know quite many Croat immigrants here, most of them seem to be normal, while some of them are anti-Slovenians. One of them doesn't even have Slovenian citizenship, but lives here. :D

You should watch out for Ukrainians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. who have way lower standard than both Slovenia and Croatia.

There would be no more Serbian immigration here probably, Serbs came here in 80is an later in 90is, however Romanians and Ukranians are a problem. I know an Ukranian psycho from our school, I don't know if all Ukranians are like him, but I don't want them in my country, that's sure.

[Zrinski]

I hope you are right. Although I know quite many Croat immigrants here, most of them seem to be normal, while some of them are anti-Slovenians. One of them doesn't even have Slovenian citizenship, but lives here. :D

Let me just say that I have never in my life heard from anyone with the intention of emigrating to Slovenia...and in fact there is no need. Why would I move to Slovenia when I can move to Varazdin or Zagreb, be payed as much as I would be in Slovenia (maybe even more) and still stay in Croatia? Besides your standard isn't that much higher than ours...don't get cocky...

There would be no more Serbian immigration here probably, Serbs came here in 80is an later in 90is, however Romanians and Ukranians are a problem. I know an Ukranian psycho from our school, I don't know if all Ukranians are like him, but I don't want them in my country, that's sure.

As I said Ukrainians, Romanians and Bulgarians are the main threat...for both Croatia and Slovenia. Though truth to be said they are Slavic(Bulgarians and Ukrainians) so they are much more suitable for assimilation and most do assimilate....if they indeed want to stay here, most just come to work here though.

As for Istria Slovenians still live there....Istria has been divided so that parts which in majority Slovenian are today in Slovenia and those Croatian in Croatia.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Let me just say that I have never in my life heard from anyone with the intention of emigrating to Slovenia...and in fact there is no need. Why would I move to Slovenia when I can move to Varazdin or Zagreb, be payed as much as I would be in Slovenia (maybe even more) and still stay in Croatia? Besides you're standard isn't that much higher than ours...don't get cocky...

Well, maybe I was wrong with my speculations, I hope so.

As I said Ukrainians, Romanians and Bulgarians are the main threat...for both Croatia and Slovenia. Though truth to be said they are Slavic(Bulgarians and Ukrainians) so they much more suitable for assimilation and most do assimiate.

I'm against assimilation of immigrants. I consider membership of my nation as a birth-right, thus Ukranian immigrant can never be Slovenian, even if he assimilates. 'Patriots' here who support assimilation think that solution for immigration problem is to integrate them in our society and to assimilate them (ie. they accept Slovenian identity, they are Slovenians).

Regards

[Zrinski]

Well, maybe I was wrong with my speculations, I hope so.

You were and you are.

I'm against assimilation of immigrants. I consider membership of my nation as a birth-right, thus Ukranian immigrant can never be Slovenian, even if he assimilates. 'Patriots' here who support assimilation think that solution for immigration problem is to integrate them in our society and to assimilate them (ie. they accept Slovenian identity, they are Slovenians).

You know this is rather ridiculous thing to say. Ask yourself how many of Slovenian poets, politicians, patriots, people from Slovenian history on overall have some other non-Slovenian origin...you would count them in dozens. Same goes for any nation. Belonging to one nation isn't something you could call your "birth-right".

Let me just give you few examples (just out of my head):
Napoleon - French patriot and possibly their greatest military leader save Charlemagne, Italian by origin;
Prince Eugene of Savoy - Austrian general and patriot, one of greatest Austrian generals, French by origin;
Tolkien - English writer, professor at Oxford University and patriot with fetish of everything Anglo-Saxon, German by origin;

I could also number you quite a few Croats also who were staunch patriots and who were proud Croats and advocates of Croatian people such as:
Josip Juraj Strossmayer - German by origin;
Lavoslav Ružička - Czech by origin;
Ljudevit Gaj - French by origin;

...etc, etc.

So you see it is not something you get by your "birth-right", it depends how you feel. Ultimately the place you were born at can and will most likely effect this feeling of yours....this is called assimilation. Personally I don't have nothing against that kind of inter-European assimilation because that is a natural process which had been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. Thats why f.e. the second most common surname in Slovenia is Horvat(Croat). ;)

[SlovenianNationalist]

You know this is rather ridiculous thing to say. Ask yourself how many of Slovenian poets, politicians, patriots, people from Slovenian history on overall have some other non-Slovenian origin...you would count them in dozens. Same goes for any nation. Belonging to one nation isn't something you could call your "birth-right".

Some famous Slovenians really had some non-Slovenian origins, but it was mostly from close (neighbouring) nations like Italians, Germans, Croats and Hungarians, even I have some Hungarian blood -- my grandfather was from half-Hungarian/half-Slovenian Protestant family, however that doesn't mean that ancestry (blood) doesn't matter. That's logical because we are small nation.

I'd say that Slovenian must have mostly Slovenian ancestry, looking few generations back. Your profile says you are 'ethnic nationalist'. You see, the difference between ethnic nationalist and for example cultural nationalist is that ethnic nationalist does not view a nation as solely a cultural grouping, but views on nation as an ethnicity. Membership of nation requires some descent from previous generations of this nation.

By cultural definition of a nation, member of a nation can be any person on this world, he just needs to assimilate. That's why I don't want Ukranians and other foreigners to assimilate in our society.

Thats why f.e. the second most common surname in Slovenia is Horvat(Croat). ;)

I don't really care about surnames. One of the greatest Slovenian patriots had German surname -- Maister. He was Slovenian though, no doubt about it.

[Zrinski]

Your profile says you are 'ethnic nationalist'. You see, the difference between ethnic nationalist and for example cultural nationalist is that ethnic nationalist does not view a nation as solely a cultural grouping, but views on nation as an ethnicity. Membership of nation requires some descent from previous generations of this nation.

I am sorry but I disagree with you. As you can see from my examples in my previous post that is not the case.

I don't really care about surnames. One of the greatest Slovenian patriots had German surname -- Maister. He was Slovenian though, no doubt about it.

That is the whole point...the man was german by descent but he was a Slovenian and others saw him as Slovenian as well. It really doesn't matter what origin you are of as long as you are Europid/European.

[SlovenianNationalist]

That is the whole point...the man was german by descent but he was a Slovenian and others saw him as Slovenian as well. It really doesn't matter what origin you are of as long as you are Europid/European.

What does being Europid got to do with being a member of one particular nation? I mean, I would not consider any Europid as Slovenian, if they assimilate. As I said, I wouldn't see a problem if someone has some ancestry from neighbouring nations, but 'European' or even 'Europid' is.. I don't know which English word I could use for this, maybe 'comprehensive' would be the right word (obsežen in Slovene, can't remember the Croatian word either). 'European' definition includes immigrants from south and east of Europe which generally show no respect for our country.

It's hard to define who is a member of a particular nation and who is not, but I believe that ancestry plays some part too.

[Zrinski]

What does being Europid got to do with being a member of one particular nation?

Can a man of Chinese ancestry be considered member of any european nation?

It's hard to define who is a member of a particular nation and who is not, but I believe that ancestry plays some part too.

In inter-European relations...hardly.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Can a man of Chinese ancestry be considered member of any european nation?

Of course not, but so can't a full-blooded 100% Ukranian be considered member of my nation, although he is Europid.

[Zrinski]

Of course not, but so can't a full-blooded 100% Ukranian be considered member of my nation, although he is Europid.

Obviously not....since he is already Ukranian. He can however be Slovenian of Ukrainian descent.

[SlovenianNationalist]

He can however be Slovenian of Ukrainian descent.

I don't think such thing is possible. European nations are ethnicities, it's not like American cultural definition of a 'nation', where you indeed have "Americans of Irish-German (for example) descent".

[Zrinski]

I don't think such thing is possible. European nations are ethnicities, it's not like American cultural definition of a 'nation', where you indeed have "Americans of Irish-German (for example) descent".

I've just showed you in previous posts that it is possible and is in fact something that has been going on for thousands of years in Europe. The ethnicity or nationality (in some cases they are the same especially in Europe) is a rather recent invention. Also United States are totally wrong example.

[SlovenianNationalist]

I already said what I have to say about this issue and I don't have much time to continue this debate.

Have a nice day.

[Zrinski]

Perhaps it would be better if you just admitted that you are just simply wrong.
Regards.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Perhaps it would be better if you just admitted that you are just simply wrong.

No, I still believe that Slovenian must have mostly Slovenian ancestry.

Even our national anthem says that Slovenian girls should not marry with non-Slovenians. :)

Ljubezni sladke spone
Naj vežejo vas na naš rod,
V njim sklepajte zakone
De nikdar več naprej od tod
Hčer, sinov
Zarod nov
Ne bo pajdaš sovražnikov!

You probably undestand this words?

Ohranimo slovensko kri!

[Watzy]

First of all, I'm not a "Croatophobe" or anything, I was just pointing out that I don't want Croatia in EU, because the result would probably be Croat immigration in Slovenia.

So you think EU provides some sort of special protection to Slovenia against immigration of Croats? LOL

Guess what...

Croats do not even need a passport to enter Slovenia, only personal ID card is required. So why do you think Croatia entering EU may result with some sort of mass migration of into Slovenia which is not happening already? Get a life! Why would someone consider to migrate into a another country where life standard is not drastically better than here, only to learn another tongue? :confused:

I have nothing against Croats, I even respect you as a friendly Catholic nation (our only neighbouring nation that didn't cause problems to Slovenians in the past :)), however I want Slovenia to remain Slovenian.

You started debate about Croatia and EU, I gave you my main reason why I don't want Croatia in EU.

This debate is in your head. I started a thread about Croatia-US relations and did not even mentioned EU or Slovenia. I even stated at one point in that thread my opposition to Croatia's EU entrance and support to the entrance into NATO. You bumped into my thread nevertheless.

Secondly, I don't know about what "Slovene Yugos" you are talking about? Afaik there are hardly any Slovenians living in Croatia, I don't know about what headaches your are talking about?

I was referring to small but loud minority of Slovenes in border areas agitating for annexing Croat areas into Slovenia. They are smallnumbered, but are a pain in the ass. Not to mention Slovene radicals desecrating Croatian borders by trespassing, Slovene fisherman crossing borders ect. ect.

All these people could be efficiently disciplined without Croatia's pro-EU policy.

You must understand I like Slovenes very much and have nothing against them, but that doesn't mean I would have them as neighbors, how much less as rebels and trespassers. This is one of the major reasons why I object to Croata's EU bid. Without it Croatian police wouldn't need to play the role of nice guys toward Slovene rebels and would be able kick the living shit out of Mr. Josko Joras or infact any Slovene offending hospitality of Croatia.

[SlovenianNationalist]

So you think EU provides some sort of special protection to Slovenia against immigration of Croats? LOL

No it doesn't. That's a problem.

I was referring to small but loud minority of Slovenes in border areas agitating for annexing Croat areas into Slovenia. They are smallnumbered, but are a pain in the ass. Not to mention Slovene radicals desecrating Croatian borders by trespassing, Slovene fisherman crossing borders ect. ect.

Never heard of your imaginary Slovenian fishermen who are crossing borders, or Slovenian trespassers (you even call them radicals) etc.

You must understand I like Slovenes very much and have nothing against them, but that doesn't mean I would have them as neighbors, how much less as rebels and trespassers.

