Sonderkommando Shaul Chazan on Emptying the Gas Chambers

[Globus]

Can you describe the work at Crematorium II [III]?

At Crematorium II, everyone had a specific job. The work took place in two shifts: night shift and day shift. Each shift was twelve hours long. I worked in the undressing room and also removed bodies from the gas chamber.

The Germans rushed the victims into the undressing room and beat anyone who lagged behind. They left no time for reflection. “Move it! Move it! Move It!” Those were the only words you could hear there. They didn’t give anyone a moment to wonder where he was. Anyone who got there couldn’t think at all. The undressing room was underground; it had benches and hangers. Everyone who’d arrived was told they had to hang up the clothes and remember where they’d hung them. They said that so no one would imagine what was coming. The people undressed, crossed the room, and filed into the gas chamber one after another.

Where were you as the people undressed?

We were in the undressing room. There were Germans there too. They stood there with batons and moved the people along. The Germans didn’t allow us to talk with the people because we might disclose something to them. After everyone had choked to death on the gas, we were able to start working.

Did people occasionally refuse to undress and insist on keeping some of their clothes on?

It certainly could have happened, but I didn’t see it. They were taken to the gas chamber and that was that. The Germans beat them and shouted at them as they went, so it all happened at record speed.

Please describe a day in your working life, from morning to evening.

Sometimes I had to work with people who’d already put in twelve hours straight and had actually finished their shift. The job was only half done; half of the gas chamber room was still full and I had to drag the bodies out. When we finished, we poured water onto the floor of the room, cleaned out remaining Zyklon crystals that had been dropped in from above—through the latticework shafts—and the gas chamber was tidy and ready for use again.

In the meantime, a transport came in from the other side and by then I was stuck there for another eight hours—after I’d already worked four hours to finish the work that remained after the previous transport had been killed off. When the transport came, the people were led down to the undressing room. The gas chamber was clean by this time, the ventilation was working according to regulations, there was no odor, and they were taken to the gas chamber. After the doors were closed, the ventilation was turned off and the people began to notice that they were about to die. By then, however, there was nothing they could do. It was all over.

[…]

Please describe the gas chamber.

The gas chamber at Crematorium II [III] was underground. It had gray walls and a gray ceiling. The floor was concrete. The chamber was large enough for a transport of twenty-five hundred people if not more. The transports were always led into the gas chamber in one go. They pushed everyone in. They looked like shower rooms. They had a ventilation system that created a flow of air. There were showerheads in the ceiling, next to each other. The whole ceiling was full of showerheads. They were for “disinfection”, the people were told. Everyone who entered the chamber really thought he was going to take a shower. But not a drop of water came out of those showerheads. The people were packed in until the gas chamber was full. The door was locked after everyone was inside.

What happened after the door was closed?

After the door was closed, the ventilation was turned off. Then some Germans rolled up in a car that had a Red Cross emblem on it. The cans with the gas were in the car. One of the Germans put on a mask and threw the gas in from above the chamber—the contents of one can through one window, the contents of the second through the next, and so on. What kind of gas was it? It looked like bits of gravel. After a few seconds or a few minutes—our brains weren’t working very well because of what was happening there—everyone was dead. As soon as they’d died, the door was opened and we had to run for our lives. Sometimes there were still residues of toxic gas there and we might choke if we’d inhaled it.

How many doors did the gas chamber have?

One door. The people entered the chamber through it and we used it to remove their bodies. The door was a little larger than the door of a house. A heavy door made of iron.

Were women and men together in the gas chamber?

Everyone was together, whole families, layer upon layer of them. They were always all together.

Could people move around freely in the gas chamber?

Absolutely not! It wasn’t possible, and no one could get out. There wasn’t enough room. The people were packed up against each other like sardines.

Were you often inside the chamber?

Yes, yes, regularly.

You said that the gas was thrown in through openings in the ceiling. Did it fall straight to the floor or onto the people’s head?

No, no. There were several openings. A latticework shaft came down from each opening. The mesh was made of perforated metal; it ran from the window in the ceiling to the floor. And the gas, in the form of little pellets, was thrown down the hollow shaft. The smell spread. That was the gas.

Did the shaft reach the floor?

Almost. A small space was left so that you could clean there. We poured water on the floor and swept up what remained of the pellets. We always poured water there; that made it easier to drag and pull the corpses along the floor and to clean up the feces and the filth left by the victims.

The Germans knew exactly how to design the gas chamber with maximum efficiency. Even if they’d left the people there for a whole hour without gas, everyone would have suffocated. It was enough to close the door. The room was hermetically sealed. The walls were made of concrete; there was no way for fresh air to come in, nothing. The ventilation system made it possible to enter the chamber without risk of choking.

How did the ventilation system work?

The ventilation was installed in the walls. You wouldn’t notice it; all you could feel was the chill. You could hardly hear it. There was a metal cover with openings and cold air came in almost the entire length of the wall. The ventilation worked all the time; it was turned off only when the gas was thrown in. The Germans did a very effective job of camouflage. They considered it supremely important to maintain a mantle of secrecy until the last moment. Perfect deception.

Was it dark there, or was the chamber illuminated after the people were packed in?

There was lighting; there had to be since the Germans looked down to see whether everyone had died. So the people stood in the light. The window in the door was pretty large.

When the SS men opened the shaft from overhead and threw in the gas, could the people see that something was happening, that something was being thrown in?

All you could notice was the pungent smell of the gas as it spread. Then the screaming began. Everyone was inside, the door was closed, no ventilation, and then they began to sense the gas. Only at that moment did the people realize that they’d been tricked.

Could you hear the people screaming?

I remember that they prayed. I often heard the prayer “Shema Yisrael.” There wasn’t much left to say, not much more than “Shema.” But no one heard, no one saw. I often told myself, “Where should the wonders and miracles take place if not here and now?” But nothing happened. It wasn’t a matter of ten people; it was an entire people. Wonders and miracles were definitely needed there, but nothing happened.

How long did it take until the door of the gas chamber was opened again?

The door was opened after the SS men checked to make sure that everyone was really dead. But you couldn’t go near then, because there was still active gas in the air. It endangered the lives of anyone who stood there. The door was opened, the SS man backed away, and then the ventilators were turned on and the door stayed open for half an hour. The gas wafted away and we could begin to work.

What did you see at the moment the door of the gas chamber was opened?

I saw the corpses, dead people standing like statues. The odor was horrible, since the people had lost control of their bowels out of sheer fright.

Did the bodies have a special color?

I didn’t notice that. We didn’t think about the people; we thought about the air. If we thought about the people, about the place where we were, we could have gone insane at once.

Did it ever happen that someone was still alive after the door of the gas chamber was opened?

I never encountered any such thing. In my opinion, it couldn’t have happened. Everything was sealed and the gas couldn’t seep out.

After a few days, did you become indifferent to the sight of the gas chamber being opened?

I’d stopped being human by then. If I’d been human, I couldn’t have endured it for even one minute. We kept going because we’d lost our humanity.

Did it ever happen that people who waited their turn outside the gas chamber were eventually murdered elsewhere?

When the gas chamber filled up and ten or twenty people still remained outside, all naked, they were taken upstairs to a place near the furnaces that looked like a guard’s booth and were all shot in the back of the neck by a handgun with a silencer.

[…]

Half an hour after the gas chamber door was opened and the ventilation was turned on, we began to work. We opened the windows in the ceiling and began to remove the bodies. Each of us did his own job. I worked with the bodies.

I apologize for asking you to go into such detail. Exactly what did you do?

We began to take out the bodies. At first we didn’t know exactly how. The bodies were pressed to each other, stuck to each other like sardines. Then they brought us a long pole, a pitchfork, and explained, “Grab them by the loose skin and tug. That way you’ll manage to remove the whole body.” And that’s just what we did: we removed the bodies with pitchforks because it couldn’t be done otherwise. The gassing made the bodies stick to each other as if they’d been glued. We removed bodies without a moment’s break. As the gas chamber slowly emptied out, we had more room to maneuver. We poured water on the concrete floor to make it more slippery and to make the bodies easier to drag.

Did all of you have to remove bodies from the gas chamber?

Yes, every prisoner carried one body each time. For lack of space, two men went in first. Afterwards, after a few bodies had been taken away, there was room for more people to enter and remove bodies. That’s how we divided the work among ourselves.

Who poured the water on the floor?

We did. Whenever we felt that the floor was dry, we turned on the tap.

What method did you use to remove the bodies?

One after another, body after body. One, two, one, two, one, two. It went slowly; it took hours. It wasn’t something you could do in a minute. It was like a warehouse full of crates that you have to take out, except that we removed bodies. Other than that, the whole thing worked the same way.

Did you have to use force to separate the bodies?

Yes, sometimes. We did almost everything with a pitchfork, not with our hands. The pitchfork made it easier to separate the bodies.

How long did it take to remove twenty-five bodies [twenty-five hundred pm] from the gas chambers?

Twelve hours, maybe even longer. I didn’t feel a thing; I thought I was dragging crates. We didn’t treat the corpses with kid gloves; we just pulled them as if they were inanimate objects.

How were the bodies delivered from the gas chambers to the furnaces?

To carry the bodies from the lower level, where the gas chamber was, to the furnaces, we needed an elevator. We packed six to eight bodies into the elevator, depending on the size of the bodies. The elevator went up to the furnaces, and there they were cremated.

Was it an electric elevator?

Yes, it was shaped like a large metal table on which the bodies were arranged. It was almost completely flat and it may have had walls on the sides. The elevator went a few meters up with its load of bodies and returned empty.

Please describe the cremation process.

We washed the bodies before cremating them. Cremation took place day and night. There, on the furnace floor, they developed a system: they put skinny bodies together with a fat body because fat speeded up the cremation process. It was harder with skinny bodies; the fire refused to burn. This is how they cremated bodies all the time—we removed the bodies from the gas chamber and they were cremated upstairs. Everyone had a specific job: before the cremation, they sheared the hair off the bodies, someone pulled out their teeth, and someone else removed rings and jewelry.

For the most part, however, you were in the group that removed the bodies from the chamber after the people suffocated…

That’s right, from the time I first joined the Sonderkommando until I left Auschwitz, dragging bodies was my main job. Other prisoners—I was not among them—worked at the furnaces. Gabai, for example, worked at the furnaces. He threw bodies into the fire as though it were a factory job.

Was cremation the last stage in the process?

Not entirely. Corpses were removed from the gas chamber around the clock. They were cremated upstairs and every two or three days we removed the bones from the furnaces. We dealt with this on days when no transports arrived. There was a warehouse full of bones there. First we had to smash the bones until they were no larger than pieces of gravel. All that remained of ten or twenty thousand people who’d come there over a two-week period was a little pile of gravel…Afterwards we took round wooden poles with handles and used them to pulverize the bones to dust. You wouldn’t believe it: thousands of people turning into a heap of dust.

Where was this work done?

Next to the furnaces on the ground floor, but outside, in a yard under a little roof. The warehouse of bones, where we worked, was there too. After we finished, we picked up the ashes and loaded them onto a truck.

We saw the transports arriving with their thousands of people, and all that remained of them the next morning were ashes. After a month, we saw the warehouse and its contents, the ashes of forty thousand human beings. That’s all that remained of so many people.

Did you know what the Germans did with the ashes of the people they’d murdered?

Every few days or once a week, a few German trucks with prisoners came by and took the ashes to the river to wipe out all the evidence. They say that somebody once asked what they were dumping into the river, and the answer was “fish food.” At first, we didn’t know what they’d do with the bones and they were disposed of in the crematorium compound. A deep pit was dug in the yard and the bones were dumped there until an order was given to remove all the bones from the pit in order to pulverize them. At that stage, we removed the bones from a deep pit in the compound of Crematorium II [III] and what remained of them was hauled away in a truck. That’s when they got the bright idea of throwing everything into the river and destroying all the evidence so that no one would see a thing.

We Wept Without Tears
Testimonies of the Jewish Sonderkommando from Auschwitz
Testimony of Shaul Chazan
Gideon Greif
Yale University Press
2005
p 267-268, 270-275

[Empress Cheesatine]

Can someone tell me how to separate false testimony from factual?

[Trojan]

Can someone tell me how to separate false testimony from factual?

It would require something called intellect ... :dance2:

[calvin]

"The gas chamber at Crematorium II [III] was underground. It had gray walls and a gray ceiling. The floor was concrete. The chamber was large enough for a transport of twenty-five hundred people if not more"

That's a lot of magical "fast drying" holocaust paint getting applied to soaking wet walls.

[Globus]

"The gas chamber at Crematorium II [III] was underground. It had gray walls and a gray ceiling. The floor was concrete. The chamber was large enough for a transport of twenty-five hundred people if not more"

That's a lot of magical "fast drying" holocaust paint getting applied to soaking wet walls.

And they had lot's of labor.

But know you have a sense of the procedure.

[calvin]

According to Daniel Bennahmias, re Krema II / III (The Holocaust Odyssey of Daniel Bennahmias, Sonderkommando, p. 46):

“Once the gas chamber had been cleared, it must be hosed free of all traces of blood and excrement - but mainly blood - and then it must be whitewashed with a quickdrying paint. This step is crucial, and it is done each time the gas chamber is emptied, for the dying have scratched and gouged the walls in their death throes. The walls are embedded with blood and bits of flesh, and none on the next transport must suspect that he is walking into anything other than a shower. This takes two or three hours”

According to Saul Chazan

“The gas chamber at Crematorium II [III] was underground. It had gray walls and a gray ceiling”

So they used greywash when Chazan was on shift and whitewash when Bennahmias was on shift? Chazan “forgot” to mention the "crucial" painting stage of this operation.

