Jujitsu vs Judo vs Aikido

[Dr. No]

How do judo, jujitsu, and aikido relate to one another? How are they different?

[Vindex]

They come from the same base, but where developed in different directions. Jujitsu would probably be the closer to the original, Akijitsu I think it is spelled.

[Dr. No]

Location: In the middle of a big breasted, sex-sandwich.

How I envy you.

[Revolution_of_the_Mind]

How do judo, jujitsu, and aikido relate to one another? How are they different?

Judo and Aikido were developed from Jujutsu. They are related in that they all share a basic method of attack like throwing and joint-locking. In Judo, it is both a martial artform and a way of life (philosophy). The "Ju" comes from jujutsu ("gentle art"). And "do" means "way of life." So Judo means "the gentle way." Judo's primary focus is learning the art of throwing and groundwork. Aikido (mastered by Steven Segal) also comes Jujutsu. It's focus is the principle of energy and motion to redirect, neutralize and control attackers. Aikido, like Judo, has a "way of life" principle. But this is more of a spiritual component which is the basis of the martial art itself. Also, Aikido uses weapon techniques unlike Judo or Jujutsu. Finally, Jujutsu is basically an unarmed very technical and scientific art but as I mentioned earlier it is a "gentle art."

Now if you really wanna know which of the 3 is the best martial art to use for combat..it would have to be Jujutsu..more preferably Brazilian Jujutsu. I am into Brazilian jujutsu and practice intensively on a daily basis. Any martial artist will tell you that Brazilian jujutsu is the most complete martial art for combat and self-defense.

Jujitsu would probably be the closer to the original, Akijitsu I think it is spelled.

Correction: Aikijutsu derives from jujutsu (jiujitsu). ;)

[Keen]

Now if you really wanna know which of the 3 is the best martial art to use for combat..it would have to be Jujutsu..more preferably Brazilian Jujutsu. I am into Brazilian jujutsu and practice intensively on a daily basis. Any martial artist will tell you that Brazilian jujutsu is the most complete martial art for combat and self-defense.

Indeed, BJJ is definitely the most effective and practical of the 3. It might be the most effective martial art there is, considering police reports show that at least 90% of street fights end up on the ground. Anyone remember this guy? (pardon the shitty music):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2wQhRRNqSU

[Helios Panoptes]

I'm not very familiar with aikido, but as far as I am aware, it has no full contact sparring, which separates it from judo and Brazilian jiu jitsu (BJJ), but is similar to Japanese jiu jitsu (JJJ).

Judo is more throw-oriented than Brazilian jiu jitsu with less focus on ground work. Matches are decided primarily by takedowns from the stand up position and finishing with submissions is of secondary importance. In judo, competitors are stood up from the ground if there is a brief lull in the action which never happens in BJJ and many techniques that are legal in BJJ are forbidden (for example, judo permits no attacks on the legs). Many judokas have good submission skills and many do not. Further, a first degree black belt in judo (called shodan) is roughly equivalent to a seasoned blue belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu. That is, being black belt level in judo means you have attained a basic knowledge of the art, whereas being a black belt in BJJ means that you are an expert.

There is a great difference between JJJ and BJJ as well. First, BJJ includes a lot of sparring in training, whereas JJJ includes none. In JJJ, techniques are learned solely through the practicing of kata. Second, JJJ was originally intended for use on the battlefield, which gives it a different emphasis than BJJ which is intended to submit an unarmed opponent in a one-on-one fight. JJJ techniques avoid entanglement with an opponent so that a fighter can move quickly if necessary. BJJ techniques are used to gain the greatest amount of control over the opponent as possible without concern for what might happen if a third party enters the fray. Third, BJJ develops based on what works in competition. Every few years someone will come along with a new or unused position and tear up the competitive circuit with it, then others will start using it and it will become common (an example is Marcelo Garcia's x-guard). JJJ does not develop in this way. It is traditionalist. Changes to old moves and the addition of new ones are frowned upon.

[Sluggo892]

How do judo, jujitsu, and aikido relate to one another? How are they different?They are all silly Asian martial arts that if anybody ever tried to use in real life, they would get their asses kicked.

If you want to know how to protect yourself, learn to box and wrestle (Greco-Roman).

[Helios Panoptes]

They are all silly Asian martial arts that if anybody ever tried to use in real life, they would get their asses kicked.

Why do you say that? The best MMA fighter in the world suffered his first defeat in 10 years a week ago due to a triangle choke, a common submission technique. If it works on a highly trained, elite athlete, I'm confident it could be applied against some bum on the street.