Also I have nothing against Croats either, remember we're both Catholic nations and unlike other Slovenian neighbours (Germans, Italians and Hungarians) you never made any real trouble. I don't really see a problem with Croatia.

Without it Croatian police wouldn't need to play the role of nice guys toward Slovene rebels and would be able kick the living shit out of Mr. Josko Joras or infact any Slovene offending hospitality of Croatia.

What's the problem with Joško Joras? I mean, some Slovenian patriots even named him 'Slovenian hero of southern border'. :D

He has my respect for being a patriot, that's it. Anyway, Croatian police doesn't have authority over Joras, as he's living in Republic Slovenia, so only Slovenian police can 'kick the shit out of him'.

[Watzy]

That's because Slovenians once lived in Istra. They are indeed autochtonous.

Nevertheless they are contributing to the multinational character of this region and this is something I resent. There is no place for sloven minority in Croatia, not even the autochthonous minority because slovenia did not recognized autochthonous status to Croats in Slovenia.

What do you think about my idea of humane resettlement of all sloven persons from Croatia into slovenia and all Croats from slovenia into Croatia?

I wouldn't mind if sloven state would deported all Croats settled there back into the motherland because we suffer from negative natality here and need Croatian manpower, and I would be eager to get rid of the last single sloven person from the Croat soil one way or another.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Nevertheless they are contributing to the multinational character of this region and this is something I resent. There is no place for sloven minority in Croatia, not even the autochthonous minority because slovenia did not recognized autochthonous status to Croats in Slovenia.

Just out of interest, where do you have autochthonous Croats in Slovenia?

What do you think about my idea of humane resettlement of all sloven persons from Croatia into slovenia and all Croats from slovenia into Croatia?

Suits me.

[Watzy]

No it doesn't. That's a problem.

So you admit Croatia outside or inside EU doesn't make any difference for your interests.

Never heard of your imaginary Slovenian fishermen who are crossing borders, or Slovenian trespassers (you even call them radicals) etc.

In that case you wouldn't mind if these imaginary fishermen and trespassers end up drowned or strangled by an accident - since they are imaginary. :rofl:

Also I have nothing against Croats either, remember we're both Catholic nations and unlike other Slovenian neighbours (Germans, Italians and Hungarians) you never made any real trouble. I don't really see a problem with Croatia.

On the other hand the only present neighbor not creating any problems to Croatia is Hungary. I don't regard sloven land as a significant problem only due to sloven size. If slovens were larger I would have ranked them into the same level with Italian Fascist Iredenta.

What's the problem with Joško Joras? I mean, some Slovenian patriots even named him 'Slovenian hero of southern border'. :D

He has my respect for being a patriot, that's it. Anyway, Croatian police doesn't have authority over Joras, as he's living in Republic Slovenia, so only Slovenian police can 'kick the shit out of him'.

As I see it only the gods of war can decide on which side of the border Joras lives. :bbbat:

[Watzy]

Just out of interest, where do you have autochthonous Croats in Slovenia?

In Prekomurje and in northern Istria sloven Communist Edvard Kardelj took some Croatian vilages, and Croatian Jew Bakaric (Kuperstein) agreed.

Suits me.

:)

[SlovenianNationalist]

In that case you wouldn't mind if these imaginary fishermen and trespassers end up drowned or strangled by an accident - since they are imaginary. :rofl:

I don't mind if you strangle those Slovenians who are trespassing/fishing in Croatia. They are indeed imaginary.

I don't regard sloven land as a significant problem only due to sloven size. If slovens were larger I would have ranked them into the same level with Italian Fascist Iredenta.

Same here. I don't regard Croatia as a problem, probably because of the same reason as you don't regard Slovenia as a problem.

In Prekomurje

LOL, you don't even spell the name right. It's Prekmurje. I'm from Prekmurje and I don't know any Croat there. This is first time I heard about Croats living in Prekmurje actually.

and in northern Istria sloven Communist Edvard Kardelj took some Croatian vilages, and Croatian Jew Bakaric (Kuperstein) agreed.

Ustashas also took some Slovenian villages.

I have some articles about that, I don't know if you understand Slovenian, though..

TUDI NDH JE LETA 1941 OKUPIRALA DRAVSKO BANOVINO - SLOVENIJO (http://www.hervardi.com/predniki.php#ndhokup)

HRVAŠKA LETA 1946 OKUPIRA IN PRIKLJUČI VEČ SLOVENSKIH VASI V MEDMURJU - PRIMER ŠTRIGOVA (http://www.hervardi.com/predniki.php#ndhokup2)

:)

Would you mind if we send you some Serbs and Bosniaks too, togheter with 'autochthonous Croats'? :rofl:

[Zrinski]

No, I still believe that Slovenian must have mostly Slovenian ancestry.

You can believe whatever you want...that however doesn't make it right. I've showed you the examples.

Would you mind if we send you some Serbs and Bosniaks too, togheter with 'autochthonous Croats'? :rofl:

Why the ' sign? Are you want to imply Croats should not be autochtonous minority in Slovenia? Let me just ask you how do you then explain the fact that the second most common surname in Slovenia is 'Horvat'? How do you explain the fact that even the medieval texts speak of Croats living in Caranatiania which is supposed to be Slovenian proto state? You are again going way too much into chauvinist waters...

[Watzy]

I don't mind if you strangle those Slovenians who are trespassing/fishing in Croatia. They are indeed imaginary.

They aren't imaginary, only extremely deluded and Croatia's EU bid is the only reason they werent sobered up properly.

Same here. I don't regard Croatia as a problem, probably because of the same reason as you don't regard Slovenia as a problem.

I ensure you, Croatia is not a problem to slovens because of it's own EU bid. As soon as this bid expires you'll be heading toward serious troubles with your southern 'čifur' neighbor. :222:

LOL, you don't even spell the name right. It's Prekmurje. I'm from Prekmurje and I don't know any Croat there. This is first time I heard about Croats living in Prekmurje actually.

It is you who is spelling it wrong kid, just like any other sloven (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sloven) person. It shall always remain PREKOMURJE for Croat nationalists.

Ustashas also took some Slovenian villages.
I have some articles about that, I don't know if you understand Slovenian, though..

Indeed I don't speak your Zagorjean-German bastard tongue, but it sounds like a sloven bullcrap on any language, since there were no sloven villages or 'Slovenia' prior to 1945. 'Caranthians' or slovens are as much a nation as Smurfs and 'Bosniaks' are. :rofl:

Mokrice was also a part of Croatia, and it is still a part of Zagreb bishopy. Do not delude your self kid, our nationalists shall never forget it!

Would you mind if we send you some Serbs and Bosniaks too, togheter with 'autochthonous Croats'? :rofl:

That would make Germans the only remaining inhabitants of 'Slovenia'. :rofl:

[Watzy]

You can believe whatever you want...that however doesn't make it right. I've showed you the examples.



Why the ' sign? Are you want to imply Croats should not be autochtonous minority in Slovenia? Let me just ask you how do you then explain the fact that the second most common surname in Slovenia is 'Horvat'? How do you explain the fact that even the medieval texts speak of Croats living in Caranatiania which is supposed to be Slovenian proto state? You are again going way too much into chauvinist waters...


ROFL! Check out the age of this sloven. We're talking to a kid !! He's older than Slovenia though, but equally infantile. :rofl:

http://thephora.net/forum/member.php?u=850

Age:
17

http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/laughing.gif

SlovenianNationalist, grow some hair on your balls for Christ's sake and get a right to vote! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/emotlol_2.gif

[GAYLORD]

Nije mi jasno zasto si tako navalio na njega.

I thought he's 14 because he once said his nick at SF was Slovenec14.
Where's the problem if he's 17? Have your political views changed much since your 17th birthday, Watzy?

[SlovenianNationalist]

I ensure you, Croatia is not a problem to slovens because of it's own EU bid. As soon as this bid expires you'll be heading toward serious troubles with your southern 'čifur' neighbor. :222:

It's 'čefur', not "čifur" and Croats are not included into čefur category really. Čefur is a southern immigrant who lives in Slovenia and makes trouble.

It is you who is spelling it wrong kid, just like any other sloven (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sloven) person. It shall always remain PREKOMURJE for Croat nationalists.

I don't have a clue about what "PREKOMURJE" you are talking about, lol. All my ancestry is from that region, I know much about region's history and culture and I never heard that this region has got anything to do with Croats. It was always Slovenian land, although occupied by Hungarians after southern Panonia was destroyed in 9th century. It was called "Slovenska krajina" by Hungarians.

Thanks to patriots and nationalists like Maister and Matija Slavič, Prekmurje is now under Slovenia.

Your posts claiming that Prekmurje has anything to do with Croats are ridiculous.

Here's ethnic map of Slovenians in 19th century,

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/Slovenec14/map00010_2.jpg

You can clearly see Prekmurje as part of Slovenian teritory.

Indeed I don't speak your Zagorjean-German bastard tongue, but it sounds like a sloven bullcrap on any language, since there were no sloven villages or 'Slovenia' prior to 1945.

Of course there was Slovenia before 1945, unfortunately because of pan-Slavism and some Serb-loving traitors we were part of artificial SHS state at that time. That wouldn't happen if we followed our program of 'Zedinjena Slovenija' after WWI instead of making allies like Serbs. We also wouldn't lost our sacred land of Carinthia and Primorska.

"Zagorjean-German bastard tongue"

To be honest, our language sounds better than yours.

We also had translation of Bible before you thanks to Slovenian Protestant Jurij Dalmatin.

'Caranthians' or slovens are as much a nation as Smurfs and 'Bosniaks' are. :rofl:

LOL!

That would make Germans the only remaining inhabitants of 'Slovenia'. :rofl:

That's like me saying that Serbs and Italians are the only inhabitants of Croatia.:nuts:

[SlovenianNationalist]

ROFL! Check out the age of this sloven. We're talking to a kid !! He's older than Slovenia though, but equally infantile. :rofl:

http://thephora.net/forum/member.php?u=850



http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/laughing.gif

SlovenianNationalist, grow some hair on your balls for Christ's sake and get a right to vote! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/emotlol_2.gif

What has my age got to do with anything???

You are maybe older than me, but your behaviour and your primitive attacks are childish.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Wow, so Rijeka and Krk and Cres are Slovenian people. And we thought some serbs were a bit carried away in fanatsy.

[Zrinski]

To be honest, our language sounds better than yours.

:rofl:
Well yes to you it does...to me Croatian sounds better than Slovenian. What will we do now? :D

What a ridiculous statement...

We also had translation of Bible before you thanks to Slovenian Protestant Jurij Dalmatin.

Croats had translation of Bible into Old Church Slavonic variants used in Croatia since 9th century. We had our dicitionary before you, first novel and also the first published book also before you. We had prayer book before you and way before your translation of the Bible, etc. What now? Are we going to have a pissing contest of who wrote what and when?

And as for that map it has nothing to do with historical or any references. That map is nothing but wet dream of Slovenian nationalists from 19th century which had nothing to do with reality. The map is also called "Map of Slovenian lands"...no such things ever existed. Besides even in ethnic composition if we look everything south of the line of administrative borders between Carinthia-Styria towards Istria(Kustenland) and Croatia-Slavonia was ethnically by high majority Croatian with barely if any Slovenians. You can find the map of Austria-Hungary from 1911. which shows this quite nicely....Rijeka(Modrus-Fiume) and Istria(along with the islands of Krk and Cres) have never been Slovenian in any sense. One of the oldest signs of Croatian statehood come from Istria, Rijeka and Krk/Cres.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Well yes to you it does...to me Croatian sounds better than Slovenian. What will we do now? :D

What a ridiculous statement...