[Globus]

According to Daniel Bennahmias, re Krema II / III (The Holocaust Odyssey of Daniel Bennahmias, Sonderkommando, p. 46):

“Once the gas chamber had been cleared, it must be hosed free of all traces of blood and excrement - but mainly blood - and then it must be whitewashed with a quickdrying paint. This step is crucial, and it is done each time the gas chamber is emptied, for the dying have scratched and gouged the walls in their death throes. The walls are embedded with blood and bits of flesh, and none on the next transport must suspect that he is walking into anything other than a shower. This takes two or three hours”
According to Saul Chazan

“The gas chamber at Crematorium II [III] was underground. It had gray walls and a gray ceiling”

So they used greywash when Chazan was on shift and whitewash when Bennahmias was on shift? Chazan “forgot” to mention the "crucial" painting stage of this operation.

Please!!

You must realize how pathetic this approach is.

[Stick to the Facts]

According to Daniel Bennahmias, re Krema II / III (The Holocaust Odyssey of Daniel Bennahmias, Sonderkommando, p. 46):

“Once the gas chamber had been cleared, it must be hosed free of all traces of blood and excrement - but mainly blood - and then it must be whitewashed with a quickdrying paint. This step is crucial, and it is done each time the gas chamber is emptied, for the dying have scratched and gouged the walls in their death throes. The walls are embedded with blood and bits of flesh, and none on the next transport must suspect that he is walking into anything other than a shower. This takes two or three hours”

According to Saul Chazan

“The gas chamber at Crematorium II [III] was underground. It had gray walls and a gray ceiling”

So they used greywash when Chazan was on shift and whitewash when Bennahmias was on shift? Chazan “forgot” to mention the "crucial" painting stage of this operation.


If you think that this sort of a difference in testimony is of any significance you should read the depositions of any two witnesses in any random event to see what to expect from witnesses' recollections. Gray vs white?

[calvin]

"You must realize how pathetic this approach is?"

Why? You don't seem to realize how pathetic that response was.

[Globus]

"You must realize how pathetic this approach is?"

Why? You don't seem to realize how pathetic that response was.

There was nothing pathetic about it.

What shade of gray was it? How close to a dirty white was it? Do you know that whitewash can be easily tinted?

[Ahknaton]

The Germans knew exactly how to design the gas chamber with maximum efficiency.
...or did they?
That’s right, from the time I first joined the Sonderkommando until I left Auschwitz, dragging bodies was my main job.
We poured water on the concrete floor to make it more slippery and to make the bodies easier to drag.
Yes, every prisoner carried one body each time.
One after another, body after body. One, two, one, two, one, two. It went slowly; it took hours. It wasn’t something you could do in a minute. It was like a warehouse full of crates that you have to take out, except that we removed bodies.
I didn’t feel a thing; I thought I was dragging crates. We didn’t treat the corpses with kid gloves; we just pulled them as if they were inanimate objects.
To carry the bodies from the lower level, where the gas chamber was, to the furnaces, we needed an elevator. We packed six to eight bodies into the elevator, depending on the size of the bodies. The elevator went up to the furnaces, and there they were cremated.

Why didn't they use trolleys to remove the bodies? Roll the trolleys in, stack 6 to 8 bodies at a time onto the trolley and then wheel it to the elevator.

[calvin]

"What shade of gray was it? How close to a dirty white was it? Do you know that whitewash can be easily tinted?"

I might use that as my signature, thanks!

How "crucial" was it? How forgetful was Chazan? Where’s the evidence of repeated painting?

[Globus]

...or did they?

Yes, the did.

Why didn't they use trolleys to remove the bodies? Roll the trolleys in, stack 6 to 8 bodies at a time onto the trolley and then wheel it to the elevator.

But trolley's would have just made a crowded situation even worse, and they had lot's of labor.

[Globus]

"What shade of gray was it? How close to a dirty white was it? Do you know that whitewash can be easily tinted?"

I might use that as my signature, thanks!

Please do! We'll point to it as an example of quality of argumentation employed by Holocaust denial.

How "crucial" was it? How forgetful was Chazan? Where’s the evidence of repeated painting?

His testimony is evidence, silly boy.

[calvin]

"His testimony is evidence, silly boy"

Can you show the silly boy where Chazan mentions painting the gas chamber in his testimony Globby?

[Globus]

"His testimony is evidence, silly boy"

Can you show the silly boy where Chazan mentions painting the gas chamber in his testimony Globby?

Bennahmias, silly boy.

It is not the only testimony.

And do not play with the name.

[calvin]

Truly sad, anyone can simply scroll back to post No.14 and see that you are making an assertion about Chazan’s testimony Globby.

[Globus]

Truly sad, anyone can simply scroll back to post No.14 and see that you are making an assertion about Chazan’s testimony Globby.

No they can't.

What is truly sad is your weak effort to ignore evidence.

[Vindex]

Why should any person care about jews being removed, after all thier only jews.

[Grapple]

The job was only half done; half of the gas chamber room was still full and I had to drag the bodies out. When we finished, we poured water onto the floor of the room, cleaned out remaining Zyklon crystals that had been dropped in from above—through the latticework shafts—and the gas chamber was tidy and ready for use again.

Would not the first thing to do is remove the Zyklon pellets since they were designed to outgass over a few hours period when delousing? Instead they wait until the end which would mean that even with ventilation on they would still be poison entering the room. It does not make sense to turn on ventilation to get rid of HCN gas if the Zyklon B pellets are still in the room and outgassing.

If you waited for the Zyklon B to stop outgassing this would take several hours and would interfer with the whole mass gassing of tens of thousands a day.

[Globus]

Would not the first thing to do is remove the Zyklon pellets since they were designed to outgass over a few hours period when delousing?

The pellets were removed first.

He's talking about few that might have fallen through the grid. Not a problem.

Instead they wait until the end which would mean that even with ventilation on they would still be poison entering the room.

No, they do not wait until the end and the ventilation and a short waiting period rendered a few pellets harmless.

It does not make sense to turn on ventilation to get rid of HCN gas if the Zyklon B pellets are still in the room and outgassing.

You're just repeating the same irrelevant point.

[snip additonal repetition]

[calvin]

“Did the shaft reach the floor?

Almost. A small space was left so that you could clean there. We poured water on the floor and swept up what remained of the pellets. We always poured water there; that made it easier to drag and pull the corpses along the floor and to clean up the feces and the filth left by the victims

There are no gaps under either the inner or the outer columns in either of the diagrams on the website of the Holocaust History Project.

Do a google search for “zyklon introduction columns” for the relevant page.

Why would you need a gap to sweep up the remains of pellets when these pellets were contained in a retractable wire mesh device? At most you would get a sprinkling of dust at the base of the column, easily washed away with a bucket of water. Didn’t the authors of the Holocaust History project read Chazan’s testimony?

Kula’s testimony contradicts Chazan’s and Chazan’s contradicts Bennahmias’s testimony. Kula “forgot” about his column not reaching the floor and Chazan forgot what colour the gas chamber was. Nice work!

[Globus]

There are no gaps under either the inner or the outer columns in either of the diagrams on the website of the Holocaust History Project.

So what?

Do a google search for “zyklon introduction columns” for the relevant page.

I don't need to do a search. I'm very familiar with it.

Why would you need a gap to sweep up the remains of pellets when these pellets were contained in a retractable wire mesh device?

Well now, didn't the witness say some granules fell through the wire mesh?

At most you would get a sprinkling of dust at the base of the column, easily washed away with a bucket of water. Didn’t the authors of the Holocaust History project read Chazan’s testimony?

What you claim would be there, "at most" is irrelevant. It is just the traditional denier approach of creating imaginary scenarios about the evidence.

Kula’s testimony contradicts Chazan’s and Chazan’s contradicts Bennahmias’s testimony.

Only in a minor detail. So what?

Typical denier performance.

[Grapple]

The pellets were removed first.

He's talking about few that might have fallen through the grid. Not a problem.
No problem. The same Zyklon B which is suppose to kill a whole room of people in less then a half hour and these guys are removing bodies without getting rid of it?
No, they do not wait until the end and the ventilation and a short waiting period rendered a few pellets harmless.
Sure it says waiting till the end, they got rid of the bodies first and then got rid of the pellets
You're just repeating the same irrelevant point.
And you haven’t answered it.

Also only Krema II and III are suppose to have had these wire mesh insertion devices, the rest of the so-called gas chambers are described to have had the pellets dumped into the room. How do they get the still out gassing pellets out of room without first removing the bodies? You dump the pellet in, they fall onto the people, then to the ground, the people die and fall on top of the pellets which means that you can’t get the pellets out without removing the bodies so the room still has HCN outgassing for hours which prevents you from sending people in to clean up the room for hours which slows down your efficent “factories of death”

[calvin]

The paint job would slow them down a bit as well, what with Chazan and Bennahmias bitch fighting about whether to use the whitewash or the greywash.

[Globus]

No problem. The same Zyklon B which is suppose to kill a whole room of people in less then a half hour and these guys are removing bodies without getting rid of it?

No, the same Zyklon B which in sufficient quantity can do that. A few stray pellets long after they've been released, in an environment with substantial, ongoing ventilation, with gas masks available if necessary, is no problem whatsover.

Sure it says waiting till the end, they got rid of the bodies first and then got rid of the pellets

Obviously. But not until the end of gaseous release.

And you haven’t answered it.

Of course I did.

Also only Krema II and III are suppose to have had these wire mesh insertion devices, the rest of the so-called gas chambers are described to have had the pellets dumped into the room. How do they get the still out gassing pellets out of room without first removing the bodies?

They don't. These were above ground rooms with doors and windows. Ventilation occurred quickly and naturally.

Straining to find reasons to ignore large amounts of evidence does not work.

[Globus]

The paint job would slow them down a bit as well, what with Chazan and Bennahmias bitch fighting about whether to use the whitewash or the greywash.

There was no rush in most cases. And they had all the labor they needed.

[Grapple]

A few stray pellets long after they've been released
What do you mean long after they have been released, the people died in less then a half hour and the bodies were being removed for the next batch. If they waited for the pellets to release all of its HCN then the whole production would grind to a halt. Not 10’s of thousands a day death tolls.
They don't. These were above ground rooms with doors and windows. Ventilation occurred quickly and naturally.
The only way you have ventilation is with air movement, just opening door and windows does not remove air and certainly does not remove HCN that is still out gassing from pellets lying under the bodies that have not been removed yet and until the bodies are removed you can’t even reach the pellets to remove them.

This stuff is suppose to be deadly enough to kill thousands in less then a half hour yet somehow it does not kill the people who are removing the bodies which are on top of those same pellets.

[Trojan]

This stuff is suppose to be deadly enough to kill thousands in less then a half hour yet somehow it does not kill the people who are removing the bodies which are on top of those same pellets.

They wore masks.

[Globus]

What do you mean long after they have been released, the people died in less then a half hour and the bodies were being removed for the next batch. [.quote]

No, the doors were not immediately opened. First the ventilation system ran and then more waiting occurred after the door was opened.

Furthermore, you ignored the other obvious points - that only few pellets remained, that the unloading took hours and that gas masks were available if needed.

[quote]If they waited for the pellets to release all of its HCN then the whole production would grind to a halt.

No it wouldn't, for the reasons stated twice now.

The only way you have ventilation is with air movement,

And air movement occurs naturally when you open doors and windows via means of convention and other processes.

just opening door and windows does not remove air

It most certainly does. Otherwise you could open the door in the winter and not cold.

This stuff is suppose to be deadly enough to kill thousands in less then a half hour yet somehow it does not kill the people who are removing the bodies which are on top of those same pellets.

Because, as has now been explained four times, the stuff was removed and/or sufficiently mixed with air. It is only deadly at the proper concentration. As used, it was not at that level when the gas chambers were emptied.

Not a tough scientific concept to grasp.

[Stick to the Facts]

What do you mean long after they have been released, the people died in less then a half hour and the bodies were being removed for the next batch. If they waited for the pellets to release all of its HCN then the whole production would grind to a halt. Not 10’s of thousands a day death tolls.

The only way you have ventilation is with air movement, just opening door and windows does not remove air and certainly does not remove HCN that is still out gassing from pellets lying under the bodies that have not been removed yet and until the bodies are removed you can’t even reach the pellets to remove them.

This stuff is suppose to be deadly enough to kill thousands in less then a half hour yet somehow it does not kill the people who are removing the bodies which are on top of those same pellets.

It's clear that the gas was removed by ventilation. A few pellets in a large room would not outgas enough HCN in a short time to be of any danger. Remember that it takes hours to outgas and the pellets were reused.

HCN also has an extremely strong, distinctive odor (bitter almonds.) It is easy to avoid the gas because you can smell trace amounts that aren't enough to kill you if the exposure is brief.

Also, HCN is lighter than nitrogen so it tends to float up and out of an open space - it therefore will disperse much more quickly than a heavier than nitrogen like argon or CO2 which tend to remain concentrated near ground level longer.