If you want to know how to protect yourself, learn to box and wrestle (Greco-Roman).

Judo is basically wrestling with submissions and clothes, FYI. Folkstyle wrestling would be better than GR in any case because it teaches takedowns against the legs, such as double legs, ankle picks, and trips, which are not allowed in Greco. Why on earth would you want to restrict your repertoire to above the belt takedowns in a real fight, which has no rules against any technique?

Needless to say, I completely disagree with your criticism. Jiu jitsu and judo teach many useful, practical techniques that could easily be applied in a street fight. Aside from chokes and joint locks, they teach how to get an opponent to the ground, establish a dominant position, and control him once you're there.

[Keen]

They are all silly Asian martial arts that if anybody ever tried to use in real life, they would get their asses kicked.

If you want to know how to protect yourself, learn to box and wrestle (Greco-Roman).

This is all complete nonsense that jiu-jitsu practicioners have disproved for decades now. Jiu-jitsu is extremely practical and effective in any 1 on 1situation. Royce Gracie had no problem choking out champion wrestlers and strikers who were much bigger and stronger than him (Shamrock, Severn, Kimo, etc.).

I won't argue that striking isn't applicable nonetheless, but boxing? Any striker who doesn't at least know how to kick is just asking to get his ass beat.

[Helios Panoptes]

teh_n00b!!!111, do you practice Brazilian jiu jitsu? If so, how long have you been at it?

[Baron_Corvo]

Needless to say, I completely disagree with your criticism. Jiu jitsu and judo teach many useful, practical techniques that could easily be applied in a street fight. Aside from chokes and joint locks, they teach how to get an opponent to the ground, establish a dominant position, and control him once you're there.

Sure, and the top practitioners could use them successfully in a street situation. I think your average judoka would struggle though against a real life opponent, especially one with experience of street fighting.

In the street, unlike in the dojo, your opponent is really trying to hurt you and will have no mercy. He may also be high on drugs. You only get one chance to get it right, and the adrenaline will be flowing which will constrict your awareness of the possible choices of action.

[Sluggo892]

Why do you say that? The best MMA fighter in the world suffered his first defeat in 10 years a week ago due to a triangle choke, a common submission technique. If it works on a highly trained, elite athlete, I'm confident it could be applied against some bum on the street.

A choke hold is a standard move that has been around for centuries and is not specific to judo or any or the other Asian martial arts. While many of the individual moves in martial arts can be useful in a fight, the vast majority of it is a bunch of hokum that the American public eats up as. It is myth that little Asian guys have some special knowledge and can kick everyone's ass. Bruce Lee in particular and kung-fu movies in general gave rise to the myth of the Asian martial arts. Guys that fight in that style will generally end up losing. Most of the MMA guys are former wrestlers (high-school and/or college)

Judo is basically wrestling with submissions and clothes, FYI. Folkstyle wrestling would be better than GR in any case because it teaches takedowns against the legs, such as double legs, ankle picks, and trips, which are not allowed in Greco. Why on earth would you want to restrict your repertoire to above the belt takedowns in a real fight, which has no rules against any technique?

I wouldn't restrict my self-defense to above the belt takedowns. Nor would I be against all sorts of other moves (eye-gouging, head butting, kidney punching, etc.) that would be "illegal" in formal combat sports. That being said, I probably should have included freestyle wresting along with Greco-Roman.

I won't argue that striking isn't applicable nonetheless, but boxing? Any striker who doesn't at least know how to kick is just asking to get his ass beat.

In kick boxing (do they even have that anymore?) they used to deduct points if you didn't attempt enough kicks. The reason was because if there was no point deduction, fighters would almost never attempt kicks; because when you attempt to kick someone you lose your center of gravity and leave yourself vulnerable to counterattack.

[Helios Panoptes]

A choke hold is a standard move that has been around for centuries and is not specific to judo or any or the other Asian martial arts.

There are many different kinds of choke holds and I believe that some are specific to the Asian grappling tradition, whereas others are not. Regardless, it borders on crazy to deny that Brazilian jiu jitsu is the best art to learn how to submit opponents with joint locks and chokes.

While many of the individual moves in martial arts can be useful in a fight, the vast majority of it is a bunch of hokum that the American public eats up as. It is myth that little Asian guys have some special knowledge and can kick everyone's ass. Bruce Lee in particular and kung-fu movies in general gave rise to the myth of the Asian martial arts. Guys that fight in that style will generally end up losing.

I agree with you about traditional Asian martial arts like kung fu, but BJJ and judo aren't like these. There's nothing mystical about them.

