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Boleslaw
10-21-2006, 03:45 AM
Happy days are here again![ :D

http://ncregister.com/site/article/376/

Rome Reaches Out to Tridentine Mass Followers


BY EDWARD PENTIN

Register Correspondent

October 22-28, 2006 Issue

Posted 10/19/06 at 7:00 AM

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI is moving to facilitate a more widespread celebration of the pre-Vatican II Mass in Latin.

Only a month after the Pope’s decision to create a new institute to accommodate former members of the schismatic Society of St. Pius X, Vatican officials indicated the Holy Father plans to release a document promoting celebration of the Tridentine Mass. Catholic News Service reported Oct. 11 that Pope Benedict will expand permission to use the Tridentine Mass, the pre-Vatican II rite favored by traditionalist groups, said an informed Vatican source.

Vatican watchers say the Pope’s intentions are clear: to make the Tridentine Mass a normal part of Church life throughout the world, highlighting the reality that the Second Vatican Council did not intend to cast aside 2,000 years of liturgical tradition.

The Holy Father is expected to issue a document motu proprio (on his own initiative), which will address the concerns of “various traditionalists,” said the CNS source, who asked not to be named.

Other sources told the Register that the motu proprio will be published in November, probably as part of the long-anticipated post-synodal document on the Eucharist.

Rome’s Il Giornale newspaper reported Oct. 11 that the decree would allow priests to celebrate Mass in Latin without having to seek permission of local bishops.

A source close to Benedict confirmed the Il Giornale report late Wednesday, saying that he could issue the document by the end of November in a bid to heal a “rupture” between Church tradition and the modern worship that has come in the wake of the Second Vatican Council.


Benedict’s Perspective


Benedict has a long-standing commitment to renewing liturgical Latin. During his tenure as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger repeatedly emphasized that it was a mistake to claim that the Second Vatican Council had cast aside the liturgical use of Latin.

“This is another of those cases, which are all too frequent in recent years, where there is a contradiction between, on the one hand, what the council actually says … and on the other hand, the concrete response of particular clerical circles,” Cardinal Ratzinger said in his 1985 book-length interview, “The Ratzinger Report.”

The Second Vatican Council’s 1963 constitution on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium (This Sacred Council), states clearly that “the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites” (No. 36).

It also states, “In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office” (No. 101).

In 1984, Pope John Paul II first made it possible for groups of the faithful to worship according to the old rite under certain conditions. In 1991, the Vatican established more generous guidelines encouraging bishops to grant permission and retaining just one basic condition: that those seeking the old Mass form must also accept the validity of the new rite, the Novus Ordo (New Ordinary of the Mass).


Traditionalist Institute


Pope Benedict’s other recent action with respect to the Latin Mass — the creation last month of a new institute for former members of the Society of St. Pius X — has been welcomed by traditionalists, caused controversy in France and possibly changed the nature of Vatican negotiations with the society.

With a papal decree issued Sept. 8, the Feast of the Birth of Mary, four priests and a seminarian who once belonged to the society founded by the late excommunicated Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre became the founding members of the Good Shepherd Institute in Bordeaux, France.

This new association allows the priests to return to communion with the Church and celebrate according to the 1962 version of the Roman Missal.

The priests will use their own parish church of St. Eloi but they will not be able to celebrate the 1962 liturgy anywhere else in the diocese.

The Vatican says the institute has been established as a “pastoral measure” and will have a trial period of five years.

Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard of Bordeaux said “the Pope himself made the decision” as part of a process of reconciliation.


Chilly Reaction


The Society of St. Pius X is opposed to liturgical and doctrinal reforms of the Second Vatican Council, and its four bishops have been under the penalty of excommunication since 1988.

Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated four Society of Saint Pius X bishops in 1988, in direct violation of the orders of Pope John Paul II. With that act, Lefebvre and the four bishops excommunicated themselves from the Catholic Church. The Vatican declared the ecclesial disobedience an act of schism.

Two of the priests who have returned to communion through the Good Shepherd Institute, Abbot Philippe Laguérie and Father Paul Aulagnier, fell out with Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the Society of St. Pius X, in 2004.

Both priests were unwilling to return to the society or celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass in normal use in the Church today, so a body such as the Good Shepherd Institute was the only option available for them to regain communion with Rome.