Here's another point not yet raised - some say that the Jews were deloused by exposing then to HCN from Zyklon B, which was used to delouse, but didn't kill the Jews. This is not possible. HCN is more toxic to humans than it is to lice and will kill humans faster.

In other words - In a room full of lice + humans + HCN, there will be a lot of lice left by the time the last human is dead.

[Empress Cheesatine]

It would require something called intellect ... :dance2:

Childish retort.

[Grapple]

It's clear that the gas was removed by ventilation.
It would have local concentrations where the pellets were which means that anyone cleaning them up would breath in the HCN. Also forced Ventilation is not even claimed for most of the so-called “gas chambers”.
A few pellets in a large room would not outgas enough HCN in a short time to be of any danger Remember that it takes hours to outgas and the pellets were reused.
It would be a danger in the localized area. In Krema II and III you pull the bodies away from wire mesh Zyklon B insertion devices and there would be gas concentrations, the same gas which is suppose to start killing people immediately and kill everyone in the room in less then a half hour. In the other so-called gas chambers the pellets where they were thrown into the room the pellets would have fallen to the floor and the bodies on top. This means that every time you moved a body concentrated HCN would be released into the air from where it was trapped under the body.

Also of course I remember that it takes hours to outgas, I am the one who brought it up. As to reusing, are you saying that the Germans picket up still outgassing pellets, carried them around, waited for hours as the gas chamber was emptied, cleaned up and refilled with people and used the same pellets again? Sounds pretty dangerous to me, when they could simply open another can since according to the holocaust promoters this stuff starts killing almost immediately.

So what you are saying is that Zyklon B was so dangerous that it kills within minutes yet has no effect on Germans or clean up crews when they enter the room within a half hour to move the bodies and get rid of those same outgassing Zyklon B pellets.
HCN also has an extremely strong, distinctive odor (bitter almonds.) It is easy to avoid the gas because you can smell trace amounts that aren't enough to kill you if the exposure is brief.
How do you avoid the gas if you are inside a room removing bodies or picking up Zyklon B pellets?
Here's another point not yet raised - some say that the Jews were deloused by exposing then to HCN from Zyklon B, which was used to delouse, but didn't kill the Jews. This is not possible. HCN is more toxic to humans than it is to lice and will kill humans faster.
Who says that? I have heard that they delouced clothes but never anyone saying they delouced Jews using Zyklon B.

[Grapple]

They wore masks.
They gave everyone masks including the Jewish workers? Also gas masks require replacement of the filter elements since they go bad after too much exposure to not only toxic gasses but just normal air. So are you saying that the Germans had a whole program of maintenance on these gas masks in place in the camps since I have never heard of any description of any “eyewitness” which describes such a program.

[Grapple]

Because, as has now been explained four times, the stuff was removed and/or sufficiently mixed with air. It is only deadly at the proper concentration. As used, it was not at that level when the gas chambers were emptied.
First you ignore local concentrations around the wire mesh insertion columns which would have much higher concentrations of HCN especially for those who have to bend over to pick up bodies and clean up the pellets.

Second only Krema II and III are suppose to have these columns, Krema I, IV, V, Bunker 1 and 2, and the test gassing barracks did not have this but instead the pellets were dumped into the room. So there would be pellets all over the floor with bodies on top. Every time the bodies would be removed the still outgassing pellets would have had high concentrations of HCN which would rise up right into the faces of the workers.

[eggheadbanga]

They gave everyone masks including the Jewish workers? Also gas masks require replacement of the filter elements since they go bad after too much exposure to not only toxic gasses but just normal air. So are you saying that the Germans had a whole program of maintenance on these gas masks in place in the camps since I have never heard of any description of any “eyewitness” which describes such a program.

No eyewitness describing entering a delousing chamber wearing a gas mask mentions changing filters either. Clearly it wasn't a very important detail to relate. Last I checked, no one denied that there were HCN delousing chambers at Auschwitz.

Hell, I'm not sure how often the witnesses mention going for a piss or a shit. Do we dismiss them as unreliable because they didn't describe urinating?

[Trojan]

Childish retort.

Perhaps, but accurate.

[Trojan]

They gave everyone masks including the Jewish workers? Also gas masks require replacement of the filter elements since they go bad after too much exposure to not only toxic gasses but just normal air. So are you saying that the Germans had a whole program of maintenance on these gas masks in place in the camps since I have never heard of any description of any “eyewitness” which describes such a program.

I don't recall hearing or reading a description of how the pealed potatoes in the kitchen. :deadhorse:

Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Grapple]

No eyewitness describing entering a delousing chamber wearing a gas mask mentions changing filters either. Clearly it wasn't a very important detail to relate. Last I checked, no one denied that there were HCN delousing chambers at Auschwitz.
Because deloucing chambers were not entered within a half hour to remove the clothes. They were operated as the Zyklon B pellets were designed and the clothes were left in for hours until the pellets were totally outgassed.

On the other hand there is repeated claims that people were killed in less then a half hour and the bodies immediately removed so the next bunch of victims could be brought in.

[Grapple]

I don't recall hearing or reading a description of how the pealed potatoes in the kitchen
Do you die from pealing potatoes? On the other hand when in areas where poison gas is present if you don’t do things right you die and that includes the Germans. So there would have to be procedures that everyone one involved would have to seen and known yet none of the “eyewitnesses” mention them. Nor do they mention what happens when the procedures are not done right, people dropping dead in the “gas chambers”

[Trojan]

Do you die from pealing potatoes? On the other hand when in areas where poison gas is present if you don’t do things right you die and that includes the Germans. So there would have to be procedures that everyone one involved would have to seen and known yet none of the “eyewitnesses” mention them. Nor do they mention what happens when the procedures are not done right, people dropping dead in the “gas chambers”

Eyewitness to the delousing gas chambers.

http://www.mazal.org/pressac/Pressac0025.htm

Two clothing delousing gas chambers operated in the main camp on the first floor of Block 3 in 1941-42. The photographs show what still remains of the internal [Photos 7 to 9] and external [Photos 5, 6, 10 and 11) equipment of this installation, comprising two gas chambers separated by the south-west access staircase of Block 3 [Document 3]. Two big rooms were converted into gas chambers by simply putting an extractor fan in each room. Neither the access doors (two for each room), nor the double windows were made gas-tight. Gas-tightness was achieved by sticking strips of paper over the gaps.

The plan [Document 3] of the first floor of Block three was annexed to the deposition [Document 4] of an eyewitness, Andrzej Rablin, who worked in these gas chambers. [His deposition as presented here was translated from Polish to French by the author, with the help of the archivist. It is not a literal translation, but each detail has been carefully verified.]

The drawing and account provide important information. The, show that an ordinary room can easily be transformed into a gas chamber by simply installing an extractor fan, the “safety regulations” being reduced to their absolute minimum, the wearing of gas mask by the operators.

----------------

Next issue?

[calvin]

STICK TO THE FACTS wrote: It's clear that the gas was removed by ventilation. A few pellets in a large room would not outgas enough HCN in a short time to be of any danger. Remember that it takes hours to outgas and the pellets were reused

TROJAN wrote, They wore masks

But according to Pressac.

The drawing and account provide important information. They show that an ordinary room can easily be transformed into a gas chamber by simply installing an extractor fan, the "safety regulations" being reduced to their absolute minimum, the wearing of gas mask by the operators. It may appear surprising that the witness did not wear any clothes, this being highly dangerous in an atmosphere containing 2% by volume of hydrocyanic acid, since a subject exposed to such a concentration of the gas can lose consciousness after ten minutes by absorption through the skin, even when wearing a gas mask

Since the Zyklon pellets outgas for hours and the liquidations took around half an hour, the Sonderkommando would be entering a chamber saturated with enough out gassing Zyklon pellets to cause severe problems and risk of death through skin exposure alone. Anyone entering the chamber without a mask would suffer almost instantaneous and severe respiratory problems. Pressac’s opus divulges the fact that one whiff of exposure through a badly fitted gas mask was enough to put a delousing chamber operative in hospital for two months.

I don't recall hearing or reading a description of how the pealed potatoes in the kitchen


Hell, I'm not sure how often the witnesses mention going for a piss or a shit

These points might be relevant if we were talking about the technique and operation of the kitchens at Auschwitz or the technique and operation of the toilets at Auschwitz but we are not, we are talking about gas chambers. You guys should read your Pressac more thoroughly.

[Grapple]

Next issue?
You still have not answered this issue. Your link does not give any eyewitness testimony about the use of gas masks by workers in gas chambers. Try reading what is being said and who is saying it. You did not even bother to read it did you? It’s a description of a delousing chamber for clothes. Notice the 24 hours, notice the 2 hours of ventilation. Notice how people are without gas masks are effected even after 24 hours plus 2 hours of ventilation.
Twenty-four hours later, we put our gas masks on again, the extractor fans were switched on and we opened the windows. The ventilation continued for two hours. The gas was very dangerous for us. Before we closed the door and sealed it with strips of paper, a little of the gas would escape into the corridor. Apart from us two who were protected by gas masks, the rest did not have any and the entire floor was affected by gas.
You still have Zyklon B pellets outgassing when you are supposedly removing the bodies. How do you get rid of the pellets on the floor of Krema I, IV, V, Bunker I and 2 and the test baracks along with the pellets which according to “eyewitnesses” were spilled in Krema II and III without killing the workers
The, show that an ordinary room can easily be transformed into a gas chamber by simply installing an extractor fan, the “safety regulations” being reduced to their absolute minimum, the wearing of gas mask by the operators.
Also this is interesting since it blows out of the water the whole claim by the holocaust promoters that bombing Auschwitz would have done anything since according to this holocaust promoter any building could become a gas chamber. Which is it, is Auschwitz a massive “Factory of Death” or was it nothing more then some rudely converted buildings. Also it blows out of the water that the “Holocaust” was some sort of massive plan by the Germans when looking at this it was according to the holocaust promoters nothing more then some rudely converted buildings done differently in each location by whatever method the local commander felt like. Of course what it really shows is that the so-called “eyewitness” made things up based on rumors, fear and hate so none of their stories match up with each other.

[Trojan]

Try reading what is being said and who is saying it. You did not even bother to read it did you?

I'm sorry - I thought you authored this:


Because deloucing chambers were not entered within a half hour to remove the clothes. They were operated as the Zyklon B pellets were designed and the clothes were left in for hours until the pellets were totally outgassed.

On the other hand there is repeated claims that people were killed in less then a half hour and the bodies immediately removed so the next bunch of victims could be brought in.


What I posted was to demonstrate that those that worked in deloucing chambers also wore masks.

[Trojan]

But according to Pressac.


Since the Zyklon pellets outgas for hours and the liquidations took around half an hour, the Sonderkommando would be entering a chamber saturated with enough out gassing Zyklon pellets to cause severe problems and risk of death through skin exposure alone. Anyone entering the chamber without a mask would suffer almost instantaneous and severe respiratory problems. Pressac’s opus divulges the fact that one whiff of exposure through a badly fitted gas mask was enough to put a delousing chamber operative in hospital for two months.


These points might be relevant if we were talking about the technique and operation of the kitchens at Auschwitz or the technique and operation of the toilets at Auschwitz but we are not, we are talking about gas chambers. You guys should read your Pressac more thoroughly.

Calvin - what exactly is your issue?

You do understand the concentration in the delousing chambers would be much higher than in the homicidal gassing chambers.

[Globus]

It would have local concentrations where the pellets were which means that anyone cleaning them up would breath in the HCN.

And the concentration would either be inconsequential or necessitate a gas mask.

Also forced Ventilation is not even claimed for most of the so-called “gas chambers”.

It is a fact for those which required it.

It would be a danger in the localized area. In Krema II and III you pull the bodies away from wire mesh Zyklon B insertion devices and there would be gas concentrations, the same gas which is suppose to start killing people immediately and kill everyone in the room in less then a half hour.

You simply repeat variations on the same claim over and over again. A few pellets would not pose a danger.

In the other so-called gas chambers the pellets where they were thrown into the room the pellets would have fallen to the floor and the bodies on top. This means that every time you moved a body concentrated HCN would be released into the air from where it was trapped under the body.

But having been sufficiently aired out first, and with gas masks, posed no problem.

Also of course I remember that it takes hours to outgas,

Actually the majority outgasses in an hour or so. But that is not relevant. Once opened and aired, the concentration levels fall.

I am the one who brought it up. As to reusing, are you saying that the Germans picket up still outgassing pellets, carried them around, waited for hours as the gas chamber was emptied, cleaned up and refilled with people and used the same pellets again?Sounds pretty dangerous to me, when they could simply open another can since according to the holocaust promoters this stuff starts killing almost immediately.

No, manufacturers instructions were to put the pellets back into the cans after outgassing and ship them back to the manufacturer.

So what you are saying is that Zyklon B was so dangerous that it kills within minutes yet has no effect on Germans or clean up crews when they enter the room within a half hour to move the bodies and get rid of those same outgassing Zyklon B pellets.

Zyklon B kills quickly if the concentration is sufficient and gas masks aren't being used. The Nazis didn't go in. They weren't overly concerned about Jews, but the procedures established provided a practical level of protection.

How do you avoid the gas if you are inside a room removing bodies or picking up Zyklon B pellets?

You don't need to, as explained.

Appeals to incredulity does not change the evidence.

