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Petr
11-14-2006, 06:14 PM
http://www.christianciv.com/Atheists_Confess.htm


Atheists Confess: We Can't Make Sense of the World


Philosophers have debated the same basic issues for thousands of years: How do we know what we know? (epistemology), What is the nature of reality? (metaphysics), How should we live our lives? (ethics). After thousands of years of accumulated wisdom, one might assume that the brightest minds could give some definite answers to these questions.

The fact is, the leading modern atheist philosophers have failed to do that. Every once and a while, they’ll admit it. They cannot prove the existence of an external world or even their own existence. They cannot explain how scientific knowledge is possible. They have failed to find a clear distinction between science and religion. They have failed to explain why we ought to be kind to one another, or kill each other, or care enough to do either.

Publicly, atheist intellectuals often claim to be on the cutting edge of societal evolution, leading the ignorant masses to a more enlightened and humane future; but in reality their attempts explain the world are characterized by irrationalism, arbitrariness, and despair. Here are quotations from leading modern atheist philosophers in which they admit their failures and exemplify the truth of Romans 1:22: "Professing to be wise, they became fools.”



Logical Positivism:

The Vienna Circle did not accomplish all that they once hoped to accomplish. Many of the problems which they tried to settle still remain unsolved.

- A.J. Ayer in The Revolution in Philosophy, ed. Gilbert Ryle (New York: Macmillan, 1960) p. 86. Quoted in Cornelius Van Til, Christian Theistic Evidence, (Nutley, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1978), p. 139-46. (Specifically referring to the “inner-outer problem” of relating language to external facts.)


While for Hans Reichenbach or Bertrand Russell or Ernest Nagel, there was a commitment to clarity in the service of a scientific world-perspective, for post-positivist analytic philosophers, there is no clear rationale for their clarifications: there is no philosophical knowledge to be gained, no demarcation of science from metaphysics or ideology to be drawn, no systematic representation of our concepts to be constructed or critique of our society to be made. Post-positivist analytic philosophers afford us no hope of the gaining of a framework from which such a critique could be carried out. There is no clear conception of what the demand for clarity should come to.

- Kai Neilson, “On Being Skeptical About Applied Ethics,” in Clinical Medical Ethics: Exploration and Assessment, Ed. Terrence F. Ackerman and Glenn C. Graber, et al. (Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1987), pp.107-0.


Morality:

The position of the modern evolutionist is that . . . morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth. Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says 'Love thy neighbor as thyself,' they think they are referring above and beyond themselves. Nevertheless, such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction . . . and any deeper meaning is illusory.

- Michael Ruse, "Evolutionary Theory and Christian Ethics," in The Darwinian Paradigm (London: Routledge, 1989), pp. 262-269.


I hope I am a tolerably reflective chap but I don’t know right of wrong any better, or for that matter, any worse than a tolerably reflective check-out clerk. . . .

It certainly should give anyone rather severe doubts that we have available to us a firmly articulated normative ethical theory that affords us a systematic knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, such that it could give ethicists confidence that they have a moral expertise that will enable them to chart the way in applied ethics. . . .

Post-positivist analytic philosophy in short gave us no distinctive philosophical basis for a critical ethics. Instead the expertise of the post-positivist analytic philosopher is, as Richard Rorty has nicely put it, more like that of a lawyer.

- Kai Neilson, “On Being Skeptical About Applied Ethics,” in Clinical Medical Ethics: Exploration and Assessment, Ed. Terrence F. Ackerman and Glenn C. Graber, et al. (Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1987), pp.95, 100, 107.


To say that there really are objective values out there, that there is a moral reality to be corresponded with, seems as pointless as saying that God is on our side.

- Richard Rorty, "Hermeneutics, General Studies, and Teaching"


About 1880, some French teachers tried to set up a secular ethics which went something like this: God is a useless and costly hypothesis; we are discarding it; but, meanwhile, in order for there to be an ethics, a society, a civilization, it is essential that certain values be taken seriously and that they be considered as having an a priori existence. It must be obligatory, a priori, to be honest, not to lie, not to beat your wife, to have children, etc., etc. So we’re going to try a little device which will make it possible to show what values exist all the same, inscribed in a heaven of ideas, though otherwise God does not exist. In other words–and this, I believe, is the tendency of everything called reformism in France–nothing will be changed if God does not exist. We shall have made of God an outdated hypothesis which will peacefully die off by itself.

The existentialist, on the contrary, thinks it very distressing that God does not exist, because all possibility of finding values in a heaven of ideas disappears along with Him; there can no longer be an a priori Good, since there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it. Nowhere is it written that the Good exists, that we must be honest, that we must not lie; because the fact is that we are on a plane where there are only men. Dostoievsky said, "If God didn’t exist, everything would be possible." That is the very starting point of existentialism. Indeed, everything is permissible if God does not exist, and as a result man is forlorn, because neither within him nor without does he find anything to cling to. He can’t start making excuses for himself.

- Jean-Paul Sartre, “Existentialism,” tr. Bernard Frechtman, in Existentialism and Human Emotions (New York: Citadel Press, 1957), pp.21-23. Quoted in Ed. L. Miller, Questions That Matter: An Invitation to Philosophy, 3rd Ed., (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1992), p. 396.


While all this was going on [the rise of empiricist philosophy of law – M.W.], most likely conditioning it in fact, the knowledge of good and evil, as an intellectual subject, was being systematically and effectively destroyed. The historical fen through which ethical wanderings led was abolished in the early years of this century (not for the first time, but very clearly this time); normative thought crawled out of the swamp and died in the desert. There arose a great number of schools of ethics – axiological, materialistic, evolutionary, intuitionist, situational, existential, and so on – but they all suffered the same fate: either they were seen to be ultimately premised on some intuition (buttressed or not by nosecounts of those seemingly having the same intuitions), or they were more arbitrary than that, based solely on some “for the sake of the argument” premise. I will put the current situation as sharply as possible: there is today no way of “proving” that napalming babies is bad except by asserting it (in a louder and louder voice), or by defining it as so, early in one’s game, and then later slipping it through, in a whisper, as a conclusion.

Now this is a fact of modern intellectual life so well and painfully known as to be one of the few which is simultaneously horrifying and banal.

[FONT="Arial"] - Arthur Allen Leff, “Economic Analysis of Law: Some Realism About Nominalism,” 60 [I]Virginia Law Review [/I](1974) pp. 454-55.[/FONT]


[U][SIZE="4"]Empiricism:[/SIZE][/U]

Where am I, or what? From what causes do I derive my existence, and to what condition shall I return? Whose favour shall I court, and whose anger must I dread? What beings surround me? and on whom have I any influence, or who have any influence on me? I am confounded with all these questions, and begin fancy myself in the most deplorable condition imaginable, inviron’d with the deepest darkness, and utterly depriv’d of the use of every member and faculty.