Most of the MMA guys are former wrestlers (high-school and/or college)

A lot of them are, many are not. All MMA fighters practice wrestling because it is the best discipline for taking down shirtless opponents (many wrestling takedowns can be negated or at least made more difficult by simply grabbing your opponent's shirt or gi and stiff arming if he tries to shoot). However, they all have BJJ coaches, too (with the exception of a few who specialize in Sambo, which has roots in judo). All successful MMA fighters are purple belt level in BJJ and many are black belts. If you use your wrestling to take someone down and do not know how to defend submissions and sweeps, you will be quickly defeated.



I wouldn't restrict my self-defense to above the belt takedowns. Nor would I be against all sorts of other moves (eye-gouging, head butting, kidney punching, etc.) that would be "illegal" in formal combat sports. That being said, I probably should have included freestyle wresting along with Greco-Roman.

Folkstyle wrestling is better. Basically, it's like Greco, but you're not restricted to upper body throws. Judo is good as well because it teaches you how to use grips on clothing to take someone down and it adds submissions. It is definitely worse than wrestling for MMA, but in real life most people wear clothes.



In kick boxing (do they even have that anymore?) they used to deduct points if you didn't attempt enough kicks. The reason was because if there was no point deduction, fighters would almost never attempt kicks; because when you attempt to kick someone you lose your center of gravity and leave yourself vulnerable to counterattack.

This wasn't in reply to me, but I will respond anyway. Kicks are harder to use effectively than punches, but if a fighter masters them, they become a valuable tool. Additionally, kickboxing teaches fighters how to use knees in the clinch.

BTW, they do have kickboxing. There's this thing called K-1. It's pretty popular. The fighters in it use plenty of kicks and knees, though there's no rule forcing them to.

[Keen]

Yes, I practice under a former student of Luiz Palhares, who was a student of Rickson Gracie. I've only been practicing for about half a year now. I'm a 2 stripe white belt thus far, but I plan on training for the rest of my life so long as I am able. What about you, Helios?

[KingBedlam]

BJJ is Judo groundwork, or newaza. The idea that Bjj came from Japanese jujitsu is a myth, it actually came from Judo, and was highly modified by the Gracie family. Maeda, whom was an expert at Judo groundwork, was sent to Brazil by Kano Jigoro (Judo's founder), who was trying to spread the sport of Judo worldwide and eventually make it into an Olympic sport.

You can have a black belt is Judo and go train at a Bjj gym and do just fine. In fact, most gyms encourage it, because of the MMA craze. Honestly, I'd do Judo and crosstrain with some Bjj guys. You'll save tons of money.

I've yet to meet a person who could use Aikido effectively. It looks pretty, but I've never seen a pretty fight in my life.

[Helios Panoptes]

Yes, I practice under a former student of Luiz Palhares, who was a student of Rickson Gracie. I've only been practicing for about half a year now. I'm a 2 stripe white belt thus far, but I plan on training for the rest of my life so long as I am able. What about you, Helios?

I sent you a PM.

[Bronze Age Pervert]

This is all complete nonsense that jiu-jitsu practicioners have disproved for decades now. Jiu-jitsu is extremely practical and effective in any 1 on 1situation. Royce Gracie had no problem choking out champion wrestlers and strikers who were much bigger and stronger than him (Shamrock, Severn, Kimo, etc.).

I won't argue that striking isn't applicable nonetheless, but boxing? Any striker who doesn't at least know how to kick is just asking to get his ass beat.

Boxing is the only martial art you need in real life. You can knock someone out cold with one or two hits, and if they're not trained they're not going to be able to avoid your strikes.

Jiu jitsu is all but worthless against more than one opponent and even then it's worthless if you're both standing and he's a trained boxer.

Kicking doesn't do anything one way or another...a decent boxer will always be able to knock down a tae kwon do superstar in a few seconds. Kicking is just made to look cool on TV, etc., the only kind of useful kicking might be from muay thai, a low swipe or a knee if it gets very close-quarters, but that's not so important.

[Helios Panoptes]

Boxing is the only martial art you need in real life. You can knock someone out cold with one or two hits, and if they're not trained they're not going to be able to avoid your strikes.

Jiu jitsu is all but worthless against more than one opponent and even then it's worthless if you're both standing and he's a trained boxer.

If you're both standing, you can always try to execute a takedown. A wrestling shot wouldn't be expected in a regular fight and it would probably work. Additionally, most people don't have any idea how to properly defend, which makes it even more likely to succeed. You wouldn't need to be a NCAA champion to pull it off. You could also flop on your back and kick at your opponent's legs and groin if he comes close, which, while not very dignified, should at least force a stalemate and make him go away.