[Globus]

Because deloucing chambers were not entered within a half hour to remove the clothes. They were operated as the Zyklon B pellets were designed and the clothes were left in for hours until the pellets were totally outgassed.

Which doesn't change the fact that the outgassed HCN was still in the air, in the room!

[Globus]

But according to Pressac.

Concentrations of 2% are massive, higher than would have been attained in the gas chambers. Furthermore, the rooms were ventilated before entering.

Since the Zyklon pellets outgas for hours and the liquidations took around half an hour,

That is misleading. The greater part of the gas outgasses in an hour or so, and the emptying of the gas chambers took hours under constant ventilation.

the Sonderkommando would be entering a chamber saturated with enough out gassing Zyklon pellets to cause severe problems and risk of death through skin exposure alone.

Nonsense. The level of HCN wouldn't be anywhere near enough to cause that problem.

The gas worked very well, as did the procedures for employing it.

[Grapple]

What I posted was to demonstrate that those that worked in deloucing chambers also wore masks.
Not realizing that what you posted blew the gas chamber story out of the water since they waited 24 hours in the delousing chamber and then 2 more hours of ventilation and then they workers still got sick. Yet somehow they managed to gas people in 30 minutes and then open the so-called gas chamber and start pulling out bodies even though the pellets were still outgassing. Especially Krema 1, IV, V, Bunker 1 and 2 and the test barracks since they simply dumped the pellets in and there was no way to get them out until the bodies were removed. And even the Krema II and III are according to your “eyewitness” had loose pellets laying around.

So is it 26 hours or is it 30 minutes before you can enter a room with HCN?
You simply repeat variations on the same claim over and over again. A few pellets would not pose a danger.
The same pellets which just killed people just a few minutes before are not a danger, they are still outgassing and if you clean them up you have to get close to them. You do realize that the closer you are to the outgassing pellets the higher the HCN concentration would be don’t you?

Either the pellets that are in Krema I, IV, V, Bunker I and 2, and the test baracks would be under the bodies and still outgassing and everyt ime you move the bodies more HCN would rise up into your face

Or supposedly in Krema II and III the pellets were in the wire mesh columns but since they were spilled how did they get them out, since the wire mesh was suppose to keep people from touching the pellets ? Is there some sort of door in the wire mesh? There is no description of such a door, so that means that spilled pellets would remain where they are outgassing right in the middle of the room while the bodies were being removed.
Actually the majority outgasses in an hour or so. But that is not relevant. Once opened and aired, the concentration levels fall.
But they supposedly opened the “gas chambers” within a half hour so the pellets would still be outgassing and if such pellets could kill people in the far corner of the room then certainly they could kill if you were right next door to the wire mesh columns
Zyklon B kills quickly if the concentration is sufficient and gas masks aren't being used. The Nazis didn't go in. They weren't overly concerned about Jews, but the procedures established provided a practical level of protection.
Well it certainly slows down the “Death Factory” if the workers die in the “gas chamber”.
Appeals to incredulity does not change the evidence.
What evidence, the only procedure you have put forward is for a delousing chamber which required more then 26 hours before workers could enter and even then they got sick.

[Trojan]

Not realizing that what you posted blew the gas chamber story out of the water since they waited 24 hours in the delousing chamber and then 2 more hours of ventilation and then they workers still got sick. Yet somehow they managed to gas people in 30 minutes and then open the so-called gas chamber and start pulling out bodies even though the pellets were still outgassing. Especially Krema 1, IV, V, Bunker 1 and 2 and the test barracks since they simply dumped the pellets in and there was no way to get them out until the bodies were removed. And even the Krema II and III are according to your “eyewitness” had loose pellets laying around.

So is it 26 hours or is it 30 minutes before you can enter a room with HCN?


It depends on the concentration in the room and the ventillation. Not to mention the safeguards used.

You still fail to understand the huge diffrence in the concentration used in the two distinct applications. The concentration in the delousing chambers is many time more than in the homicidal chambers.

What part of this do you fail to comprehend?

[Globus]

Not realizing that what you posted blew the gas chamber story out of the water since they waited 24 hours in the delousing chamber and then 2 more hours of ventilation and then they workers still got sick.

Based on much higher concentrations of HCN and a defective gas mask.

Furthermore, the rooms were filled with clothing which retained the gas fumes and made ventilation much more difficult.

Your prior post on this issue quoted the following from Pressac:

The drawing and account provide important information. They show that an ordinary room can easily be transformed into a gas chamber by simply installing an extractor fan, the "safety regulations" being reduced to their absolute minimum, the wearing of gas mask by the operators. It may appear surprising that the witness did not wear any clothes, this being highly dangerous in an atmosphere containing 2% by volume of hydrocyanic acid, since a subject exposed to such a concentration of the gas can lose consciousness after ten minutes by absorption through the skin, even when wearing a gas mask

But you failed to continue the quote:

However, about 5 1.5kg cans of Zyklon-B would be necessary in ONE of the gas chambers in Block 3, to obtain this concentration (24g/m³). The witness does not specify the number of cans used, but states that “the chisel, the hammer and THE can of Zyklon-B)” were put ready in advance. In normal disinfestation, a hydrocyanic acid concentration by volume of approximately 0.1 to 0.05% is generally used, which in this particular case would mean only a 200 or 500g can of Zyklon-B, without danger for the operator, even naked. The best proof that the witness was not subjected to very high concentrations of hydrocyanic acid — 2% per cent actually being lethal in 30 seconds if no mask is worn — is that he was still alive in 1961 and was able to give this account.

So even the Pressac quote does not support your concerns about the gas chambers, even assuming similar circumstances, which is fact were different.

Yet somehow they managed to gas people in 30 minutes and then open the so-called gas chamber and start pulling out bodies even though the pellets were still outgassing. Especially Krema 1, IV, V, Bunker 1 and 2 and the test barracks since they simply dumped the pellets in and there was no way to get them out until the bodies were removed.

They started pulling the bodies out after the concentration levels were in a safe range. Gassings in the bunkers were in most cases conducted at night and the emptying was done the following morning.

And even the Krema II and III are according to your “eyewitness” had loose pellets laying around.

But obviously not enough to produce serious concentrations in a ventilated, and continuously ventilating room.

So is it 26 hours or is it 30 minutes before you can enter a room with HCN?

Now you're being dishonest. 24 hours was to kill the vermin!!

Ventilating a room of high concentrations and filled with clothing is an entirely different issue.

The same pellets which just killed people just a few minutes before are not a danger, they are still outgassing and if you clean them up you have to get close to them.

The cleaning up of the pellets occurred at the end of process of emptying the chambers, long after they'd cease to be an issue.

You do realize that the closer you are to the outgassing pellets the higher the HCN concentration would be don’t you?

Moot point.

Or supposedly in Krema II and III the pellets were in the wire mesh columns but since they were spilled how did they get them out,

We don't know how often, or how many were spilled, but we do know they were not a problem.

But they supposedly opened the “gas chambers” within a half hour so the pellets would still be outgassing and if such pellets could kill people in the far corner of the room then certainly they could kill if you were right next door to the wire mesh columns

When they opened the door does not tell us when the went in. As Chazan testified, they usually waited. And a few outgassing pellets presented no problem.


I'm afraid you're just repeating the same points, already addressed.

[snip repetitive falsehood that the men had to wait 26 hours before going into the delousing chambers. 24 hours was how long it took to kill the vermin.]

[Grapple]

You still fail to understand the huge diffrence in the concentration used in the two distinct applications. The concentration in the delousing chambers is many time more than in the homicidal chambers.

What part of this do you fail to comprehend?
You seem to fail to comprehend that in the case of the delousing chamber all of the Zyklon B pellets had fully outgassed and still the chamber was dangerous after 2 hours of ventilation. While in the so-called “gas chambers” the Zyklon B pellets were still outgassing yet somehow workers could enter 30 minutes after the gassing began and remove the bodies. You do realize that actively outgassing pellets would have the highest concentration of HCN in the area.

[Kolchab]

Calvin - what exactly is your issue?
You do understand the concentration in the delousing chambers would be much higher than in the homicidal gassing chambers.
Not according to Dr. Green of the THHP, who estimated that for each gassing an amount of 6 kg Zyklon-B was used. He based this on an estimate by Pressac, who in turn got the amount from Henryk Tauber’s affidavit.

This would come to 14 g/m³ in the morgue, which is well at the upper level used in the fumigation rooms and results in 12,000 ppm HCN gas density.

Kolchab

[Globus]

You seem to fail to comprehend that in the case of the delousing chamber all of the Zyklon B pellets had fully outgassed and still the chamber was dangerous after 2 hours of ventilation.

Which is utterly irrelevant, since the outgassed HCN is still in the room, at very high concentrations, and is furthermore trapped in the folds of clothes, making ventilating the room very difficult.

[Globus]

Not according to Dr. Green of the THHP, who estimated that for each gassing an amount of 6 kg Zyklon-B was used. He based this on an estimate by Pressac, who in turn got the amount from Henryk Tauber’s affidavit.

That is the amount used, not the concentration level reached. In a delousing chamber in which the pellets are allowed to outgas for hours, all the gas vaporizes and produces very high levels of HCN.

And the fact remains that even under such circumstances the Nazis were able to enter the building with gas masks.

[Grapple]

Furthermore, the rooms were filled with clothing which retained the gas fumes and made ventilation much more difficult.
Furthermore, the rooms in Krema I, IV, V, Bunker 1 and 2 and the test barracks would have had the still outgassing pellets under the bodies which would make ventilation much much more difficult since they also did not have any claim to an active ventilation system.
But obviously not enough to produce serious concentrations in a ventilated, and continuously ventilating room.
Obvious to who, a holocaust promoter?
Now you're being dishonest. 24 hours was to kill the vermin!!

Ventilating a room of high concentrations and filled with clothing is an entirely different issue.
It was also to allow the pellets to completely outgass, something that could not occur with the 30 minute schedule as put forward by holocaust promoters.

And how do you ventilate a room with pellets that are still outgassing?
Moot point.
Not a moot point at all, if you have to clean up the outgassing pellets then how near you are to the pellets is very very important to your health
When they opened the door does not tell us when the went in. As Chazan testified, they usually waited. And a few outgassing pellets presented no problem.


I'm afraid you're just repeating the same points, already addressed.
How could they wait, they had a million Jews to kill, remember all those stories about rushing the victims into the chamber so they could kill them quickly and get the next batch in. You haven’t addressed them at all you just keep repeating the same contradictory story.
[snip repetitive falsehood that the men had to wait 26 hours before going into the delousing chambers. 24 hours was how long it took to kill the vermin.]
For the pellets to outgass and for the two hour long ventilation which still was not enough since workers got sick.

[Trojan]

Not according to Dr. Green of the THHP, who estimated that for each gassing an amount of 6 kg Zyklon-B was used. He based this on an estimate by Pressac, who in turn got the amount from Henryk Tauber’s affidavit.

This would come to 14 g/m³ in the morgue, which is well at the upper level used in the fumigation rooms and results in 12,000 ppm HCN gas density.

Kolchab

Please link the publication and text in which it is stated that the same concentration was used to kill people as to kill lice.

[Trojan]

You seem to fail to comprehend that in the case of the delousing chamber all of the Zyklon B pellets had fully outgassed and still the chamber was dangerous after 2 hours of ventilation. While in the so-called “gas chambers” the Zyklon B pellets were still outgassing yet somehow workers could enter 30 minutes after the gassing began and remove the bodies. You do realize that actively outgassing pellets would have the highest concentration of HCN in the area.

Depends on how many pellets are being used. If you are trying to achieve a lesser concentration, you use less pellets.

:deadhorse: :deadhorse:

[Globus]

Furthermore, the rooms in Krema I, IV, V, Bunker 1 and 2 and the test barracks would have had the still outgassing pellets under the bodies which would make ventilation much much more difficult since they also did not have any claim to an active ventilation system.

You're repeating the same refuted points.

The Bunkers were largely used at night, with emptying the following day.

Remaining pellets in the other chambers posed no threat to a ventilated, and ventilating room for those wearing gas masks.

Obvious to who, a holocaust promoter?

Obvious based on the fact they were used with the stated procedures!!

It was also to allow the pellets to completely outgass, something that could not occur with the 30 minute schedule as put forward by holocaust promoters.

Meaning there was even more gas in the air!

And how do you ventilate a room with pellets that are still outgassing?

Opening the doors and windows and/or turning on the ventilation, of course.

If HCN could reach lethal concentrations with open doors and windows, not to mention ventilation systems, why you need to construct gas tight rooms?

Not a moot point at all, if you have to clean up the outgassing pellets then how near you are to the pellets is very very important to your health

Moot point. The pellets were cleaned up at the end of the process, some hours later.

How could they wait, they had a million Jews to kill,

They had plenty of time. For long stretches there were not even any arrivals.

remember all those stories about rushing the victims into the chamber so they could kill them quickly and get the next batch in. You haven’t addressed them at all you just keep repeating the same contradictory story.

There are not "all those stories" and the few which occur refer to a very narrow period of time, a few weeks in the summer of 1944.

For the pellets to outgass and for the two hour long ventilation which still was not enough since workers got sick.[/QUOTE]

No, it doesn't take 24 hours for the pellets to outgas. The reason for waiting was to kill the vermin, many of them found in the folds of clothing.