[FONT="Arial"] - David Hume, [I]Treatise on Human Nature[/I], ed. L.A. Selby-Bigge (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1951; first published in 1739), p. 269.[/FONT]


Academic philosophers, ever since the time of Parmenides, have believed that the world is a unity. . . . The most fundamental of my intellectual beliefs is that this is rubbish. I think the universe is all spots and jumps, without any unity, without continuity, without coherence or oderliness or any of the other properties that governesses love. Indeed, there is little but prejudice and habit to be said for the view that there is a world at all. . . .

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell, [I]The Scientific Outlook[/I], p. 98.[/FONT]


In ontology, I start by accepting the truth of physics. . . . Philosophers may say: What justification have you for accepting the truth of physics? I reply: merely a common-sense basis. . . .

I believe (though without good grounds) in the world of physics as well as in the world of psychology. . . .

If we are to hold that we know anything of the external world, we must accept the canons of scientific knowledge. Whether . . . an individual decides to accept or reject these canons, is a purely personal affair, not susceptible to argument.

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell[/FONT]


That scientific inference requires, for its validity, principles which experience cannot render even probable is, I believe, an inescapable conclusion from the logic of probability. . . . "Knowledge," in my opinion, is a much less precise concept than is generally thought, and has its roots more deeply embedded in unverbalized animal behavior than most philosophers have been willing to admit. . . . To ask, therefore, whether we "know" the postulates of scientific inference is no so definite a question as it seems. . . . In the sense in which "no" is the right answer we know nothing whatsoever, and "knowledge" in this sense is a delusive vision. The perplexities of philosophers are due, in a large measure, to their unwillingness to awaken from this blissful dream.

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell, [I]Human Knowledge: Its Scope and Limits [/I](New York: Clarion Books, Simon and Schuster, 1948), pp. xv-xvi.[/FONT]


[U][SIZE="4"]Future of Despair:[/SIZE][/U]

. . . [A]ll the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins — all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell, “A Free Man’s Religion” (1903), in [I]Mysticism and Logic [/I](Garden City, New York: Anchor, n.d.), pp. 45-46.[/FONT]


There is darkness without and when I die there will be darkness within. There is no splendor, no vastness, anywhere; only triviality for a moment, and then nothing.

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell, [I]Autobiography[/I], vol. 2 (London: George Allen and Unwin, 1968) p. 159[/FONT]


[SIZE="4"][U]Philosophy in general:[/U][/SIZE]

I am afraid we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar.

[FONT="Arial"] - Friedrich Nietzsche, [I]Twilight of the Idols[/I], Ch. 2.[/FONT]


Insofar as I had any project in mind, it was to reconcile Trotsky and the orchids. I only wanted to find some intellectual or aesthetic framework that would let me – in a thrilling phrase I came across in Yeats – “hold reality and justice in a single vision.”

. . . As I tried to figure out what had gone wrong, I gradually decided that the whole idea of holding reality and justice in a single vision had been a mistake that a pursuit of such a vision had been precisely what led Plato astray [sic]. More specifically, I decided that only religion -- only a non-argumentative faith in a surrogate parent who, unlike any real parent, embodied love, power, and justice in equal measure -- could do the trick Plato wanted done. Since I couldn't imagine becoming religious, and indeed had gotten more and more raucously secularist, I decided that the hope of achieving a single vision by becoming a philosopher had been a self-deceptive atheist's way out.

[FONT="Arial"] - Richard Rorty, “Wild Orchids and Trotsky” (1993).[/FONT]


I have caught the Holy Ghost in the cellars and flung him out of them. Atheism is a cruel, long-term business: I believe I have gone through it to the end.

[FONT="Arial"] - Jean-Paul Sartre, [I]Words[/I] ([I]Les mots[/I]) (1964).[/FONT]


There can be no doubt that the hope of finding reason to believe such theses as these [doctrines such as the essential rationality of the universe - M.W.] has been the chief inspiration of many life-long students of philosophy. This hope, I believe, is vain. It would seem that knowledge concerning the universe as a whole is not to be obtained by metaphysics.

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell, [I]The Problems of Philosophy[/I] (New York: Oxford University Press, reprinted 1973), p. 141.[/FONT]


While for Hans Reichenbach or Bertrand Russell or Ernest Nagel, there was a commitment to clarity in the service of a scientific world-perspective, for post-positivist analytic philosophers, there is no clear rationale for their clarifications: there is no philosophical knowledge to be gained, no demarcation of science from metaphysics or ideology to be drawn, no systematic representation of our concepts to be constructed or critique of our society to be made. Post-positivist analytic philosophers afford us no hope of the gaining of a framework from which such a critique could be carried out. There is no clear conception of what the demand for clarity should come to.

- Kai Neilson, “On Being Skeptical About Applied Ethics,” in Clinical Medical Ethics: Exploration and Assessment, Ed. Terrence F. Ackerman and Glenn C. Graber, et al. (Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1987), pp.107-0.


[U][SIZE="4"]Mathematics:[/SIZE][/U]

The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility.

[FONT="Arial"] - Albert Einstein, [I]Out of My Later Years [/I](New York: Citadel Press, [1950, 1956, 1984] 1991), p. 61; quoted in James Nickel, [I]Mathematics: Is God Silent?[/I] (Vallecito, CA: Ross House Books, 2001), p. 195.[/FONT]


You find it surprising that I think of the comprehensibility of the world . . . as a miracle or an eternal mystery. But surely, a priori, one should expect the world to be chaotic, not to be grasped by thought in any way. One might (indeed one should) expect that the world evidence itself as lawful only so far as we grasp it in an orderly fashion. This would be a sort of order like the alphabetical order of words in a language. On the other hand, the kind of order created, for example, by Newton’s gravitational theory is a very different character. Even if the axioms of the theory are posited by man, the success of such a procedure supposes in the objective world a high degree of order which we are in no special way entitled to expect a priori. Therein lies the “miracle” which becomes more and more evident as our knowledge develops. . . . And here is the weak point of positivists and of professional atheists, who feel happy because they think that they have not only pre-empted the world of the divine, but also of the miraculous. Curiously, we have to be resigned to recognize the “miracle” without having any legitimate way of getting any further. I have to add the past point explicitly, lest you think that, weakened by age, I have fallen into the hands of priests.

[FONT="Arial"] - Albert Einstein, [I]Lettres À Maurice Solovine[/I] (Paris: Gauthier-Villars, 1956), pp. 114-115; quoted in Nickel, p. 210.[/FONT]


Mathematics is the subject in which we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true.