Kicking doesn't do anything one way or another...a decent boxer will always be able to knock down a tae kwon do superstar in a few seconds. Kicking is just made to look cool on TV, etc., the only kind of useful kicking might be from muay thai, a low swipe or a knee if it gets very close-quarters, but that's not so important.

Kicks have a longer range than punches. They're particularly effective if you have long legs. A front snap kick to the body can knock someone down if it's done correctly. Kicks are the main reason that Semmy Schilt wins the K-1 Grand Prix almost every time he enters.

[Keen]

Boxing is the only martial art you need in real life. You can knock someone out cold with one or two hits, and if they're not trained they're not going to be able to avoid your strikes.

Hollywood must have a lot to do they way you look at martial arts. Watch any of the early UFC's and you will find that:
1.) Boxers suck.
2.) Grapplers defeat strikers about 90% of the time.

Also, it is very difficult to land a solid standing hit on someone if they have even the slightest fighting experience and/or knowledge. However, it is very easy for anyone to turn a stand-up fight into a grapple, which often happens even between trained boxers.
Most fights end up on the ground. Boxers are not trained for groundfighting.
Most fights involve some form of clinching/grappling. Boxers are not trained for this either. You aren't gonna have a referee pull you apart and resume the fight in a real life situation.

[/QUOTE]Jiu jitsu is all but worthless against more than one opponent and even then it's worthless if you're both standing and he's a trained boxer.[/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCsyGduUvzE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p51UveBJSmc

Most fights don't stay standing, trained or not. As a matter of fact, self-defense jiu-jitsu is all about turning a stand-up fight into a grappling match, which isn't hard to do. Think about how easy it is for a boxer to land a clinch.

[/QUOTE]Kicking doesn't do anything one way or another...a decent boxer will always be able to knock down a tae kwon do superstar in a few seconds. Kicking is just made to look cool on TV, etc., the only kind of useful kicking might be from muay thai, a low swipe or a knee if it gets very close-quarters, but that's not so important.[/QUOTE]

Kicking is useful for those who have mastered it. Watch some K1 fights and you will see fighters very effectively kicking their opponents.


(yes I know, I need to figure out the quotation system)

[Bronze Age Pervert]

Hollywood must have a lot to do they way you look at martial arts. Watch any of the early UFC's and you will find that:
1.) Boxers suck.
2.) Grapplers defeat strikers about 90% of the time.

Also, it is very difficult to land a solid standing hit on someone if they have even the slightest fighting experience and/or knowledge. However, it is very easy for anyone to turn a stand-up fight into a grapple, which often happens even between trained boxers.
Most fights end up on the ground. Boxers are not trained for groundfighting.
Most fights involve some form of clinching/grappling. Boxers are not trained for this either. You aren't gonna have a referee pull you apart and resume the fight in a real life situation.

Jiu jitsu is all but worthless against more than one opponent and even then it's worthless if you're both standing and he's a trained boxer.[/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCsyGduUvzE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p51UveBJSmc

Most fights don't stay standing, trained or not. As a matter of fact, self-defense jiu-jitsu is all about turning a stand-up fight into a grappling match, which isn't hard to do. Think about how easy it is for a boxer to land a clinch.

[/QUOTE]Kicking doesn't do anything one way or another...a decent boxer will always be able to knock down a tae kwon do superstar in a few seconds. Kicking is just made to look cool on TV, etc., the only kind of useful kicking might be from muay thai, a low swipe or a knee if it gets very close-quarters, but that's not so important.[/QUOTE]

Kicking is useful for those who have mastered it. Watch some K1 fights and you will see fighters very effectively kicking their opponents.


(yes I know, I need to figure out the quotation system)[/QUOTE]


Actually it's Hollywood that has all the fancy moves/martial arts, in actual fights it goes down to who can punch harder and who can take it without being affected much by it. MMA fights are not the same as real-world fights, MMA has rules....oh and fights in the real world go down to the ground when it's two bozos who don't know how to box...when one of them does, only one goes to the ground :P

[Keen]

Actually it's Hollywood that has all the fancy moves/martial arts, in actual fights it goes down to who can punch harder and who can take it without being affected much by it.

Jiu-Jitsu is anything but fancy, and that's one reason it is so practical. It doesn't matter how hard you can punch when someone has you mounted, is tearing your shoulder out of its socket, is choking you out, etc.