The St. Pius X Society res**ponse to the Good Shepherd initiative was chilly. In a Sept. 8 statement, it said that “it cannot accept as its own a communitarian solution in which the Tridentine Mass would be confined to a special status.”

The statement added, “The Mass of a 2,000-year-old tradition must possess full and entire rights of citizenship within the Church. It is not a privilege reserved for a few, but a right for all the priests and faithful in the universal Church.”

The society also pointed out that the establishment of the institute is not unprecedented, and drew attention to the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, the Society of St. John-Marie Vianney in Campos, Brazil, and the Institute of St. Philip Neri in Berlin.

When reports emerged about Pope Benedict’s plan to encourage the celebration of Mass in Latin, the St. Pius X Society reacted much more favorably.

“It’s an important first step” toward reconciliation, said Father Marc Nelly, an aide to Bishop Fellay. He noted, however, that that group considers the celebration of Mass in local languages incompatible with the use of the Latin Mass.


‘Outstretched Hand’


Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for Clergy and head of the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission set up by John Paul II to facilitate the return to ecclesial communion for St. Pius X members, told I Media news agency Sept. 21 that the creation of the Good Shepherd Institute was “accomplished under the sign of reconciliation and of full communion.”

But reconciliation with the society as a whole, Cardinal Castrillon said, was a very separate reality. “They are on different levels and require different paths,” he said.

In an Oct. 6 statement, Cardinal Ricard of Bordeaux indicated that the purpose of the institute was specifically to lay the foundation for possible reconciliation.

“The decision must be placed in relation to the desire of Pope Benedict XVI, which he has expressed several times, to offer a gesture of welcome with respect to those who followed Archbishop Lefebvre,” the cardinal said. “The Pope knows that through history and as years pass, schisms harden and the chances for reconciliation diminish, each following their own way.”

Said Cardinal Ricard, “The creation of this institute is, therefore, a sign of an outstretched hand, of an invitation to overcome suspicion and to start a dialogue in a more fraternal spirit.”

(CNS, RNS and Register staff contributed to this article.)


Edward Pentin

writes from Rome.

Felix the Cat
10-27-2006, 10:52 PM
Didn't priests in the past also say mass with their backs to the congregation?

Björn
10-27-2006, 11:13 PM
Although no Christian, I thought it was bs to translate the mass out of latin. Latin is almost the sacred language of Christianity you could say.

Didn't priests in the past also say mass with their backs to the congregation?

yes the idea was you were actually speaking to god I guess. There's a good example of a traditional mass in the movie Luthar.

Hlinkova Garda
11-12-2006, 12:12 AM
The latin mass is is the true Mass and as of late the only real oppposition
in europe to its return has been from the from the the french

I got this from a Trad-Cath site:
Nov. 10 (CWNews.com) - Although French Catholic bishops have said that the faithful would oppose wider use of the Tridentine rite, a poll of French Catholics has found that nearly two-thirds would like to have the choice of attending a traditional Latin Mass.

When asked whether Catholics should have a choice between the Novus Ordo Mass and a traditional liturgy, 65% of French Catholics answered that they should, while another 22% said they did not care; only 13% opposed the idea.

Among the 1,000 people surveyed, 60% said that they would attend a Mass celebrated in Latin with Gregorian chant, at least occasionally. On the other hand, in an apparently contradictory response, 51% of the respondents said that they would either "rarely" or "never" attend a Mass celebrated in the traditional rite.

The survey was conducted by the CSA Institute, an established French polling firm, on behalf of the Catholic group Paix Liturgique

Apologist
11-12-2006, 01:38 AM
Didn't priests in the past also say mass with their backs to the congregation?


Yes, there are several major differences between the Novus Ordo Mess and the Mass of All Times.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1969ottoviani.html

However, in short, I'll list a few of the reasons why Traditionalists are disgusted with the New Mess.

1) Saying the mass in the vernacular destroys the ideal sense of consolidarity and mysticism harbored by the uniform Ecclessiastical Latin.

2) The priest facing ad populum as opposed to ad orientam makes the mass Priestocentric as opposed to Christocentric. (Jesus is in the tabernacle, after all.) Also, the priest being ad populum essentially makes the priest turn his back on Jesus almost the entire mass.

3) The message of the mess is ambiguous. For example...