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell, "Recent Work on the Principles of Mathematics," [I]The International Monthly[/I], 4 (1901), p. 84; quoted in Nickel, p. 195.[/FONT]


I wanted certainty in the kind of way in which people want religious faith. I thought certainty is more likely to be found in mathematics than elsewhere. But I discovered that many mathematical demonstrations, which my teachers expected me to accept, were full of fallacies, and that, if certainty were indeed discoverable in mathematics, it would be in a new field of mathematics, with more solid foundations than those that had hitherto been thought secure. But as the work proceeded, I was continually reminded of the fable about the elephant and the tortoise. Having constructed an elephant upon which the mathematical world could rest, I found the elephant tottering, and proceeded to construct a tortoise to keep the elephant from falling. But the tortoise was no more secure than the elephant, and after some twenty years of very arduous toil, I came to the conclusion that there was nothing more that I could do in the way of making mathematical knowledge indubitable.

[FONT="Arial"] - Bertrand Russell, [I]The Autobiography of Bertrand Russell[/I], 3 vol. (London: George Allen and Unwin, 1969) 3:220; quoted in Nickel, p. 195-96.[/FONT]


The question of whether it is possible to make some kind of ontology the basis of modern mathematics is left open by most people working in mathematical fields. Fearing to introduce into mathematics arguments of a metaphysical nature, the philosophically minded mathematician will avoid as much as possible reference to mathematical existence independent of human thought. In general it can be said that under the impact of the pragmatist attitude, for the philosopher of mathematics the workability of mathematical systems rather than their interpretability has become the central point of view. Reflections of an epistemological nature as well as reflections regarding for example mathematical truth are not readily undertaken by mathematicians of the pragmatistic type.

[FONT="Arial"] - Willem Kuyk, “The Irreducibility of the Number Concept,”[I] Philosophia Reformata[/I], 31 (1966), 37; quoted in Nickel, p. 211.[/FONT]


None of the three forms of the foundations of mathematics, the intuitionist, the formalist, or the logistic, is capable of completely rationalizing the relation between tautological systems and (extramathematical) experiences, which is its very purpose, i.e. to make this relation a part of the mathematical system itself.

[FONT="Arial"] - Richard Von Mises, “Mathematical Postulates and Human Understanding,” [I]The World of Mathematics[/I], ed. James R. Newman (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1956), 3:1754; quoted in Nickel, p. 206.[/FONT]


What makes mathematics so effective when it enters science is a mystery of mysteries, and the present book wants to achieve no more than to explicate how deep this mystery is.

[FONT="Arial"] - Salomon Bochner, [I]The Role of Mathematics in the Rise of Science [/I](Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1966), p. v; quoted in Nickel, p. 207.[/FONT]


How a mathematical structure can correspond to nature is a mystery. One way out is just to say that the language in which nature speaks is the language of mathematics. This begs the question. Often we are both shocked and surprised by the correspondence between mathematics and nature, especially when the experiment confirms that our mathematical model describes nature perfectly.

[FONT="Arial"] - Remo J. Ruffini, "The Princeton Galaxy," interviews by Florence Heltizer, [I]Intellectual Digest[/I], 3 (1973), p. 27; quoted in Nickel, p. 209.[/FONT]


. . . [F]undamentally, we do not know why our theories work so well. . . . The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning.

[FONT="Arial"] - Eugene Wigner, "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences," [I]Symmetries and Reflections: Scientific Essays [/I](Cambridge and London: The MIT Press, 1970) p. 237.[/FONT]


From all of this I am forced to conclude both that mathematics is unreasonably effective and that all of the explanations I have given when added together simply are not enough to explain what I set out to account for. I think that we --meaning you, mainly -- must continue to try to explain why the logical side of science --meaning mathematics, mainly -- is the proper tool for exploring the universe as we perceive it at present. I suspect that my explanations are hardly as good as those of the early Greeks, who said for the material side of the question that the nature of the universe is earth, fire, water, and air. The logical side of the nature of the universe requires further exploration.

[FONT="Arial"] - Richard W. Hamming, "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics," [I]American Mathematical Monthly[/I], Vol. 87 No. 2 (1980).[/FONT]


If the prospect of a dying universe causes us anguish, it does so only because we can forecast it, and we have as yet not the slightest idea why such forecasts are possible for us. A few figures scrawled on a piece of paper can describe the rate the universe expands, reveal what goes on inside a star, or predict where the planet Neptune will be on New Year's Day in the year a.d. 25,000. Why? Why should nature, whether hostile or benign, be in any way intelligible to us? All the mysteries of science are but palace guards to that mystery.

[FONT="Arial"] - Timothy Ferris, [I]The Red Limit: The Search for the Edge of the Universe [/I](New York: William Morrow, 1977), pp. 217-18; quoted in Gary North, [I]Is the World Running Down?: Crisis in the Christian Worldview [/I](Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1988), p. 13.[/FONT]


[U][SIZE="4"]Psychology[/SIZE][/U]

I left there feeling, Well, I started this damned thing, and look where it's taking us; I don't even know where it's taking me. I don't have any idea what's going to happen next. And I woke up the next morning feeling so depressed, that I could hardly stand it. And I realized what was wrong. Yes, I started this thing, and now look where it's carrying us. Where is it going to carry us? And did I start something that is in some fundamental way mistaken, and will lead us off into paths that we will regret?

[FONT="Arial"] - Dr. Carl Rogers, in a tape made with colleague Dr. William Coulson in 1976 after destroying an order of nuns with his non-directive therapy. [url]http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a080.html[/url][/FONT]

Insidium
11-14-2006, 06:54 PM
Nice strawman, Petr.

The fact is, the leading modern atheist philosophers have failed to do that. Every once and a while, they’ll admit it. They cannot prove the existence of an external world or even their own existence. They cannot explain how scientific knowledge is possible. They have failed to find a clear distinction between science and religion. They have failed to explain why we ought to be kind to one another, or kill each other, or care enough to do either.

It is better to admit when one does not know something than to claim to know something despite the facts. Regardless, naturalism and empiricism give us useful knowledge about the world. Ethics and morality don't have to be entirely rational, but they should be rationally justifiable. Relativism is bullshit. I'm glad that you took a lot of depressing-sounding quotes from these philosophers, any failed to address any of their primary arguments and contributions though.

I guess I should probably commit suicide now, Petr. You've convinced me that my life, as an atheist, should, for some reason, be particularly depressing.

Petr
11-14-2006, 06:58 PM
I guess I should probably commit suicide now, Petr. You've convinced me that my life, as an atheist, should, for some reason, be particularly depressing.
Many atheists, especially naivë young ones, are sheltered from the banal meaninglessness of their worldview by intellectual inconsistency and romantic delusions.