MMA fights are not the same as real-world fights, MMA has rules

The only rules for the early UFCs: No biting, and no eye gouging. Everything else was legal. It is very easy to take a fight to the ground regardless of whether or not one can bite or eye gouge.

oh and fights in the real world go down to the ground when it's two bozos who don't know how to box...when one of them does, only one goes to the ground :P

So long as at least 1 of those bozos knows how to grapple, you can bet it's going to the ground.

[Keen]

how do you do multiple quotes?

[banjo_billy]

How do judo, jujitsu, and aikido relate to one another? How are they different?

Before discussing the empty handed martial arts, it must be understood that they were always to be used in conjuction with weapons. Unlike the movies, no martial artist would go to battle with only empty hands.

That being said, Judo and aikido are martial sports that were derived from martial arts as a Japanese ploy for misleading Westerners. For the sake of the increased martial ability of Japan and the Japanese warriors, these arts were purposely made less effective than their parent arts of jiujitsu and aikijutsu because they were developed to be taught to non-Japanese foreigners.

The methods of combat developed by the Japanese included jujitsu and taijutsu among many other styles. They were not sports. It's designation as a "jitsu" art says this. Its goal was the killing and maiming of the opponent or his capture. And it has a large variety of secret methods associated with each school.

However, once Commador Perry forced open Japan in the 1850s, the Japanese were required by treaty to open all doors to the Westerners. This included the various dojos. But in order to hide the deadly methods of jiujitsu from Westerners, the Japanese developed judo under the alleged desire to equal Westerners in "sports". So, using the lesser throwing techniques and allowing a few of the basic submission chokes, the various jiujitsu schools taught judo to any Westerners who wanted to learn. But once the Western barbarians had worked up a sweat and gone home happy in their "knowledge" of judo, the doors were closed and the Japanese students practiced the more deadly skills of jiujitsu.

The same deception was used after WWII. Morehi Ueshiba had been teaching aikijutsu to the Japanese police before and during the War. But after Japan was defeated, he began teaching the methods of aikido to the Western students. This was promoted as a "great martial art", but its very name as a "-do" art means that it is more of a sport and not a "jitsu" martial art. Using the basic and general techniques of the deadly aikijutsu, the style is really a watered down form of aikijutsu but with all of the teeth and claws removed. This way, the foreign students were led down a road of peace and flowers and sunshine while the Japanese students learned how to kill their foreign classmates.

In regard to Brasilian Jiujitsu, this is once again a style of sport that is not practical for actual combat. In a one-on-one situation in the sporting ring, it has merit but when fighting multiple opponents, it suffers from the same defects of all grappling arts. And that is, not enough knock down power which is needed in the streets where grappling is a losing strategy among mulitple opponents.

As far as differences between the three. Judo is the crudest and most elementary of the three, using leverage and wrestling for the sake of throwing the opponent. It is the most sport-like of the three. Although its variety of chokes will put you out like a light bulb it tends to suffer from the disadvantage of use of muscle power in its techniques.

Jiujitsu is more advanced because nastier and more destructive techniques are taught and allowed, although a lot of the modern schools tend to also turn it into a sporting like event so similar to judo as to lose its jitsu flavor.

Aikido has the advanced methods of using ki, or the spiritual energy of the body, in its techniques. So, throws are accomplished with feather light touches and sometimes throws can be accomplished without touching the opponent at all. However, the training methods are lacking in realism simply because it was designed as a martial sport where everyone in the dojo can float around pretending to be buddhas while helping each other to fall down. Its methods are not useful for the streets without additional training in other martial arts. As a martial art is it lacking in depth, unlike its father art of aikijutsu which comes complete with all of its teeth and claws intact.

[Constantine]

Bruce Lee in particular and kung-fu movies in general gave rise to the myth of the Asian martial arts. Guys that fight in that style will generally end up losing. Most of the MMA guys are former wrestlers (high-school and/or college)

I have been studying Eagle Claw Kung Fu for about 2 years now. One thing that jumped out at me immediately was the the Kung fu we practice is nothing like what you see in Bruce Lee Movies. While I admire Bruce Lee I see that a lot of what he did in movies was purely theater. Jackie Chan is worse. He practices (from what I gather) Wushu which is essentially dancing. True Kung fu should be training for a warrior in the ancient world in hand to hand combat. One should learn the pressure points and how to halt the Chi of the opponent to defeat them. Here are the Principals of Eagle Claw Kung Fu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSS169xznSA


I wouldn't restrict my self-defense to above the belt takedowns. Nor would I be against all sorts of other moves (eye-gouging, head butting, kidney punching, etc.) that would be "illegal" in formal combat sports. That being said, I probably should have included freestyle wresting along with Greco-Roman.

I agree with all of that. Check out this link (http://www.targetfocustraining.com/). These guys are the real deal.