It's was a reply to Watzy statement about Slovenian being "German-Zagorje" dialect or something like that.

Croats had translation of Bible into Old Church Slavonic variants used in Croatia since 9th century.

Never heard about that. Encyclopedias say differently.

And as for that map it has nothing to do with historical or any references. That map is nothing but wet dream of Slovenian nationalists from 19th century which had nothing to do with reality.

It could easily be reality if there were no anti-nationalist traitors after WWI. The map was fundation for early Slovenian nationalism.

Peter Kozler and other Slovenian nationalists weren't anti-Croat or something, they called Croats their brothers.

The map shows where Slovenians were majority at that time, Slovenians also lived outside of the borders of this map (Benečija for example, which is not on the map because Slovenians weren't majority there or Medmurje).

Also, we are not talking about Istra really, but about that ridiculous claim made by Watzy how Prekmurje is 'Croatian'. :confused:

You can find the map of Austria-Hungary from 1911.

Can you post this map?

[Zrinski]

Never heard about that. Encyclopedias say differently.

You either didn't read the encyclopedias or you don't know how to read. I would like to point you to the excellent article on wikipedia about Croatian language. You can find all the information I told you here about...if you wish that is.

It could easily be reality if there were no anti-nationalist traitors after WWI. The map was fundation for early Slovenian nationalism.

No it couldn't. Croatia, Rijeka and the islands Krk and Cres were never and would never be Slovenian...they were Croatian.

Peter Kozler and other Slovenian nationalists weren't anti-Croat or something, they called Croats their brothers.

No, but today Slovenian nationalists who wave with that map around the net are by large anti-Croatian. That map is nothing but fiction.

The map shows where Slovenians were majority at that time, Slovenians also lived outside of the borders of this map (Benečija for example, which is not on the map because Slovenians weren't majority there or Medmurje).

No it does not. Slovenians were never a majority in Istria, Rijeka(Modrus-Fiume) and islands of Krk and Cres....Croats were.

Can you post this map?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Austria_hungary_1911.jpg

Edit: Don't get me wrong due to my harsh tone, I am just not quite happy with some of your rhetoric here. I respect Slovenians and their history completly. You know this as I have stated this more than once.

[SlovenianNationalist]

No it couldn't. Croatia, Rijeka and the islands Krk and Cres were never and would never be Slovenian...they were Croatian.

It's hard to say what could happen, however Slovenian nationalism was more directed agains Germans and Italians who tried to steal as many land as possible, Hungarians weren't much better either.

No, but today Slovenian nationalists who wave with that map around the net are by large anti-Croatian. That map is nothing but fiction.

It's not a fiction, but fundation of early Slovenian nationalism. Today's nationalism is not so anti-Croat, as I said already, Carinthia (occupied by Austria) and Furlanija (occupied by Italy) are more important than Istra.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Austria_hungary_1911.jpg

As you can see, Prekmurje is part of Slovenia. :)

Just out of interest, who made this map?

Edit: Don't get me wrong due to my harsh tone, I am just not quite happy with some of your rhetoric here. I respect Slovenians and their history completly. You know this as I have stated this more than once.

Same here. Unlike Watzy you didn't use childish insults against my nation or language.

[Zrinski]

Just out of interest, who made this map?

The map is from from the Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd, 1911.
You can find it in the english article about Austria-Hungary.

Off to watch Alonso taking the title. :D

[Watzy]

To be honest, our language sounds better than yours.

Actually it sounds ridiculous and heavily influenced by German in structure. Slovens even count the two-digit numbers like their former German masters, pronouncing the last number first:

'Twenty one' on sloven is 'enaindvajset' like 'einundzwanzig' on German, and so on.

Also, Sloven is not a purist language like Croatian or Czech. For instance, Slovens do not have their own Slavic words for months but have adopted international:

Months (Croatian-sloven)

Siječanj - januar
Veljača - februar
Ožujak - marec
Travanj - april
Svibanj - maj
Lipanj - junij
Srpanj - julij
Kolovoz - avgust
Rujan - septrember
Listopad - oktober
Studeni - november
Prosinac - december

[Watzy]

Never heard about that. Encyclopedias say differently.

Old Church Slavonic - Croatian recension

The Croatian recension of Old Church Slavonic is one of the earliest known today. It only used the Glagolitic alphabet. The nasal sounds [ǫ]/[ę] had been substituted with [o]/[u] and a variety of reflections of the proto-Slavic *tj and *dj emerged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic_language

Croatian language - Early development

The beginning of the Croatian written language can be traced to the 9th century, when Old Church Slavonic was adopted as the language of the liturgy. This language was gradually adapted to non-liturgical purposes and became known as the Croatian version of Old Slavonic. The two variants of the language, liturgical and non-liturgical, continued to be a part of the Glagolitic service as late as the mid-9th century...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_language

[Watzy]

Here's ethnic map of Slovenians in 19th century,

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/Slovenec14/map00010_2.jpg

You can clearly see Prekmurje as part of Slovenian teritory.

The sign on this chart is saying 'dežela', ergo 'state'. And we both know there was no such state in 19. century (or ever). So the chart has to be about some sort of pretentious sloven plan or program, something slovens aspired to get in future. :rofl:

It cannot possibly represent an ethnic chart like you say, since sloven foot never managed to reach isolated Croat areas such as Krk (na island). Slovens only managed to slightly bastardize Istria where they still constitute a tiny minority.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Actually it sounds ridiculous and heavily influenced by German in structure. Slovens even count the two-digit numbers like their former German masters, pronouncing the last number first:

'Twenty one' on sloven is 'enaindvajset' like 'einundzwanzig' on German, and so on.

Slovenian isn't influenced much by German in structure, we only use few words that are close to German.

I can tell you this, because Slovenian is my mother language and I learn German for more than 9 years.

Also, Sloven is not a purist language like Croatian or Czech. For instance, Slovens do not have their own Slavic words for months but have adopted international:

Months (Croatian-sloven)

Siječanj - januar
Veljača - februar
Ožujak - marec
Travanj - april
Svibanj - maj
Lipanj - junij
Srpanj - julij
Kolovoz - avgust
Rujan - septrember
Listopad - oktober
Studeni - november
Prosinac - december

You are wrong, we have traditional names for our months, but we are used to international ones, I mean, what you posted it 'official version'.

Prosinec - januar
Svečan - februar
Sušec – marec
Mali traven – april
Veliki traven – maj
Rožnik – junij
Mali srpan – julij
Veliki srpan – avgust
Kimavec – september
Vinotok – oktober
Listopad – november
Gruden – december

From year 1466,

slovensko iz rokopisa v Loki na Kranjskem 1466

Prosinic
Sečan
Sušec
Mali traven
Veliki traven
Boboucvet
Mali Serpan
Veliki Serpan
Poberuh
Listognoj
Kozovperstk
Gruden

Not only that, we also have a poem :)

VALENTIN VODNIK

Prosinec

Kratek je pust,
rôčno si vzamte žené!
Kratek je ples,
kvatre zakonske dolgé.


Svečan

Bolj bode pridna
pozimi predica,
dalj bo rožljala
pod palcem petica.


Sušec

Trte se jokajo,
potlej rodé,
kteri pít hočejo,
naj se poté.


Mali traven

Jablane, hruške
in druge cepé
cepi v mladosti
za stare zobé!


Veliki traven

Natvóra jeseni
pretrudna zaspi,
zato se spomladi
vesela zbudi.


Rožnik

Lepoto dá zemlji
toplo lét,
nedolžnost mladenčem
pravi cvet.


Mali srpan

Lej, ktir so poleti
pred zarjo vstajáli,
so bodo pozimi
za hajdo naspali.


Veliki srpan

Obirajo hajdo
nedolžne tatice,
čbelárjem pa nósjo
debele mošnjíce.


Kimavec

Teríce pogačo,
potvico jedó,
lanóvi Slovencem
ruménce nesó.


Vinotok

Grozdje mastí
veseli Dolénjc,
vózi pa mošt
bogati Gorénjc.


Listopad

Je nadelana cesta,
ne zajemajo pesta.


Gruden

Kdor klobas pozimi hrani,
se poleti muham brani.

[SlovenianNationalist]

The sign on this chart is saying 'dežela', ergo 'state'. And we both know there was no such state in 19. century (or ever). So the chart has to be about some sort of pretentious sloven plan or program, something slovens aspired to get in future. :rofl:

Dežela = country

Država = State

It's a difference. I can claim that I come from Prekmurje country - iz prekmurske dežele, of course that's not the same as state.

It cannot possibly represent an ethnic chart like you say, since sloven foot never managed to reach isolated Croat areas such as Krk (na island). Slovens only managed to slightly bastardize Istria where they still constitute a tiny minority.

I can't tell you anything about that since I don't know much about Istra really, but Kozler made a long-years research and afaik visited those lands by himself, so he knew what he was doing. We were talking about Prekmurje anyway..

He also founded Union brewery, the best beer in Slovenia. :D

The UNION Brewer was founded in 1864 by Peter Kozler and his brother and sister, using money they inherited from their father. Kozler, a lawyer conscious of his Slovene roots, was the driving force behind the brewery right up to his death. The “Kozler Brothers’ Brewery” in Lower Siska in Ljubljana was a roaring success; by 1909, it had developed beyond the limits of a family company and was therefore transformed into a joint-stock company, with the Kozler family retaining a share, although the majority of the capital was of foreign origin. The Company was also renamed “UNION Brewery Joint-Stock Company, Ljubljana”.

http://www.randburg.com/si/unionbr.html

We have good beer here, IMO Union is better beer than Croatian Užujsko (or something like that) or Karlovačko. :beerchug:

EDIT: What about using the correct word instead of 'Sloven', which is Slovene or Slovenian?

[Watzy]

Kozler made a long-years research and afaik visited those lands by himself, so he knew what he was doing.

That sloven bartender obviously consumed his own products during his travels because one really has to be a drunkard to spot 'deželas' in a homeland of Croat culture and gentry such as Krk. If any race other than Croat race inhabits Krk it's the Roman race, not slovens:

"The island has been inhabited since before 10th century BCE. The Romans called the island Curicta. During the Roman Civil War, the Bay of Curicta was the scene of sea combat between the fleets of Caesar and Pompeius.

Over a thousand years later, the island was the center of the Vegliot dialect of the Dalmatian language. Krk was also the seat of medieval bishops and important nobility, the Frankopans.

Krk has historically been a center of Croatian culture. Various literature in Glagolitic alphabet was created and in part preserved on Krk (notably the Baška Tablet, the oldest preserved text in Croatian)."

We were talking about Prekmurje anyway..

Like you admitted you're not an expert on Istria, I cannot say I know much about Prekomurje other than it was a traditional part of the Kingdom of Hungary.

The UNION Brewer was founded in 1864 by Peter Kozler and his brother and sister, using money they inherited from their father. Kozler, a lawyer conscious of his Slovene roots

I have little doubts that German brewery tradition in 'Slovenia' predates 1864.

We have good beer here, IMO Union is better beer than Croatian Užujsko (or something like that) or Karlovačko.