The above citations are from men who have cast away juvenile illusions.


Petr

Insidium
11-14-2006, 07:02 PM
Funny, I recently read books by two of the most prominent atheists of the day - Dawkins and Harris - and they seem to have very life-affirming, satisfied attitudes.

Are they also naive as to the philosophy they espouse?

Geist
11-14-2006, 07:05 PM
Petr: Presumably they cannot make sense of the world because the world is generally incomprehensible. Admitting they are unable to do so is an act of intellectual honesty opposed to the intellectual dishonesty of pretending to have an over-reaching way of evaluating the world such as a Christian may have.

Petr
11-14-2006, 07:26 PM
Funny, I recently read books by two of the most prominent atheists of the day - Dawkins and Harris - and they seem to have very life-affirming, satisfied attitudes.
They are sheltered from the awful truth by their ridiculous egoes, comforted by megalomaniacal delusions. They are shallow people, and shallow people are superficially happy.


Petr

Petr
11-14-2006, 07:29 PM
Petr: Presumably they cannot make sense of the world because the world is generally incomprehensible.
It is incomprehensible for the unbelievers who have abandoned the true God.

Admitting they are unable to do so is an act of intellectual honesty opposed to the intellectual dishonesty of pretending to have an over-reaching way of evaluating the world such as a Christian may have.
An atheist is being honest and intellectually consistent with his own worldview when views he everything as meaningless. It would be exactly the other way round for a Christian, for whom everything is intensely meaningful.


Petr

Insidium
11-14-2006, 08:13 PM
They are sheltered from the awful truth by their ridiculous egoes, comforted by megalomaniacal delusions. They are shallow people, and shallow people are superficially happy.


Petr

Ah, so you're qualified in psychology as well now, are you? I happen to think that living one's life as a slave to an archaic ideology overseen by an omnipotent bully is pretty depressing. It's also a pretty shallow existence since you're living a lie. :)

Insidium
11-14-2006, 08:14 PM
An atheist is being honest and intellectually consistent with his own worldview when views he everything as meaningless. It would be exactly the other way round for a Christian, for whom everything is intensely meaningful.


Petr

There is a difference between something being inherently, universally meaningful, and simply meaningful. Many things in my life are simply meaningful, even if nothing is in the former sense of the term. I am not bothered one bit.

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 05:25 AM
It is incomprehensible for the unbelievers who have abandoned the true God.

Which God is this? Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Buttfucking Martians, YHVH, Wotan, Posiedon, Jupiter? Also, where do you get off saying there is one god?

An atheist is being honest and intellectually consistent with his own worldview when views he everything as meaningless.

This is utterly false.

[quote]It would be exactly the other way round for a Christian, for whom everything is intensely meaningful.

So, are you saying the reason you don't murder people is because you fear YHVH will hold you accountable?

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 05:26 AM
They are sheltered from the awful truth by their ridiculous egoes, comforted by megalomaniacal delusions. They are shallow people, and shallow people are superficially happy.


Petr

Note: This is coming from a guy who believes dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark.

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 05:44 AM
http://www.christianciv.com/Atheists_Confess.htm


Atheists Confess: We Can't Make Sense of the World


Philosophers have debated the same basic issues for thousands of years: How do we know what we know? (epistemology), What is the nature of reality? (metaphysics), How should we live our lives? (ethics). After thousands of years of accumulated wisdom, one might assume that the brightest minds could give some definite answers to these questions.

The fact is, the leading modern atheist philosophers have failed to do that. Every once and a while, they’ll admit it. They cannot prove the existence of an external world or even their own existence.

Well, of course they can't. (Of course, that depends on your definition of "prove".)

They cannot explain how scientific knowledge is possible.

What makes you think they cant? And it depends on your definition of 'knowledge' and 'possible'.

They have failed to find a clear distinction between science and religion.

This one isn't true.

They have failed to explain why we ought to be kind to one another, or kill each other, or care enough to do either.

Well, of course not. Although there are some good theories as to why we do or don't do these things.

Petr, I don't think you get the whole point of science, despite article after article that you post.

SCIENCE DOES NOT CLAIM TO BE TRUTH.

Pause a minute and concentrate on that to let it sink in.

Science does no more than provide a model - a model that explains what is observed, and one that predicts what will happen under certain circumstances.

Religious explanations for natural phenomena DO claim to be truth, and yet are completely useless for actually predicting anything.

These "explanations" only explain that there is a mystical force at play, but don't make any attempt whatsoever to explain WHY things happen the way they do.

Any "science" that predicts nothing, and explains the workings of nothing, is completely useless. Bible "science" is an excellent example.

If modern science is really some fraud to steer us away from "god", then why is it so darn useful, whereas 'gods' explanations are completely useLESS?

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 05:52 AM
Note: This is coming from a guy who believes dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark.

I wonder if it got weird having all of those Neandertals, Australopithecus, and humans all together in one place. Didn't they wonder why only two of each of them were aboard, but there were quite a few more humans? Maybe they had some kinky parties. :hump: :whip:

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 05:56 AM
According to Petr, they were all modern humans. I'm also having trouble fitting archaic humans and dinosaurs into a world less than 10,000 year old.

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 06:12 AM
According to Petr, they were all modern humans. I'm also having trouble fitting archaic humans and dinosaurs into a world less than 10,000 year old.

Ah, I think I've heard that theory before - the "every human skeleton that just so happens to appear really old also just so happens to be of a retarded or otherwise malformed person."

What is interesting is the direct correlation between the false age of the fossils and the degree of deformity.

It is also kinda puzzling that such grossly deformed human specimens were able to survive to adulthood way back then.

Petr
11-15-2006, 09:05 AM
Which God is this? Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Buttfucking Martians, YHVH, Wotan, Posiedon, Jupiter? Also, where do you get off saying there is one god?
As I've said, we have thousand ways of showing the superiority of our God to any honest seeker. You are not among them, so I won't waste time trying to convince you.

It's inegalitarian approach, I know. Many are called, but few are chosen.

This is utterly false.
News to Deadalus: your say-so doesn't make the slightest difference. :)

So, are you saying the reason you don't murder people is because you fear YHVH will hold you accountable?
That would be one reason. Another would be that the Bible makes me recognize my proper status in God's creation and understand that murder would be a violation of harmony He has established.


Petr

Petr
11-15-2006, 09:06 AM
Note: This is coming from a guy who believes dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark.
The most extreme Christian fundie has a firmer grasp on reality than an intellectually honest atheist does (the latter are a rare breed).