In kick boxing (do they even have that anymore?) they used to deduct points if you didn't attempt enough kicks. The reason was because if there was no point deduction, fighters would almost never attempt kicks; because when you attempt to kick someone you lose your center of gravity and leave yourself vulnerable to counterattack.

Kicks are tricky. My kung fu system is only about 30% kicking and 70% punching/locking/takedowns. Kicks should be used to break joints and attack pressure points. If I were to have a fight with a guy on the street I would only use roundhouse kicks to the knees and possibly thrust kicks to the abdomen. Headkicks are not useful for the most part.

[Flint Steel]

Negros excell at running because they have narrower and a few other traits. Every running record from 100m to a mile is held by a black. The last time a white held the 100m record was in the sixties.

Whites however are preeminent in sports that require upper body strength - rowing, shotput, javalin and we hold the top 50 throws in shot for example.

Our martial arts - boxing and wresTling, capitalise our upper body strength. Chinks are small and nippy so they utilised kicks to compete against the greater physical power of russians for example.

So choose a martial art which is based on power and upper body strength if you a WASP like me.

Suggestions:
Kickboxing was made for westeners
Karate
Judo

[banjo_billy]

Whites however are preeminent in sports that require upper body strength - rowing, shotput, javalin and we hold the top 50 throws in shot for example.

Our martial arts - boxing and wresTling, capitalise our upper body strength. Chinks are small and nippy so they utilised kicks to compete against the greater physical power of russians for example.

So choose a martial art which is based on power and upper body strength if you a WASP like me.

While choosing an art that makes the most of your own physic is a good idea, at the same time understand that martial arts are mainly built upon technique. Western wrestling is an ingenious development with methods that are both ancient and continuously developing. While it is a great workout and builds and requires strength, it is the techniques, themselves, that make it the superb martial art that it is. Most people look upon wrestling as a sport because of the rules of the several styles. But the actual martial-killing-maiming art of wrestling is found in what is called "professional wrestling." Those techniques are supremely deadly but they can only be demonstrated to the public through the showmanship and fakery of the professional wrestling genre. So, many people think that professional wrestling is "fake". But in fact, the real martial art side of Western wrestling is demonstrated in professional wrestling. It is a deadly and brutal art that cannot be practiced except as a bunch of big beefy guys pretending to kill each other.

So, while one's physic is important to optimize your skills, the techniques work for anybody. And anybody who wants an all-around great workout, wrestling is hard to beat.

[Helios Panoptes]

While choosing an art that makes the most of your own physic is a good idea, at the same time understand that martial arts are mainly built upon technique. Western wrestling is an ingenious development with methods that are both ancient and continuously developing. While it is a great workout and builds and requires strength, it is the techniques, themselves, that make it the superb martial art that it is. Most people look upon wrestling as a sport because of the rules of the several styles. But the actual martial-killing-maiming art of wrestling is found in what is called "professional wrestling." Those techniques are supremely deadly but they can only be demonstrated to the public through the showmanship and fakery of the professional wrestling genre. So, many people think that professional wrestling is "fake". But in fact, the real martial art side of Western wrestling is demonstrated in professional wrestling. It is a deadly and brutal art that cannot be practiced except as a bunch of big beefy guys pretending to kill each other.

So, while one's physic is important to optimize your skills, the techniques work for anybody. And anybody who wants an all-around great workout, wrestling is hard to beat.


The flying headbutt off the top turnbuckle is "supremely deadly." Good to know.

[Helios Panoptes]

I agree with all of that. Check out this link (http://www.targetfocustraining.com/). These guys are the real deal.



It seems absurd.

From the part about training: "In just 2 days you’ll master the basics of this amazing program that anyone can learn… regardless of size, speed, athletic skills or prior training."

If you can master it in 2 days, there's not much to it. Anyone who thinks he can learn to defend himself in that amount of time is nuts.

More: "Online (Distance) Training

[......]

Six, 3-month training modules sequentially guide you to complete mastery of the TFT system (even trainer certification, if you chose)"

You can become a certified trainer by watching video clips. No self-respecting martial artist would allow such a travesty.

From the page about classes: "While the self defense Principles we follow never change, we constantly strive to improve the instructional format. And it’s lead to some dramatic accelerations in your learning of this material. Our new high-density “assembly” methodology recently implemented helps you master and retain this material 200% to 400% faster!"

I wonder how they calculated that.

The price is exorbitant. For "less than 18 hours" they want $1000, whereas a high quality martial arts club will let you train a nearly unlimited amount of time for $200 per month.