It's a silly comparison since Croatia is a country of wine tradition cherished since the Roman ages. Beer drinking in Croatia was spread relatively recently (18.-19. century) by Germans.

Also Ožujsko, Karlovačko, Osječko ect. are our commercial beers. You should try elite beers such as 'Zlatni Medvjed' and 'Crna Kraljica' - IMO much better than any sloven label I tasted.

Harder to find, but well worth the search: http://www.pivnica-medvedgrad.hr/

EDIT: What about using the correct word instead of 'Sloven', which is Slovene or Slovenian?

'Slovenian/Slovene' is a neologism without historic meaning. Why do you think coining a similar one is less correct compared to the one you use?

[SlovenianNationalist]

Like you admitted you're not an expert on Istria, I cannot say I know much about Prekomurje other than it was a traditional part of the Kingdom of Hungary.

Than you have no right to claim that Prekmurje has anything to do with Croatia. Remember, I never said Istra is Slovenian land, also I don't have no intention to claim Istra for Slovenia.

'Slovenian/Slovene' is a neologism without historic meaning. Why do you think coining a similar one is less correct compared to the one you use?

'Slovenian/Slovene' is the right term in English.

Slovenec = Slovene/Slovenian

Slovenci = Slovenians/Slovenes

No historic meaning?? :confused:

[Watzy]

Than you have no right to claim that Prekmurje has anything to do with Croatia.

To remind you on my original statement concerning Prekomurje: "In Prekomurje and in northern Istria sloven Communist Edvard Kardelj took some Croatian vilages, and Croatian Jew Bakaric (Kuperstein) agreed."

http://thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=207436&postcount=31

Remember, I never said Istra is Slovenian land, also I don't have no intention to claim Istra for Slovenia.

Your Walt Disney's 'ethnic' map did. http://www.forum.hr/images/smilies/rofl.gif

Slovenian/Slovene' is the right term in English.

Slovenec = Slovene/Slovenian

Slovenci = Slovenians/Slovenes

No historic meaning?? :confused:

Sure. Can you point some older source, predating 19 century romantic nationalism, mentioning Slovenia or Slovenians?
You said your folk was called Karanthians. Krain was inhabited by Illyrians, a completely different people called 'Alpine Croats' by Starcevic - our 19 century nationalist. Never were these different lands and peoples a part of the one state called 'Slovenia' prior to 1918. and SHS state.

[SlovenianNationalist]

To remind you on my original statement concerning Prekomurje: "In Prekomurje and in northern Istria sloven Communist Edvard Kardelj took some Croatian vilages, and Croatian Jew Bakaric (Kuperstein) agreed."

'Few villages' don't make whole region of course. ;)

Also, first time I hear about this. Remember, I'm 100% Prekmurec and I know history of our region quite good.

Sure. Can you point some older source, predating 19 century romantic nationalism, mentioning Slovenia or Slovenians?
You said your folk were called Karanthians. Krain was inhabited by Illyrians, a completely different people called 'Alpine Croats' by Starcevic - our 19 century nationalist. Never were these different lands and peoples a part of the one state called 'Slovenia' prior to 1918. and SHS state.

LMAO.

That's BS, I read that you Croats actually believe that we Slovenians were called 'Kranjci' before 19th century. :rofl:

First time the word 'Slovenia' was mentioned is 6th century I believe, by Langobard historian (Sclavunia). Also Prekmurje was called 'Slovenska krajina' by Hungarians when they came to Panonia.

Alpine Croats? Haha. Illyrians? LOL.

The word 'Slovenci' was surely in use in 16th century, when Slovenian Protestants wrote first Slovenian books.

Ever heard of Primož Trubar? He wrote a famous 'Nagovor Slovencem'.

Vsem Slovencem gnado mir, milost inu pravo spoznane božje skuzi Jezusa Kristusa prosim.

. . .

Kedar ta slovenski jezik se povsod glih inu v eni viži ne govori - drigači govore z dostimi besedami Kranjci, drigači Korošci, drigači Štajeri in Dolenci ter Bezjaki, drigači Krašovci inu Istrijani, drigači Krovati....

. . .

...te gmanjske kranjske preproste besede, katere vsaki dobri preprosti Slovenec lehku more zastopiti...

(16th century)

That's just from one book, I'm not really in the mood to write down whole texts, but the word 'Slovenec' was regurarly in use.

EDIT: I found predgovor on internet
http://www.ijs.si/lit/trubar57.html

enjoy

[Zrinski]

I read that you Croats actually believe that we Slovenians were called 'Kranjci' before 19th century. :rofl:

"We Croats" do not "believe", we know. Slovenians were noted as such in various census lists.

First time the word 'Slovenia' was mentioned is 6th century I believe, by Langobard historian (Sclavunia). Also Prekmurje was called 'Slovenska krajina' by Hungarians when they came to Panonia.

As I told you before this term is not exclusively Slovenian. Whole area from today's Slovenia down to Dyrrachion and Salonica was called 'Sclavonia' or 'Sclavunia'. This term applied to lands where all South Slavs lived.

[SlovenianNationalist]

"We Croats" do not "believe", we know. Slovenians were noted as such in various census lists.

What census lists?

As I told you before this term is not exclusively Slovenian. Whole area from today's Slovenia down to Dyrrachion and Salonica was called 'Sclavonia' or 'Sclavunia'. This term applied to lands where all South Slavs lived.

Source, please.

[Zrinski]

What census lists?

Report-census from 1712. talking about the re-settlement of Lika.
Furthemore people such as Bohemian/Czech pan-slavist J.Dobrovski spoke about 'Kranjci'(Slovenians) as well and many others including Serb V.S. Karazdic.

Source, please.

http://www.croatians.com/SLAVONIAN-SCHIAVONI.htm
This is regarding Croats alone. There are many others sources where Croats were refered as 'Slavonians' or as coming from 'Sclavonia' such as St. Jakov Zadranin or as they call him on this site 'James of Bitetto'. ->
http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/saintj1i.htm

Note that Mihajlo I. Vojislav, King of Dioclea was also referred as King of Sclavorum/Sclavonia and Serbia also refered by Greek sources as such.

In more recent times 'Sclavonia' was a name for Slavonia.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Report-census from 1712. talking about the re-settlement of Lika.
Furthemore people such as Bohemian/Czech pan-slavist J.Dobrovski spoke about 'Kranjci'(Slovenians) as well and many others.

Kranjci does not equal Slovenians it was only a region. Of course, inhabitants of that region were called Kranjci, just like Štajerci, Dolenjci etc.

I already explained that Trubard and Protestant were using the term Slovenians, as were Catholics in the time of Counter-Reformation.

http://www.croatians.com/SLAVONIAN-SCHIAVONI.htm
This is regarding Croats alone. There are many others sources where Croats were refered as 'Slavonians' or as coming from 'Sclavonia' such as St. Jakov Zadranin or as they call him on this site 'James of Bitetto'. ->
http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/saintj1i.htm

Indeed, that's because Slovenians were living there up until the time of Turkish invasions when they were assimilated by Serbs and Croats.

Sclavunia (Slavonija) was also refered as 'Windischland',

http://www.hervardi.com/images/slovenijeh017.jpg

:)

(in German language - Windish = Slovenian)

In more recent times 'Sclavonia' was a name for Slavonia.

Of course, just like it was still used for Slovenia as late as in 16th century (Protestants again).

»tam Nemec Luter – tu Slovenec Trubar, ta nič manjši od onega; tam Germania – tu Slauonia«

(Matija Trost from Vipava)

[Zrinski]

Kranjci does not equal Slovenians it was only a region. Of course, inhabitants of that region were called Kranjci, just like Štajerci, Dolenjci etc.

As I showed you in the past it was Kranjci=Slovenians.

Indeed, that's because Slovenians were living there up until the time of Turkish invasions when they were assimilated by Serbs and Croats.

WTF are you talking about? Slovenians in Dalmatia and Dioclea? LOL! :rofl:
Why don't you actually read the article I gave you in my previous post...

Sclavunia (Slavonija) was also refered as 'Windischland',
(in German language - Windish = Slovenian)

And this is again another general term not something which can be described as exclusively Slovenian..far from it. Windisch or Wendisch was used for various Slavic populations especially those living in german-controlled lands such as Polabian Slavs(Abodrites, Sorbs, Veletians) and Slovenians. It was also used for Slovaks.

Of course, just like it was still used for Slovenia as late as in 16th century (Protestants again).

»tam Nemec Luter – tu Slovenec Trubar, ta nič manjši od onega; tam Germania – tu Slauonia«

(Matija Trost from Vipava)

I am talking about the term in general...not what some romantic wrote. There was no 'Slovenia' in 16th century unlike 'Slavonia' which was a crown-land within 'Habsburg Monarchy'. And in earlier times this term was applied to all Slav-inhabited lands...from Carinthia to Macedonia.

[Jebivjetar]

He also founded Union brewery, the best beer in Slovenia. :D

We have good beer here, IMO Union is better beer than Croatian Užujsko (or something like that) or Karlovačko. :beerchug:
Zlatorog or Karlovačko are much better. Union sucks.

Also Ožujsko, Karlovačko, Osječko ect. are our commercial beers. You should try elite beers such as 'Zlatni Medvjed' and 'Crna Kraljica' - IMO much better than any sloven label I tasted.

Harder to find, but well worth the search: http://www.pivnica-medvedgrad.hr/
Are you serious? :rofl:

[Watzy]

Are you serious? :rofl:

About superior quality of beers brewed out of grain and best ingredients over cheep industrial corn-piss beers? lol It's like choosing between Wienerschnitzel and macDonald's cheeseburgers. Hardly a competition.

[Watzy]

Kranjci does not equal Slovenians it was only a region. Of course, inhabitants of that region were called Kranjci, just like Štajerci, Dolenjci etc.

Southern part of historic Krain is a part of modern Croatia, inhabitants declare as Croats - not Caranthians, slovens or however is it you people choose to call your self.

Indeed, that's because Slovenians were living there up until the time of Turkish invasions when they were assimilated by Serbs and Croats.

Long before the Turkish invasion Croatian rulers were refereed as 'Slavic dukes' by Venetian sources, and 'Sclavi' is the term Italians even today collectively use for any southern Slavic population.


Domagoj of Croatia

Venetian's chronicles named him The worst duke of Slavs (Latin: pessimus dux Sclavorum). Pope John VIII referred to Domagoj in letters as Famous duke (Latin: glouriosus dux).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domagoj_of_Croatia

Slovens monopolizing Slavic name is preposterous, especially since they were always rater small, marginal and insignificant group that never managed even to create their own ethnic state, until Serbs and Austrian defeat in WW1 made it possible.

[Watzy]

ILIRSKA BISTRICA (ILLYRIAN BISTRICA)

LOCATION:
Ilirska Bistrica is situated by the main road connecting Slovenian capital Ljubljana with Croatian port of Reka (Rijeka, Fiume), not far from the Croatian border. The railway line Ljubljana - Rijeka is passing here too.