The worker got sick because of a defective gas mask. WHy do you dishonestly attribute this to something else? The ventilation of these rooms was entirely different from the gas chambers.

[calvin]

Rablin says that he was ill for two months after being “slightly” gassed because of a faulty gas mask. The operation Rablin describes cannot have taken more than a few minutes and Rablin himself is anxious to stress that swiftness was essential. Zyklon takes more than a few minutes to fully outgas so even if we assume a worst case scenario, in which the faulty gas mask gave zero protection, Rablin can only have been exposed to minimum amounts of cyanide, the concentrations would have been low because the Zyklon would only have been outgassing for a couple of minutes, and yet, exposure at low (lice killing) concentrations for only a couple of minutes was enough to put Rablin in hospital for two months.

Rablins evidence affirms the fact that inhaling small concentrations of cyanide for even a short period of time is potentially deadly. The Sonderkommando worked for long periods in rooms that had been subjected to enough cyanide to kill hundreds/thousands of humans and in which there were still actively outgasssing Zyklon pellets in some cases, this would make the utilization of gas-masks a vital requirement for the success of the operations described by Chazan and portrayed by Olere.

The problem with this is that Chazan’s deposition omits any mention of gas masks and Olere’s pictures show Sonderkommando operating without gas masks.

[Grapple]

You're repeating the same refuted points.
Just because you declare something refuted does not mean it is.
Meaning there was even more gas in the air!
Which means that ventilation is not effective when the pellets are still outgassing, especially when you have to remove the still outgassing pellets.
Opening the doors and windows and/or turning on the ventilation, of course.

If HCN could reach lethal concentrations with open doors and windows, not to mention ventilation systems, why you need to construct gas tight rooms?
Why did they wear gas masks when opening Zyklon B canisters, because being near to outgassing pellets means much higher concentrations of HCN. The same nearness is required when removing the still outgassing pellets from the so-called gas chambers.
Moot point. The pellets were cleaned up at the end of the process, some hours later.
Its not moot at all. Since the pellets are still outgassing that means that during the whole body removal process there is still a source of high concentrated HCN in the room which will kill the workers.
The worker got sick because of a defective gas mask. WHy do you dishonestly attribute this to something else? The ventilation of these rooms was entirely different from the gas chambers.
Who is being dishonest, me who points out that Zyklon B pellets were still outgassing at the same time that workers were in the so-called gas chamber or you who wants to ignore the fact that this would cause local high levels of HCN which would kill those same workers.

And I agree, most of the so-called gas chambers had no active ventilation and if you opened the doors and windows they would have the HCN enter the rest of the building. The delousing chambers on the other hand were specifically designed for using Zyklon B, as opposed to the so-called gas chambers which were not. Seems strange that the Germans would spend the time and money to design special buildings to save Jews lives yet not design special buildings to kill them. I guess this shows the Germans priority.

[Globus]

Rablin says that he was ill for two months after being “slightly” gassed because of a faulty gas mask. The operation Rablin describes cannot have taken more than a few minutes

Nothing said indicates that. Just more idle speculation used to construct an argument.

and Rablin himself is anxious to stress that swiftness was essential. Zyklon takes more than a few minutes to fully outgas so even if we assume a worst case scenario, in which the faulty gas mask gave zero protection, Rablin can only have been exposed to minimum amounts of cyanide, the concentrations would have been low because the Zyklon would only have been outgassing for a couple of minutes, and yet, exposure at low (lice killing) concentrations for only a couple of minutes was enough to put Rablin in hospital for two months.

This makes no sense whatsover.

Lice killing concentrations are very high, not low. And we don't have any idea what the concentrations were, or how seriously impaired the mask was.

Rablins evidence affirms the fact that inhaling small concentrations of cyanide for even a short period of time is potentially deadly.

No, it does no such thing. We have no idea what the concentration was.

The Sonderkommando worked for long periods in rooms that had been subjected to enough cyanide to kill hundreds/thousands of humans

The number of humans is not really relevant. The only issue is the concentration levels of the gas. Higher levels are needed to kill vermin, and the ventilation problems are different between delousing and homicidal gas chambers.

and in which there were still actively outgasssing Zyklon pellets in some cases,

Not relevant unless they produce a dangerous level of concentration that even gas masks could not protect against, and the evidence clearly shows this was not the case.

this would make the utilization of gas-masks a vital requirement for the success of the operations described by Chazan and portrayed by Olere.

And they were used when needed.

The problem with this is that Chazan’s deposition omits any mention of gas masks

They were seldom needed in KII and KIII.

and Olere’s pictures show Sonderkommando operating without gas masks.

Olere's drawings are of KII and KIII.

[Globus]

Just because you declare something refuted does not mean it is.

All you have to do is read the exchange. You make a claim. It is answered. You make the same claim, sometimes with altered wording. It is answered again. You never address the answers to your claims, almost of which are based on speculations you make.

Which means that ventilation is not effective when the pellets are still outgassing, especially when you have to remove the still outgassing pellets.

No, it means ventilation in delousing chambers is different.

Why did they wear gas masks when opening Zyklon B canisters, because being near to outgassing pellets means much higher concentrations of HCN.

Because they had a whole can of Zyklon B pellets right under their nose!!

Not the scenario you proposed, which was substantially degassed pellets strewn over a large area.

But you didn't address the question.

If HCN could reach lethal concentrations with open doors and windows, not to mention ventilation systems, why you need to construct gas tight rooms?

Its not moot at all. Since the pellets are still outgassing that means that during the whole body removal process there is still a source of high concentrated HCN in the room which will kill the workers.

Nope, it does not mean a high concentration exists. The room is being ventilated and your proposed scenario was that they'd need to get close to the pellets to pick them up. I explained to you that occurrred hours later when they were done emptying the chamber. The pellets would not be outgassing at that point.

You apparently do not understand the concept of gas concentration.

Who is being dishonest, me who points out that Zyklon B pellets were still outgassing at the same time that workers were in the so-called gas chamber or you who wants to ignore the fact that this would cause local high levels of HCN which would kill those same workers.

You are of course, since you tried to attribute the sick gentlemen's problem to something other than a defective gas mask by not mentioning it as the cause.

There would be little if any gas emitting pellets in KII and KIII, easily handled by the powerful ventilation system. In KIV and KV, gas mask were used when necessary. Your claims of high concentrations are unsupported, and the evidence indicates it was not a problem.

And I agree, most of the so-called gas chambers had no active ventilation

The two with a large percentage of all gassings, especially KII, and KIII as well, had powerful ventilation.

The Bunkers, also locations of large numbers of gassing, were almost always emptied in the morning, eliminating any possible consideration of the theory you posit.

Your chasing your tail.

[Trojan]

Calvin

Read this over then come back with any comments or questions.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/hydrogencyanide/recognition.html

Effects on Humans: Hydrogen cyanide can cause rapid death due to metabolic asphyxiation. Death can occur within seconds or minutes of the inhalation of high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide gas. A recent study reports an estimated LC(50) in humans of 3,404 ppm for a 1-minute exposure; other sources report that 270 ppm is fatal after 6 to 8 minutes, 181 ppm after 10 minutes and 135 ppm after 30 minutes [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Cyanide directly stimulates the chemoreceptors of the carotid and aortic bodies, causing hyperpnea. Cardiac irregularities are often noted [Amdur 1991]. Liquid hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen cyanide in aqueous solution [hydrocyanic acid], and the concentrated vapor are all absorbed rapidly through the intact skin and may cause systemic poisoning with little or no irritant effect on the skin itself. The liquid in contact with the eye may cause only local irritation; however, the attendant absorption may be hazardous [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Industrial exposure to hydrogen cyanide solutions has caused dermatitis, itching, scarlet rash, papules, and nose irritation and bleeding. Perforation of the nasal septum has also occurred [NLM 1995]. Workers exposed to hydrogen cyanide at concentrations ranging from 4 to 12 ppm for 7 years showed an increase in symptoms such as headaches, weakness, changes in taste and smell, irritation of the throat, vomiting, effort dyspnea, lacrimation, abdominal colic, precordial pain, and nervous instability [ACGIH 1991]. Workers exposed to low concentrations (not further specified) of hydrogen cyanide have developed enlarged thyroid glands [NLM 1995].

[calvin]

Lice killing concentrations are very high, not low. And we don't have any idea what the concentrations were, or how seriously impaired the mask was. GLOBBY

The witness does not specify the number of cans used, but states that "the chisel, the hammer and THE can of Zyklon-B)" were put ready in advance. In normal disinfestation, a hydrocyanic acid concentration by volume of approximately 0.1 to 0.05% is generally used, which in this particular case would mean only a 200 or 500g can of Zyklon-B. Pressac

So in fact we do know the quantities involved, between 200 and 500gs of Zyklon.

Since we were afraid of being bitten by the lice, we put the chisel, the hammer and the can of Zyklon-B ready in advance, opened it quickly and threw the substance on the floor. Despite the speed of this operation the lice jumped on our legs

Such an operation could be performed in under a minute. So we know that the cyanide given of by one can of Zyklon that barely had time to begin outgasing was almost enough to kill Rabin.

And they(gas masks) were used when needed

And your evidence is? Please cite me another witness because your last one was a real diamond; pitchforks and bodies glued together by gas!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trojan]

And your evidence is? Please cite me another witness because your last one was a real diamond; pitchforks and bodies glued together by gas!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you claiming the workers in the delousing chambers did not need or did not wear masks?

[calvin]

Trojan

I think the point you are making is that the consequences of cyanide exposure are situational specific and vary from mortality to minor malady in relation to degree of exposure, however, my first conclusion after reading your post is that I shouldn’t have pulled that last cork. I promise to give your post due consideration when my powers of comprehension have fully recovered.

BTW I am bemused by your new signature. It is a true statement IMHO

[Trojan]

Trojan

I think the point you are making is that the consequences of cyanide exposure are situational specific and vary from mortality to minor malady in relation to degree of exposure, however, my first conclusion after reading your post is that I shouldn’t have pulled that last cork. I promise to give your post due consideration when my powers of comprehension have fully recovered.

BTW I am bemused by your new signature. It is a true statement IMHO

I think the consequences of any exposure are situational specific, etc.

[Globus]

So in fact we do know the quantities involved, between 200 and 500gs of Zyklon.

I didn't say anything about quantity. I noted concentration. Why did you change the term? The fact is concentration is all that matters, and we don't know the concentration.

Such an operation could be performed in under a minute. So we know that the cyanide given of by one can of Zyklon that barely had time to begin outgasing was almost enough to kill Rabin.

No we don't. He gives us his merely his suppositions, and he was not nearly killed. Once again you exaggerate the facts to fit your mindless denial. And one minute of breathing directly from an entire can of Zyklon B is not analagous to any situation in the gas chambers.

And your evidence is?

Eyewitnesses who were there.

If you don't this, why are you offering conclusions in ignorance?

[calvin]

I didn't say anything about quantity. I noted concentration. Why did you change the term? The fact is concentration is all that matters, and we don't know the concentration

And that concentration wouldn’t be connected in any way to the amount of Zyklon used and the time that that Zyklon had to discharge its cargo of cyanide?

No we don't. He gives us his merely his suppositions

Whose suppositions, Pressac’s or Rabin’s? Are you disputing the evidence of a vaunted holocaust witness or a venerated holocaust expert?

Eyewitnesses who were there

And how many times are the plebs required to run around the block before you deign to divulge a source for this witness testimony?

If you don't this, why are you offering conclusions in ignorance?

Perhaps I’m hoping that you will enlighten me?

[Globus]

And that concentration wouldn’t be connected in any way to the amount of Zyklon used and the time that that Zyklon had to discharge its cargo of cyanide?

Only somewhat, of course. It would depend how much had outgassed, and the state and type of ventilation.

Whose suppositions, Pressac’s or Rabin’s? Are you disputing the evidence of a vaunted holocaust witness or a venerated holocaust expert?

He is not that venerated. And why are you asking? I responded to your direct assertion.

And how many times are the plebs required to run around the block before you deign to divulge a source for this witness testimony?

And how many times do deniers like you offer conclusions about issues concerning which you don't even have a grasp of the evidence?

Have you ever heard of google?

Perhaps I’m hoping that you will enlighten me?

So your method of enlightment is to reach conclusions and then request evidence?

[Kolchab]

Not according to Dr. Green of the THHP, who estimated that for each gassing an amount of 6 kg Zyklon-B was used. He based this on an estimate by Pressac, who in turn got the amount from Henryk Tauber’s affidavit.

That is the amount used, not the concentration level reached. In a delousing chamber in which the pellets are allowed to outgas for hours, all the gas vaporizes and produces very high levels of HCN.
And the fact remains that even under such circumstances the Nazis were able to enter the building with gas masks.
Operators of fumigation rooms were only allowed to enter the fumigation rooms after at least 1½ hr de-aeration and after the chemical HCN test kit indicated no remaining HCN and then only with a protective suit on and a gas mask.

Please provide a witness statement or a doument which states that the Zyklon-B pellets were withdrawn early before their complete de-gassing.
Even the statement of the witness which you quotesd above stated clearly:
»A small space was left so that you could clean there. We poured water on the floor and swept up what remained of the pellets.«
What remained of the Zyklon-B pellets after the de-gassing was of course the porous carrier of the gas, cardboard discs and gypsum (Ercco) were the most commonly used carrier material at that time.