Lastly, you get pop ups trying to sell you shit every 10 mins while you're browsing. It's almost as if they tried to seem like scammers.

[banjo_billy]

The flying headbutt off the top turnbuckle is "supremely deadly." Good to know.

You are getting entangled in the showmanship of professional wrestling. There is no need to mock the stagecraft in order to disparage the real techniques. With your skills, you should be able to see the techniques for what they are versus the stagecraft that sells tickets. The techniques of professional wrestling are illegal in other kinds of wrestling simply because they are so dangerous. Without the pre-arranged showmanship and cooperation between the wrestlers, these methods would lead to instant dismemberment and death.

Western wrestling is a great sport, but it was originally intended for the battle field and it is today only able to demonstrate its martial techniques through the professional wrestling circuit or through Sambo clubs.

[Locksley Hall]

MMA has been rapidly expanding in the U.S. as of late, but it's still difficult to find good gym's I've found. Just a drive down RT. 19 where I live, and I can point out 3 C.S. Kim Karate schools within 4 miles, whereas the closest no-gi grappling club is a 20 minute drive from my house.

In a situation like that, I feel anyone would be best served by learning freestyle wrestling as a foundation before any further training. You will develop a very solid base, learn singles/doubles/sit outs/switches, how to sprawl, etc. The conditioning that goes with any wrestling program is usually the best in any school district's sports team or club. The most important thing though, is that it will teach you how to grapple on the ground, where the majority of fights end up.

Chokes and other "dangerous moves" are for the most part illegal in freestyle wrestling, but learning those can all come later. The important thing is to learn the basics first and develop a solid base. It's no coincidence that a large segment of the current MMA population are former wrestlers.

Also, all styles have weaknesses (even the heavily marketed and hyped BJJ). You can't go into a fight and be content to pull guard all the time. The importance should always be on getting back to your feet, or somehow attaining the dominant position while on the ground.

In regard to Brasilian Jiujitsu, this is once again a style of sport that is not practical for actual combat. In a one-on-one situation in the sporting ring, it has merit but when fighting multiple opponents, it suffers from the same defects of all grappling arts. And that is, not enough knock down power which is needed in the streets where grappling is a losing strategy among mulitple opponents.

I agree with this in that it's pointless to take down someone and try to crank on an arm or tighten a choke while other guys are stomping on your head.

If you are ever accosted by multiple people, you should always:

1. Look for an escape

or

2. Look for a weapon, anything near you. I don't care if its a tree branch laying on the side of the road. Nothing guarantees "knock down power" like a weapon other than your body.

There really are no styles that can handle multiple foes (that includes all the Krav Maga and other styles that people claim is the answer). Just stay on your feet and keep your distance so they don't take you down.

[banjo_billy]

In a situation like that, I feel anyone would be best served by learning freestyle wrestling as a foundation before any further training. You will develop a very solid base, learn singles/doubles/sit outs/switches, how to sprawl, etc. The conditioning that goes with any wrestling program is usually the best in any school district's sports team or club. The most important thing though, is that it will teach you how to grapple on the ground, where the majority of fights end up.

Chokes and other "dangerous moves" are for the most part illegal in freestyle wrestling, but learning those can all come later. The important thing is to learn the basics first and develop a solid base. It's no coincidence that a large segment of the current MMA population are former wrestlers.

Also, all styles have weaknesses (even the heavily marketed and hyped BJJ). You can't go into a fight and be content to pull guard all the time. The importance should always be on getting back to your feet, or somehow attaining the dominant position while on the ground.

I agree with this in that it's pointless to take down someone and try to crank on an arm or tighten a choke while other guys are stomping on your head.

If you are ever accosted by multiple people, you should always:

1. Look for an escape

or

2. Look for a weapon, anything near you. I don't care if its a tree branch laying on the side of the road. Nothing guarantees "knock down power" like a weapon other than your body.

There really are no styles that can handle multiple foes (that includes all the Krav Maga and other styles that people claim is the answer). Just stay on your feet and keep your distance so they don't take you down.

Besides as a personal study, wrestling is a great way to train children in martial skills. You know that most fights go to the ground, so of course learning grappling skills will give you a great advantage. So, judo and wrestling is great for kids as a first step in martial skills. But in the streets, going to the ground is a bad idea unless it is your opponent who is taking the fall. So, throwing skills, where the opponent hits the ground with his face and you stay on your feet, come in very handy.

I was raised in California where fighting Mexicans was a part of my childhood, so I always practice martial arts with the idea in mind of multiple opponents. And now with the State being filled up with Chinese, too, that skill is even more important since the chinks will never fight you one-on-one if they can get 20 of their buddies to help kick your ass. Armed with a good supply of clubs, knives and meat cleavers, you will never get a "fair fight" from a Chinaman.