Petr

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 09:42 AM
As I've said, we have thousand ways of showing the superiority of our God to any honest seeker. You are not among them, so I won't waste time trying to convince you.

Show us the thousands of ways.

It's inegalitarian approach, I know. Many are called, but few are chosen.

In other words, Petr has been stopped dead in his tracks. His religion is based ultimately upon irrationality. Take note of this.

News to Deadalus: your say-so doesn't make the slightest difference. :)

It's simply an unsubstantiated accusation. There are plenty of atheists who find their lives meaningful without recourse to the Bible. Similarly, vast swaths of humanity are non-Christians, yet still find their lives meaningful as well. There is no evidence whatsoever that life having meaning depends upon this particular barbaric text.

That would be one reason. Another would be that the Bible makes me recognize my proper status in God's creation and understand that murder would be a violation of harmony He has established.

Plenty of people live completely normal lives while rejecting the Bible and its claims.

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 09:45 AM
The most extreme Christian fundie has a firmer grasp on reality than an intellectually honest atheist does (the latter are a rare breed).

You claimed above that atheists are comforted by "megalomaniacal delusions." For the record, a delusion is a belief held with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion#Psychiatric_definition

certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

^^ Could there possibly be a better description of your worldview?

Petr
11-15-2006, 10:18 AM
You claimed above that atheists are comforted by "megalomaniacal delusions."
By this I meant those intellectually dishonest atheists who actually think that anything in their life has a purpose.


Petr

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 10:31 AM
By this I meant those intellectually dishonest atheists who actually think that anything in their life has a purpose.


Petr

Once again, how is "life having a purpose" dependent upon the Bible? Your old friend James Watson weighs in on this:

"I asked Watson whether he knew many religious scientists today. He replied: 'Virtually none. Occasionally I meet them, and I'm a bit embarrassed [laughs] because, you know, I can't believe anyone accepts truth by revelation.'

Francis Crick, Watson's co-founder of the whole molecular genetics revolution, resigned his fellowship at Churchill College, Cambridge, because of the college's decision to build a chapel (at the behest of a benefactor_. In my interview with Watson at Clare, I conscientiously put it to him that, unlike him and Crick, some people see no conflict between science and religion, because they claim science is about how things work and religion is about what it is all for. Watson retorted: 'Well I don't think we're for anything. We're just products of evolution. You can say, "Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose." But I'm anticipating having a good lunch.' We did have a good lunch, too."

Dawkins, The God Delusion, p.100

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 11:39 AM
As I've said, we have thousand ways of showing the superiority of our God to any honest seeker. You are not among them, so I won't waste time trying to convince you.

In other words, "i don't have an answer."

It's inegalitarian approach, I know. Many are called, but few are chosen.

That's not very christian of you.

News to Deadalus: your say-so doesn't make the slightest difference. :)

You're absolutely right - telling you it is false is not what makes it false. It is false all on its own.

That would be one reason. Another would be that the Bible makes me recognize my proper status in God's creation and understand that murder would be a violation of harmony He has established.


Petr


And murder is also your 'god's' favorite weapon that he doesn't mind using to impose 'harmony' when necessary.

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 11:42 AM
The most extreme Christian fundie has a firmer grasp on reality than an intellectually honest atheist does (the latter are a rare breed).


Petr

LOL I've never heard of any extreme Christian fundies helping to discover the cures for any diseases. Can you think of any?

God must be really twisted if he stacked the deck such that those who truly trust his word to the letter have nothing to show for it, and those who don't are the ones responsible for all innovation.

Petr
11-15-2006, 12:00 PM
Once again, how is "life having a purpose" dependent upon the Bible?
If you think that you can solve every problem and contradiction within atheism by attacking the Bible, you are sorely mistaken. That you seem to think so would clearly indicate that you are one of these juvenile atheists.

In fact, the utter hollowness of atheistic worldview usually becomes apparent at the point where it can no longer just parasitically criticize theistic worldviews but must stand on its own two feet.

Your old friend James Watson weighs in on this:
Why does his opinion or say-so matter?

(Shallow Fade is always copying his opinions from the latest book he has read.)


Petr

Petr
11-15-2006, 12:02 PM
LOL I've never heard of any extreme Christian fundies helping to discover the cures for any diseases. Can you think of any?
You clearly had no idea what I was driving at. I have no intention to waste too much time on you, bimbo.


Petr

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 12:11 PM
If you think that you can solve every problem and contradiction within atheism by attacking the Bible, you are sorely mistaken. That you think seem to think so would clearly indicate that you are one of these juvenile atheists.

In fact, the utter hollowness of atheistic worldview usually becomes apparent at the point where it can no longer just parasitically criticize theistic worldviews but must stand on its own two feet.

Agnosticism doesn't pretend to have any answers for anything. In fact the literal meaning of agnostic is "without knowledge."

The religions of the world, however, all claim to have all of the answers. christians claim it is all coded in a little book. The fact that these 'answers' don't solve any problems or serve any useful purpose doesn't seem to bother any of them.

It is silly to say that an agnostic's life must be without meaning. Just because all meaning isn't served up pre-chewed as it is with christianity doesn't mean there isn't any.

Sorry, but anyone who claims to have all the answers to everything in the universe in a little book (most of which only deals with carnage and persecuting people anyway) it a fraudster in the extreme.

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 12:14 PM
You clearly had no idea what I was driving at. I have no intention to waste too much time on you, bimbo.


Petr


Lol Bimbo?

If I really were a christian I'd beg you to stop posting and making the religion look bad. Since i want everyone to see how lame your ghost worship is, however, keep right on doing what you're doing.

Petr
11-15-2006, 01:10 PM
Watson retorted: 'Well I don't think we're for anything. We're just products of evolution. You can say, "Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose." But I'm anticipating having a good lunch.' We did have a good lunch, too."
What a shallow fool. But anyways, you used to make lots of noise last spring about "telos" and so forth, a regular Aristotle.

How exactly do you plan to marry the thought of Aristotle to that of Watson? Please tell us.

Also, does Watson believe in any kind of ethics? If so, on what basis?


Petr

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 01:48 PM
What a shallow fool. But anyways, you used to make lots of noise last spring about "telos" and so forth, a regular Aristotle.

I don't recall saying anything about evolution having a teleological purpose. Evolution is a blind natural process.

How exactly do you plan to marry the thought of Aristotle to that of Watson? Please tell us.

That human beings have a rational capacity does not imply evolution is driven by something similar. Purpose is a human quality, not something derived externally from religious scribblings.

Also, does Watson believe in any kind of ethics? If so, on what basis?

I'm not sure. Watson is a scientist, not a moral philosopher. I know he is a strong advocate of germline therapy and believes morality has a genetic basis.