Name Ilirska Bistrica suggest the presence of Ilyrians, an ancient pre-Roman nation populating areas along the Adriatic coast from southern Slovenia to Albania. Many supposedly perished in a battle with Romans that reportedly took place just south of the present day city of Ilirska Bistrica...

http://www.ars-cartae.com/ilirska.htm

http://www.ngw.nl/int/slv/images/ilirbist.jpg

The oldest impression of the coat of arms of Ilirska Bistrica was found on a document issued by the town authorities on 10th June 1871. It represents a galley, warship of the "Liburni", the people that lived on the coast of the North Adriatic Sea - the Kvarner. The symbol was taken from the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Iliria, which was part of the then Austrian-Hungarian Empire (1816-1918). During that time the town Bistrica also became Ilirska Bistrica.

http://www.ngw.nl/int/slv/ilirbist.htm

"Croatian concordia and unity" - Hymn of the Illyrian Movement

"Croatia has not fallen yet, we still live!
Let us but arouse it, it will reach new heights.
Today the brothers lead the dance and celebrate;
For Croatia is resurrected and the son content...
All the countrymen of the old state are here:
At the ceremony are the heroes of Corbavia,
The men of Krain, Styria, Gorenska and Slavonia,
Here are the Bosnians, Istrians and Dalmatians...
Long live our unity, and every true Slav
Health to the true son of our stock!

Ljudevit Gaj (1809 – 1872)

http://www.krapina.hr/images/lj_gaj.jpg

HORVATOV SLOGA I SJEDINJENJE

Još Horvatska ni propala, dok mi živimo,
Visoko se bude stala kad ju zbudimo;
Ak je dugo trvdo spala, jačja hoće bit,
Ak je sada vu snu mala, će se prostranit.

Većkrat senja čudne senje slatke radosti,
Kada se joj kažu tenje jake mladosti;
Drugda pako magle crne nju opstiraju,
Kada sestre njoj neverne nju zapiraju.

Jenput vidi županije sve ponovljene,
Stare slavne sve banije znova stvorjene;
Vidi, čuje Gorotance, Krajnce dolazit
I s Horvati neprestance tako govorit:

"Hoj Horvati, braćo mila, čujte našu reč,
Neće nas razdružit sila baš nikakva već;
Nas je negda jedna mati draga rodila,
S jednim nas je, bog joj plati, mlekom pojila.

Kako ćemo majki bolje sad zahvaliti,
Kak da bumo jedne volje se sjediniti;
Jal i nazlob njejne sine su razdružili,
Stare slavne domovine diku zrušili.

Ni li skoro skradnje vreme da nju zvisimo,
Ter da stranjsko teško breme iz nas bacimo;
Stari smo i mi Horvati, nismo zabili,
Da smo vaši pravi brati zlo prebavili."

Jenput čuje svoje sine glasno pevati,
Složne glase u visine tako zdigati:
"Braća danas kolo vodi, danak svetkuje,
Horvatska se preporodi, sin se raduje."

V kolu jesu vsi Horvati stare države,
Staroj Slavi verni svati s Like, Krbave,
Krajnci, Štajer, Gorotanci i Šlavonija
Skup Bošnjaci, Istrijanci ter Dalmacija.

Vsi Horvati se rukuju i spoznavaju,
Istinski se sad kušuju, reč si davaju;
Neka znaju sveta puki njihov novi zvez,
Hvalit ćeju vnukov vnuki Slavki narod ves.

Nudar braćo čaše z vinom sad napunite,
Zdravicu horvatskem sinom vernem napi’te;
Neka žive naša sloga, vsaki pravi Slav,
Pravi sinko roda svoga neka bude zdrav!"

[Zrinski]

Slovens monopolizing Slavic name is preposterous...

Indeed. 'Tis ridiculous... :rolleyes:

[SlovenianNationalist]

As I showed you in the past it was Kranjci=Slovenians.

Where did you show me that???:confused:

I already explained you that Kranjci are just people living in Carniola (Kranjska). They were about 50% of Slovenians at that time.

WTF are you talking about? Slovenians in Dalmatia and Dioclea? LOL! :rofl:[QUOTE]

No, Slovenians in Slavonia and other parts of former Slovenian lower Panonia.

http://www.hervardi.com/images/kraljestvo_karantanija.jpg

Notice the 'Spodnja Panonija'.

It was the land of Slovenian heroes such as Ljudevit Panonski, Kocelj and Pribina.

[QUOTE]And this is again another general term not something which can be described as exclusively Slovenian..far from it. Windisch or Wendisch was used for various Slavic populations especially those living in german-controlled lands such as Polabian Slavs(Abodrites, Sorbs, Veletians) and Slovenians. It was also used for Slovaks.

Never heard that it was used for non-Slovenians. Do you have any source?

All better German dictionaries say it's a word used for Slovenians, not 'various Slavs'.

And in earlier times this term was applied to all Slav-inhabited lands...from Carinthia to Macedonia.

Again, do you have any source?

[SlovenianNationalist]

Southern part of historic Krain is a part of modern Croatia, inhabitants declare as Croats - not Caranthians, slovens or however is it you people choose to call your self.

In what part of Kranjska did people declare themselves as Croats??? It was maybe few people who immigrated there from Croatia...

Slovens monopolizing Slavic name is preposterous, especially since they were always rater small, marginal and insignificant group that never managed even to create their own ethnic state, until Serbs and Austrian defeat in WW1 made it possible.

Didn't create a state??? We had a state long time before you!

The historical records, however, give evidence that a Slovenian state called provincia Sclaborum (the later Carantania) existed as early as 595 AD.

Who are the 'Austrians'? No such nation exists, "Austrians" are either Germans or Germanized Slovenians.

[Ace Rimmer]

It is really silly to usurp Slavic name(s) from 6th onwards century and aplly it to modern Slovenes.

Franks, Byzantines, Germans , Venetians...etc. called all Slavs they came in contact with Sclavi , Sclavoni, Sclaueni, Sclabi ....

Marchia Sclavonica and Sclavoni means province of Slavs and Slavs,
not Slovenia or Slovenes and can be applied to any Slavic nation at the time.
For instance many dukes from Dalmatia carried titles such is "Sclavorum" and others; and were refered as such by foreigners. (Sclavi, Sclavoni...)

It is mostly foreign designation to living early Slavs and can not be interpreted
as ethnic designation of modern Slovenes.

That is if you are into scientific approach to history and facts.

If it is about national history for purpose of strengthening your peoples national pride,
than I agree with all you've said so far. ;)

[Zrinski]

Where did you show me that???:confused:

In my previous posts. 'Kranjci' was a name for Slovenians in other Slavic nations including Croats...though it must be said that 'Goranci' (people of Gorski Kotar and Zagorje) were refered as such as well. The mentioned J.Dobrovski wrote about Kranjci(Slovenians) and said "they no longer want to be Croats and dress as Germans". You conclude...

I already explained you that Kranjci are just people living in Carniola (Kranjska). They were about 50% of Slovenians at that time.

The name was used for people living outside Carniola as well thus your "explanation" doesn't stand.


No, Slovenians in Slavonia and other parts of former Slovenian lower Panonia.

I wasn't talking about Slavonia, I was talking about Dalmatia and whole South Slavic inhabited areas from Carinthia to Macedonia. Croats were on regular basis also refered as 'Sclavonians'. You usurping that general Slavic name is ridiculous.

It was the land of Slovenian heroes such as Ljudevit Panonski, Kocelj and Pribina.

Ljudevit Posavski and Pribina were Slovenians? :rofl:

All better German dictionaries say it's a word used for Slovenians, not 'various Slavs'.

Actually all better German dictionaries say it was used for Sorbs and other Polabian Slavs such as Abodrites and Veletians. In a much wider term it also sometimes refered to Slovaks, Poles and all West Slavs. And sometimes also for Slovenians. And in the end for all Slavs.

Again, do you have any source?

I've already gave you the references, if you will follow them if not do not pretend like I didn't gave you sources.

[SlovenianNationalist]

In my previous posts. 'Kranjci' was a name for Slovenians in other Slavic nations including Croats...though it must be said that 'Goranci' (people of Gorski Kotar and Zagorje) were refered as such as well. The mentioned J.Dobrovski wrote about Kranjci(Slovenians) and said "they no longer want to be Croats and dress as Germans". You conclude...

Ahhhh....

Of course it was the name of Slovenians living in Kranjska, but that's about it.

I mean, that's like me saying 'Croats didn't exist, because some Croats there in Dalmatia were sometimes also refered as 'Dalmatians''. LOL

The name was used for people living outside Carniola as well thus your "explanation" doesn't stand.

Source please.

I wasn't talking about Slavonia, I was talking about Dalmatia and whole South Slavic inhabited areas from Carinthia to Macedonia. Croats were on regular basis also refered as 'Sclavonians'. You usurping that general Slavic name is ridiculous.

On the contrary, many historic records see Croats as a different group than 'Sclavunians'...

1542. V Špire varaše na Nemcih v Imperiomu spravišče včineno iest i dokončaše vsi proti Turkom vojuvati…..Duj seže velika vojska Ferdinanduševa i od Imperioma Hercegi i gospoda i od Italije papina vojska, i vogerska gospoda i od Horvat i Sloveni, Dunaj (Donavo, op.p.) prebrodiše i pojdiše podseči Pešt varaš…. Onde knez Mikloš Zrinski pred Peštom razbi Turke svojimi ljudmi, Janičare i konike na harču, i tako se vojska duiše vernuše domom, ništar dobra ne opravivši, a zato dosta poginu naših. Ferdinandus kral včini na Horvateh i na Slovenieh Bana kneza Mikluša Zrinskoga to isto leto.

1455. Mahumet gore rečeni poglavnik Turški, Dolni Belgrad z veliko vnožino četirij sto jezer (jezer je stara slovenska beseda za število tisoč, op.p.) Turkou i z veliko močjo i z pukšami velikimi podzede i zače ga jako biti, ruvati i terti. Janko vojvoda z Kapitanom fratrom z malu vojsko z Vogri, Slovenci i z Horvati proti caru Turškomu i njegove vojske velike i dosta pobišta cara z malu vojsko i ludmi. Križom su bili poznamenuvani dobri i verni vitezove i kerščenici, Vzešta caru sto velikih i nezgovorneh pušek i ostaloga orožja k boju pristojnoga vnoga i dobiček velik vitezove vzosne, vjete Turke blago i marhu veliko domou odpelaše i odnesoše z velikim veseljem

BTW where do you have any sources to back up your claims from previous posts...

Ljudevit Posavski and Pribina were Slovenians? :rofl:

Who is 'Posavski'? He had nothing to do with Sava river, that was the name that was given to him in 20th century by some Croats.

And indeed, Ljudevit and Pribina were Slovenians. Panonia is Slovenian land and was part of Carantanian kingdom under Arnulf of Carinthia.

(See the map from previous post)

[Zrinski]

Ahhhh....

Of course it was the name of Slovenians living in Kranjska, but that's about it.

No.

Source please.

Search my previous posts.

BTW where do you have any sources to back up your claims from previous posts...

http://www.croatians.com/SLAVONIAN-SCHIAVONI.htm

Who is 'Posavski'? He had nothing to do with Sava river, that was the name that was given to him in 20th century by some Croats.

It is the name under which he is known to the whole world.

And indeed, Ljudevit and Pribina were Slovenians. Panonia is Slovenian land and was part of Carantanian kingdom under Arnulf of Carinthia.

(See the map from previous post)

No they were not, nor is Pannonia "Slovenian land". The map you posted is rubbish and your claims ridiculous. Reminds me of Macedonian Slavs claiming they are descendants of 'Alexander the Great'. Hilarious. :rofl:

[SlovenianNationalist]

It is the name under which he is known to the whole world.