Please link the publication and text in which it is stated that the same concentration was used to kill people as to kill lice.
There is no link. It can easily be calculated from the volume of morgue 1 minus the volume of the displacement of 2000 people inside.

Kolchab

[Globus]

Operators of fumigation rooms were only allowed to enter the fumigation rooms after at least 1½ hr de-aeration and after the chemical HCN test kit indicated no remaining HCN and then only with a protective suit on and a gas mask.

Different ventilation issues, and different people [Nazis rather than Jews]

Please provide a witness statement or a doument which states that the Zyklon-B pellets were withdrawn early before their complete de-gassing.

Utterly unnecessary.

The devices were constructed to withdraw the pellets. It requires little common sense to understand that one would do this once the victims were dead and you were ready to ventilate the room

There is no link. It can easily be calculated from the volume of morgue 1 minus the volume of the displacement of 2000 people inside.

Sure it can!

[Grapple]

You make a claim. It is answered. You make the same claim, sometimes with altered wording. It is answered again. You never address the answers to your claims, almost of which are based on speculations you make.
Because your answers don’t make sense, Zyklon B pellets which have just killed hundreds and which are still out gassing don’t kill workers who are cleaning them up even though you must be near the pellets to clean them up.
No, it means ventilation in delousing chambers is different.
So you are saying that a building which was purpose built for using Zyklon B was unable to handle the gas safely even after 26 hours yet building which were crudely converted could after a half hour?
You apparently do not understand the concept of gas concentration.
Yes I do, I understand that pellets which were still outgassing and had just killed hundreds of people would have high local concentrations of HCN which would kill those who tried to clean them up.
The Bunkers, also locations of large numbers of gassing, were almost always emptied in the morning, eliminating any possible consideration of the theory you posit.
That’s not what Milton Buki (holocaust survivor and member of the bunker sondercomando) said. He personally witnessed the “gassing” and was among those who moved the bodies. He says 20 minute gassing, and after 30 minutes they were pulling bodies out. No waiting till the next day.
While, on the first occasion, we were taken to the house after the gassing had already taken place, later we were already there when the convoy arrived. Under these conditions I was able to see the whole process. The men, women and children were made to undress in a shed near the house. They were then obliged to walk very quickly or even run between two ranks of SS who had dogs. In this way they reached the open door of the house and went in. They were told that it was simply a shower for disinfection purposes, after which they would be admitted to the camp to work there under normal conditions. When the interior of the house was absolutely full, the door was closed. Doctor Mengle who was often (present) or another doctor replacing him, gave an SS man the order to inject the gas. To do this he climbed several steps by the side wall of the house and introduced through a little chimney the contents of the can that he opened with a knife. About twenty minutes after the injection of the gas, the door was opened and the work of removing the bodies commenced about an half hour afterwards. After being taken back to Block II, we could see flames consuming the bodies in the grave.

[Trojan]

There is no link. It can easily be calculated from the volume of morgue 1 minus the volume of the displacement of 2000 people inside.

Kolchab

Then please do the calculations and reference your sources.

Again, so we are strait, you claim the same concentration of HCN was used to kill people as used to kill lice.

[calvin]

The devices were constructed to withdraw the pellets. It requires little common sense to understand that one would do this once the victims were dead and you were ready to ventilate the room

What devices, the ones described by Chazan with the gap between it and the floor, or the Kula and Tauber device, that had no gap between its base and the floor?

So your method of enlightment is to reach conclusions and then request evidence?

Ehrr, no! I'm asking you to provide evidence that supports your assertion Globby.

He is not that venerated

Look out Eli, Pressac is about to be launched in your direction, shove over a bit in that steam chamber.

Only somewhat, of course. It would depend how much had outgassed, and the state and type of ventilation

Rablin was exposed to the the fumes from one 200g or 500g can of Zyklon, outgassing on a floor, not poured into a special heating and dispersal device, for as long as it took to open the can, pour out the contents and fuck off, he was laid up in hospital for two months when his gas mask failed. This would seem to me to indicate that Sonderkommando operations in kremas without Kula columns would require gas masks. I'm not saying they didn't have them, I'm just asking you to provide some evidence that they did. If you can't be bothered why do you continue to post here?

[Kolchab]

Operators of fumigation rooms were only allowed to enter the fumigation rooms after at least 1½ hr de-aeration and after the chemical HCN test kit indicated no remaining HCN and then only with a protective suit on and a gas mask.

Different ventilation issues, and different people [Nazis rather than Jews]
No. The fumigations were handled mainly by camp inmates, including Jews, under the supervision of SS personnel.


Please provide a witness statement or a doument which states that the Zyklon-B pellets were withdrawn early before their complete de-gassing.
Utterly unnecessary.
The devices were constructed to withdraw the pellets. It requires little common sense to understand that one would do this once the victims were dead and you were ready to ventilate the roomIt may be your common sense, with 20/20 hindsight after the total idiocy of the alleged gas chambers became obvious.
But both witnesses Tauber and Kula testified that the pellets were removed only after complete gas depletion from the Zyklon-B pellets.
Besides, the ceiling openings for the insertion chutes were never discovered either. And neither were the wire chutes themselvves nor their attachment or traces of attachments to the ceiling and floor.
Case closed.


There is no link. It can easily be calculated from the volume of morgue 1 minus the volume of the displacement of 2000 people inside.

Then please do the calculations and reference your sources.
You don’t know how to calculate the volume of the morgue and want me to show you how to do this? You must be kidding. I am not a elementary school teacher.

Again, so we are stait, you claim the same concentration of HCN was used to kill people as used to kill lice.I never claimed any nonsense like this.
Dr. Green of the THHP claimed that an amount equal to the amount necessary to kill lice was introduced into the morgue.

Kolchab

[Trojan]

You don’t know how to calculate the volume of the morgue and want me to show you how to do this? You must be kidding. I am not a elementary school teacher.


Its your assertion it is easy to demonstrate - if you can not do so, then it is obviously not easy, in fact it is a lie.

Calculating the volume of the morgue only gets you part of what you need, you still need to demonstrate that the concentration of HCN in both chambers (delousing and homicidal gas chambers) were the same or similar.

Put up or admit your assertion is baseless.

[cerberus]

calvinRablin was exposed to the the fumes from one 200g or 500g can of Zyklon, outgassing on a floor, not poured into a special heating and dispersal device, for as long as it took to open the can, pour out the contents and fuck off,

Any chance Calvin that you might leave the swear words out ?:cuss: :cuss:

[Globus]

No. The fumigations were handled mainly by camp inmates, including Jews, under the supervision of SS personnel.

No, they were not.

It may be your common sense, with 20/20 hindsight after the total idiocy of the alleged gas chambers became obvious.

Circular logic. You're assuming facts not yet proven. There is no idiocy involved in the gas chambers. More importantly, the claim that the chamber is idiotic because there was no way to remove the still outgassing pellets is refuted by the fact that there was.

But both witnesses Tauber and Kula testified that the pellets were removed only after complete gas depletion from the Zyklon-B pellets.

Actually Tauber said the removable can was used to remove the pellets from which the gas had evaporated. He said nothing about complete outgassing. Kula merely said it was removed after the evaporation of the gas. That doesn't mean it was after complete evaporation, and Kula did not operate the devices the Nazis did. The fact remains there was means to remove the pellets, so claims that there was no choice but to go into the underground rooms with still outgassing Zyklon B pellets is ridiculous.

Besides, the ceiling openings for the insertion chutes were never discovered either. And neither were the wire chutes themselvves nor their attachment or traces of attachments to the ceiling and floor.
Case closed.

Of course the openings have been found, despite the fact that the roof lies in ruins and is covered with debris. The fact that the wire mesh devices were removed, along with much other incriminating evidence, is well known. Your case never opened.

You don’t know how to calculate the volume of the morgue and want me to show you how to do this? You must be kidding. I am not a elementary school teacher.

It involves a little more than that to sustain your point, now doesn't it!

[Globus]

Because your answers don’t make sense, Zyklon B pellets which have just killed hundreds and which are still out gassing don’t kill workers who are cleaning them up even though you must be near the pellets to clean them up.

But there were no outgassing pellets in KII and KIII, but for a few that might have fallen through the wire mesh devices, and in KIV and KV once the rooms are opened and ventilation occurs for a while the concentration goes down, easily permitting those with gas masks to go in.

So you are saying that a building which was purpose built for using Zyklon B was unable to handle the gas safely even after 26 hours yet building which were crudely converted could after a half hour?

I've addressed this three times. Pay attention.

26 hours has nothing to do with handling the gas safely. It has almost entirely to do with killing the vermin. The gas chambers were not crude and the ventilation issues of the two types was different.

Yes I do, I understand that pellets which were still outgassing and had just killed hundreds of people would have high local concentrations of HCN which would kill those who tried to clean them up.

Nope, they were removed in KII and KIII, and the concentration drops once you ventilate allowing those with gas masks to do their work.

That’s not what Milton Buki (holocaust survivor and member of the bunker sondercomando) said. He personally witnessed the “gassing” and was among those who moved the bodies. He says 20 minute gassing, and after 30 minutes they were pulling bodies out. No waiting till the next day.

You are being disengenuous. Buki testifies to both processes. The preponderance of the evidence from those who worked the bunkers was that gassing occurred at night and emptying the next day.

Thirty minutes of airing [assuming Buki's estimate is exact when in fact it could have been longer] the bunkers, , which were not that large, reduced the concentrations enough to permit entry with gas masks.

[Globus]

What devices, the ones described by Chazan with the gap between it and the floor, or the Kula and Tauber device, that had no gap between its base and the floor?[/quote

Where does Kula say they went to the floor? And Chazan could have remembered incorrectly. The fact is there are large numbers of testimonies about them, and they are listed on the transfer documents.

[quote]Ehrr, no! I'm asking you to provide evidence that supports your assertion Globby.

Do not play with name.

And when you are unaware of evidence for gas masks, you are indeed reaching conclusions without knowing the evidence.

Look out Eli, Pressac is about to be launched in your direction, shove over a bit in that steam chamber.

So you've said all of substance that you have?

Rablin was exposed to the the fumes from one 200g or 500g can of Zyklon,

No, he was the victims of a faulty gas mask.

[calvin]

And when you are unaware of evidence for gas masks, you are indeed reaching conclusions without knowing the evidence

Feel free to reveal the evidence whenever you like, while your looking for it could you look for some evidence to help solve this conundrum?

the categorical results were that cyanide was found where expected in both the gas chambers and the delousing facilities, and not found in the living quarters, supporting the hypothesis that the gas chambers were exposed to high levels of cyanide like the delousing facilities, and not low levels for routine fumigation, like the living quarters: Professor Jan Markiwicz, Director of the Forensic Institute of kracow

“gas chambers were exposed to high levels of cyanide like the delousing facilities”

You have spent most of this thread arguing that the chambers were exposed to low concentrations (far lower than those used in delousing facilities) of cyanide, for far shorter periods of time and yet Markiwicz concludes that these facilities have been exposed to concentrations of cyanide that are similar to the concentrations found in delousing facilities?

No, he was the victims of a faulty gas mask

Nothing to do with the Zyklon then?

[Globus]

Feel free to reveal the evidence whenever you like, while your looking for it could you look for some evidence to help solve this conundrum?

Why haven't you looked for it? Aren't you interested in correcting non evidence based conclusions on the Holocaust? Or are you just interested in denying it?

the categorical results were that cyanide was found where expected in both the gas chambers and the delousing facilities, and not found in the living quarters, supporting the hypothesis that the gas chambers were exposed to high levels of cyanide like the delousing facilities, and not low levels for routine fumigation, like the living quarters: Professor Jan Markiwicz, Director of the Forensic Institute of kracow

“gas chambers were exposed to high levels of cyanide like the delousing facilities”

He is talking cumulative levels, dear boy. You could only kill vermin in the living quarters with the same minimal concentrations as you could kill them in the delousing chambers. This is clear in his report, since they mentions the living quarters were deloused only one or twice.

You have spent most of this thread arguing that the chambers were exposed to low concentrations (far lower than those used in delousing facilities)

No I haven't. Now you're merely mistating the argument.

of cyanide, for far shorter periods of time

Of course for far shorter periods. There is no disputing that.

and yet Markiwicz concludes that these facilities have been exposed to concentrations of cyanide that are similar to the concentrations found in delousing facilities?

Nope, he's referring to the cumulative totals over time and his comment is directly related to the frequency of use, not the concentration levels of the gas.

Nothing to do with the Zyklon then?

If the mask hadn't been defective, he'd have been fine.

You've made no point.

[calvin]

Why haven't you looked for it? Aren't you interested in correcting non evidence based conclusions on the Holocaust? Or are you just interested in denying it?

I have looked for evidence that the Sonderkommando used gas masks when emptying gas chambers not equipped with mesh devices that allowed the removal of outgasing Zyklon granules; I just can’t find it. I simply thought that someone who was interested in affirming the holocaust might be anxious to provide that evidence.

Nope, he's referring to the cumulative totals over time and his comment is directly related to the frequency of use, not the concentration levels of the gas

So your explanation for the similarity in cyanide deposits between the delousing facilities and the morgues, discovered by the Forensic Institute of Kracow, is that the gas chambers were used far more frequently than the delousing facilities or for a far longer period of time; any evidence for that?