[Helios Panoptes]

You are getting entangled in the showmanship of professional wrestling. There is no need to mock the stagecraft in order to disparage the real techniques. With your skills, you should be able to see the techniques for what they are versus the stagecraft that sells tickets. The techniques of professional wrestling are illegal in other kinds of wrestling simply because they are so dangerous. Without the pre-arranged showmanship and cooperation between the wrestlers, these methods would lead to instant dismemberment and death.

Western wrestling is a great sport, but it was originally intended for the battle field and it is today only able to demonstrate its martial techniques through the professional wrestling circuit or through Sambo clubs.

Can you be more specific about the real techniques in pro wrestling? I've seen my fair share of pro wrestling matches and it seems to be almost all stagecraft with minimal or no use of effective techniques. When they do submissions, they're not done correctly or they wouldn't work at all.

Modern pro wrestling developed from catch wrestling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_wrestling), which was real. Catch is still practiced, but it's rare compared to many other martial arts. Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett are two famous pro fighters who come from a catch background.

[Helios Panoptes]

Also, all styles have weaknesses (even the heavily marketed and hyped BJJ). You can't go into a fight and be content to pull guard all the time. The importance should always be on getting back to your feet, or somehow attaining the dominant position while on the ground.

Pulling guard is o.k. if you are good at it because the average person doesn't know how to defend against attacks, especially when trying to throw punches. Guard is viewed as a fairly neutral position, but it can be dominant if you are better than your opponent. Of course, a dominant position is best of all, but you can get to that from guard.

[banjo_billy]

Can you be more specific about the real techniques in pro wrestling? I've seen my fair share of pro wrestling matches and it seems to be almost all stagecraft with minimal or no use of effective techniques. When they do submissions, they're not done correctly or they wouldn't work at all.

Modern pro wrestling developed from catch wrestling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_wrestling), which was real. Catch is still practiced, but it's rare compared to many other martial arts. Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett are two famous pro fighters who come from a catch background.

It isn't a competition. They aren't in the professional wrestling ring other than to make a buck in show business. They don't have to be scientifically accurate in their moves since it's all pre-arranged stage-craft. But if you've seen pro wrestling then perhaps you were put off by the stagecraft and didn't notice the actual techniques. They are there to showcase nasty techniques in a safe and entertaining manner.

[Helios Panoptes]

It isn't a competition. They aren't in the professional wrestling ring other than to make a buck in show business. They don't have to be scientifically accurate in their moves since it's all pre-arranged stage-craft. But if you've seen pro wrestling then perhaps you were put off by the stagecraft and didn't notice the actual techniques. They are there to showcase nasty techniques in a safe and entertaining manner.

What are these techniques? Can you give a few examples?

[banjo_billy]

What are these techniques? Can you give a few examples?

You again raise the subject. So, is this a sort of challenge? If so, I won't take the bait.

I am not interested in discussing specific techniques or debating about them. I have been over and over that road before on martial arts forums. It's pretty much a waste of time leading to pointless arguments. This is partly due to the huge amount of time that it takes to describe a technique when one does not know the actual name of a technique, followed by more huge amounts of time wasted in arguing about one method versus another. Lots of typing for little progress there. Sorry, I don't have time or the interest in debating at length on this subject. I can see useful techniques even if I don't know the names for them. So, I can't be of help to you there.

I was making some generalized statements on this thread about the general subject concerning differences in the throwing arts. Take my comments as you will and for what they are worth. I have been practicing a variety of martial arts for over 40 years and have some understanding of the subject.

[Helios Panoptes]

You again raise the subject. So, is this a sort of challenge? If so, I won't take the bait.

I am not interested in discussing specific techniques or debating about them. I have been over and over that road before on martial arts forums. It's pretty much a waste of time leading to pointless arguments. This is partly due to the huge amount of time that it takes to describe a technique when one does not know the actual name of a technique, followed by more huge amounts of time wasted in arguing about one method versus another. Lots of typing for little progress there. Sorry, I don't have time or the interest in debating at length on this subject. I can see useful techniques even if I don't know the names for them. So, I can't be of help to you there.

I was making some generalized statements on this thread about the general subject concerning differences in the throwing arts. Take my comments as you will and for what they are worth. I have been practicing a variety of martial arts for over 40 years and have some understanding of the subject.

OK...no need to be defensive. I was merely curious.

[Keen]

I hear the Stonecold Stunner is pretty effective in a street fight.

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