Yeah, they teach us at school that he was 'Posavski', however he was never called that way before 19th century. Better name would be Panonski.

http://www.croatians.com/SLAVONIAN-SCHIAVONI.htm

http://www.hervardi.com/slovenijeh.php

Sorry, I don't have an English version. Do you understand Slovenian? It's an interesting study made by pro-Slovenian, patriotic nationalist organization Hervardi.

I have more articles on this question, I'll translate some of them and post them here later.

No they were not, nor is Pannonia "Slovenian land".

Of course it was. The map I posted is a map of 'Regnum Carentano', Slovenian land, lead by Arnulf of Carinthia (son of German father and Slovenian mother).

-------------------------------------------------------

Arnulf of Carantania
(ca. 845 - 899)
Duke, King, and Emperor
He laid the ground work for the European Community at that time

http://carantha.net/20526090.gif
Arnulf of Carantania: His royal seal of 888 and his imperial seal of 896

http://carantha.net/20726140.gif
King Louis the German (Arnulf`s grand father) and King Louis the Child (Arnulf`s son) on contemporary seals

As early as 595 AD the State of Slovenia, called Carantania or Sclauinia (Slovenia), left its imprint in the historical records, and its Slovenian people never were more involved in European affairs as under the direct leadership of Arnulf of Carantania.

Arnulf's father, Prince Carloman, was the son of Louis the German, King of the Eastern Franks, a grandson of Charlemagne. His kingdom was in a way a medieval confederation of the following duchies: Bavaria, Swabia, Francony, Saxony, and Carantania (Slovenia).

In Carantania, in Blatograd (Moosburg) Carloman resided in a royal palace. Here, he evidently lived after the year 840 for quite some time with a Carantanian lady called Liudvina (Liutswind), who gave birth to their illegitimate son. Carloman baptized his son and named him Arnulf, in memory of his original ancestors "the Carolingian clan". Arnulf, who later on became duke of Carantania, then King and Emperor, was his one and only son.

Around 856, King Louis the German deposed of Margrave Ratbod because of his connections with the hostile duke of Great Moravia. Ratbod was the military commander of the Eastern March, which included Carantania and Pannonia. After his dismissal the King appointed Prince Carloman to the new commander, he was now the praefectus of the Eastern March. But Carloman too conspired against his father, the King, by banishing his counts, who were loyal to him, and replacing them with his own confidants. He also restored links with Rastislav, the duke of Great Moravia. Moreover, there were also other disputes between him and the King. However, father and son always reconciled.

Since 861 Prince Kocel was the sovereign in Lower Pannonia living in his princely residence Blatenski Kostel (also called Moosburg) located at lake Balaton (Plattensee), not far away from Blatograd. After 866, he disregarded the warnings of the Bavarian bishops and introduced the liturgy of the Old Slavonic Church, which was originally practiced in Moravia by St. Cyril and Methodius. We assume, that the praefectus Carloman did not remove Prince Kocel since he himself had strong ties with his common-in-law Slovenian wife and mother of his son Arnulf. Methodius advanced even to Archbishop of Pannonia, but in 870 the Bavarian bishops imprisoned him and suffocated his work. In 874 they further managed to have Prince Kocel vanish from the scene altogether.

In 876, King Louis the German died and was succeeded by his three sons. Carloman inherited Bavaria and Carantania (including Pannonia), but he again gave Carantania to his son Arnulf. The records of that time show that Carantania together with Pannonia was called regnum Carentano, i.e., Carantanian kingdom, because they were reigned by a member of the Carolingian clan.

In the following years, Duke Arnulf of Carantania proved to be a good and determined ruler. Around 880 a tremendous dispute arose between Carantania and Great Moravia. The fidgety Moravian ruler, Prince Svatopluk, was enormously influential in the Carantanian Eastern region (Austria). The dispute grew so serious that Svatopluk called the Hungarians for help, who in 881 for the first time appeared before Vienna. In 883 a proper war broke out between Great Moravia and Carantania. However, in 885, peace was made through the mediation of Charles III the Fat, Arnulf's uncle, King of the Eastern Franks.

Duke Arnulf, always very proud to be of Carolingian origin, felt continuously troubled by his uncle's (King Charles III the Fat) way of compromising with the enemies of the Carolingian empire. Instead of challenging them to fight, he bribed them with gold, in particular the Normans.

In 887, when the diet of the imperial princes gathered in Treves, Duke Arnulf appeared right then and there with a large army consisting of Carantanian and various Slav soldiers, in the sources literally called cum manu valida Noricorum et Sclavorum. He deposed of his uncle and constrained the present princes to elect him King of the Eastern Franks.

In the following year in 888, Arnulf, the new bearer of the royal crown, gave his hand in marriage to the daughter of Ernst, a Bavarian nobleman. He also visited his Carantanian Slovenian countrymen in the same year and spent Christmas among them at castle Krnski Grad. At the same time it also meant farewell from his native Carantania. Margrave Luitpold (Leopold), Arnulf's cousin from his mother's line, was appointed to lord-lieutenant of Carantania.

The Carantanians took great pride in King Arnulf, their fellow-countryman, and they continued to support him, when he needed them in his campaigns. From all the battles he fought, the one on the river Dyle in Belgium, defeating the Normans in 891, was the most famous.

The noblemen from the West also offered Arnulf the crown of the Western Franks. He did not accept their offer and insisted that the crown should be given to Odo, Count of Paris. The latter paid homage to Arnulf as his vassal, and so did the other Carolinian reguli:
Ramnulf of Aquitania, Rudolf of Upper Burgundy, Louis of Provence, and Berengar, King of Italy.

In this way, Arnulf of Carantania paved the ground for a new European Community. It was not anymore the Frankish Empire as it used to be under Charlemagne, but rather more, a confederation of autonomous kingdoms and dukedoms joined in a Christian community under the imperial crown.

Margrave Guido of Spoleto was the only one, who did not pay homage to Arnulf. Moreover, in Rome he usurped all the power, and in 891 he forced Pope Stephen V to crown him as Emperor. The later Pope Formosus called Arnulf for help, because also he was forced to repeat the crowning of Guido and his son Lambert as co-regents.

In 894, Arnulf arrived with his army in North Italy. Nevertheless, he could not continue his march towards Rome, because Guido of Spoleto had the passes closed on the Apennines. In Pavia, Arnulf received his duly homage as King of Italy, he left his illegitimate son Ratold as vice-King behind, and returned home over the Alps.

After Guido's death, in 895, Arnulf arrived in Rome and was crowned Emperor on February 22, in 896. Soon afterwards he was compelled to return to his country because of his increasing lameness. He lived and remained a very active ruler for another three years. On the 8th of December 899 he died and was interred in the Abbey of St. Emmeram in Regensburg. Arnulf had appointed as successor to the throne his only legitimate son Louis the Child (893 - † 911 ), who was solemnly anointed and crowned in 900, in the town of Forchheim. But the absence of his powerful hand was felt much to soon, especially, when the Hungarians started to turn this opportunity to their advantage. Already in 900 they occupied Pannonia and established themselves there. The young king could not retain them.

http://carantha.net/88ebd2b0.jpg
Arnulf of Carantania (896 - 899) and his son Louis IV the Child (900 - 911) were the last Carolingian kings of the the Eastern Franks

[Zrinski]

Yeah, they teach us at school that he was 'Posavski', however he was never called that way before 19th century. Better name would be Panonski.

Who decides what would be better? You? :rofl:

http://www.hervardi.com/slovenijeh.php

Sorry, I don't have an English version. Do you understand Slovenian? It's an interesting study made by pro-Slovenian, patriotic nationalist organization Hervardi.

I have more articles on this question, I'll translate some of them and post them here later.

I do understand Slovenian and I have read what is written on that site already. All I have to say is that it's a bunch of crap. Claiming the general term 'Sclavonia', 'Sclavunia', 'Sclavinia' as "Slovenian" is pure idiocy and nothing but revisionism. Claiming that Slavonia is actually "Slovenian land" is just hilarious....thats all I am going to say. :p

Of course it was.

No it wasn't. Pannoania was a Roman province which was later inahbited by various peoples and divided between them...and still is.

Also I don't see how posting bio of Arnulf has anything to do with this. The man was Frankish/German and ruled/controlled Frankish principality of Carantania.

And also you should stop copy-paste things from that site. Using chauvinistic site for a reference is not something that will help you in the debate...at least not with me and not on this site.

[Watzy]

@SN

You're full of shit and you don't know shit about Croatian history.

Ljudevid was a nephew of Borna c.810 - 821., Dux of Dalmatian Croatia and he ruled from Siscia/Sisak - the center of Pannonia Savia. His state was based in Pannonia Savia, not Caranthia. This fact was very well documented by Frankish sources, so how can 'Panonski' be a 'better' (more precise, more speciffic term) to describe Ljudevid than 'Posavski' - meaning 'of Savia's basin' ?!

Also, where do you found he was related to Caranthians/slovens in terms of kinship? All I can gather is that he was allied with your Caranthian/slovens against Franks. It's hardly enough to make a sloven bastard out of the pure-booded Croat duke.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Who decides what would be better? You? :rofl:

No, not me. The term 'Posavski' has nothing to do with Ljudevit.

revisionism.

Define revisionism.

Every patriot here can be called 'revizionist', as we don't agree with history that was written by bunch of pan-Slavist communist at the times of Yugoslavia. Germanics, Italians, Hungarians, southerner pan-Slavist.. they all tried to steal as much Slovenian land and history as possible.

Unfortunately many Slovenians lack patriotism, but that's our problem.

No it wasn't. Pannoania was a Roman province which was later inahbited by various peoples and divided between them...and still is.

No, mostly by Slovenians.

Also I don't see how posting bio of Arnulf has anything to do with this. The man was Frankish/German and ruled/controlled Frankish principality of Carantania.

He was half-German half-Slovene.

And also you should stop copy-paste things from that site. Using chauvinistic site for a reference is not something that will help you in the debate...at least not with me and not on this site.

The copy/paste was from carantha.net, hardly a chauvinistic site. Hervardi are also not chauvinistic, at least not anything more than any other Croat nationalist.

SLAVA SLOVENCEM!

[SlovenianNationalist]

@SN

You're full of shit and you don't know shit about Croatian history.

Maybe. On the other hand you don't know shit about Slovenian history.

Ljudevid was a nephew of Borna c.810 - 821., Dux of Dalmatian Croatia and he ruled from Siscia/Sisak - the center of Pannonia Savia. His state was based in Pannonia Savia, not Caranthia. This fact was very well documented by Frankish sources, so how can 'Panonski' be a 'better' (more precise, more speciffic term) to describe Ljudevid than 'Posavski' - meaning 'of Savia's basin' ?!

What does ruling from Sisek got anything to do with him being Croat? Sisek is a name of Slovenian origin btw.

I'll post more info about Ljudevit later.

[Watzy]

...you don't know shit about Slovenian history.

Unlike Serbs, slovens in Croatia don't have a history - not even a bad history since they never lived in Croatia to begin with.

What does ruling from Sisek got anything to do with him being Croat?

Being a blood-kin to Borna has a lot to do about him being a Croat, ruling from Sisak has a lot to do about him being named 'Posavski' instead of 'Pannonian' like you moronically suggested, and what makes him a Caranthian only sloven fantasy can tell.

Sisek is a name of Slovenian origin btw.