A) The New mass says "Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again" as the mystery of Faith, whereas the Old Mass is very clear: Transubstantiation is, in fact, the mystery of Faith.

B) 3/4 of the memorial acclamations seem to imply that transubstantiation didn't even occur. "When we eat this...bread?"

4) The Old Mass really stresses the element of Sacrifice, whereas the New Mess just glosses over it.

Keystone
11-21-2006, 08:59 PM
I wouldn't want the Latin Mass to be forced on anyone. Many of the folks who lived during both eras were glad to be rid of it. I would rather see a standard of church architecture and decorum. Modern RCC box churches are abhorrent. The Latin Mass celebrated in these things would be strikingly weird.

Berianidze
11-21-2006, 09:02 PM
Perun, I might have been completely oblivious, but I thought you were Ukrainian Orthodox? And if so, why does the happenings of the Catholic church excite you so?

Hlinkova Garda
11-21-2006, 11:09 PM
I wouldn't want the Latin Mass to be forced on anyone. Many of the folks who lived during both eras were glad to be rid of it. I would rather see a standard of church architecture and decorum. Modern RCC box churches are abhorrent. The Latin Mass celebrated in these things would be strikingly weird.

I AGREE In so far as Armerica anyway the churches there would have to be gutted, at the least their alters. hell some dont even have kneelers

Keystone
11-21-2006, 11:34 PM
I AGREE In so far as Armerica anyway the churches there would have to be gutted, at the least their alters. hell some dont even have kneelers
Exactly so.

Here is a pic of my boyhood church from a few years ago:

http://www.mostholynameofjesusparish15212.org/MHNpictures/Church/frchurch.jpg

The marble sanctuary walls and floors are now covered with wood paneling and carpet. The high altar---gone. The beautiful brass communion rail---gone. Murals---painted over. Statues of Mary and Joseph---gone.

It looks like a big basement family room.

Hlinkova Garda
11-22-2006, 04:12 AM
ITS DISGUSTING Its like the Pope has no idea whats been going on. its more then just the Mass the entire church has changed. so called sunday school has become little more then Prot style bible study and confession is a joke its like a f**kin' counseling session. So he gives the people back the true Mass
big deal its like being given a beautfully wraped preasent that you have been waiting for only to find the box inside is empty

On the other hand I hope he does "free up" local Priests to say the true Mass
once the faithful get a taste they will want more then an empty box
and orders like the SSPX will continue to grow

Boleslaw
11-24-2006, 05:56 PM
Perun, I might have been completely oblivious, but I thought you were Ukrainian Orthodox? And if so, why does the happenings of the Catholic church excite you so?
No Ive never been Orthodox. Im Ukrainian Catholic. We have the same rites and rituals of the Orthodox, but obey the Pope and not the Patriarch.

Hlinkova Garda
11-24-2006, 06:29 PM
No Ive never been Orthodox. Im Ukrainian Catholic. We have the same rites and rituals of the Orthodox, but obey the Pope and not the Patriarch.

What are your views on Fr.Basil Kovpak and the Society of Saint Josaphat

Boleslaw
11-24-2006, 07:42 PM
I must admit I never heard of him before.

Hlinkova Garda
11-24-2006, 11:01 PM
I must admit I never heard of him before.



Basicly they refuse to make modernist changes to the Uki-Rite
not unlike the Trad-Catholics are doing now


http://www.papastronsay.com/Ukraine.htm
:link: :link:

Boleslaw
11-26-2006, 04:41 PM
Ahhh in that case, then chances are they have my general sympathies. Although then again, Vatican II has helped the Eastern rites reclaimed much of their lost heritage due to centuries of Latinisation.

Apologist
12-01-2006, 02:47 PM
Although then again, Vatican II has helped the Eastern rites reclaimed much of their lost heritage due to centuries of Latinisation.

Latinisation? You celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom, which is usually celebrated either in Greek or the Vernacular. No? How do you latinise that? I am not even sure it has a standard Latin translation.

Boleslaw
12-01-2006, 05:06 PM
Over the centuries, many aspects of the Latin rite was incorporated into the Eastern rite practices. This especially happened with Ukrainian Catholicism due to the domination of the Polish.

Apologist
12-01-2006, 06:41 PM
Such as? Example?