What happened to the clothes in the undressing rooms, were they simply reissued to the inmates un-deloused, at risk of reintroducing typhus with every transport, or were they burnt? Do the eyewitnesses say anything about this?

The faulty gas mask is indicative of the high risk that even slight exposure to outgasing Zyklon granules would pose to anyone not wearing a gas mask.

[Trojan]

The faulty gas mask is indicative of the high risk that even slight exposure to outgasing Zyklon granules would pose to anyone not wearing a gas mask.

The faulty gas mask was during an intial outgassing, in a chamber in which the highest concentration levels were targeted.

Was not the person at issue opening the gas cannisters by hand?

[calvin]

The faulty gas mask was during an intial outgassing, in a chamber in which the highest concentration levels were targeted

Pressac insists that one 200 to 500g canister was all that was used. High concentration levels were only achieved after the Zyklon had fully outgassed in a sealed chamber.

[Globus]

I have looked for evidence that the Sonderkommando used gas masks when emptying gas chambers not equipped with mesh devices that allowed the removal of outgasing Zyklon granules; I just can’t find it. I simply thought that someone who was interested in affirming the holocaust might be anxious to provide that evidence.

http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0171.htm

Sonderkommando member Schlomo Dragon's testimony:

We were taken into a forest where there was a cottage covered with thatch, its windows bricked in. On the door leading to the interior of the cottage was a metal plate with the inscription “Hochspannung Lebensgefahr / High tension danger” [Document 3: Figure 2]. Thirty or forty meters from this cottage there were two wooden huts (huts 1 and 2 in Drawing 1). On the other side of the cottage there were four pits 30 meters long, 7 meters wide and 3 meters deep (above in drawing 1), their edges black with smoke. We were lined up in front of the house. Moll arrived and told us we would work here at burning old and lousy people, that we would be given something something to eat and in the evening we would be taken back to the camp. He added that those who did not accept the work would be beaten and have the dogs set on them. The SS who escorted us were accompanied by dogs. Then he split us into a number of groups. I myself and eleven others were detailed as we learnt later, to remove the bodies from this cottage. We were all given masks, and led to the door of the cottage. When Moll opened the door, we saw that the door, we saw that the cottage was full of naked corpses of both sexes and of all ages. Moll ordered us to move these corpses from the cottage to the yard, in front of the door. We started work with four men carrying one body. This annoyed Moll. He rolled up his sleeves and threw a body into the yard When, despite this example, we said we were incapable of doing that, he allowed us to carry them, two men to a body. Once the corpses were laid out in the yard. the dentist, assisted by an SS man, pulled out the teeth [Dragon forgets the removal of rings and jewels, unless these had been removed earlier], and the barber, also watched by an SS man, cut off the hair. Another group loaded the bodies onto wagons running on rails that led to the edge of the pits. These rails ran between two pits [Document 1: Drawing 1]. Still another group prepared the pit for burning the corpses. First of all, big logs were put in the bottom [Document 9, sketch by David Olère. The logs are on the right, along the wall of the undressing hut], then smaller and smaller wood, in criss cross fashion, and finally dry twigs. The following group threw the bodies into the pit. Once all the bodies had been brought from the cottage to the pit, Moll poured kerosene over them in the four corners of the pit and set fire to it by throwing in a burning rubber comb (roughly fringed piece of rubber). That is how the corpses were burnt. While Moll was starting the fire, we were in front of the cottage, (on the north west side) and could see what he was doing.

So your explanation for the similarity in cyanide deposits between the delousing facilities and the morgues, discovered by the Forensic Institute of Kracow, is that the gas chambers were used far more frequently than the delousing facilities or for a far longer period of time; any evidence for that?

No, my point is that he was referring to the frequency of use, and he drew a distinction between both kinds of gas chambers, which were frequently used, and living quarters, which were gassed once of twice.

The issue of cyanide residues is irrelvant to the discussion. Your claim that the comments referred to the concentration obtained in individual gassings in the two types of gas chambers is relevant, and you distorted the IFC's conclusion.

What happened to the clothes in the undressing rooms, were they simply reissued to the inmates un-deloused, at risk of reintroducing typhus with every transport, or were they burnt? Do the eyewitnesses say anything about this?

The faulty gas mask is indicative of the high risk that even slight exposure to outgasing Zyklon granules would pose to anyone not wearing a gas mask.

No, the faulty gas mask is a sign of the risk of exposure in a delousing chamber with a faulty gas mask.

[Globus]

Pressac insists that one 200 to 500g canister was all that was used. High concentration levels were only achieved after the Zyklon had fully outgassed in a sealed chamber.

HOw much was used is irrelevant. The concentration would be determined by the size of the room.

[Grapple]

I've addressed this three times. Pay attention.

26 hours has nothing to do with handling the gas safely. It has almost entirely to do with killing the vermin. The gas chambers were not crude and the ventilation issues of the two types was different.
Now you change the story again, ‘the gas chambers were not crude”. Not one so-called “gas chamber” was purpose built for the job. Only two are suppose to have anything more then holes to dump the Zyklon B pellets in. Their gas proofing consists of stuffing paper in holes and yet you say they are not crude?

Also I have paid attention and realize that your claims make no sense. Just because you make a statement it does not make it so. Outgassing Zyklon B pellets are dangerous and the closer you are to them the more dangerous they are yet somehow you think that they kill some Jews in less then a half hour while sparing other Jews and Germans shortly after that
You are being disengenuous. Buki testifies to both processes. The preponderance of the evidence from those who worked the bunkers was that gassing occurred at night and emptying the next day.
But why do that when according to Bruki you only needed to wait a few minutes? I thought they had a “factory of death” at Auschwitz and now you claim that those Germans were lazy and taking the night off. No wonder the Israelis claim that there were more then a million “holocaust survivors” more the sixty years after the end of WW2, those lazy Germans were slackers.
Thirty minutes of airing [assuming Buki's estimate is exact when in fact it could have been longer] the bunkers, , which were not that large, reduced the concentrations enough to permit entry with gas masks.[/quote]
So what, now you don’t trust a holocaust survivors testimony? Since that is all you have for the Bunkers is nothing but testimony it seems that the whole story needs to get thrown out. But no, you will even call your “eyewitness” to be wrong just so you can continue to promote your death cult.

Also since the Zyklon B pellets were still outgassing and since the workers had to bend over to pick up the bodies they would have gotten large concentrations of gas. Plus there was no description that I see of Burki wearing a gas mask? I personally have worn a gas mask for hours at a time and its not something you would forget.

[Globus]

Now you change the story again, ‘the gas chambers were not crude”.

The gas chambers were relatively simple, and very effective.

Not one so-called “gas chamber” was purpose built for the job.

So what?

Only two are suppose to have anything more then holes to dump the Zyklon B pellets in. Their gas proofing consists of stuffing paper in holes and yet you say they are not crude?

The gas chambers of KII-KV did not use paper in holes. They were equipped with gas tight doors and windows that were effective. A simple design was all that was needed.

Also I have paid attention and realize that your claims make no sense. Just because you make a statement it does not make it so. Outgassing Zyklon B pellets are dangerous and the closer you are to them the more dangerous they are yet somehow you think that they kill some Jews in less then a half hour while sparing other Jews and Germans shortly after that.

The pellets are dangerous if the concentration is high enough and if you don't have the benefit of a gas mask if needed. Shortly after the gassing the concentration is reduced to tolerable levels via ventilation.

But why do that when according to Bruki you only needed to wait a few minutes?

He said nothing about what was "needed". He stated what he saw one time.

Recall all the diary entries from Dr. Kremer describing the "special actions" he witnessed at the Bunkers. Nighttime gassings.

I thought they had a “factory of death” at Auschwitz and now you claim that those Germans were lazy and taking the night off.

I don't claim any such thing. You are merely creature characatures of the history because apparently you've run out of serious arguments.


Thirty minutes of airing [assuming Buki's estimate is exact when in fact it could have been longer] the bunkers, , which were not that large, reduced the concentrations enough to permit entry with gas masks.

So what, now you don’t trust a holocaust survivors testimony?

I said no such thing. Only someone looking for something to argue about would claim that witness recollection of how long something took would necessarily be exact. They weren't timing it with a stopwatch!

Since that is all you have for the Bunkers is nothing but testimony it seems that the whole story needs to get thrown out.

Afraid not.

But no, you will even call your “eyewitness” to be wrong just so you can continue to promote your death cult.

I didn't say he was wrong.

Also since the Zyklon B pellets were still outgassing and since the workers had to bend over to pick up the bodies they would have gotten large concentrations of gas.

Nope, the rooms were ventilated, they were relatively small, and the emptied the rooms.

Plus there was no description that I see of Burki wearing a gas mask?

There was no description of whether he took a piss that morning either.

I personally have worn a gas mask for hours at a time and its not something you would forget.

No one said he did.

The point is we know they had gas masks available and that they were worn at the bunkers.

[calvin]

The pellets are dangerous if the concentration is high enough and if you don't have the benefit of a gas mask if needed. Shortly after the gassing the concentration is reduced to tolerable levels via ventilation

Are there any holocaust cheerleaders out there who care to personally demonstrate this?

I notice you didn’t bother to include Pressacs assesement of Sonderkommando member Schlomo Dragon's testimony.

Making a total of 2500 to 2550 people which represents a density of 28 people per square meter over an area of 90m². This is physically impossible and S. Dragon’s estimate of 2500/2550 is clearly wrong. I do not think that this witness was intentionally misleading, but he was following the tendency to exaggerate which seems to have been the general rule at the time of the liberation and which is what gave rise to the figure of 4 million victims for KL. Auschwitz, a figure now considered to be pure propaganda. It should be divided by four to get close to reality

In other words Dragon was a nazi-collaborating stooge who is testifying to anything he is told to testify to. Nice witness.

GOBUS: you distorted the IFC's conclusion

What, this one?

the gas chambers were exposed to high levels of cyanide like the delousing facilities: Professor Jan Markiwicz, Director of the Forensic Institute of Kracow

And yet………

WIKI: Leuchter's opposition to the possibility of gas chambers rests on the relatively low concentration of cyanide residue measured in his sample of the remains of the supposed gas chambers in Auschwitz, compared to his sample of the "delousing chambers" in which clothes were deloused using the same gas, hydrogen cyanide. However, his report contains the assumption that lower concentrations are required for delousing than to kill humans and other warm blooded creatures; in fact, with their simpler structures and slower metabolisms, insects are more resistant to such gross metabolic poisons than mammals. Both toxicological study and practical experience demonstrate that it takes a much higher concentration of cyanide (16,000 parts per million) to kill insects than to kill humans (300 PPM), as well as an exposure time of many hours rather than only minutes

GLOBS: How much was used is irrelevant. The concentration would be determined by the size of the room

And the concentration in that room at any given time would be determined by how long the Zyklon had outgassed…duhhhhh!

[Globus]

Are there any holocaust cheerleaders out there who care to personally demonstrate this?

Best you can do, I guess! Perhaps you can also find some deniers who believe diesel exhaust can't kill!

I notice you didn’t bother to include Pressacs assesement of Sonderkommando member Schlomo Dragon's testimony.

His personal assessment is not evidence, nor does it question whether gas masks were available.

In other words Dragon was a nazi-collaborating stooge who is testifying to anything he is told to testify to. Nice witness.

Nice fiction on your part.

Like all Sonderkommando they were faced with death or the work they were given. That is not collarboration, except in the fevered brain of denier who simply can't get around the masses of evidence for an event he wishes to deny.


What, this one?

Yup, because you don't show that he's talking about in comparison with the living quarters, which were fumigated once. He's talking about cumulative concentrations over multiple exposures, not the concentration level used in the two types of gas chambers.

And yet………

Making my point! And without even pointing out that Leuchter's test was faulty to begin with.

And the concentration in that room at any given time would be determined by how long the Zyklon had outgassed…duhhhhh!

No,but by whether it had been ventilated or not, duhhhh!

[calvin]

No,but by whether it had been ventilated or not, duhhhh!

Was it common practice at Auschwitz to introduce Zyklon for delousing into rooms that were being actively ventilated Globby? I honestly don’t think that you have the slightest clue as to what original statement you are responding to.

The only verifiable thing we can say about Dragon’s testimony is that he told demonstrable untruths. Not only did he say things that were laughably impossible, he said these things at the behest of Communist propagandists. Pressac’s speculations as to why he told these untruths are irrelevant. Dragon is a liar and a stooge, that’s all there is to it.


Yup, because you don't show that he's talking about in comparison with the living quarters, which were fumigated once. He's talking about cumulative concentrations over multiple exposures, not the concentration level used in the two types of gas chambers


The levels of exposure between the gas chambers and the delousing chambers are either similar, as our good Polish doctor asserts, or they are not. To establish your argument you would have to demonstrate that the amount of cyanide that the gas chambers was exposed to was similar to the amount that the delousing chambers were exposed to. Considering that the delousing chambers were exposed to massive concentrations of cyanide for many hours at a time and the gas chambers were exposed to far, far smaller concentrations for minutes at a time and were hosed down after use, I think that you’ve got a lot of research and arithmetic ahead of you. Goodnight dear boy!

[Globus]

Was it common practice at Auschwitz to introduce Zyklon for delousing into rooms that were being actively ventilated Globby.

Do not play with name, unless you'd like to put on notice by the moderators.

Of course it wasn't practice to delousing rooms being ventilated. You've just made my point again. The reason you can't delouse, or gas humans when your actively ventilating is because you can't get the concentration of HCN to the proper levels.

It works the same way on the other end, when you turn on the ventilation system and/or open the doors and windows. The concentration level falls beneath dangerous levels.

[quote]The only verifiable thing we can say about Dragon’s testimony is that he told demonstrable untruths.

No he didn't, so one verifiable thing we can see is that you are willing to tell falsehoods in pursuit of your denial of all evidence.

Not only did he say things that were laughably impossible, he said these things at the behest of Communist propagandists.

No he didn't. He testified to the Poles, and he testified many years later to Gideon Greif.

Pressac’s speculations as to why he told these untruths are irrelevant. Dragon is a liar and a stooge, that’s all there is to it.

Maybe on Hargis' board, but not here or in the real world. Dragon's testimony, along with dozens of others, prove quite convincingly that the Nazis gassed Jews at Auschwitz.

The levels of exposure between the gas chambers and the delousing chambers are either similar, as our good Polish doctor asserts, or they are not.

No, he is either referring to the cumulative concentrations versus rooms seldom gassed, like living quarters, or about the level used in a single gassing. He's talking about the former, as his report clearly states.

So, I'm afraid you have no argument.

By the way Calvin, you posted the following, claiming it was from Markiwicz.

Care to show us where he said this?

the categorical results were that cyanide was found where expected in both the gas chambers and the delousing facilities, and not found in the living quarters, supporting the hypothesis that the gas chambers were exposed to high levels of cyanide like the delousing facilities, and not low levels for routine fumigation, like the living quarters: Professor Jan Markiwicz, Director of the Forensic Institute of kracow

[calvin]

It works the same way on the other end, when you turn on the ventilation system and/or open the doors and windows. The concentration level falls beneath dangerous levels

So even without a ventilation system adequate ventilation can be achieved by opening doors or windows and gas masks would not necessarily be required?

No he didn't, so one verifiable thing we can see is that you are willing to tell falsehoods in pursuit of your denial of all evidence

If I was denying “all” evidence I might have claimed that Dragon had “embellished” an account of his role in an assignment involving the removal and incineration of bodies from a temporary morgue. I am questioning the same allegations that Pressac is questioning. Pressac concludes that Dragon’s testimony was influenced by the post WWII Soviet propaganda campaign, we are merely arguing about the possible extent of that influence.

No he didn't. He testified to the Poles, and he testified many years later to Gideon Greif

What part of “at the behest of Communist propagandists” didn’t you understand?

Care to show us where he said this?

Very, very, interesting, are you saying that I have made a false attribution or that I invented this quote Globby?

[Globus]

So even without a ventilation system adequate ventilation can be achieved by opening doors or windows and gas masks would not necessarily be required?

Such ventilation would work in above ground chambers and gas masks might have been needed. The gas chambers of KIV and KV and both doors and windows opening to the outside.

If I was denying “all” evidence I might have claimed that Dragon had “embellished” an account of his role in an assignment involving the removal and incineration of bodies from a temporary morgue.

That wouldn't be an embellishment, that would be a lie.

I am questioning the same allegations that Pressac is questioning.

No you're not. You're drawing specious conclusions that neither Pressac nor any historian draws, that Dragon was lying and that therefore gas chambers didn't exist.

Pressac concludes that Dragon’s testimony was influenced by the post WWII Soviet propaganda campaign, we are merely arguing about the possible extent of that influence.

He does not conclude that any material facts of the testimony were influenced by anything other than the truth.

What part of “at the behest of Communist propagandists” didn’t you understand?

What's to understand? It's a mindless phrase meant to avoid evidence.

Very, very, interesting, are you saying that I have made a false attribution or that I invented this quote Globby?

Very, very interesting indeed!

Show us the source, Calvin!

[calvin]

That wouldn't be an embellishment, that would be a lie

Making a total of 2500 to 2550 people which represents a density of 28 people per square meter over an area of 90m². This is physically impossible and S. Dragon’s estimate of 2500/2550 is clearly wrong. I do not think that this witness was intentionally misleading, but he was following the tendency to exaggerate which seems to have been the general rule at the time of the liberation and which is what gave rise to the figure of 4 million victims for KL. Auschwitz, a figure now considered to be pure propaganda. It should be divided by four to get close to realityPRESSAC

Pressac knows that the “witness” told outrageous untruths and affirms that all the witnesses did this (he was following the tendency to exaggerate which seems to have been the general rule at the time) and he also knows that they lied in conformity with a Soviet propaganda myth.

Pressac concludes by saying that the figures cited by this “witness” must be divided by four to get close to reality. This means that Pressac is admitting that the witness’s evidence does not come close to conforming to reality. One must then ask on what basis does Pressac base his version of reality?

What's to understand? It's a mindless phrase meant to avoid evidence

It’s a statement of fact affirmed by Pressac when he admits that chronic “exaggerations” were part of a propaganda campaign. It may be just wild speculation on my part but I’m assuming he means Soviet propaganda as per the Burdenko Commission. If you have any information that reveals that Pressac is reffering to a propaganda campaign inspired by the Jehova’s witnesses or the Cracow skittles club, please feel free to divulge it.

]Show us the source, Calvin!

LOL! Are you really trying to tell me that the analysis undertaken by the Forensic Institute of Kracow don’t show similar levels of cyanide deposits in both facilities when the charts that indicate this are published on the sites of your net buddies?

Such ventilation would work in above ground chambers and gas masks might have been needed. The gas chambers of KIV and KV and both doors and windows opening to the outside

You don’t have a clue whether gas masks were required or not and the only witness who you can come up with who testifies to their use has proven to be willing to promote wild exaggerations in support of Soviet propaganda.

Got any credible witnesses Glumpus?

[Globus]

That wouldn't be an embellishment, that would be a lie



LOL! Estimating a large crowd is not a lie.

And it has nothing to do with the veracity of his testimony, corroborated by dozens of other testimonies and many other kinds of evidence.

[quote]Pressac knows that the “witness” told outrageous untruths

No he doesn't. Pressac had fetish about numbers and sometimes he was right and sometimes wrong.

What's to understand? It's a mindless phrase meant to avoid evidence[quote]

[quote]It’s a statement of fact affirmed by Pressac

No, your claim is not affirmed by Pressac. In fact Pressac never accuses any witness of lying about the basic substance of what they saw, Jews being gassed by Nazis.



Originally Posted by Globus.
]Show us the source, Calvin!


[quote]LOL! Are you really trying to tell me that the analysis undertaken by the Forensic Institute of Kracow don’t show similar levels of cyanide deposits in both facilities when the charts that indicate this are published on the sites of your net buddies?

Just as I thought! Calvin dishonestly attrituted a quote to a member of the Krakow Institute and now that he's been caught is looking for a way out.


Such ventilation would work in above ground chambers and gas masks might have been needed. The gas chambers of KIV and KV and both doors and windows opening to the outside

You don’t have a clue whether gas masks were required or not

Sure we do.

and the only witness who you can come up with who testifies to their use has proven to be willing to promote wild exaggerations in support of Soviet propaganda.

He's been shown to be a poor estimator of a large crowd. Only in the delusional world of denial does that mean he didn't see gassed Jews pulled out of gas chambers with gas masks!!

And he isn't the only person to testify to use of gas masks. Nyiszli also testifies to it.

There is also testimony to the Nazis who administered the gas wearing them, as well as their known used in the delousing chambers.

Gas masks were all over the camp.

Got any credible witnesses Glumpus?

Playing with names is not allowed Calvin. But it does tell us something of your frustrations!!

[calvin]

LOL! Estimating a large crowd is not a lie

And it’s just a coincidence that his “misestimation” lent authenticity to a Soviet propaganda myth?

No he doesn't. Pressac had fetish about numbers and sometimes he was right and sometimes wrong

An attempt to make ridiculous evidence conform to reality becomes a “fetish about numbers” you’ve gone right through the looking glass sunshine.

No, your claim is not affirmed by Pressac. In fact Pressac never accuses any witness of lying about the basic substance of what they

“Basic substance” being defined as whatever parts we can get away with at any given time.

And he isn't the only person to testify to use of gas masks. Nyiszli also testifies to it

Was he interviewed by the same panel as Chazan and Dragon?

Gas masks were all over the camp

And two of your "eyewitnesses" were observant enough to have noticed their use in delousing operations.

[Globus]

And it’s just a coincidence that his “misestimation” lent authenticity to a Soviet propaganda myth?

It had nothing to do with Soviet propaganda.

An attempt to make ridiculous evidence conform to reality becomes a “fetish about numbers” you’ve gone right through the looking glass sunshine.

And yet your complaints were about estimating a crowd, which you distorted into a lie,which you then claimed was a reason to ignore the evidence. That is nothing more an excuse for denial.

“Basic substance” being defined as whatever parts we can get away with at any given time.

Basic substance is what happend, how, by whom, against whom. Overwhelming evidence of various kinds converging on the inevitable conclusion.

Was he interviewed by the same panel as Chazan and Dragon?

What difference would that make? And Cazan and Dragon had multiple outlets for their testimony.

And two of your "eyewitnesses" were observant enough to have noticed their use in delousing operations.

That's correct. So we have gas masks in use all over the camp, by medics, by Nazis, and by Sonderkommando. And yet you would have people believe they couldn't have used them in KIV and KV.

It is indeed an intellectual adventure!

[calvin]

It had nothing to do with Soviet propaganda

a figure now considered to be pure propaganda

Earth calling Globus, Earth calling Globus, can you hear me Globus?

And yet your complaints were about estimating a crowd, which you distorted into a lie,which you then claimed was a reason to ignore the evidence. That is nothing more an excuse for denial

My complaint is that Dragon’s testimony contains an absurd untruth that just “coincidentally” tends to support the Soviet four million myth and his deposition was given in Soviet occupied territory. I’d call that a convergance of suspicious circumstances.

Basic substance is what happend, how, by whom, against whom. Overwhelming evidence of various kinds converging on the inevitable conclusion

Unfortunately most of the overwhelming evidence seems to be as dubious as the piece of evidence under discussion at the moment. Are you holding the good stuff back?

What difference would that make? And Cazan and Dragon had multiple outlets for their testimony

Bush and Blair had multiple outlets for their stories about WMD.

That's correct. So we have gas masks in use all over the camp, by medics, by Nazis, and by Sonderkommando. And yet you would have people believe they couldn't have used them in KIV and KV

Well cite your credible eyewitness testimony that affirms the use of these oh so ubiquitous gas masks in KIV and KV and we’ll discuss it then.

It is indeed an intellectual adventure

Your intellectuals are indeed inventive!

[Globus]

Earth calling Globus, Earth calling Globus, can you hear me Globus?

The inevitable landing place of a refuted denier!

My complaint is that Dragon’s testimony contains an absurd untruth that just “coincidentally” tends to support the Soviet four million myth

It doesn't support the Soviet 4 million estimate, which was based on cremation capacity, not how many could fit into a gas chamber. The absurdity is all yours.

Unfortunately most of the overwhelming evidence seems to be as dubious as the piece of evidence under discussion at the moment. Are you holding the good stuff back?

In fact, none of it is, as can be seen by your pathetic attempt to discount a single piece!

Bush and Blair had multiple outlets for their stories about WMD.

But those "outlets" were not participants or witnesses, and thus were not evidence.

Well cite your credible eyewitness testimony that affirms the use of these oh so ubiquitous gas masks in KIV and KV and we’ll discuss it then.

Credible evidence has already been cited and the existence and use of gas masks all over Auschwitz has been established. You're in the sad position of claiming the SK's couldn't enter the gas chambers because they didn't have gas masks, when they were available and used.

Your intellectuals are indeed inventive!

Oh, it's the deniers who are inventive. Without them, you'd have nothing to say!

[calvin]

The inevitable landing place of a refuted denier!

Yes my feet are firmly on the ground whilst yours flap freely in the lofty cloud realm of imagination.

It doesn't support the Soviet 4 million estimate, which was based on cremation capacity, not how many could fit into a gas chamber. The absurdity is all yours

And what was that soviet enhanced cremation capacity supposed to be required to deal with without witnesses willing to testify to absurd death tolls? Lies to support lies Globus.

In fact, none of it is, as can be seen by your pathetic attempt to discount a single piece!

Somewhat akin to your pathetic attempts to supply one credible eyewitness.

But those "outlets" were not participants or witnesses, and thus were not evidence

Do you actually know what “outlets” means?

Credible evidence has already been cited

Shot your bolt then Globbers?

Oh, it's the deniers who are inventive. Without them, you'd have nothing to say!

Without revisionists I suspect we'd still have the Hammer Horror version of Auschwitz.

[Globus]

Shot your bolt then Globbers?

Sorry Calvin, you ceased offering even an argument long ago.

[calvin]

Shot your bolt then Globbers?

[Globus]

Shot your bolt then Globbers?

But is was your bolt that was dismantled, dear denier!

[calvin]

Next witness please Globbers.

[Globus]

Next witness please Globbers.

You were knocked out with one!

[Trojan]

Well, Calvin, its good to see you learned the quote function.
:thanks:

[calvin]

LOL, wish I'd done it years ago.