ROFL!
I don't have a clue what 'sisek' means, but Croatian city of Sisak (the same city Ljudevit ruled from) originates from Roman 'Siscia', not sloven 'sisek'. :p

Roman Mintmarks

"Official Roman coins from about the 4th century onwards show clear mintmarks indicating the city where the coin was minted...Siscia = SIS "

http://www.romancoins.info/Constans.jpg

http://www.romancoins.info/Mintmarks.html

This Roman name itself probably has autochthonous Illyrian roots just like entire Pannonia region, named after non-Caranthian Illyrian tribe 'Pannonii'.

[SlovenianNationalist]

Unlike Serbs, slovens in Croatia don't have a history - not even a bad history since they never lived in Croatia to begin with.

Never lived in Croatia? Depends what you consider as 'Croatia'.

Being a blood-kin to Borna has a lot to do about him being a Croat, ruling from Sisak has a lot to do about him being named 'Posavski' instead of 'Pannonian' like you moronically suggested, and what makes him a Caranthian only sloven fantasy can tell.

Historical sources claim that he was 'Slovenian', his original name was Hlodvik, he became Ljudovit later. 'Posavski' is the name given to him by the Croats only in 20. century and has no historical source to proove it.

BTW it's funny how you claim he had 'Croat ancestry' and that makes him a Croat, when Zrinski tried to convince me that ancestry doesn't matter for being a member of one nation.

As you said he was a nephew of Borna. Where all his other ancestors Croats?

Anyway, I guess you have some kind of inferiority complex against Slovenia, that's why you use such primitive attacks and your word 'sloven' instead of the correct term. I guess you are just like any other southerner ('čefur').

[Watzy]

No, not me. The term 'Posavski' has nothing to do with Ljudevit.

That's like saying the name of Charles II of Navarre has nothing to do with Navarre. You are an idiot.

we don't agree with history that was written by bunch of pan-Slavist communist at the times of Yugoslavia. Germanics, Italians, Hungarians, southerner pan-Slavist.. they all tried to steal as much Slovenian land and history as possible.

It's the slovens that are thieves and they indeed they have a serious motive for theft. There's no history without statehood, and nations without state are non-historic nations - just like slovens were until 90's.

You don't have it, so you have to invent it or 'borrow' it from the others.

It's somewhat similar to building that artificial island - since chances of getting a real one from Croatia are dim, even a fake one can serve it's purpose. lol Slovens rape history, just as they rape mother nature in this case. :rofl:

Unfortunately many Slovenians lack patriotism, but that's our problem.

Nonsense. An expansionist appetite is not a 'quality' that slovens are lacking - only strength and balls to make the plans real. ;)

No, mostly by Slovenians.

ROFL!

He was half-German half-Slovene.

Maternal line is irrelevant by Frankish or any other feudal hereditary right of contemporary Christendom. He was for all practical purposes a German - a Frank to be more precise and a Frankish feudal lord that ruled over sloven serfs and banged their wenches. :rofl: :hump:

[Zrinski]

No, not me. The term 'Posavski' has nothing to do with Ljudevit.

LOL. Come on...even the very chauvinistic site you refer to seems to disagree with you. :p

Define revisionism.

You take a piece of information, a fact, and twist and spin it around so that it suits your agenda.

No, mostly by Slovenians.

WTF?! Roman province of Panonia was inhabited by Slovenians? :rofl:
Please stop embarrassing yourself.... :p

Even in later times, early medieval this region had ambiguous Slavic population. If anything they weren't Slovenians...mainly various Slavic tribes/people mixed with Magyars, Celtic and Illyric remnants, etc. influenced by Croatian nobility and rulers.

He was half-German half-Slovene.

He was German as they get.

The copy/paste was from carantha.net, hardly a chauvinistic site. Hervardi are also not chauvinistic, at least not anything more than any other Croat nationalist.

A site which claims that Medjimurje was "stolen" from Slovenians is nothing but chauvinistic. And whats funny thats not the most ridiculous claim by them.

Sisek is a name of Slovenian origin btw.

Now you really outdid yourself....'Sisak' (or Slovenian 'Sisek') comes from the roman name 'Siscia'. Hilarious. :rofl:

[SlovenianNationalist]

It's the slovens that are thieves and they indeed they have a serious motive for theft. There's no history without statehood, and nations without state are non-historic nations - just like slovens were until 90's.

WTF are you talking about? We had a state before you.

You don't have it, so you have to invent it or 'borrow' it from the others.

It's somewhat similar to building that artificial island - since chances of getting a real one from Croatia are dim, even a fake one can serve it's purpose. lol Slovens rape history, just as they rape mother nature in this case. :rofl:

:rolleyes:

Nonsense. An expansionist appetite is not a 'quality' that slovens are lacking - only strength and balls to make the plans real. ;)

I don't have 'expansionist appetites', I'd just like to see Slovenia Slovenian.

Maternal line is irrelevant by Frankish or any other feudal hereditary right of contemporary Christendom.

It was perfectly legal under Slovenian law (Slavica lex).

From the times of Great Carantania,

Bertolda Koroškega po njegovi smrti ni nasledil njegov sin, ker je bil še mladoleten. Karantanski vojvod je postal Henrik, brat kralja Otona I.Velikega. Po slovenskem-karantanskem pravu (Slavica lex), ki je priznavalo tudi nasledstvo po materini strani je bila podelitev vojvodskega položaja Henriku povsem zakonita. Henrik I. Otonec je bil namreč iz rodbine Otonov.

[SlovenianNationalist]

LOL. Come on...even the very chauvinistic site you refer to seems to disagree with you. :p

:confused:

WTF?! Roman province of Panonia was inhabited by Slovenians? :rofl:
Please stop embarrassing yourself.... :p

I was thinking about Panonia at the time of Carantania.

Although it is possible that Pannonia was inhabited by Slovenians before that, consedering that Slovenians are descendants of Veneti.

http://www.hervardi.com/mape/slovenci_poselitev_julij_cezar.jpg

:)

A site which claims that Medjimurje was "stolen" from Slovenians is nothing but chauvinistic. And whats funny thats not the most ridiculous claim by them.

Why would that make them 'chauvinistic'?

Also, they have posted facts about Medmurje story.

Now you really outdid yourself....'Sisak' (or Slovenian 'Sisek') comes from the roman name 'Siscia'. Hilarious.

Just out of interest, what does 'Siscia' mean in Latin? Afaik nothing (I study Latin).

[Zrinski]

I was thinking about Panonia at the time of Carantania.

It was no different.


Although it is possible that Pannonia was inhabited by Slovenians before that, consedering that Slovenians are descendants of Veneti.

Slovenians didn't exist at that time.


Why would that make them 'chauvinistic'?
Also, they have posted facts about Medmurje story.

Medjimurje was never Slovenian...which is not hard to conclude since Slovenia exists only from 1918.


Just out of interest, what does 'Siscia' mean in Latin? Afaik nothing (I study Latin).

And?

[SlovenianNationalist]

Slovenians didn't exist at that time.

It depends whether Veneti theory is right or wrong.

Medjimurje was never Slovenian...which is not hard to conclude since Slovenia exists only from 1918.

Slovenia (Caranthania) was a state already in 6th century.

And?

So it's possible that it has Slovenian origin, not Latin (ie. 'Roman').

[Zrinski]

It depends whether Veneti theory is right or wrong.

Even if it is right it doesn't mean Veneti=Slovenians.

Slovenia (Caranthania) was a state already in 6th century.

Carantania was a Frankish vassal state, yes. Slovenia? As far as I know it was created in 1918. first as Drava Banovina and then in 1945. as Federal Republic of Slovenia.

So it's possible that it has Slovenian origin, not Latin (ie. 'Roman').

The name was used from periods of Roman Empire, what the hell are you talking about?!?! :duh:

[SlovenianNationalist]

Even if it is right it doesn't mean Veneti=Slovenians.

-------------

The name was used from periods of Roman Empire, what the hell are you talking about?!?! :duh:

As I said before, if Veneti are descendants of Slovenians (ie. 'Veneti theory'), than it makes perfect sense.

Carantania was a Frankish vassal state, yes. Slovenia?

No, it wasn't. It was independant for at least few hundred years. No historian denies than Carantania under Knez Borut, Knez Gorazd and Hotimir was not independant Slovenian state, although it was independant also later. I'll post some articles tomorrow.

[Zrinski]

As I said before, if Veneti are descendants of Slovenians (ie. 'Veneti theory'), than it makes perfect sense.

Veneti cannot be in any case descendants of Slovenians.

No, it wasn't. It was independant for at least few hundred years. No historian denies than Carantania under Knez Borut, Knez Gorazd and Hotimir was not independant Slovenian state, although it was independant also later. I'll post some articles tomorrow.

It first appeared as a tribal union of certain Frank 'Samo'. After his death Carantania then later became direct Frankish vassal. It was always tied with Franks. Furthemore claims that you had a state before Croats, even if we take that Carantania was exclusively proto-Slovenian (which was not), is not true since it was created in the 7th century at the same time first Crotian principalities came into being as well. Though I don't understand why it is so important to you.

And second, claim that it was the first Slavic state is wrong and ridiculous as we know there were Slavic states forming early as 4-5th century in area of modern Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and Russia. First noted by western sources? Perhaps. Though even here many would disagree with that, putting 'Great Moravia' in front.

[Ace Rimmer]

Užas! .........

[SlovenianNationalist]

Veneti cannot be in any case descendants of Slovenians.

Who are Slovenians then, if they are not Veneti?

It first appeared as a tribal union of certain Frank 'Samo'. After his death Carantania then later became direct Frankish vassal. It was always tied with Franks. Furthemore claims that you had a state before Croats, even if we take that Carantania was exclusively proto-Slovenian (which was not), is not true since it was created in the 7th century at the same time first Crotian principalities came into being as well. Though I don't understand why it is so important to you.

King Samo was a Slav, that's 100%. He was a Slavic merchant, who fought against Franks and because he was a good warrior, he became a king of some kind of Slavic 'union'. 'Plemenska zveza'. His kingdom didn't only consist of Carantania (Slovenia), but also several other Slavic ethnicities (see the map). He rulled his kindgom from Carantania.

http://www.promin.si/oblikovanje/images/rs_karantanija.gif

In the mean time, Carantanian ruler was Valuk (Wallucus).

After Samo died, his union collapsed. Knez Borut became a ruler of Carantania, which was not in any way under Franks, though they were allies with Bavaria, which was under Franks. Borut sent his nephew Hotimir and his son Gorazd to Bavaria as hostages and they were raised in Christian faith. Carantania became loyal to Franks, however they had their own rulers and laws. Franks were just defenders of Christian faith in Europe and they did help Carantians to crush pagan rebelion. Later in 9th century, when Ljudevit's rebelion was crushed, Carantania lost it's independence, at least that is what most historians claim.

BTW I've seen you agree with 'Slava Slovencem'?

[Watzy]

Never lived in Croatia? Depends what you consider as 'Croatia'.

Border between German empire and Croatia is older than millennium, so it shouldn't be so hard even for an idiot such as your self to notice where Germany ends and Croatia starts.

Historical sources claim that he was 'Slovenian', his original name was Hlodvik, he became Ljudovit later.

Than why are you hesitating to present these 'historical sources'? You might as well say his 'real' name was Janez or Bob. Should we take if for granted only because you say so?