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 01:54 PM
If you think that you can solve every problem and contradiction within atheism by attacking the Bible, you are sorely mistaken. That you seem to think so would clearly indicate that you are one of these juvenile atheists.

I don't see any problems or contradictions in atheism. Fact is, none of the things you attribute to the Bible (morality, purpose, meaning, fulfillment, etc.) actually come from there. Atheists are normal people who live normal lives without recourse to your cult and its lies.

In fact, the utter hollowness of atheistic worldview usually becomes apparent at the point where it can no longer just parasitically criticize theistic worldviews but must stand on its own two feet.

Atheism is not a worldview in its own right. It is simply a denial that supernatural deities exist. This was explained to you in the other thread.

Why does his opinion or say-so matter? (Shallow Fade is always copying his opinions from the latest book he has read.)

I found his point amusing. There might not be any purpose in the transcendental Christian sense, but purpose still exists nevertheless. I don't believe in any of the religous mumbojumbo you believe in. I don't find my life meaningless or purposeless, though.

Captain Marinesko
11-15-2006, 02:04 PM
Ahem...atheism is not denial of the supernatural but simply the lack of belief in it. Small difference but important nonetheless.

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 02:07 PM
What a shallow fool. But anyways, you used to make lots of noise last spring about "telos" and so forth, a regular Aristotle.

How exactly do you plan to marry the thought of Aristotle to that of Watson? Please tell us.

Also, does Watson believe in any kind of ethics? If so, on what basis?


Petr

You assume that you need to have a religion to have ethics? That's pretty shortsighted.

So is your 'ethics' motivated solely out of fear of torture by your god after you die if you don't do what he tells you in life?

I argue that YOU are the one without ethics. You have no real free will if you're only motivation is fear of eternal torture.

I am an agnostic - since I don't have any fear of getting tortured by any gods, I can develop my own internal locus of control. I have have more 'free will' than you do - I'M the one who has a sense of ethics.

Captain Marinesko
11-15-2006, 02:12 PM
Yeah, you'd have to be a downright evil person if the only reason why you don't say...rape someone is because you are afraid of eternal suffering in hell meted out by an antrhopomorphic God.

Insidium
11-15-2006, 03:17 PM
I've never seen anyone try so hard to convince me that my life is meaningless. I'm sure that Petr, as the good, benevolent Christian that he is, would love it if due to my atheism I was depressed. But this is not so. Sorry, you sadistic fuck.

Dawkins effectively argues that we do not get our ethics from the Bible, or any holy book. There is far too much retrograde garbage in there to be accepted in modern society. Instead, people cherry-pick quotes out of the Bible to get the "true message," which is primarily motivated by other (primarily social) factors. Assuming that a religion is necessary either for meaning or ethical behavior is a very sophomoric mindset.

Sometimes I worry that if I convince Petr that his views are bullshit, he might go out and kill someone since religious people are often immoral at heart, and act morally only out of fear of divine retribution. They are ultimately being selfish.

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 03:46 PM
Yeah, you'd have to be a downright evil person if the only reason why you don't say...rape someone is because you are afraid of eternal suffering in hell meted out by an antrhopomorphic God.

Petr worships a demon.

Petr
11-15-2006, 03:50 PM
Petr worships a demon.
Are you trying to curry Wintermute's favor?

OK, loudmouth. Tell me how I'm worshipping a "demon." Let's see if you can make the argument in philosophical terms without resorting to empty emotional soundbites. :)


Petr

Petr
11-15-2006, 03:52 PM
I've never seen anyone try so hard to convince me that my life is meaningless. I'm sure that Petr, as the good, benevolent Christian that he is, would love it if due to my atheism I was depressed. But this is not so. Sorry, you sadistic fuck.

Dawkins effectively argues that we do not get our ethics from the Bible, or any holy book. There is far too much retrograde garbage in there to be accepted in modern society. Instead, people cherry-pick quotes out of the Bible to get the "true message," which is primarily motivated by other (primarily social) factors. Assuming that a religion is necessary either for meaning or ethical behavior is a very sophomoric mindset.

Sometimes I worry that if I convince Petr that his views are bullshit, he might go out and kill someone since religious people are often immoral at heart, and act morally only out of fear of divine retribution. They are ultimately being selfish.
How old are you? Your whole attitude reeks immaturity.


Petr

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 03:56 PM
Are you trying to curry Wintermute's favor?

OK, loudmouth. Tell me how I'm worshipping a "demon." Let's see if you can make the argument in philosophical terms without resorting to empty emotional soundbites. :)


Petr

No. It is the only term I find descriptive of the malevolent deity you worship.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/demon

de‧mon  /ˈdihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngmən/ Pronunciation Key (http://www.thephora.net/forum/) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (http://www.thephora.net/forum/)[dee-muhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Pronunciation Key (http://www.thephora.net/forum/) - Show IPA Pronunciation (http://www.thephora.net/forum/)

–noun 1.an evil spirit; devil or fiend. 2.an evil passion or influence. 3.a person considered extremely wicked, evil, or cruel. 4.a person with great energy, drive, etc.: He's a demon for work. 5.a person, esp. a child, who is very mischievous: His younger son is a real little demon. 6.daemon. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=daemon) 7.Australian Slang. a policeman, esp. a detective. –adjective 8.of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or noting a demon. 9.possessed or controlled by a demon.

Petr
11-15-2006, 04:04 PM
Fade relies to a very great extent on flashy but empty emotional rhetoric.

(You may have noticed on this forum that I have not constantly tried to fiddle my listeners' emotions. That is what makes me sound so harsh.)

The words of John Earman about David Hume can be applied to him:

"[Hume] was able to create the illusion of a powerful argument by maintaining ambiguities in his claims against miracles, by the use of forceful prose and confident pronouncements, and by liberal doses of sarcasm and irony...."

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/hume01.html


Petr

Fade the Butcher
11-15-2006, 04:22 PM
Fade relies to a very great extent on flashy but empty emotional rhetoric.

As Richard Dawkins fairly points out, the God of the Old Testament is one of the cruelest and most repulsive figures in all of literature.

(You may have noticed on this forum that I have not constantly tried to fiddle my listeners' emotions. That is what makes me sound so harsh.) The words of John Earman about David Hume can be applied to him:

The evidence speaks for itself. So does the bankruptcy of creationist arguments. A few of my favorites in this debate so far:

Ex. 1.) That's only based on reality!
Ex. 2.) It's true because he is willing to die for it!
Ex. 3.) Morality comes from a book most people have never read!
Ex. 4.) It has to be true because the Bible says so!
Ex. 5.) Dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark!

Petr
11-15-2006, 04:34 PM
As Richard Dawkins fairly points out, the God of the Old Testament is one of the cruelest and most repulsive figures in all of literature.
Empty emotional soundbites. Why should a consistent materialist be bothered by cruelty? What objective standards can there be for "repulsiveness"?


"As with most bibliosceptics, he loves to feign outrage at parts of the Bible. Never mind that if we are all rearranged pond scum as he and all evolutionists believe, then our sense of outrage is just an epiphenomenon of something that evolved for survival advantage in our hypothetical ape-like ancestors. Nor does he bother to distinguish between *reporting* of an event and *approval* of same. And horror of horrors, a holy God who owns His creation and has the right to judge sin is just too much for the poor boy's sensibilities."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1XLEBP9QSTJCP/002-9420252-8321647?%5Fencoding=UTF8&display=public&page=4


Petr

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 04:35 PM
I've never seen anyone try so hard to convince me that my life is meaningless. I'm sure that Petr, as the good, benevolent Christian that he is, would love it if due to my atheism I was depressed. But this is not so. Sorry, you sadistic fuck.

Dawkins effectively argues that we do not get our ethics from the Bible, or any holy book. There is far too much retrograde garbage in there to be accepted in modern society. Instead, people cherry-pick quotes out of the Bible to get the "true message," which is primarily motivated by other (primarily social) factors. Assuming that a religion is necessary either for meaning or ethical behavior is a very sophomoric mindset.

Sometimes I worry that if I convince Petr that his views are bullshit, he might go out and kill someone since religious people are often immoral at heart, and act morally only out of fear of divine retribution. They are ultimately being selfish.

I've always figured that the perfect recipe for a deliberately-designed religion is one that is so vague and internally inconsistent that ANYONE could go through it and find a few dozen passages that comport with the way they want to live their lives anyway.

Add in for good measure a powerful motivation to recruit new members to the Ponzi scheme and you're already most of the way there.

Christianity is one of the most successful for that very reason. Islam is Christianity's nephew and adopts much of the same material - that's why it too is one of the big leaders.

Halo
11-15-2006, 04:35 PM
http://www.christianciv.com/Atheists_Confess.htm


Atheists Confess: We Can't Make Sense of the World


Philosophers have debated the same basic issues for thousands of years: How do we know what we know? (epistemology), What is the nature of reality? (metaphysics), How should we live our lives? (ethics). After thousands of years of accumulated wisdom, one might assume that the brightest minds could give some definite answers to these questions.

The fact is, the leading modern atheist philosophers have failed to do that. Every once and a while, they’ll admit it. They cannot prove the existence of an external world or even their own existence. They cannot explain how scientific knowledge is possible. They have failed to find a clear distinction between science and religion. They have failed to explain why we ought to be kind to one another, or kill each other, or care enough to do either.

I can prove my existence. I can doubt that I exist, of course, but I can not doubt that I doubt. That is I doubt. And to doubt, I have to be. I doubt, therefore I am.

I win?

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 04:38 PM
Are you trying to curry Wintermute's favor?

OK, loudmouth. Tell me how I'm worshipping a "demon." Let's see if you can make the argument in philosophical terms without resorting to empty emotional soundbites. :)


Petr

I could argue that 'god' is inferior to satan, but I'm afraid that you'd peg me as a satanist (which I am obviously not.) And of course, I don't believe in either (rather, I don't know and don't care if they exist.)

But I'd argue that, while satan has manipulated 'god', the reverse has never happened as far as i know. Satan conned god into torturing one of his most faithful proponents (Lot) so much that he drove the poor guy away. I'm pretty sure 'god' killed his family and his flocks too. Nice going god.

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 04:45 PM
I can prove my existence. I can doubt that I exist, of course, but I can not doubt that I doubt. That is I doubt. And to doubt, I have to be. I doubt, therefore I am.

I win?

Actually, you could argue that you can't even prove that you exist or that you doubt.

One could argue that 'sentience' is no more than a quirky artifact of a central nervous system that has become so complex that it needed to have a 'homonculus' to process sensory data and multitask. In which case, emotions and decisions are simply the central nervous system weighing various options based on past data and experience etc.

Furthermore one can argue that there is no matter or time as we perceive it, since our 'consciousness' is just a 'homonculous' watching a big screen TV that is processing external information using very crude sensing equipment. Whatever we sense is just a crude illusion and a shadow of what is really out there based on what the neurons in our brain register the input as. Who knows what's really out there?

Halo
11-15-2006, 04:51 PM
Actually, you could argue that you can't even prove that you exist or that you doubt.

One could argue that 'sentience' is no more than a quirky artifact of a central nervous system that has become so complex that it needed to have a 'homonculus' to process sensory data and multitask. In which case, emotions and decisions are simply the central nervous system weighing various options based on past data and experience etc.

Furthermore one can argue that there is no matter or time as we perceive it, since our 'consciousness' is just a 'homonculous' watching a big screen TV that is processing external information using very crude sensing equipment. Whatever we sense is just a crude illusion and a shadow of what is really out there based on what the neurons in our brain register the input as. Who knows what's really out there?
If you doubt what I said, how can you doubt that you doubt? And even if you doubt doubting, you are still doubting!

Petr
11-15-2006, 04:53 PM
Dawkins' philosophical shallowness can be seen here:

http://www.idthefuture.com/2006/10/nagel_on_dawkins.html#more


... Moreover, Nagel continues, Dawkins's complaint about an unexplained causal terminus applies with equal force to his own position:

All explanations come to an end somewhere. The real opposition between Dawkins's physicalist naturalism and the God hypothesis is a disagreement over whether this end point is physical, extensional, and purposeless, or mental, intentional, and purposive. On either view, the ultimate explanation is not itself explained. The God hypothesis does not explain the existence of God, and naturalistic physicalism does not explain the laws of physics.
If it is a fundamental defect for any causal explanation to employ primary entities (i.e., causes that are themselves unexplained), then no ultimate explanation is possible. But that can't be what Dawkins intends. Right?


Petr

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 04:57 PM
If you doubt what I said, how can you doubt that you doubt? And even if you doubt doubting, you are still doubting!

I don't doubt it. :)

Stick to the Facts
11-15-2006, 04:59 PM
Dawkins' philosophical shallowness can be seen here:

http://www.idthefuture.com/2006/10/nagel_on_dawkins.html#more


... Moreover, Nagel continues, Dawkins's complaint about an unexplained causal terminus applies with equal force to his own position:


If it is a fundamental defect for any causal explanation to employ primary entities (i.e., causes that are themselves unexplained), then no ultimate explanation is possible. But that can't be what Dawkins intends. Right?

Petr

Once again you are assuming that all athiest/agnostics share some central dogma or system of beliefs. Once again, I'm saying that we do not.

And again, you are quoting one person as if he spoke for anyone else. He, nor anyone else, speaks for me on the subject.

I have no doubt that there are some atheists/agnostics who have no moral framework, just as there are people of all religions who have none.

Insidium
11-15-2006, 05:37 PM
Moral objectivism is more reasonable than relativism. Morality and ethics should be reasonably defensible, even if they are not derived purely from reason. Objective morality is the only ethical framework that can account for moral progress. Moral nihilism and relativism, while superficially appealing, are ultimately inconsistent and not very useful as they do not provide any basis for debating moral claims. Nihilism claims that all moral claims are wrong, relativism, that they are all right.

As I mentioned earlier, nobody actually derives their ethics from the Bible. What they do is take already-accepted ethical views and then cherry-pick Biblical quotes to support them.

No "ultimate" explanation is possible because any statements we make about nature are probabilistic, not certain. This is not problematic. As of yet unexplained does not equal unexplainable.

Helios Panoptes
11-15-2006, 05:48 PM
Objective morality is the only ethical framework that can account for moral progress.

That there is progress presupposes realism.

Moral nihilism and relativism, while superficially appealing, are ultimately inconsistent and not very useful as they do not provide any basis for debating moral claims. Nihilism claims that all moral claims are wrong, relativism, that they are all right.

What is the inconsistency?

Insidium
11-15-2006, 05:55 PM
Perhaps inconsistency is not the right word. However, both are fairly useless when one is faced with a moral dilemma.

Halo
11-15-2006, 06:53 PM
Moral objectivism is more reasonable than relativism. Morality and ethics should be reasonably defensible, even if they are not derived purely from reason. Objective morality is the only ethical framework that can account for moral progress. Moral nihilism and relativism, while superficially appealing, are ultimately inconsistent and not very useful as they do not provide any basis for debating moral claims. Nihilism claims that all moral claims are wrong, relativism, that they are all right.

As I mentioned earlier, nobody actually derives their ethics from the Bible. What they do is take already-accepted ethical views and then cherry-pick Biblical quotes to support them.

No "ultimate" explanation is possible because any statements we make about nature are probabilistic, not certain. This is not problematic. As of yet unexplained does not equal unexplainable.
Very nice post.
Here is a quote from my signature that I find very interesting(about morality) and makes perfect sense to me:

1. For every non-tautological belief, there is a counterbelief which could just as easily be true, and which, if true, would falsify the initial belief.

2. Therefore, only tautological beliefs are self evident.

3. Since no non-tautological belief is self evident, all beliefs which are not themselves tautological require justification of some kind before being accepted, for they could be false.

4. False beliefs justify false morality.

5. To follow a false morality is, by definition, evil.

6. Therefore, false beliefs lead to evil.

From this comes, it is only moral to found out what is good and evil. Which we are not really doing are we?

Macrobius
11-16-2006, 02:23 AM
I don't recall saying anything about evolution having a teleological purpose. Evolution is a blind natural process.


It think you are going to have to pick one:


This is a gross misunderstanding. Darwinism IS NOT a theory of blind chance. It's the opposite of chance. Darwinism is an explanation of improbable complex organisms. They evolved from primitive self replicating molecules through natural selection over billions of years. Each generation acts as sieve causing gene frequencies to change over time. Creationism is not a solution. It's nothing more than a sexed up "I dunno" with faith built in to prevent self-destruction.


http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16015&page=11

I assume your distinction would be the process is blind, but not random. This avoids teleology to a point, since one is positing a mechanism. That mechanism is not unlike the mathematical notion of an iterative mapping (which has a 'fixed point'). If you apply the same mapping to a set of points, there may be some points that map to 'themselves' after repeated iterations. These are the points of (stable, unstable) equilibrium.

As far as I can tell, Darwinism claims that with respect to generation, the apparent stability of species is like a fixed point in the mapping of survival (i.e., making it to the next stage of iteration). There is no *cause* for the fixity, only that it just is. But it is quite consistent to posit stability might exist 'without explanation' so to speak. This is not unlike the situation with regard to the stability of planetary orbits -- does one really need a notion that 'some end' guides the planet or keeps it in its course?

However, this line of reasoning can be carried further -- and was, by Parmenidies -- can one not just say that all phenomena 'just are'? Why bother to ask for explanations for *anything*? Once one starts down the road of saying things like 'stability just us' (the fittest just survive, and that can explain why survival correlates with our notion of well-designed, except when it doesn't and then our notion must be at fault). Well, this amounts to not so much an absence of teleology as a willful descoping of the purpose of intellectual pursuits.

I can choose not to seek a teleological explanation, and just put a big IT IS stamp on everything, but how satisfying and explanatory is that? The argument in favour of Darwinism has to be an argument from parsimony. It explains a lot, assuming little. That translates to a 'more powerful theory'.

However, claiming you've slain one deus ex machina (God did it!) becomes less credible when you substitute another (Reality just is, man. Things get eaten you know? What is, is.) Real explanatory power comes from seeing the Order and Reason in things, not just saving the Phenomena with a Get Out of Teleology Free card.

Change -- motion, metabolism, etc. -- has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Blinding oneself to the end is a cheap way out. The opposite of tripping and saying 'I meant to do that'. It is like swiping money from the till and saying 'I didn't mean to do that'.

Stick to the Facts
11-16-2006, 02:50 AM
Moral objectivism is more reasonable than relativism. Morality and ethics should be reasonably defensible, even if they are not derived purely from reason. Objective morality is the only ethical framework that can account for moral progress. Moral nihilism and relativism, while superficially appealing, are ultimately inconsistent and not very useful as they do not provide any basis for debating moral claims. Nihilism claims that all moral claims are wrong, relativism, that they are all right.

As I mentioned earlier, nobody actually derives their ethics from the Bible. What they do is take already-accepted ethical views and then cherry-pick Biblical quotes to support them.

No "ultimate" explanation is possible because any statements we make about nature are probabilistic, not certain. This is not problematic. As of yet unexplained does not equal unexplainable.

The thing is, I don't believe that moral objectivism means that there is only one optimal moral paradigm that is better than all others.

In other words:

If you think of a moral paradigm as the solution to an equation, where the equation accounts for such things as ability of civilization to preserve itself without self annihilation, ability to find a good balance between technological progress, preservation of natural resources, and maximizing the utility of citizens - there doesn't have to be just one solution.

I think of it more as a series of 'local maxima'. There are many different models that can all achieve the same goals, even though some of them may look incrediby alien to someone from another.

Then again, there are some models that are dismal failures that will either change toward something closer to a local maximum, or will be absorbed by another.