'Posavski' is the name given to him by the Croats only in 20. century and has no historical source to proove it.

To prove what? That he was a Posavian duke? That's a basic fact you idiot! Are you on drugs or something?! Differences can be linguistic, not factual.

Croatian for "Ljudevit Posavski" = French "Liudewit, gouverneur de la Pannonie inférieure" = German "Liudewit von Siscia...in Pannonia inferior"

http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/nithard/anonyme.htm
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/grossmaehrisches_reich/pannonien.html

PANNONIA:

Pannonia Prima in the northwest, with capital in Savaria/Sabaria (Szombathely),
Pannonia Valeria in the northeast, with capital in Sopianae (Pécs),
Pannonia Savia in the southwest, with capital in Siscia (Sisak),
Pannonia Secunda in the southeast, with capital in Sirmium (Sremska Mitrovica)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Pannonia

BTW it's funny how you claim he had 'Croat ancestry' and that makes him a Croat, when Zrinski tried to convince me that ancestry doesn't matter for being a member of one nation.

He's 100% correct in this case. Nationalism is exclusively a product of bourgeois society. Western gentry frequently intermarried like no other class in Europe's history and politically identified with lands they posessed and seniors they served.

As you said he was a nephew of Borna. Where all his other ancestors Croats?

I don't think such statement can be proved since documents about his genealogy are not preserved. I do think however the possibility he had Caranthian relatives is equal to the possibility he had Latin, Frankish, Byzantine or Serb relatives.

Anyway, I guess you have some kind of inferiority complex against Slovenia

Despise and disgust are the right words.

, that's why you use such primitive attacks and your word 'sloven' instead of the correct term.

I already elaborated this question.

I guess you are just like any other southerner ('čefur').

Indeed I am, and a proud one too! I solidarize with all ex-Yu minorities in Slovenia, even with those I dislike. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-017.gif

[Zrinski]

Who are Slovenians then, if they are not Veneti?

Slovenians are Slovenians.
As for Veneti they could have been ancestors of both today Slovenians and people in Venice...however we will never know. I for one believe there is some truth in it, but Veneti could have not been descendants of Slovenians it could be only the other way around.

King Samo was a Slav, that's 100%.

Hey! The man was born basically in the heart of Frankish Empire for Gods sake...come on... :p

His kingdom didn't only consist of Carantania (Slovenia), but also several other Slavic ethnicities (see the map). He rulled his kindgom from Carantania.

Exactly...thats why claiming Carantania as something exclusively Slovenian is ridiculous. Not only was Carantania a state composed of various Slavic tribes but of non-Slavic tribes as well. It also laid the foundation for the future state (Duchy, Arch-duchy, Empire) of Austria.

After Samo died, his union collapsed. Knez Borut became a ruler of Carantania, which was not in any way under Franks, though they were allies with Bavaria, which was under Franks.

Allies with Bavaria? LOL! They were Bavarian vassals man, what are you talking about?!

BTW I've seen you agree with 'Slava Slovencem'?

Yes I did and I do. As I said I respect Slovenian people and I do accept you have roots in Carantania, but you are claiming some pretty ridiculous stuff here like the name 'Sclavonia'/'Sclavunia'/'Sclavinia' (etc.) which was a general name for all Slavs in early western text (later it stood for province/crown land of Slavonia). Or claiming Slavonia was "Slovenian land" though Slovenia as a term didn't even exist. Or so far the most ridiculous - that the name of the Roman city 'Siscia' (Sisak) is in origin Slovenian! Etc...

I also don't understand why you have to claim you supposedly had a state before Croats like you're on some ego trip...if I would want a pissing contest with you I could say that Croats had a state as early as 1 AD around Azov Sea and later in 4-5th century around Vistula region in modern Poland and Ukraine (White Croatia/Chrobatia). Come on...show some common sense...why are you so hostile all the time...

[SlovenianNationalist]

Indeed I am, and a proud one too! I solidarize with all ex-Yu minorities in Slovenia, even with those I dislike. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-017.gif

Well, that tells something about you. Sorry, but I ussualy try to avoid speaking with čefurji, so....

Slovenians are Slovenians.
As for Veneti they could have been ancestors of both today Slovenians and people in Venice...however we will never know. I for one believe there is some truth in it, but Veneti could have not been descendants of Slovenians it could be only the other way around.

I've read many books on this Veneti question, I can say that this theory makes more logic than Yugoslav one, that says we came from some swamps in 6th century.

Hey! The man was born basically in the heart of Frankish Empire for Gods sake...come on...

How do you know where he was born?:confused: No historical sources tell us that, he was a Slavic merchant and fought against Franks all his life.

Exactly...thats why claiming Carantania as something exclusively Slovenian is ridiculous. Not only was Carantania a state composed of various Slavic tribes but of non-Slavic tribes as well. It also laid the foundation for the future state (Duchy, Arch-duchy, Empire) of Austria.

You have mistaken Carantania with Samo tribal union, which was made of Carantania and some other countries. Carantania was, of course, Slovenian.

Samo ruled for 35 years, and under his reign a sort of Slavic Alliance was formed which extended from the River Elbe in the north to the Drava in the south. The Alliance united the Sorbs, Czechs, Slovaks (Moravians) and Slovenes (Carantanians). Fredegar also mentions that in the ninth year during the reign of the Frankish King Dagobert I (631 AD), Sclavi coinomento Winidi (Slavs or Veneti) plundered and killed numerous Frankish merchants, who were travelling through Samo's territory.

http://carantha.net/early_carantania__slovenia_.htm

Allies with Bavaria? LOL! They were Bavarian vassals man, what are you talking about?!

Where did you hear that?

You have some info here,

http://carantha.net/carantania.htm
http://carantha.net/great_carantania.htm

though Slovenia as a term didn't even exist

I prooved you it did. Even if you don't believe Sclavunia = Slovenia, protestants were using term Slovenci and Slovenija in 16th century.

[Zrinski]

How do you know where he was born?:confused: No historical sources tell us that, he was a Slavic merchant and fought against Franks all his life.

The 'Fredgard's chronicle' to which you yourself upon a bit lower says explicitly that he was "a Frank by birth [or nation] from the Senon[ag]ian province". Senonagian province means somewhere around Sens which was the very heart of the Frankish empire.

You have mistaken Carantania with Samo tribal union, which was made of Carantania and some other countries. Carantania was, of course, Slovenian.

I have not mistaken anything, read again what I wrote.

You have some info here,

http://carantha.net/carantania.htm
http://carantha.net/great_carantania.htm

You should stop posting and linking to this one-sides chauvinistic site. I have already proved and pointed out that it is a propagandist and revisionist site.

I prooved you it did. Even if you don't believe Sclavunia = Slovenia, protestants were using term Slovenci and Slovenija in 16th century.

No you did not. Show me one foreign source which refers to "Slovenians" or "Slovenia". And you usurping the general term 'Sclavunia'('Sclavonia/Sclavinia') is, as I already said, hilarious. :rofl:

[SlovenianNationalist]

[QUOTE]The 'Fredgard's chronicle' to which you yourself upon a bit lower says explicitly that he was "a Frank by birth [or nation] from the Senon[ag]ian province".

First time I hear about this. Source please.

You should stop posting and linking to this one-sides chauvinistic site. I have already proved and pointed out that it is a propagandist and revisionist site.

OK, now already Carantha.net is chauvinistic. Get real.

No you did not. Show me one foreign source which refers to "Slovenians" or "Slovenia". And you usurping the general term 'Sclavunia'('Sclavonia/Sclavinia') is, as I already said, hilarious. :rofl:

The word 'Slovenci' was surely in use in 16th century, when Slovenian Protestants wrote first Slovenian books.

Ever heard of Primož Trubar? He wrote a famous 'Nagovor Slovencem'.

Vsem Slovencem gnado mir, milost inu pravo spoznane božje skuzi Jezusa Kristusa prosim.

. . .

Kedar ta slovenski jezik se povsod glih inu v eni viži ne govori - drigači govore z dostimi besedami Kranjci, drigači Korošci, drigači Štajeri in Dolenci ter Bezjaki, drigači Krašovci inu Istrijani, drigači Krovati....

. . .

...te gmanjske kranjske preproste besede, katere vsaki dobri preprosti Slovenec lehku more zastopiti...

(16th century)

That's just from one book, I'm not really in the mood to write down whole texts, but the word 'Slovenec' was regurarly in use.

EDIT: I found predgovor on internet
http://www.ijs.si/lit/trubar57.html

.

I could provide you 1000 more quotes from that time, as every single Protestant used the term Slovenija, the same with Catholics later in counter-reformation. The term was widely in use.

[Zrinski]

First time I hear about this. Source please.

Fredgar's chronicle. Use Google.

OK, now already Carantha.net is chauvinistic. Get real.

It's not already but it always was. I pointed it to you from the first moment. For one thing I now know from where you get your ridiculous ideas such as 'Battle of Sisak' being "Slovenian victory" or that the name 'Sisak' comes from Slovenian word. :rofl:

Why don't you find some real, objective source instead of revisionist propaganda.

I could provide you 1000 more quotes from that time, as every single Protestant used the term Slovenija, the same with Catholics later in counter-reformation. The term was widely in use.

Provide me with one foreign source from that time referring to 'Slovenia' or 'Slovenians'.

[Watzy]

For one thing I now know from where you get your ridiculous ideas such as 'Battle of Sisak' being "Slovenian victory"

I have a hunch you shall be soon enlightened how Ruprecht von Eggenberg was a sloven too. *His real name was Lojzek, only Germans called him Ruprecht. :D

or that the name 'Sisak' comes from Slovenian word. :rofl:

Sure it does... Romans were Venet slovens, so they must have used some yodeling word for Sisak. :D

[SlovenianNationalist]

It's not already but it always was. I pointed it to you from the first moment. For one thing I now know from where you get your ridiculous ideas such as 'Battle of Sisak' being "Slovenian victory"

Actually, that's how they learn us in schools.

Why don't you find some real, objective source instead of revisionist propaganda.

What is an 'objective source'? "Slovenian history" written by some commie pan-Slavists?

Provide me with one foreign source from that time referring to 'Slovenia' or 'Slovenians'.

Why would that be important? Slovenians refer themselves as Slovenci and that means term Slovenija was already in use.

[Watzy]

You should stop posting and linking to this one-sides chauvinistic site. I have already proved and pointed out that it is a propagandist and revisionist site.

Who cares what they write? According to Caranthian Jörg Haider, slovens are Vend trash.

As soon as Germany get's fully recovered they shall end up screwed from north and from south. http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/I-hate-Xmas.gif

[SlovenianNationalist]

:rolleyes: Yeah right, just like they 'screw us' in 1918.

Koroška je Slovenska!

[Zrinski]

Trst je naš!!! :D

[Watzy]

"A lion, worn out with years and powerless from disease, lay on the ground at the point of death. A Boar rushed upon him, and avenged with a stroke of his tusks a long-remembered injury. Shortly afterwards the Bull with his horns gored him as if he were an enemy. When the Ass saw that the huge beast could be assailed with impunity, he let drive at his forehead with his heels. The expiring Lion said, "I have reluctantly brooked the insults of the brave, but to be compelled to endure such treatment from thee, a disgrace to Nature, is indeed to die a double death." (Aesop)

+ + +

Vulturous cowardice and treachery of vend maggots against dying Danubian empire and it's individual nations is well remembered. :bbbat: