Jewish holocaust story:True or False

[Burrhus]

For voting purposes, this is the basic holocaust story: Members of the German government between 1939-1945 planned, organized, intended and attempted to kill every jew in territory under their control; the number of jews killed was between 4 and 6 million; the majority of jews who were killed died in gas chambers employing Zyklon-B gas.

[Globus]

For voting purposes, this is the basic holocaust story: Members of the German government between 1939-1945 planned, organized, intended and attempted to kill every jew in territory under their control; the number of jews killed was between 4 and 6 million; the majority of jews who were killed died in gas chambers employing Zyklon-B gas.

This is not what established history has shown.

But I guess we shouldn't expect more from someone who thinks history can be established by a poll!

[Der Sozialist]

You should make the poll a bit more nuanced—that is, have some more choices.

For example, I believe that ~6 million Jews died and that many were executed however I do not believe that Germany wanted to exterminate every single Jew in their control.

[Captain Marinesko]

It's SOP for conspiracy theorists to believe in the validity of polls, totally ignoring the argument ad populum fallacy.

[Burrhus]

It's SOP for conspiracy theorists to believe in the validity of polls, totally ignoring the argument ad populum fallacy.

There is no implication in my post that the argument will be settled by this vote. Accusing me of employing an ad populum argument is a tawdry rhetorical device questioning my intellectual integrity. Not appreciated.

I am merely trying to get a sense of the Phora on this issue.

[Globus]

There is no implication in my post that the argument will be settled by this vote. Accusing me of employing an ad populum argument is a tawdry rhetorical device questioning my intellectual integrity. Not appreciated.

I am merely trying to get a sense of the Phora on this issue.

The issue, or your historically incorrect statement of it?

[Jimbo Gomez]

Added a third option, which will accomodate many members here.

[Burrhus]

Der Sozialist: You should make the poll a bit more nuanced—that is, have some more choices.

I considered that option but chose not to as the nuances are of such great variation that the poll would have become unwieldy. The basic story-intention, millions killed, gas chambers--seemed to me the best way to divide the issue.

DS: For example, I believe that ~6 million Jews died and that many were executed however I do not believe that Germany wanted to exterminate every single Jew in their control.

If, as you assert, the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, what criteria did they employ in distinguishing between those whom they did and did not intend to kill? What evidence is there that they were making some distinction between these two classes of jews?

[maxsnafu]

How could anyone know the truth of the holocaust party line when
the Chosen people suppress any serious investigation of it?

[Burrhus]

The issue, or your historically incorrect statement of it?

Is it your position that the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, 4-6 million were not killed and that gas chambers were not used? If my statement of the issue is incorrect in your opinion, then your answer to the question would be, yes.

[guy]

If, as you assert, the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, what criteria did they employ in distinguishing between those whom they did and did not intend to kill? What evidence is there that they were making some distinction between these two classes of jews?
Burrhus, I think you are over analyzing what Der Sozialist said. It seems like he was simply saying that the Germans wanted to kill the jewish population, but not every single jewish person. In other words, they would have been happy with 99% (or even less) of the jewish population being dead. The two classes would therefore be: (1) dead jews (90-99%), and (2) live jews (1-10%). Or something to that effect.

[Der Sozialist]

If, as you assert, the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, what criteria did they employ in distinguishing between those whom they did and did not intend to kill? What evidence is there that they were making some distinction between these two classes of jews?

For example, some Jews were never sent to the camps. This would be one example. A better example would be the ethnicity of the Jew—I believe that Germany would have executed just about every Polish Jew but might not have for ever German Jew-- as an example.

[Globus]

Is it your position that the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, 4-6 million were not killed and that gas chambers were not used? If my statement of the issue is incorrect in your opinion, then your answer to the question would be, yes.

I wouldn't bother to answer such a silly question. That this place is crawling with deniers of proven history is hardly a surprise.

[Trojan]

It is not asserted that a majority died in gas chambers. The gas chambers were a method of murder, not the exclusive or even most frequently used method.

[Burrhus]

Originally Posted by Burrhus
Is it your position that the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, 4-6 million were not killed and that gas chambers were not used? If my statement of the issue is incorrect in your opinion, then your answer to the question would be, yes.

I wouldn't bother to answer such a silly question. That this place is crawling with deniers of proven history is hardly a surprise.

Typical Globus evasion.

However, to be more accurate I should have used or instead of and in the question. Which of the three parts of my statement is incorrect? The Germans did not intend to kill every jew (genocide) OR 4-6 million were not killed OR gas chambers were not employed. You may now choose any combination of the three with which you agree. Otherwise you will have to agree that my statement of the issue is not incorrect.

[Basil Fawlty]

It is not asserted that a majority died in gas chambers. The gas chambers were a method of murder, not the exclusive or even most frequently used method.He never said that it was the exclusive method but the gas chamber is emblematic or iconic of The Holocaust. Its the abiding "trademark" motif of The Holocaust.
Are you suggesting that less than 50% (3 million or less) were done to death by gassing?

[Globus]

Typical Globus evasion.

It doesn't evade anything.

And your poll is nothing but a distraction from the pathetic drubbing Holocaust denial has taken in this sub-forum.

[Burrhus]

Burrhus, I think you are over analyzing what Der Sozialist said. It seems like he was simply saying that the Germans wanted to kill the jewish population, but not every single jewish person. In other words, they would have been happy with 99% (or even less) of the jewish population being dead. The two classes would therefore be: (1) dead jews (90-99%), and (2) live jews (1-10%). Or something to that effect.

The issue here is "plan, organize, intend and attempt". That the (alleged) attempt failed is not relevant. As I read what you you have written above, you believe that it is DS's position that the Germans did intend to kill every jew. Is that also your position?

The classes refered to in my post were those whom the Germans (allegedly) intended to kill not those whom they (allegedly) succeeded in killing.

[Burrhus]

For example, some Jews were never sent to the camps. This would be one example. A better example would be the ethnicity of the Jew—I believe that Germany would have executed just about every Polish Jew but might not have for ever German Jew-- as an example.

You seem to be saying that while the Germans killed approximately 6 million jews, it was not their intention to kill all of the jews. Is that correct? If so, then I ask again, what criteria did they have for distinguishing the two classes of jews (those they intended to kill and those they did not intend to kill) and what evidence is there for believing that they had such criteria?

An after the fact determination of the criteria based on which jews were in fact (allegedly) killed does not demonstrate prior intention.

[Burrhus]

Originally Posted by Trojan
It is not asserted that a majority died in gas chambers. The gas chambers were a method of murder, not the exclusive or even most frequently used method.

He never said that it was the exclusive method but the gas chamber is emblematic or iconic of The Holocaust. Its the abiding "trademark" motif of The Holocaust.
Are you suggesting that less than 50% (3 million or less) were done to death by gassing?

I agree with Basil's comment. The basic holocaust story offered by its believers does give precedence to gas chambers as the dominant means employed in killing jews. My poll, in part, asks people if they believe that to be true or false.

The fine nuance as to whether gas chambers accounted for 49% or 51% of the (alleged) killings is not relevant to the story as it is believed.

[Volksverhetzer]

For example, some Jews were never sent to the camps. This would be one example. A better example would be the ethnicity of the Jew—I believe that Germany would have executed just about every Polish Jew but might not have for ever German Jew-- as an example.

Even 25% Jews where allowed into the NSDAP, and should destroy the jewish gene by mixing with Aryans.

I am wondering you believe in the magicall number of 6 million, but you also believe in gas chambers? Or not?

I myself opted False, the Jews where put in camps as a response to there boycott against Germany and German goods. The plan was to send them elsewhere, not to destroy them!

I will seize thise change to show you some proof, let the discussion begin!

To begin there is not 1 document or 1 proof on paper that shows anything of a mass slaughter of such big scale.

On the 'Wansee conference' where they say the plan of the 'holocaust' was born, there where papers of what was discussed that night, nowhere on these papers is one word that shows that there should be a mass execution of jews being planned, the papers do show that there was talked about jewish immigration to the east, also there where no 'top nazi's' present at this meeting, highest in rank was Heydrich, so if the plan for the Holocaust would be born, you would expect Hitler or higher officials to be at such a meeting..


The 6 million dead jews have officially being brought back to 4 million and at end just 1,5 million! While these are the officials numbers, still people keep on to the 6 million, what just shows how deep a lie can go!

There is no proof for so called Gas chambers, no picture's, no building plans, and no other documents! On paper it shows that the gas chamber in Auschwitz was really a part of the cremmatory! When going on the Auswitzch tour one can ask the tour leader if the chamber is real, and he will say; no the russians re-build it so that they could show better how awfull it must have been, says enough for me...

In that same so called gas chamber, and in the birkenau one, tests have taken place, during these tests there is not a single spark of prussian blue being found!

To be continued......

[Stick to the Facts]

I object to the term "every" since clearly not every Jew was targeted - in fact there was one high-ranking nazi (under Goering I believe, don't remember the name) who was well known to be Jewish and for whom Goering vouched for.

I also don't know for sure whether MOST of them died in Zyklon-B gas chambers because many died in exhaust-fume gas chambers and by other means.

I also don't know what the plans were as of 1939.

I also don't believe they had quite gotten around attempting to round up all of the jews in every inch of territory they controlled.

I am assuming that the OP didn't intended to phrase the question so narrowly as to be impossible - such a poll would be entirely meaningless.

I don't think theres a single person who would answer 'true' to the question under a literal interpretation.

Since I assume that people don't waste their time advancing meaningless questions for polling, I have construed the question with the above qualifications.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

A better example would be the ethnicity of the Jew—I believe that Germany would have executed just about every Polish Jew but might not have for ever German Jew-- as an example.
There really isn't much of a difference. Most are ashkenazis from an ethnic standpoint.

[Kolchab]

[…] the gas chamber is emblematic or iconic of The Holocaust. Its the abiding "trademark" motif of The Holocaust.
Questioning the existence of homicidal gas chambers, but still admitting the systematic killing of 6 million Jews still makes one a “Holocaust denier” in the eyes of the true believers.

At least so I was told by a believer.

Kolchab

[Basil Fawlty]

Questioning the existence of homicidal gas chambers, but still admitting the systematic killing of 6 million Jews still makes one a “Holocaust denier” in the eyes of the true believers.

At least so I was told by a believer.

KolchabOne certainly gets that impression. You have to accept the whole story (whatever it happens to be at the time) or else you are a heretic deserving of vilification, persecution, and ultimately, prosecution. We see lots of the first here, and if it were possible, the second and third no doubt.

[VAMPIR]

That was true, I guess (what history teaches us), but I couldn't possibly care less.

[Trojan]

He never said that it was the exclusive method but the gas chamber is emblematic or iconic of The Holocaust. Its the abiding "trademark" motif of The Holocaust.


"... the majority of jews who were killed died in gas chambers employing Zyklon-B gas."


Are you suggesting that less than 50% (3 million or less) were done to death by gassing?

Yes

[Basil Fawlty]

"... the majority of jews who were killed died in gas chambers employing Zyklon-B gas."



YesBy gassing I mean Zyklon B and CO. Do you maintain that less than 50% of the 6 million were killed by gassing?

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

Whatever inaccurasies the story may have, its certainly more accurate than George Lincoln Rockwell's story.

[Der Sozialist]

An after the fact determination of the criteria based on which jews were in fact (allegedly) killed does not demonstrate prior intention.

Why were some Jews not sent to the camps, Burrhus? I am not aware of all the criterion but certain Jewish admixture was allowed and Jews that served in WW1 were spared.

So, whatever criterion was used to separate the Jews who were sent to the camps and the ones that weren’t is what I am referencing.

[guy]

The issue here is "plan, organize, intend and attempt". That the (alleged) attempt failed is not relevant. As I read what you you have written above, you believe that it is DS's position that the Germans did intend to kill every jew.
No, not necessarily every jew. Their plan might have been to kill most of Europe's jews.

Is that also your position?
I don't presume to be an expert, but in my layman opinion Hitler wanted to and succeeded in murdering millions of jews.

The classes refered to in my post were those whom the Germans (allegedly) intended to kill not those whom they (allegedly) succeeded in killing.
Yes, I understand that, and like I said, they may have intended to kill most jews, but not 100% of them. That doesn't mean that there had to be special classes. "Most" might simply mean the ones that could be easily killed.

[Basil Fawlty]

No, not necessarily every jew. Their plan might have been to kill most of Europe's jews.Careful, guy, you don't want to be branded as a holocaust denier do you?
Despite the the fact that no one has ever seen an order or an extermination plan it is a Proven Historical Truth that they did have a plan and that there was an order. You are implying that there is some doubt about this therefore the Holoenforcers will have to call around to administer some remedial education. :bbbat:

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

The holocaust story has to be at least mostly accurate. It has the main idea. If its wrong, its only wrong on details.

However, I believe there is no reason to punish people for studying the issue.

[Basil Fawlty]

The holocaust story has to be at least mostly accurate. It has the main idea. If its wrong, its only wrong on details.Why does it have to be? Will it upset your anti-Name the Jew campaign if it were not?

[Trojan]

By gassing I mean Zyklon B and CO. Do you maintain that less than 50% of the 6 million were killed by gassing?

Zyklon B gassing is def. under 3 million. Egghead had the numbers all tallied once upon a time - damn if I can find it at the moment.

Fairly certain executions (EZ groups in Russia) was the #1 most common method or it was damn close, the overall gassing number was just under 50% if I recall correctly (something like 2.6 million of 5.4 total).

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

The evidence I have seen has led me to believe that its a question of details, not the main idea. The main idea is not in doubt.

It's like a presidental election when the winner has already clenched victory but you don't know by what percentage he'll win by. The main idea is that the guy won. But the details still aren't clear.

[Commander]

This poll should have included a 4th option,

(D) - both B & C options

That would have reflected my views more accurately.

[Burrhus]

Stick to the Facts: I object to the term "every" since clearly not every Jew was targeted - in fact there was one high-ranking nazi (under Goering I believe, don't remember the name) who was well known to be Jewish and for whom Goering vouched for.

If, as you seem to be saying, the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, that raises two questions. The first has already been mentioned in a reply to Der Sozialist: Which jews were they intending on killing, which were they not intending to kill, what criteria were they using to distinguish between the two classes and what evidence is there they were making such a distinction?

Second, if exterminationists believe that the Germans did not intend to kill all jews, then the use of the term genocide is inappropriate with respect to the (alleged) jewish holocaust.

gen·o·cide NOUN:

The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/genocide

Do you wish to concede that the term genocide is hyperbolic in regard to the (alleged) jewish holocaust?


Stick: I also don't know for sure whether MOST of them died in Zyklon-B gas chambers because many died in exhaust-fume gas chambers and by other means.

I don't know that anyone died in a gas chamber but that is not relevant. The basic holocaust story as commonly believed certainly contains as a dominant element the use of gas chambers to kill jews. As Auschwitz was the place where the largest number of jews were (allegedly) killed and gas chambers were (supposedly) used there, the gas chamber is still the dominant element in the story. In fact, as I understand the story, gas chambers were (supposedly) used at a number of different locations. Most people still believe that there were gas chambers at Dachau and the other camps in Germany which most exterminationists no longer assert. Given the believed ubiquity of gas chambers, it is reasonable to assume that most people believe that the basic holocaust story asserts that most of the jews were killed in that fashion.

Debating the percentage of jews (allegedly) killed in gas chambers seems to me to be beside the point unless any exterminationists wish to alter the story to say that gas chambers were rarely used and that very few jews (allegedly) died in that manner.

Stick: I also don't know what the plans were as of 1939.

I clearly stated above that the time frame was between 1939 and 1945 so as to not exclude any possible element of the (supposed) planning of the holocaust.

Stick: I also don't believe they had quite gotten around attempting to round up all of the jews in every inch of territory they controlled.

What the Germans may or may not have achieved in their (supposed) attempt to kill all of the jews is not at issue here. The issue is their (supposed ) intent.

Stick: I am assuming that the OP didn't intended to phrase the question so narrowly as to be impossible - such a poll would be entirely meaningless.

I don't think theres a single person who would answer 'true' to the question under a literal interpretation.

Since I assume that people don't waste their time advancing meaningless questions for polling, I have construed the question with the above qualifications.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe that I phrased the question too narrowly. The basic holocaust story is that the Germans intended to kill all of the jews, 4-6 million were killed and gas chambers were the main weapon used to kill them. That is the story that most people believe as I perceive the situation to be. That is what I am asking people to answer true or false to.

If as you claim no one can answer true to the question, then it is necessarily the case that at least one of the tenets of the story as I have framed it is false. Either the Germans did not intend to kill all of the jews which presents one with the questions posed above or 4-6 million jews were not killed which contradicts the findings of nearly all of the most respected exterminationist historians (and common belief) or that gas chambers were not the main weapon used to do the killing which is the commonly held belief of those who accept the basic holocaust story as true.

It was certainly not my intention to pose a meaningless question. I think that my statement of the basic holocaust story is accurate with respect to what is commonly believed to be that story. Should any exterminationists wish to emend the basic holocaust story with regard to intent, number and method, that effort would be welcomed. It would also be welcomed that, if they do so, they make those emendations known to the general public as widely and aggressivley as they can.

The fact that most people still believe that there were gas chambers at Dachau seems to demonstrate that exterminationists have been lax in getting the truth out to the general public.

[Trojan]

The fact that most people still believe that there were gas chambers at Dachau seems to demonstrate that exterminationists have been lax in getting the truth out to the general public.

Most of the people in the US could not identify our secretary of state - their failure doesn't affect reality.

[Basil Fawlty]

Zyklon B gassing is def. under 3 million. Egghead had the numbers all tallied once upon a time - damn if I can find it at the moment.

Fairly certain executions (EZ groups in Russia) was the #1 most common method or it was damn close, the overall gassing number was just under 50% if I recall correctly (something like 2.6 million of 5.4 total).Ok, I just wanted to clarify what the current state of play is with church doctrine, sorry, oops!, Proven Historical Fact.

[Basil Fawlty]

The evidence I have seen has led me to believe that its a question of details, not the main idea. The main idea is not in doubt.Then why do some people doubt it?

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

There isn't much doubt in mainstream society.

Outside of mainstream society, there are people who hate jews, and want to frame history to fit their views of jewish conspiracies. There are people who are bitter that Germany lost the war. There are motives for people to want to question history and bend it to their advantage.

They have the right to do this. But they won't get far.

[Basil Fawlty]

Most of the people in the US could not identify our secretary of state - their failure doesn't affect reality.It does actually, because this ignorance helps shape reality. If they don't know who the Secretary is then they are even less likely to know what is being done in their name and with their tacit support.

I would go even further and say their ignorance is a necessary condition for small elites to write themselves blank cheques in terms of policy formation and execution.
.

[Burrhus]

This poll should have included a 4th option,

(D) - both B & C options

That would have reflected my views more accurately.

For the record, I did not include option c in the poll. My posting of the poll was altered by a moderator who has refused my request to remove option c.

What kind of people "couldn't possibly care less"? If the holocaust story is true, then only a moral cretin could be indifferent to such an event. If it is false, then a monstrous evil has been perpetrated on the German people by such a lie and the jews have used this lie to gain undeserved wealth and sympathy for themselves.

In either case, the truth is a matter of great import, and indifference is an inappropriate response.

[Basil Fawlty]

There isn't much doubt in mainstream society.So what? As Trojan rightly observed, these are the same 'most people' who could not name the current Secretary of State.
Outside of mainstream society, there are people who hate jews, and want to frame history to fit their views of jewish conspiracies. There are people who are bitter that Germany lost the war. There are motives for people to want to question history and bend it to their advantage.Have you ever considered that the victors might have just such motives?
They have the right to do this.If they enjoy the aegis of the First Amendment of the US Constitution, otherwise no, they don't, as evidenced by the criminalisation in many countries. But they won't get far.Yes, especially if you are behind bars or thrown out of your job for questioning Holy Writ.

[Trojan]

It does actually, because this ignorance helps shape reality. If they don't know who the Secretary is then they are even less likely to know what is being done in their name and with their tacit support.

I would go even further and say their ignorance is a necessary condition for small elites to write themselves blank cheques in terms of policy formation and execution.
.

That was not the point I was trying to make, but I think you know that. :deadhorse:

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

Have you ever considered that the victors might have just such an interest?
Yes but I still think evidence points close to the side of the victors.

If they enjoy the aegis of the First Amendment of the US Constitution, otherwise no, they don't as evidenced by the criminalisation in many countries.
I'm aware of this. I oppose the suppression. But I still think even without suppression, the story will stand stand.

[Basil Fawlty]

For the record, I did not include option c in the poll. My posting of the poll was altered by a moderator who has refused my request to remove option c.

What kind of people "couldn't possibly care less"? If the holocaust story is true, then only a moral cretin could be indifferent to such an event. If it is false, then a monstrous evil has been perpetrated on the German people by such a lie and the jews have used this lie to gain undeserved wealth and sympathy for themselves.

In either case, the truth is a matter of great import, and indifference is an inappropriate response.I suppose then C could be reworded as "I dont care, I am a moral cretin."

[Basil Fawlty]

That was not the point I was trying to make, but I think you know that. :deadhorse:I do, but I was trying to suggest another point. That public perceptions are important to reality insofar as they have grave political consequences. The public perception - right or wrong - that 6 million Jews were done away with has political consequences. If this perception was altered to the opposite view, then the poltical consequences would be wide ranging and signifcant; and I don't mean anything so crass as the revival of Nazism, that great Lipstadtian bogeyman.

[Der Sozialist]

Have you ever considered that the victors might have just such motives?


Like what Herr Goebbels did with the Katyn massacre---I believe he said, later, "Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers. That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us."--- Goebbels, Joseph. The Goebbels Diaries (1942-1943). Translated by Louis P. Lochner. Doubleday & Company. 1948.

Karma, is it not?

[Basil Fawlty]

Like what Herr Goebbels did with the Katyn massacre---I believe he said, later, "Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers. That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us."--- Goebbels, Joseph. The Goebbels Diaries (1942-1943). Translated by Louis P. Lochner. Doubleday & Company. 1948.

Karma, is it not?And your point is?

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

Here are my views on the holocaust.

They are the same as norman finkelstein's www.normanfinkelstein.com.

The holocaust happened. For about 20 years after it, organized jewry wasn't effected by it. Then Israel won its war against the Palestenians in the 1960. We then decided to ally with them as they have shown strength. To keep a weak image, Israel supporters agressively pushed the holocaust story through media outlets. At this point, 20 years later, jews started to become obsessed with it. Therefore, jews still appear to be weak when they are quite strong. Suffering has been ranked, and comparing the holocaust to other trajedies is known as trivializing it. There is a definate industry to push these facts. But I believe these facts are still accurate, they are just exploited.

[Basil Fawlty]

Here are my views on the holocaust.

They are the same as norman finkelstein's www.normanfinkelstein.com (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com).

The holocaust happened. For about 20 years after it, organized jewry wasn't effected by it. Then Israel won its war against the Palestenians in the 1960. We then decided to ally with them as they have shown strength. To keep a weak image, Israel supporters agressively pushed the holocaust story through media outlets. At this point, 20 years later, jews started to become obsessed with it. Therefore, jews still appear to be weak when they are quite strong. Suffering has been ranked, and comparing the holocaust to other trajedies is known as trivializing it. There is a definate industry to push these facts. But I believe these facts are still accurate, they are just exploited.Ok, so leaving aside the question of accuracy, you agree that there are strong motives - other than the proclaimed interest in historical accuracy - to maintain and promote the story?

[Der Sozialist]

And your point is?
Germany exaggerated the Soviets role in Katyn and tried to paint the Soviets as "genocidal maniacs"—So, the Soviets are only re-paying the Germans for propaganda with propaganda.

If Germany had not attempted to slander the USSR in such a fashion then maybe the "Holocaust" would be more of a footnote in history rather than a chapter.

[Starr]

without reading into an endless supply of long and dragged out details written about by the "believers" and revisionists, alike, I will just say that my opinion has always been that details have been inflated or exaggerated to some extent just as is normally the case with wartime propaganda. the whole entire package has stuck around, however because it is useful for certain ends.

Going to what constitutes "false" as stated in the first post than I would have to choose that.

[Arrow Cross]

No, not necessarily every jew. Their plan might have been to kill most of Europe's jews.
Why in the world, when they were fighting a lost war and heavily needed workforce? They would have been foolish to systematically exterminate their slave-labour, Jewish, or not. No wonder it didn't happen. ;)

[Trojan]

Why in the world, when they were fighting a lost war and heavily needed workforce? They would have been foolish to systematically exterminate their slave-labour, Jewish, or not. No wonder it didn't happen. ;)

Why in the world, when Germany was facing its first significant strategic reversal (battle of Moscow) would Hitler declare war on the mightest industrial nation on the planet?

[Basil Fawlty]

Germany exaggerated the Soviets role in Katyn and tried to paint the Soviets as "genocidal maniacs"—So, the Soviets are only re-paying the Germans for propaganda with propaganda.How did they exaggerate it? The Soviets did massacre the Polish officers, even the other allies at the Nuremberg Lynching Party thought Soviet attempts to peddle Katyn as a German crime was going too far. They must surely have realised that by accepting the Soviet Katyn Report (btw, written by the same crew as authored the Auschwitz Report) it would undermine the credibility of the Nuremberg circus amongst a public who already knew that Katyn was Soviet.
By describing Katyn as propaganda are you denying Soviet repsonsibility?
If Germany had not attempted to slander the USSR in such a fashion then maybe the "Holocaust" would be more a footnote in history rather than a chapter.What does that mean? That it is largely a product of the NKVD special effects department?

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

Ok, so leaving aside the question of accuracy, you agree that there are strong motives - other than the proclaimed interest in historical accuracy - to maintain and promote the story?
I agree with that. It would never succeed if it wasn't largely true though.

[Basil Fawlty]

I agree with that. It would never succeed if it wasn't largely true though.Why not? It was a widely known fact at one time that people had sexual congress with the devil, and such people were executed. On your logic then, the witch hysteria that gripped Europe and the American Colonies must have been largely based on truth. Its interesting to note that to deny the existence of witches etc, was itself an offence punishable by death. Eerily familiar, no?

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

Why not? It was a widely known fact at one time that people had sexual congress with the devil, and such people were executed. On your logic then, the witch hysteria that gripped Europe and the American Colonies must have been largely based on truth. Its interesting to note that to deny the existence of witches etc, was itself an offence punishable by death. Eerily familiar, no?
People are more scientific minded these days. If it was a complete lie, a complete hoax, there would be individualists who would challange it, we're not in the dark ages, and there would be more than there are right now. There would be unbiased individuals who look at history and say it is wrong, rather than people, the small group of people, who always have an exterior motive to study it. There would be enough of them that suppression would be impossible within a democratic system because if the story was false, evidence would certainly follow.

The fact that jews didn't care about it early on proves it wasn't a conspiracy from the beginning, at least not a Jewish one. American Jews only cared about it once we started allying with Israel.

[Globus]

One certainly gets that impression. You have to accept the whole story (whatever it happens to be at the time) or else you are a heretic deserving of vilification, persecution, and ultimately, prosecution. We see lots of the first here, and if it were possible, the second and third no doubt.

Actually, you just have to have some intelligent, knowledgeable reasons for denying aspect of proven history (whatever aspects happened to be currently being denied) otherwise it is simply ignorant opinion motivated by something else.

For example, lamely talking about exaggerations without having a specific example or a shred of evidence to support it is just mindless denial.

[Globus]

It does actually, because this ignorance helps shape reality. If they don't know who the Secretary is then they are even less likely to know what is being done in their name and with their tacit support.

A perfect example of Holocaust denial. Almost all deniers have little if any knowledge of the history they deny, excuse me, or claim is "exaggerated". The claims are just expressions of emotions.

I would go even further and say their ignorance is a necessary condition for small elites to write themselves blank cheques in terms of policy formation and execution.
.

Just as ignorance is a license for people on the fringe to believe in the wildest conspiracies without a shred of evidence.

[Globus]

I suppose then C could be reworded as "I dont care, I am a moral cretin."

Less so than outright denial, actually.

[Stick to the Facts]

If, as you seem to be saying, the Germans did not intend to kill every jew, that raises two questions. The first has already been mentioned in a reply to Der Sozialist: Which jews were they intending on killing, which were they not intending to kill, what criteria were they using to distinguish between the two classes and what evidence is there they were making such a distinction?

As for which they intended to kill and which they didn't - take a look at my avatar, do I look like a Nazi to you? How should I know?

Seriously tho, as with all racists, there are always a few exceptions made for the ones that are "ok". As for any other jews, I have no idea what criteria they used - I suspect they global plan was to kill off as many as possible. I'm sure that, as with any beaurocratic body, there was some corruption, so I have no doubt that some jews bribed their way out.

I have never heard of any credible authority whatsoever that has claimed that the Nazis intended to exterminate EVERY Jew to the last.

The definition of 'genocide' under international law, which has been incorporated directly into US law and EU law as a condition of membership, genocide in no way requires extermination of every person. In fact, it doesn't require killing a SINGLE person because mass forced migration also counts.

If this poll was intended to get a yes answer ONLY if they intended to kill EVERY jew, then even Eli Wiesel himself would have to say no. And if that's true someone should stop posting meaningless waste-of-time polls.

Second, if exterminationists believe that the Germans did not intend to kill all jews, then the use of the term genocide is inappropriate with respect to the (alleged) jewish holocaust.

Nope, because as I said above there is no such requirement that every person be killed, and such a requirement would be absolutely absurd. To avoid a 'holocaust' you'd just simply deport one single person. That is absurd. I can quote the applicable genocide statutes if you like.

Do you wish to concede that the term genocide is hyperbolic in regard to the (alleged) jewish holocaust?

Absolutely not, for the reasons above.

I don't know that anyone died in a gas chamber but that is not relevant.

It is absolutely not irrlevant - it was part of the poll. And if you deny it then you must deny the eye witness testimony of hundreds if not thousands of people including numerous Nazi officers.

The basic holocaust story as commonly believed certainly contains as a dominant element the use of gas chambers to kill jews. As Auschwitz was the place where the largest number of jews were (allegedly) killed and gas chambers were (supposedly) used there, the gas chamber is still the dominant element in the story. In fact, as I understand the story, gas chambers were (supposedly) used at a number of different locations. Most people still believe that there were gas chambers at Dachau and the other camps in Germany which most exterminationists no longer assert. Given the believed ubiquity of gas chambers, it is reasonable to assume that most people believe that the basic holocaust story asserts that most of the jews were killed in that fashion.

First, while the Nazis tried to dynamite most of the gas chambers as the Soviets approached, they left at least two intact (one was dynamited but unsuccessfully.) Second, even if "most" "exterminationinsts" say that they no longer thing there were gas chambers at certain sites, that doesn't mean anything. I'll also note that you state this without proof - for all I know it is one of those "real" pieces of evidence that looks fake, that the deniers/revisionists use to refute "fake" "jewish" evidence that looks real.


Debating the percentage of jews (allegedly) killed in gas chambers seems to me to be beside the point unless any exterminationists wish to alter the story to say that gas chambers were rarely used and that very few jews (allegedly) died in that manner.

Anyone that thinks that whether or not the Holocaust was real all hinges on whether 49% or 51% died in gas chambers is just absurd. When that debates over we can all move on to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I clearly stated above that the time frame was between 1939 and 1945 so as to not exclude any possible element of the (supposed) planning of the holocaust.

How can you say that the Holocaust wasn't 'planned' if it was hatched in 1940, but it wasn't 'planned' if it was hatched in 1939? That is absurd. I wonder if you realize that 'premeditation' as an element of first degree murder can literally be seconds - it doesn't mean setting traps or lying in wait.

There can be absolutely no doubt in your mind that Hitler was consumed with hatred of the Jews even to the end - as evidenced from his final letter written on the day before his suicide. You know, the insane rant where he tried to beg the US and UK that he didn't want a war, but how all Germans must fight to the last resource and leave nothing left for the allies and then one day rise again - and practically every other sentence was loaded with anti-semitic invective.

It is also immaterial to how many were killed or in what manner.

If you intended to phrase your poll so narrowly as to be impossible, you should have said so in the first sentence so that we could all have avoided wasting our time. No one that I've ever heard of insists that all of the things you are alleging are true.


What the Germans may or may not have achieved in their (supposed) attempt to kill all of the jews is not at issue here. The issue is their (supposed ) intent.

No, you aren't making an issue of intent - you're trying to skate just outside the lines to somehow give the appearance that the Holocause proponents are wrong. In my opinion, it is possible that the idea in 1939 was to scoop the Jews all into a few places to use as slave labor, with or without the long term goal of killing them all - then later, as resources were in short supply due to heavy losses in the war, it became more expedient to just herd them all into gas chambers, murder them, cremate them, and redistribute their clothes and save on food consumption. I feel to see how that makes the crimes any less heinous.

Stick: I am assuming that the OP didn't intended to phrase the question so narrowly as to be impossible - such a poll would be entirely meaningless.

I don't think theres a single person who would answer 'true' to the question under a literal interpretation.

Since I assume that people don't waste their time advancing meaningless questions for polling, I have construed the question with the above qualifications.

I don't believe that I phrased the question too narrowly. The basic holocaust story is that the Germans intended to kill all of the jews, 4-6 million were killed and gas chambers were the main weapon used to kill them.

It is absurd to say that 'intended' only counts if it was in 1939 and not in 1940. That certainly isn't what is meant by 'intent' in any western legal system, now or within the last 100 or 200 or 300 years. This twisted definition of "intended" is completely arbitrary, is clearly intended to skate outside the date the intent was formed, and has absolutely no precedent in any western legal system in the last century.

Next time, just ask the question using 1900 as the date, you'll get more no votes that way.

That is the story that most people believe as I perceive the situation to be. That is what I am asking people to answer true or false to.

Eli Wiesel himself would not answer no to the poll as you intended it to be read. Stop wasting my time. The very fact that you have to set the boundaries just outside where they lie proves that you know where the boundaries are. If you REALLY didn't believe the Holocaust happened, why don't you ask the question in such a way that has a shred of meaning?

If as you claim no one can answer true to the question, then it is necessarily the case that at least one of the tenets of the story as I have framed it is false.

Absolutely wrong. No one in their right mind believes the story goes according to the narrow limitations of your question.

Either the Germans did not intend to kill all of the jews which presents one with the questions posed above or 4-6 million jews were not killed which contradicts the findings of nearly all of the most respected exterminationist historians (and common belief) or that gas chambers were not the main weapon used to do the killing which is the commonly held belief of those who accept the basic holocaust story as true.

Now this is purely illogical. You are also using a twisted meaning of 'intent' that does not resemble any reasonable use of the word. If I see you walking toward me, and I have a gun in my hand, and I think to myself "that's the bastard who created that bogus poll!" and I shoot and kill you - THAT is not only intent, it is also premeditation.

Please cite a single authority anywhere that says that in order to have intent it must have been formulated 6 years in advance.

This is an example of quibbling over a detail and trying to use a warped definition in order to create some hook to base a refutation on. No one falls for this nonsense.

It was certainly not my intention to pose a meaningless question.

And yet you did because you wanted it to produce a certain answer - or alternatively, you wanted to be able to show the people that answered yes that they were wrong because you set up the question. Again, this only shows that you really doubt the holocaust didn't happen.

I think that my statement of the basic holocaust story is accurate with respect to what is commonly believed to be that story.

Your're wrong. And if there are those who do think the story follows this tune, the difference is only in the detail. You don't have anything of substance to refute so you have to quibble over detail.

Should any exterminationists wish to emend the basic holocaust story with regard to intent, number and method, that effort would be welcomed.

I've already picked off 'intent' in this post.

It would also be welcomed that, if they do so, they make those emendations known to the general public as widely and aggressivley as they can.

People already know what happened, the details are just that and don't go to the substance.

The fact that most people still believe that there were gas chambers at Dachau seems to demonstrate that exterminationists have been lax in getting the truth out to the general public.

I must be an idiot too because I still think there was one there. Even if there wasn't, again it is only a detail because there WERE gas chambers in other places. Whether they were in one place or another is entirely immaterial as to the big picture.

[Globus]

Why not? It was a widely known fact at one time that people had sexual congress with the devil, and such people were executed. On your logic then, the witch hysteria that gripped Europe and the American Colonies must have been largely based on truth. Its interesting to note that to deny the existence of witches etc, was itself an offence punishable by death. Eerily familiar, no?

Not familiar at all, and one the most idiotic of cliched denier analogies.

Neither the beliefs of sex with the devil, witches, nor the oft mentioned alien abductions have anything to do with rational based processes of the social sciences or the hard sciences. If you want to pretend that the Enlightment didn't occur and superstitious belief is the same as established history, you've just provided the reason why deniers will never be treated with any respect by those who live in the real world.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

Remember that at the trials, the nuremberg trials, the Soviets wanted them to be a farce trial Stalin trial. We objected to that, and we gave them a fair trial. After having a full chance to defend themselves with any evidence possible, the story still stood. Furthermore, certain nazis got off, so it obviously wasn't just a farce designed to kill people who we happened to not like.

[Der Sozialist]

How did they exaggerate it?

I forgot who I was talking to. I apologize. ;)

[Der Sozialist]

How did they exaggerate it? The Soviets did massacre the Polish officers,

And those Jews did really die. ;)

[Kriger]

I voted false.

It has nothing to do with conspiracy or intentional hoax. That may never be determined due to the fact that so many individuals and circumstances lost to record are involved in this segment of human history.

It is enough to realize that whether intentional or not, too many "facts" of the Holocaust are in contradiction to each other. By the same token, these contradictions are glossed over with speculation that cannot either be proven or disproven, while nonetheless being presented as "fact".

It is also enough to realize that the jews themselves need to let go of their continued capitalization of this event. There are many atrocities in the history of mankind, this being just one of them. In the meantime, we have atrocities occuring in the present that need to be addressed, without justifying these atrocites with atrocities from the past.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

I believe most of us here would agree that facts can be determined best by the evidence they leave behind. If you take this viewpoint, its hard to argue against the main idea of the holocaust story.

[Basil Fawlty]

I forgot who I was talking to. I apologize. ;)I beg your pardon?

[Der Sozialist]

I beg your pardon?

The Soviets did massacre the Polish officers,

Nothing really, I am just surprised by your word choice—"massacre" what an interesting choice. Did the Germans "massacre" Polish officers, Basil?

[Winston]

I believe most of us here would agree that facts can be determined best by the evidence they leave behind. If you take this viewpoint, its hard to argue against the main idea of the holocaust story.

That's why I don't believe in it. I have tired of the whole subject, but since I became more interested in race and have seen how the issue is treated by many academics (race deniers, et al) I have become even more convinced that the holocaust could easily exist as a hoax.

[Basil Fawlty]

Remember that at the trials, the nuremberg trials, the Soviets wanted them to be a farce trial Stalin trial. We objected to that, and we gave them a fair trial. After having a full chance to defend themselves with any evidence possible, the story still stood. Furthermore, certain nazis got off, so it obviously wasn't just a farce designed to kill people who we happened to not like.It obviously was a farce. How anyone can call a trial of the vanquished by the victors fair is beyond me.

[Basil Fawlty]

Nothing really, I am just surprised by your word choice—"massacre" what an interesting choice. Did the Germans "massacre" Polish officers, Basil?Are you going to start making bogus observations about how 'massacre' is a 'moral' term or what?

[Der Sozialist]

Are you going to start making bogus observations about how 'massacre' is a moral term or what?
I am curious if you feel that the Germans were in the habit of massacring Polish officers and citizens, that is all. :)

[Basil Fawlty]

I am curious if you feel that the Germans were in the habit of massacring Polish officers and citizens, that is all. :)'Feel' is not appropriate to this, 'believe' or 'know' is.

[Der Sozialist]

'Feel' is not appropriate to this, 'believe' or 'know' is.
Feel (:p) free to replace "believe" for "feel" if that truly makes you happy.

[Basil Fawlty]

Feel (:p) free to replace "believe" for "feel" if that truly makes you happy.Its not about feeling happy, its about making sense. ;)

[Der Sozialist]

Its not about feeling happy, its about making sense. ;)

I take it that you don’t want to answer the question. It is a bit interesting that you used such a "loaded word" to describe the said executions of ~8,000 Polish officers but will not label the ~12,000 executed Polish officers, alluded to in the Goebbels diary, by that same word.

[Basil Fawlty]

I take it that you don’t want to answer the question. It is a bit interesting that you used such a "loaded word" to describe the said executions of ~8,000 Polish officers but will not label the ~12,000 executed Polish officers, alluded to in the Goebbels diary, by that same word.Do you understand the function of the scare quotes around the word find in that quote?
The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers.

[Felix the Cat]

For voting purposes, this is the basic holocaust story: Members of the German government between 1939-1945 planned, organized, intended and attempted to kill every jew in territory under their control; the number of jews killed was between 4 and 6 million; the majority of jews who were killed died in gas chambers employing Zyklon-B gas.
Does the claim that generic "members of the German government" carried out the killings without the knowledge of Adolf Hitler constitute "denial"?

[Basil Fawlty]

Does the claim that generic "members of the German government" carried out the killings without the knowledge of Adolf Hitler constitute "denial"?Are you by any chance David Irving? :p

[Felix the Cat]

haha, I'm just curious to what degree the story depends on being personally ordered by Hitler

Let me pitch this definition of The Holocaust

The deliberate destruction by asphyxiation and fire of six million Jews of all nations, classes, ages and sexes, on the direct personal order of Adolf Hitler

What parts of this can be questioned without incurring charges of "denial"?

[Stick to the Facts]

It seems completely irrational to me that anyone can honestly look at the mountain of evidence supporting the Holocaust and say, "Nah, that's not convincing, there's too many holes in it."

What are the holes? That one person said paint in a gas chamber was white, and another gray? That some people claimed to see smoke billowing from crematorium chimneys when in fact there was little?

People that think that such accounts of eye witness testimony are suspicious should look over a random sample of eye witness testimonies from routine cases. Eye witnesses are almost always contradictory over at least some points, even when their memories are fresh. If you think that such inconsistencies in eye witness testimony not only nullify each other, but also discredit the mountains of documents and photographic evidence, then you are using a far, far tougher standard of 'proof' than has even been applied in any criminal case ever presented in US history.

If you were to go to trial for murder and your defense was that a conspiracy manufactured and planted the evidence to frame you, guess what? The prosecutor does NOT have to prove that there was no conspiracy. YOU have to prove that there WAS one. And if you can't produce any credible evidence, you can't even mention the supposed conspiracy at your own trial.

If you don't believe the evidence then you certainly can't believe in the military campaigns of Caesar, Alexander, even Napoleon.

You certainly can't believe in the divinity of Jesus christ. There is no way a rational person can take the bible as convincing evidence of anything and say that mountains of photgraphs, internal documents, actual physical structures, and eye witness testimony are NOT credible evidene of the holocaust.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

It obviously was a farce. How anyone can call a trial of the vanquished by the victors fair is beyond me.
And btw, America wasn't "controlled by jews" yet at that time. So if your stance is that jews on their own essentially made up the story to further their own interests, I question whether that could withstand factual investigation and would like to see it attempted.

[Globus]

It obviously was a farce. How anyone can call a trial of the vanquished by the victors fair is beyond me.

Well, of course, the fact that the prosecution is the victor and and accused the vanquished doesn't in and of itself say anything about the quality of the trial. The best way to determine that is to look at the trial. But it is easier to make the simplistic and illogical argument.

[Basil Fawlty]

And btw, America wasn't "controlled by jews" yet at that time. So if your stance is that jews on their own essentially made up the story to further their own interests, I question whether that could withstand factual investigation and would like to see it attempted.I see. Well why don't I just let you continue there with that debate with your imaginary interlocutor. I mean this goes way beyond strawman building. :rofl:

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

That's why I said if. To give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you take a more reasonable stance.

Here's the thing. It is like two people are running from a bear. They realize, they don't have to outrun the bear. They only have to outrun each other.

The bear represents falsehood. The holocaust story may not be perfect. But it certainly comes closer to perfection and accuracy than anything I've seen put up against it.

[Basil Fawlty]

That's why I said if. To give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you take a more reasonable stance.To give me the benefit of the doubt? Hold on, you completely ignored what I said and instead came back with a response to God knows who or what about America and Jewish control. That's why I thought you might have been mixing me up with someone else. :rolleyes:

.

[Nemo]

It is not hard to figure that the 6 million claim by the jews is nothing but a big lie.

All you have to do is simple arithmetic to see that it is nothing but a bogus claim.

Prior to the so called holohoax, their was an estimated 12 million jews, now the jews say 6 million were killed in a holohoax, which means that at the end of the war, their were only 6 million jews were left.
the consensus from 2005 says their are now 14 million jews in the world, so tell me where did these 8 million jews come from in the 60 years since the end of the war.:hitler:

[Stick to the Facts]

It is not hard to figure that the 6 million claim by the jews is nothing but a big lie.

All you have to do is simple arithmetic to see that it is nothing but a bogus claim.

Prior to the so called holohoax, their was an estimated 12 million jews, now the jews say 6 million were killed in a holohoax, which means that at the end of the war, their were only 6 million jews were left.
the consensus from 2005 says their are now 14 million jews in the world, so tell me where did these 8 million jews come from in the 60 years since the end of the war.:hitler:

................I'm guessing dad never took you aside to tell you about the birds and the bees?

[Globus]

It is not hard to figure that the 6 million claim by the jews is nothing but a big lie.

All you have to do is simple arithmetic to see that it is nothing but a bogus claim.

Prior to the so called holohoax, their was an estimated 12 million jews, now the jews say 6 million were killed in a holohoax, which means that at the end of the war, their were only 6 million jews were left.

No, prior to the Holocaust there were about 16.5 million Jews. Today, there are around 13 million, over 60 years after the Holocaust.

[Nemo]

................I'm guessing dad never took you aside to tell you about the birds and the bees?

Oh come on now, are you saying the jews produced 8 million jews in 60 years, thats lke believing that 6 million jews died in a holohoax

[Nemo]

No, prior to the Holocaust there were about 16.5 million Jews. Today, there are around 13 million, over 60 years after the Holocaust.

What do you jews do change the figures to cover up your lies:rolleyes:

[Globus]

Oh come on know, are you saying the jews produced 8 million jews in 60 years, thats lke believing that 6 million jews died in a holohoax

Your numbers are crap.

[Stick to the Facts]

Oh come on now, are you saying the jews produced 8 million jews in 60 years, thats lke believing that 6 million jews died in a holohoax

Dang, I made the mistake of taking your figures as real and then compared to the 2000 total. That'll teach me to trust the unsupported evidence of a denier/revisionist.

Even if it did go from 6 million to 13, that is still BELOW the overall world population growth rate of 237% over the years from 1950 - 2000.

IE:

in 1950 the world population was 2.56 billion

in 2000 it was 6.08 billion

That's an increase of 237.5% (ie double plus an extra 37.5%) - and that's in only 50 years, not 60

As for the jewish population:

population in 1939: 16.728 million
in 1948: 11.5 million
in 2000: 13.192 million

increase from 1948 - 2000 = 14.7% over 52 years.

Dang, that's a pretty slow growth rate. Far lower than the overall world growth rate. Now go find some other theory.

[Stick to the Facts]

What do you jews do change the figures to cover up your lies:rolleyes:

Seriously kid, don't you have a spelling quiz tomorrow or something?

[Stick to the Facts]

And FYI Zyklon B is NOT a gas.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

You know what I say.

When Galileo found out that the Earth revolves around the sun, he was stopped by the Catholic Church which had strong influence at the time. There was a time and place when such a conspiracy could take place. But not in America. That time is over, at least in our place. And with this environment, such a perpetrated lie without resolute opposition is impossible. The truth always leaves behind evidence. If jews and/or others were making this up, something would come out by now, they would be caught. We now know of Stalin's farce trials that may have seemed real to his people. But there is no evidence to prove a signifigantly varient scenario to the holocaust.

[Trojan]

Does the claim that generic "members of the German government" carried out the killings without the knowledge of Adolf Hitler constitute "denial"?

To me, no - others may disagree.

But do you realy think all that could occur without Hitler's knowledge?

[Commander]

So far the Nay's are beating the Yea's, all the hollowcost cheerleaders need to ramp it up a little. :rofl:

[Ahknaton]

I voted for "true", however there are probably elements of the story that are fabrications or exaggerations. I'm also against "Holocaust denial" laws. That doesn't change the basic fact that a killing of Jews on a large scale occurred that equates to attempted genocide. I don't think that the Holocaust amounts to some kind of historical refutation of nationalism or racialism, however.

[Stick to the Facts]

So far the Nay's are beating the Yea's, all the hollowcost cheerleaders need to ramp it up a little. :rofl:

The bad news is that this forum isn't exactly a representative cross section of the public at-large.

[Stick to the Facts]

I voted for "true", however there are probably elements of the story that are fabrications or exaggerations. I'm also against "Holocaust denial" laws. That doesn't change the basic fact that a killing of Jews on a large scale occurred that equates to attempted genocide. I don't think that the Holocaust amounts to some kind of historical refutation of nationalism or racialism, however.

I agree, the question was intentionally stacked so that the cutoffs (ie 1939, intent to kill EVERY jew) were just outside the bounds of what really happened.

If you ask me, that only demonstrates that the OP actually knew where those boundaries are, and set the question up to just slip outside them.

Seems to suggest that the OP himself might have some internal conflict about what did or did not happen. I think if I were convinced it didn't happen I'd be happy to use more accurate figures.

[Sulla the Dictator]

An open challenge stands before the "Revisionists" of the Phora. A rather direct one.

[Fade the Butcher]

Don't care.

[brigadier Biggles]

The bad news is that this forum isn't exactly a representative cross section of the public at-large.

thats because the internet has alot of things most people not internet savvy wont know about.

An open challenge stands before the "Revisionists" of the Phora. A rather direct one.

what again :rolleyes:

the challenge is more on you to make this hollowcost more important to me than other hollowcosts when the facts are still disputed to this day and it involves a people i really don't give a toss about.

[Captain Marinesko]

The Holocaust is a lot broader than people think- it involved the killings of an equal if not greater number of non-Jews. So it is perfectly valid to criticize overly Judeo-centric treatments of the Holocaust- but at the same time many other targetted groups really haven't been bringing it up as much(e.g. Russians or Ukrainians).

[cerberus]

Captain Rthe challenge is more on you to make this hollowcost more important to me than other hollowcosts when the facts are still disputed to this day and it involves a people I really don't give a toss about.

It is not about the Jews or specifically about the Nazis - a warning more of what we as a species are capable of , not the first time we did and it won't be the last - God knows our track record is nothing to be proud of.
At best it is a warning - but then we have had these before - we listen and learn very poorly and are full of regrets and promises.
The holocaust cannot stand aside from WW2 , nor can it be seen as the dominant factor which started it - no war no holocaust - an example of what can happen in a society in which there are no checks and balances to protect those who are deemed to be less than human by way of propaganda fueled by myth and ignorance.

The holocaust has been highjacked by people who are equally vunerable to propaganda which exists via fear , myth and ignorance.
Karl Jaspers spoke of a "Warning from History" - which we have and which we ignore - I think we are just a very petty minded and ignorant species and given enough rope we will continue to hang ourselves time and time again.

This "WN" obession with Jews and "holohoax" , the view that the holocaust was a Jew only event - promoted by some Jews and all "WN's" restricts our understanding of the Holocaust - which did not start and end with the jews alone , it went much further ,deeper and had the potential to have been socially destructive beyond measure.

In short the hlocaust is what you get when circumstances permit a psychopath and a petty minded one at that to achieve power - Kershaw was correct when he described Hitler as having a genocidal mentality - this he had and any number of men who had lost track of their own humanity in making his vision become their reality.

As second holocaust debate , Neo looks only at the process by which genocide was encated in terms of physical extermination of subgroups deemed not to be worthy of life - he ignores the ideology and mindset which drove it at all levels and the dehumanising which led throughout the 1930's to 1945.
That this now has to be denied and swept aside shows an inability and a positive resistance to learn from the basis of what was a human experience.
It has been demonstarted that the first selections took place not on the ramp at Auschwitz or at Treblinka but in hospitals and doctors surgeries and that the proces of killing people started in Germany , killing Germans with clearly defined social, racial and economic outcomes - that this was done under a cloak of secrecy , that it was illegal , carried out by doctors ( totally unethically) under the direction of the NSDAP and the SS is well known and is cannot be denied.
Now that has not stopped some people from trying to explain that it was not how it seemed , that it was merciful and humane and was for the good of society - just remember that when it is your turn to die and it will no doubt be a comfort to you.
The move from "T4" to "13f14" has also been demonstarted - and alongside this the move to eliminate the unwanted by way of "Special Actions" , in Poland and eastern Europe has been demonstarted , that this was to be a part of how war was to be waged and that the Wehrmacht would be expected to co-operate and assist in these mass kilings is no secret - it has been amply demonstrated and is well documented - there is no secret and those who wish to deny it see only conspiracy.
The official theft endorsed by the Hitler Goverment from those they deported to ghettos before moving them on to "the east" is again beyond question , the theft which was complelted "in the east" is again well known , documented and beyond question.
The disposal of those who could not work - again this is beyond question - I refer you back to T4 , this was a prime consideration in the selection process and in turn gave rise to the term "useless eaters" , if you could not work , you did not eat and in the interests of economic savings and the German poeple you would die.
This same rule of thumb dictated who lived and died within the camp system - it was nothing new - neither the selection process nor the resulting deaths.
The holocaust - not just about killing Jews - it was about changing the face of Europe and society - "The New Order" , law , morality and humanity had been set aside - people would be asked to be hard - youth would be made as hard as "Krupp steel".
The holocaust - it was a part of this process - an expression of the end result.
You may wish to debate gas chambers until you are blue in the face , it is but one facet of the cost and the total transformation of Europe and her peoples demanded by Hitler and his goverment.

What sort of society would this have resulted in - the brillant and awful "Germania" as planned and projected by Hitler , the "sterile art" which he had demed to be "Germanic" would hide an inhuman society in which family and life would have no value - Germans themselves would have found that the wheel would have come full circle - the killing started in germany and it would again return to Germany , a "Brave New World" of sorts.

[Nemo]

Seriously kid, don't you have a spelling quiz tomorrow or something?

Typical jew response, when the jew is exposed for his lies, he trys to discredit the accuser with simple talk to show that that the accuser has no credibility.

The jews inflated the deaths to get sympathy then perpetrated the biggest extortion racket in the world by using the the holohoax to extort billions of dollars from some European countries.
Talk about organized crime, the jews are the God father of organized crime world wide.
They then with the help of the British stole land from the palestinians whinning they needed their own country to protect themselves.

Talk about a holocaust, the jews have committed a holocaust against the palestinians and Lebanese people by deliberately killing unarmed civilians, and using cluster bombs in Lebanon.

The Israelie People and Government should be brought up before the world court for war crimes.

[calvin]

What sort of society would this have resulted in - the brillant and awful "Germania" as planned and projected by Hitler , the "sterile art" which he had demed to be "Germanic" would hide an inhuman society in which family and life would have no value - Germans themselves would have found that the wheel would have come full circle - the killing started in germany and it would again return to Germany , a "Brave New World" of sorts

“A society in which family and life would have no value”, as opposed to our present system of abortion on a whim, the normalization of single parenthood, civil partnerships and gay adoption? “Sterile art” has been replaced by, Starbucks, Burger King, Westlife, pop sluttery and pornography, Brave New World indeed!

[Nemo]

Dang, I made the mistake of taking your figures as real and then compared to the 2000 total. That'll teach me to trust the unsupported evidence of a denier/revisionist.

Even if it did go from 6 million to 13, that is still BELOW the overall world population growth rate of 237% over the years from 1950 - 2000.

IE:

in 1950 the world population was 2.56 billion

in 2000 it was 6.08 billion

That's an increase of 237.5% (ie double plus an extra 37.5%) - and that's in only 50 years, not 60

As for the jewish population:

population in 1939: 16.728 million
in 1948: 11.5 million
in 2000: 13.192 million

increase from 1948 - 2000 = 14.7% over 52 years.

Dang, that's a pretty slow growth rate. Far lower than the overall world growth rate. Now go find some other theory.

Your figures are all bogus, just like your 6 million fiasco is, ever since the world began you jews never told the truth about anything.

Their are many articles around by people who dispute your holocaust lies, and many of these peole are reputatable people and historians.

[Burrhus]

Der Sozialist: Why were some Jews not sent to the camps, Burrhus?

Because there never was any plan or intention on the part of the German government to attempt a genocide of the jewish people as the holocaust story purports.

[Globus]

Typical jew response, when the jew is exposed for his lies, he trys to discredit the accuser with simple talk to show that that the accuser has no credibility.

Doesn't take long for the truth to emerge, does it.

The jews inflated the deaths to get sympathy then perpetrated the biggest extortion racket in the world by using the the holohoax to extort billions of dollars from some European countries.

The reparations were hardly extortion, and their amount was tied to the number of survivors, not the numbers killed, so your theory is nonsense.

The numbers are fairly well known: 16.5 million Jews in 1939, around 11 million after the war, and about 13-14 million today.


[snip antisemitic crap]

[Globus]

Your figures are all bogus, just like your 6 million fiasco is, ever since the world began you jews never told the truth about anything.

Their are many articles around by people who dispute your holocaust lies, and many of these peole are reputatable people and historians.

There are no reputable "people and historians" who would support a thing you say.

[Ahknaton]

Globus, you forgot to vote. These polls are very important!

[eggheadbanga]

Globus, you forgot to vote. These polls are very important!

the fate of the world, after all, rests on them.:rofl:

[Rusty Mason]

The Holocaust(TM) story is obviously a holy hoax. Its believability ranks right up there with the parting of the Red Sea and the exploits of Joshua. Expect to see it added to your old testament.

If that offends you, then think about this: if it were real, it wouldn't need laws to protect it, would it? If it were just another historical event, people wouldn't be on trial and in jail now for questioning it, would they? Of course not. No, it's another Jewish myth, just like the Anne Frank diary.

[Globus]

The Holocaust(TM) story is obviously a holyhoax. It's believability ranks right up there with the parting of the Red Sea and the exploits of Joshua. Expect to see it added to your old testament.

If that offends you, then think about this: if it were real, it wouldn't need laws to protect it, would it?

There are no laws to "protect" it. There are laws to prevent the dissemination of lies and hatred not too dissimilar from those that gave rise to the genocide in the first place. Nations who experienced this history believe it is important to their public order to discourage it.

[cerberus]

thunderTypical jew response, when the jew is exposed for his lies, he trys to discredit the accuser with simple talk to show that that the accuser has no credibility.
Actually , you make two fatal erors or assumptions / generalisations.
1. That you have exposed a truth .
2. Anyone who disagrees must be Jewish.
The simple talk is very simple , you just don't understand it.

[Felix the Cat]

In that case I think we can regard Globus as member of the "I couldn't possibly care less" category

[cerberus]

Calvin“A society in which family and life would have no value”, as opposed to our present system of abortion on a whim, the normalization of single parenthood, civil partnerships and gay adoption? “Sterile art” has been replaced by, Starbucks, Burger King, Westlife, pop sluttery and pornography, Brave New World indeed!
Calvin- going to let you in on somer "nazi secrets".
Now don't tell anyone because no one else knows these things.:nono:
Right here we go .
Sterile art - it was just that - the state decreeded what would be classed as art.
You do know of "The House of German Art" - statues and paints which reflected the nazi race code - propaganda parading as art.
Imigination and creativity - missing - like so many of Hitlers water colours - everything just the same.
Now in some of the art you will find some decent stuff, Wolfgang Wilrich - he produced some excellent studies of soldiers , Knights Cross holders and major figures within the party and SS.
By and large it is historical value more than of artist merit.

Abortion - on demand is wrong .
Likewise calvin it is wrong to gas the handicaped , mentally ill , epileptics , and to shoot them - would you not agree ? ( Polish patients were shot).
It is also wrong to starve them and to kill them by lethal injection and then to tell their famailies that they died of chest infections measles or breathing difficulties - ironic that gas "perscribed" by so called doctors would cause "breathing difficulties , don't you think so calvin ?
70,000 odd in Germany alone all for economic reasons.
Thoese Polish patients I emntioned , the empty hospitals were turned over to the SS for accomdation purposes.
Single parrenthood - calvi you do know that Himmler was of the opinion that the SS man should father as many children as he could inside or out of wedlock as long as the female was aryan ?
He saw it as their duty to do so - don't come the single family line - Himmler was all up for it.
It was party doctrine - din't you know this ???
Calvin - have you seen "Triumph of the Will" ?
The nazis had their own ideas on fast food - all those sausages .
Fast food existed then as does now.(I don't eat it myself , do you ?).
Pornograpgy - Julius Streicher - does the name ring a bell ?
What about ancient Rome , Victorian England , do you think its anything new ?

Westlife and pop sluttery - calvin are you telling me that "Westlife" should be "evacuated to the east" ?
Josephine Baker , Glenn Miller , " Underneath the street light , by the barrack gate" - you know the song calvin beloved by both the DAK and the 8th Army ?
Catch a grip cavlin - it is hard to take this seriously after a while - it really is .
Now some might call that being Jewish , but it is true.

[cerberus]

thunderYour figures are all bogus, just like your 6 million fiasco is, ever since the world began you jews never told the truth about anything.

Their are many articles around by people who dispute your holocaust lies, and many of these peole are reputatable people and historians.

Perhaps you might be able to name them ?
BurrhusBecause there never was any plan or intention on the part of the German government to attempt a genocide of the jewish people as the holocaust story purports.
:nuts: :deadhorse: :rofl:
Rusty MasonNo, it's another Jewish myth, just like the Anne Frank diary.

:deadhorse: :nuts: :rofl: :rofl:

The last two quotes , some times you don't need to say a single thing to say all that you think.

[cerberus]

Posted by MilhouseQuote:
Originally Posted by Ahknaton MMXII
Globus, you forgot to vote. These polls are very important!


the fate of the world, after all, rests on them.

Very true - I blame Eurovision and Terry Wogan for everything.:nuts: :rofl:

So let's see according to the votes of the Iranian jury , "there was no holocaust".:p
Yes , 20 idiots can make a world of difference - Florida , now there is an example of idiots for you.

[ogenoct]

I do not care if the Holocaust happened or not. I do not know if it happened or not. While some revisionist writings SOUND convincing, others do not. I think the problem is that many on the Right dismiss mainstream books on the Holocaust as "Jewish propaganda" and, as a result, ONLY indoctrinate themselves with revisionist literature. It is clear, though, that a large number of revisionists have a political agenda that, to be legitimate, requires revisionism to be true history.

Constantin

[calvin]

The numbers are fairly well known: 16.5 million Jews in 1939, around 11 million after the war

Big deal! The Jewish population before WWII was fairly well rooted, the post war population was a diaspora. You can only prove that eleven million Jews could be traced post WWII you have done nothing to demonstrate that the post war figure was accurate.

[Captain Marinesko]

Big deal! The Jewish population before WWII was fairly well rooted, the post war population was a diaspora. You can only prove that eleven million Jews could be traced post WWII you have done nothing to demonstrate that the post war figure was accurate.


Gee, I wonder WHAT happened to that well-rooted population...

[calvin]

Errrrrrrrrh! They got "unrooted" perhaps?

[Captain Marinesko]

Errrrrrrrrh! They got "unrooted" perhaps?


Uh yeah, we know that. We also know that they, like a lot of other non-Jewish people, were sent to camps and strangely disappeared.

[Nemo]

thunder
Perhaps you might be able to name them

Their is no substantiated proof that 6 million jews died in the holocauust, only the word of the jews.
Who counted the dead bodies to come up with that figure, it is all speculation and lies, created by the jews themselves'

How can you claim 6 million people were killed, when you cannot even find anything close in a body count that even comes close to that.

The 6 million figure is a jewish myth, unless the jews could have shown substantial body proof at that time.

In law enforcement you cannot charge a man for committing 10 murders, unless you have 10 bodies to prove it

[Globus]

Big deal! The Jewish population before WWII was fairly well rooted, the post war population was a diaspora.

No, the post war population was significantly less.

You can only prove that eleven million Jews could be traced post WWII you have done nothing to demonstrate that the post war figure was accurate.

It's accurate in the same way the pre-war data was accurate.

From census data.

If you had anything else to offer, one would think you would have.

[Boleslaw]

I have an idea, what about you all just the shut the fuck up about the Holocaust already! :deadhorse:

[Globus]

Their is no substantiated proof that 6 million jews died in the holocauust, only the word of the jews.

The estimate has nothing to do with word of Jews, although mindless Jew haters might utters such stupidities.

Who counted the dead bodies to come up with that figure, it is all speculation and lies, created by the jews themselves'

Who counted the bodies in any genocide? The answer, no one.

Have you ever heard of such a thing as a census?

[Captain Marinesko]

Their is no substantiated proof that 6 million jews died in the holocauust, only the word of the jews.
Who counted the dead bodies to come up with that figure, it is all speculation and lies, created by the jews themselves'

Actually there is plenty of forensics evidence, documents, confessions, eyewitnesses, etc.


In law enforcement you cannot charge a man for committing 10 murders, unless you have 10 bodies to prove it

If you can prove the man BURNT the corpses to ashes after killing the ten people, and then you even find the ashes and the oven. Well..

[eggheadbanga]

I have an idea, what about you all just the shut the fuck up about the Holocaust already! :deadhorse:

That would be sage advice to the revisionists, Nazi sympathisers and other fellow-travellers.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

Their is no substantiated proof that 6 million jews died in the holocauust, only the word of the jews.
Who counted the dead bodies to come up with that figure, it is all speculation and lies, created by the jews themselves'
Bullsh*t. Jews didn't even have media power back then.

[Nemo]

Actually there is plenty of forensics evidence, documents, confessions, eyewitnesses, etc.

Yes that some jews were killed, but no eyewittnesses or forensic evidence that even come close that it was 6 million



If you can prove the man BURNT the corpses to ashes after killing the ten people, and then you even find the ashes and the oven. Well..

You mean that the ashes they found measured up to 6 million bodies

[Globus]

Yes that some jews were killed, but no eyewittnesses or forensic evidence that even come close that it was 6 million

Death tolls are not arrived at by such methods.

You mean that the ashes they found measured up to 6 million bodies

Death tolls are not arrived at in that manner.

What we can see is that you are so intent on denying the factual that you demand ridiculous types evidence not demanded in any mass murder.

[calvin]

It's accurate in the same way the pre-war data was accurate

But any category of evidence cited by revisionist is automatically inaccurate, ahh! I think I see how it works now.

[Globus]

But any category of evidence cited by revisionist is automatically inaccurate, ahh! I think I see how it works now.

Deniers don't cite evidence. Surprised you didn't know that.

[Commander]

Deniers don't cite evidence. Surprised you didn't know that.
You haven't voted? Is this because, in your mind, to even participate in such a thing is giving credence to "Holocaust Deniers"? :confused: :jew:

[Globus]

You haven't voted? Is this because, in your mind, to even participate in such a thing is giving credence to "Holocaust Deniers"? :confused: :jew:


It is silly to pretend the facts of history are subject to a poll.

[calvin]

That statement wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you are being spanked in said poll of course!

[Globus]

That statement wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you are being spanked in said poll of course!

LOL!

I suppose deniers must take solace in winning a poll among deniers.

Was that the most you hoped to accomplish here? Or did you not expect your efforts to fail so quickly?

[calvin]

Why would I seek solace in a poll when I can revisit your dismal performance in your Shaul Chazan “eyewitness” (translators note-nazi collaborator/commie stooge) thread?

[Globus]

Why would I seek solace in a poll when I can revisit your dismal performance in your Shaul Chazan “eyewitness” (translators note-nazi collaborator/commie stooge) thread?

Yeah, you did real well there, Calvin!

[calvin]

Damn you Globby

I wish that you would stop dominating the revisionism forum and leave only the ineffectual affirmers like, Trojan, Milhouse and Cerberus to struggle on. You are so brilliant and dazzling, please, please give someone else the chance to shine. I must interrupt this post for a possibly terminal bout of laughter, sorry about that!

PS I’m doing my mum’s hall tomorrow, can you tell where I can get some of the quick drying/cover it all, paint mentioned by your eyewitlesses?

[Commander]

It is silly to pretend the facts of history are subject to a poll.
Is that all "facts" of history? Or is it just certain "facts" of history, eg. the "facts" surrounding the 1933-1945 era, & the impact on a certain influential religious group?

[Rusty Mason]

There are no laws to "protect" it. There are laws to prevent the dissemination of lies and hatred not too dissimilar from those that gave rise to the genocide in the first place. Nations who experienced this history believe it is important to their public order to discourage it.

Typical distortion of the truth. Criminy, don't Jews EVER stop lying? Several people have been arrested and tried for publicly questioning the holyhoax. Millions more do not speak publicly about it at all for fear of losing their jobs or even being arrested in some countries. New laws are going into effect soon for "hate speech" in the US. Groups like the ADL, the very powerful Jewish Supremacist anti-White hate group, get to decide which White man is a hater and which is not. Combined with GW Bush's elimination of habeas corpus and the illegal, unconstitutional, and Orwellian-named Patriot Act, criticizing Jews will become downright deadly in America the Free very soon. But this condition cannot last forever. You Jews have overreached again. If you don't reign in your grasping brethren soon there will be hell to pay. You will be thrown out of yet more countries. But look at the bright side: you'll have even more whining material for your holy books! More tall tales of the innocent Jews, persecuted for no reason at all by the evil Whites, wah, wah. Gimme a break.

[Globus]

Typical distortion of the truth.

No, a statement of the plain truth.

The lie is pretending that the laws have anything to do with a history which has already been well established.


Criminy, don't Jews EVER stop lying?

So now we see the reason for such absence of thought.

[calvin]

Found a source for my paint yet Globbers?

[Burrhus]

thunder
Perhaps you might be able to name them ?
Burrhus
:nuts: :deadhorse: :rofl:
Rusty Mason
:deadhorse: :nuts: :rofl: :rofl:

The last two quotes , some times you don't need to say a single thing to say all that you think.

Why say anything when you can just insert a bunch of silly emoticons to speak for you?

Your excessive and persistent use of the irritating "deadhorse" emoticon speaks volumes about you, Cerb. Very postmodern, the image is 'privileged' over the word. Reason is dead, emotion reigns, right Mr.Emoticon.

You're lucky that they let Globus back in or you'd be at the bottom of the barrel.

[Kriger]

Well, it seems the world will have something other than the jewish version of facts and figures for the Holocaust.

Some 30 to 50 million documents kept in a so-called Holocaust Archives stored in Bad Arolsen, Germany, have remained off-limits to historians and scholars for decades. It is considered to be the world's largest archive on the activities of the German government/military during World War II.

Speculation as to how this will affect the current "history" of the Holocaust abounds. Naturally, these speculations are divided into two camps: Those who claim it will uphold the current facts and stats, and those who claim it will shed more light on the whole truth of the matter, providing a more accurate portrayal of these years in human history.

Google "German Holocaust Archives" and choose your link of choice.

[brigadier Biggles]

cerberus, i read you loud and clear, i just don't see how 1 holocaust 60 years ago is above all others, humans have always killed each other in organised ways, the WW2 holocaust is just the most biggest recent human holocaust and was carried out in modern industrialised ways, which is why its most applicable today, not because its the most terrible, and as said the facts arent fully facts yet. £1.25 million of tax payers money is being put in to get 6000 school students to visit auschwitz, why spend so much showing them past hateful things ?, that money could pay for a new curriculum at schools to be formed on their proper roots, one badly needed.

also, isnt this a bit hypocritical Millhouse ?, only people who follow the most popular & accepted line can speak about this ?.

That would be sage advice to the revisionists, Nazi sympathisers and other fellow-travellers.

[Stick to the Facts]

Well, it seems the world will have something other than the jewish version of facts and figures for the Holocaust.

Some 30 to 50 million documents kept in a so-called Holocaust Archives stored in Bad Arolsen, Germany, have remained off-limits to historians and scholars for decades. It is considered to be the world's largest archive on the activities of the German government/military during World War II.

Speculation as to how this will affect the current "history" of the Holocaust abounds. Naturally, these speculations are divided into two camps: Those who claim it will uphold the current facts and stats, and those who claim it will shed more light on the whole truth of the matter, providing a more accurate portrayal of these years in human history.

Google "German Holocaust Archives" and choose your link of choice.

When I read this a whole bunch of possible scenarios flew through my imagination. A couple of the better ones:

1) Most documents are bureaucratic paperwork, invoices, internal memos, etc - some do pertain to the concentration camps and reinforce the currently-held picture of the holocaust.

Revisionists'/deniers' response: Ah, you can't trust that 'evidence' - if the jews could manage to replace all the real documents with fakes in 1945 it's no surprise they did it here too seeing as how they had over 60 years to make it look so real. In fact, the very fact that it looks so real is PROOF they faked it all.

2) Most documents are bureaurocratic paperwork etc, some of which reinforces the modern historical view of the holocaust, but one page is found in really bad shape, printed on a dot-matrix printer, in English, with lots of misspellings and typos and says:

This iz Adolf Hitler - I order you NOT too kil any of are friends the Jews people - I like the Jews people and wud never kill them so don't kill them. Zeig Heil, your friend Adolf Hitler. PS I lik US and England people to they attaked us first that's not nice.

Revisionist/deniers' response - See? PROOF that exposes the holohoax for what it really was! What do you have to say now, anti scum!

[Stick to the Facts]

cerberus, i read you loud and clear, i just don't see how 1 holocaust 60 years ago is above all others, humans have always killed each other in organised ways, the WW2 holocaust is just the most biggest recent human holocaust and was carried out in modern industrialised ways, which is why its most applicable today, not because its the most terrible, and as said the facts arent fully facts yet. £1.25 million of tax payers money is being put in to get 6000 school students to visit auschwitz, why spend so much showing them past hateful things ?, that money could pay for a new curriculum at schools to be formed on their proper roots, one badly needed.

also, isnt this a bit hypocritical Millhouse ?, only people who follow the most popular & accepted line can speak about this ?.

So are you taking a thread that started with "did or did not the Holocaust happen", and taking it off course by saying "who cares if it happened people kill people, deal with it."

Because if you don't deny it happened but want to complain that it doesn't matter, you could just come out and say that directly. And you might do it in another thread where that might be relevant.

[Stick to the Facts]

Typical distortion of the truth. Criminy, don't Jews EVER stop lying? Several people have been arrested and tried for publicly questioning the holyhoax. Millions more do not speak publicly about it at all for fear of losing their jobs or even being arrested in some countries. New laws are going into effect soon for "hate speech" in the US. Groups like the ADL, the very powerful Jewish Supremacist anti-White hate group, get to decide which White man is a hater and which is not. Combined with GW Bush's elimination of habeas corpus and the illegal, unconstitutional, and Orwellian-named Patriot Act, criticizing Jews will become downright deadly in America the Free very soon. But this condition cannot last forever. You Jews have overreached again. If you don't reign in your grasping brethren soon there will be hell to pay. You will be thrown out of yet more countries. But look at the bright side: you'll have even more whining material for your holy books! More tall tales of the innocent Jews, persecuted for no reason at all by the evil Whites, wah, wah. Gimme a break.

I love the Jews and want to give them all big hugs and everything, but even so, it's nice to see that the Republican party is now in the cross hairs as the Jew loving party. We Democrats held that title for too long.

[Kriger]

When I read this a whole bunch of possible scenarios flew through my imagination. A couple of the better ones:

1) Most documents are bureaucratic paperwork, invoices, internal memos, etc - some do pertain to the concentration camps and reinforce the currently-held picture of the holocaust.

Revisionists'/deniers' response: Ah, you can't trust that 'evidence' - if the jews could manage to replace all the real documents with fakes in 1945 it's no surprise they did it here too seeing as how they had over 60 years to make it look so real. In fact, the very fact that it looks so real is PROOF they faked it all.

2) Most documents are bureaurocratic paperwork etc, some of which reinforces the modern historical view of the holocaust, but one page is found in really bad shape, printed on a dot-matrix printer, in English, with lots of misspellings and typos and says:

This iz Adolf Hitler - I order you NOT too kil any of are friends the Jews people - I like the Jews people and wud never kill them so don't kill them. Zeig Heil, your friend Adolf Hitler. PS I lik US and England people to they attaked us first that's not nice.

Revisionist/deniers' response - See? PROOF that exposes the holohoax for what it really was! What do you have to say now, anti scum!

As I said, speculation is the buzzword. There is something like eleven countries overseeing the unveiling of the evidence. It's not like it is some radical group from either side.

[Stick to the Facts]

As I said, speculation is the buzzword. There is something like eleven countries overseeing the unveiling of the evidence. It's not like it is some radical group from either side.

The sad thing is, no matter how many people are overseeing the big unveiling, the revisionists and deniers will NEVER be the tiniest bit drawn away from their fantasy-view of what happened because they will simply say "well, if the jews could replace all the real documents for real-looking fakes in 1945, no surprise they were able to corrupt these too."

[Kriger]

The sad thing is, no matter how many people are overseeing the big unveiling, the revisionists and deniers will NEVER be the tiniest bit drawn away from their fantasy-view of what happened because they will simply say "well, if the jews could replace all the real documents for real-looking fakes in 1945, no surprise they were able to corrupt these too."

It really does not make any difference to speculate biased perspectives concerning who will do or say what. The archives are being opened for all scholars and historians the world over. The evidence as documented as history occurred has yet to be viewed, assessed, and scrutinized by scientists and historians.

It is no longer a "closed" issue.

[Globus]

Damn you Globby

I wish that you would stop dominating the revisionism forum and leave only the ineffectual affirmers like, Trojan, Milhouse and Cerberus to struggle on. You are so brilliant and dazzling, please, please give someone else the chance to shine. I must interrupt this post for a possibly terminal bout of laughter, sorry about that!

PS I’m doing my mum’s hall tomorrow, can you tell where I can get some of the quick drying/cover it all, paint mentioned by your eyewitlesses?

So you don't like being humiliated. It's not my fault. Stop saying such silly things.

[Globus]

Is that all "facts" of history? Or is it just certain "facts" of history, eg. the "facts" surrounding the 1933-1945 era, & the impact on a certain influential religious group?

So all you have for your denial is idle speculation what might exist.

[Globus]

You're lucky that they let Globus back in or you'd be at the bottom of the barrel.

He doesn't have to be lucky, but it sure hasn't helped you eh!

[Stick to the Facts]

It really does not make any difference to speculate biased perspectives concerning who will do or say what. The archives are being opened for all scholars and historians the world over. The evidence as documented as history occurred has yet to be viewed, assessed, and scrutinized by scientists and historians.

It is no longer a "closed" issue.

My point is that as of right now, no matter what is found in there, there is absolutely nothing that would make the revisionists/deniers budge from their holdout views. They've already been presented with a mountain of evidence and eye witness testimony - 10,000,000 more pages of it won't make any difference whatsoever.

Even if they show a photo of Hitler dumping a can of Zyklon B into a gas chamber, while giving the thumbs up, they will just say it's a fake. Even if they show another photo of him standing outside the door to the chamber stuffed with corpses a few mins later.

Hell, even if they show a FILM of hitler dumping a can of Zyklon B, and show the Jews below succumbing to the gas, it still won't matter. Will it?

On the other hand, depending on what's found there I could be persuaded that the extent was not as great as has been claimed, provided the evidence looked solid.

Then again, I know that's not going to happen.

[Globus]

Well, it seems the world will have something other than the jewish version of facts and figures for the Holocaust.

Ah, and you know so much about what will be in these archives!

Some 30 to 50 million documents kept in a so-called Holocaust Archives stored in Bad Arolsen, Germany, have remained off-limits to historians and scholars for decades. It is considered to be the world's largest archive on the activities of the German government/military during World War II.

Utter nonsense. Copies of large numbers of documents from this archive have been shared with the US National Archives, the US Holocaust Museum and with Yad Vashem.

Speculation as to how this will affect the current "history" of the Holocaust abounds. Naturally, these speculations are divided into two camps: Those who claim it will uphold the current facts and stats, and those who claim it will shed more light on the whole truth of the matter, providing a more accurate portrayal of these years in human history.

Of course it will do both. What it will not do is support mindless Holocaust denial.

Here's what Yad Vashem said about the news.

Yad Vashem welcomed the decision in May by the 11-nation International Commission for the International Tracing Service (ITS) to open the archives at Bad Arolsen in Germany. According to experts at Yad Vashem, the decision will give the public and researchers access for the first time to some 50 million WWII-era files containing new information on forced labor and concentration camps, as well as names of Holocaust victims added to the archives since Yad Vashem received 20 million pages in the early 1960s, including most of those relating to Jews.

[Stick to the Facts]

Here's what Yad Vashem said about the news.

Quote:
Yad Vashem welcomed the decision in May by the 11-nation International Commission for the International Tracing Service (ITS) to open the archives at Bad Arolsen in Germany. According to experts at Yad Vashem, the decision will give the public and researchers access for the first time to some 50 million WWII-era files containing new information on forced labor and concentration camps, as well as names of Holocaust victims added to the archives since Yad Vashem received 20 million pages in the early 1960s, including most of those relating to Jews.

Denier/revisionist response: See? The Jews already know what's in it and it is in their favor. That PROVES it is full of fakes! If it had been against them those crafty jews would have destroyed it - and since they know what's in there, how do WE know they didn't manufacture it all?

Hey - for all we know there's ANOTHER big source of documents, but those documents prove the holocaust was a big hoax, so the jews destroyed it!

[Wrath of the Tyrant]

My knowledge on the subject of the Holocaust is basically a layman's, though my intuition tells me that the Holocaust happened in one form or another. I don't know enough to question the figure of 6 million, the existence and prominence of gas chambers, etc. Obviously, some Jews today, aka Z.O.G., have used this event--real or not, as it hardly seems to matter at this point--as a crutch for sympathy.

Two things about the Holocaust not accepted or known by mainstream society which I find interesting but have failed to investigate in-depth so far are as follows:

1) that the Jews the Germans killed were not real Jews (Sephardim), but impostor Jews (Ashkenazi)--apparently some Rabbi for the real Jews said that the Ashkenazi deserved "all the hell that Hitler gave them"--and

2) that the "final solution" was deporation, not extermination, of the Jews, and also that this was something actually fomented by Zionist groups in an effort to get the Jews back to their ancestral lands.

I would appreciate anybody who can produce or provide links to some relatively unbiased arguments with supporting documentation regarding these claims.

As for the "debate" in this topic so far, all I've seen is a lot of "LOL Jew", "LOL Nazi", and a whole lot of :deadhorse: . . . for the most part.

[Peiper]

http://www.irancartoon.com/120/holocaust/003A-chardFrance-(3).gif

[Commander]

Originally Posted by AngryAryan
Is that all "facts" of history? Or is it just certain "facts" of history, eg. the "facts" surrounding the 1933-1945 era, & the impact on a certain influential religious group?

So all you have for your denial is idle speculation what might exist.
I wasn't talking about me, or any possible input I may have. I think you misunderstood my question.

[Kriger]

Ah, and you know so much about what will be in these archives!



Utter nonsense. Copies of large numbers of documents from this archive have been shared with the US National Archives, the US Holocaust Museum and with Yad Vashem.



Of course it will do both. What it will not do is support mindless Holocaust denial.

Here's what Yad Vashem said about the news.

Like I said, all speculation is senseless. Until all evidence has been reviewed by scholars and historians the world over, you are speaking through your ass.

The issue is no longer a closed issue controlled by the work of jewish historians.

As for Yad Vasham, what do you expect him to say? "Yah, ve vorked the numbers hah little bit. Hit iss the vorst ting endured by hall mankind. Should never be forgotten. Should alvays be paid for. So vhat's a few numbers and embellishments, yah? Iss the only ting to keep from happening again. Vhat, vhat you say? Iss happening? Vhere? Oh, that iss war on terrorism, not genocide. Fool!"

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

I don't see how its relevant now btw. Even if it was a lie, it isn't this generation of jews that made it up. And I'm pretty substantially sure it isn't a lie.

And even if it did happen, and I know it did, a reasonable person won't use it for personal gain and its still unreasonable to do so.

[Captain Marinesko]

Yes that some jews were killed, but no eyewittnesses or forensic evidence that even come close that it was 6 million

But we have documentary evidence and witness evidence as well as demographics that shows that anywhere from 4.8-6 million people strangely disappeared somehow. Were you aware for that at least over 1 million of those deaths, there are detailed Einsatzgruppen reports that confirm the shootings? You didn't think it was all gas did you?

Besides, the real number is 11-12 million when you count the non-Jews.





You mean that the ashes they found measured up to 6 million bodies


It doesn't work that way in real life.

[eggheadbanga]

also, isnt this a bit hypocritical Millhouse ?, only people who follow the most popular & accepted line can speak about this ?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milhouse Van Houten
That would be sage advice to the revisionists, Nazi sympathisers and other fellow-travellers.

My point wasn't whether someone 'can' speak about something - since I believe in freedom of speech, of course anyone can say anything. It's whether certain factions or political positions 'should' speak about the Holocaust. Does this holocaust-denying lark actually work for those opposed to whatever it is they're opposed to? Evidence suggests not.

I can leave the rest of the explanation of this point to kane 123123 and Captain Marinesko, since they know the 'WN' world better than I do.

[Nemo]

The six million figure is far fetched, and is not at all practical to believe.

Also many jews like other Europeans died from disease, injuries from the war, and old age, and even with that into account it still would be no where near the bogus claims of the jews that 6 million perished, it is nothing but deliberate lies and speculation with no tangible proof that's all it is.

[Trojan]

The six million figure is far fetched, and is not at all practical to believe.

Also many jews like other Europeans died from disease, injuries from the war, and old age, and even with that into account it still would be no where near the bogus claims of the jews that 6 million perished, it is nothing but deliberate lies and speculation with no tangible proof that's all it is.

And this is true because you have proclaimed it thus?

[Captain Marinesko]

The six million figure is far fetched, and is not at all practical to believe.

Also many jews like other Europeans died from disease, injuries from the war, and old age, and even with that into account it still would be no where near the bogus claims of the jews that 6 million perished, it is nothing but deliberate lies and speculation with no tangible proof that's all it is.

Actually there is plenty of proof if you're willing to go and look for it. Something tell's me you won't though.

[Globus]

Like I said, all speculation is senseless. Until all evidence has been reviewed by scholars and historians the world over, you are speaking through your ass.

Actually, you don't know what you're talking about.

20 million of the 50 million pages of material have already been copied and in the possession of Yad Vashem and other archives for some time. These documents were culled and copied because they referenced the history of the period as it affected Jews.

Most of the information which will come to light will likely involve other aspects of Nazi Germany's treatment of human beings from all over Europe.

The issue is no longer a closed issue controlled by the work of jewish historians.

A crock!

You obviously don't have the first clue about who the historians of the Holocaust are.

As for Yad Vasham, what do you expect him to say? "Yah, ve vorked the numbers hah little bit.

That's not what he said. But then there is no accounting for massive self-delusion.

[Nemo]

And this is true because you have proclaimed it thus?

And it is true six million jews died in a so called holohoax just because the jews said they did.

[Captain Marinesko]

And it is true six million jews died in a so called holohoax just because the jews said they did.


If you bothered to look, you would see that the Holocaust was not "proclaimed" historical truth just because anyone said so, and certainly not only Jews.

[Kriger]

Actually, you don't know what you're talking about.

20 million of the 50 million pages of material have already been copied and in the possession of Yad Vashem and other archives for some time. These documents were culled and copied because they referenced the history of the period as it affected Jews.

Most of the information which will come to light will likely involve other aspects of Nazi Germany's treatment of human beings from all over Europe.



A crock!

You obviously don't have the first clue about who the historians of the Holocaust are.



That's not what he said. But then there is no accounting for massive self-delusion.

Philip Friedman, a jewish survivor from Poland, began it all. From what I understand, very little was added to his works.

The rest of it (Yad Vashem) obviously went over your head. It is called sarcastic humor. I never said Yad Vashem said this. I jst said what do you expect Yad Vashem to say?

[Globus]

Philip Friedman, a jewish survivor from Poland, began it all. From what I understand, very little was added to his works.

LOL!

The rest of it (Yad Vashem) obviously went over your head. It is called sarcastic humor. I never said Yad Vashem said this. I jst said what do you expect Yad Vashem to say?

I caught your attempt at humor. But you don't have the first clue about the historiography of the Holocaust.

[Captain Marinesko]

Philip Friedman, a jewish survivor from Poland, began it all. From what I understand, very little was added to his works.



Damn, that guy had a LOT of work to do!

[Kriger]

Damn, that guy had a LOT of work to do!

Yes, he did do a lot of work. Amazingly so:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404E3D8173BF932A25752C0A967948260

Take particular notice of the statement: "For, despite the holocaust's current fashionableness as a subject for philosophizing, universalizing, and vaporizing, there has been only a modest accretion of historical knowledge, in the two decades since Friedman died, about the murder of the European jews."

[eggheadbanga]

Yes, he did do a lot of work. Amazingly so:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404E3D8173BF932A25752C0A967948260

Take particular notice of the statement: "For, despite the holocaust's current fashionableness as a subject for philosophizing, universalizing, and vaporizing, there has been only a modest accretion of historical knowledge, in the two decades since Friedman died, about the murder of the European jews."


This was from a quarter of a century ago.

[Kriger]

This was from a quarter of a century ago.

It describes the basis of the holocaust "history".

[eggheadbanga]

It describes the basis of the holocaust "history".

Let's see you identify the historiography of the Holocaust, then. Name authors who've written monographs or major articles on the following subjects. Generalists like Hilberg don't count. Languages: English and German, which are the two definitive languages for the field.

Command and Control

Hitler and the decision for the Final Solution
Decision-Making Process in general
Himmler
RSHA
IV B 4 and Eichmann
Gestapo
SD
Amt VI
Kripo
IKL
WVHA
Waffen-SS
HSSPFs
Foreign Office

General Issues

Overall Death Toll
Jewish Forced Labour
Transports and railways
Social Psychology and Sociology of Perpetrators

Germany and Austria

Mischlinge
Expropriation of Jewish Property
Hamburg
Berlin
Jews in hiding
‘Fabrik-Aktion’
Düsseldorf Gestapo (min. 3 authors)
Vienna Gestapo
Austria
German public opinion and knowledge of the Holocaust

Poland

Overall death toll
Lublin district
Galicia district
Warsaw ghetto
Warthegau/Lodz ghetto
Ostoberschlesien
Zichenau district
Belzec
Sobibor
Aktion Reinhard Camps
Aid to Jews in Hiding from Poles
Polish-Jewish relations in war
Polish underground press
Polish government-in-exile
Zamosc resettlement project
German Police in Poland (other than Browning-Goldhagen)
Organisation Schmelt
Jewish Forced Labour in Generalgouvernement
German Occupation Policy in general
Soviet takeover of Eastern Poland

The North-West-Southwest Half-Circle

Norway
Denmark
Netherlands
Belgium
France
Italy
Yugoslavia
Greece
Bulgaria
Romania
Hungary
Slovakia
Protectorate

USSR

Commissar Order
‘Hunger Plan’
Generalplan Ost
Einsatzgruppen Planning, Orders and overviews
Einsatzgruppe A
Einsatzgruppe B
Einsatzgruppe C
Einsatzgruppe D
Lithuania
Latvia
Riga ghetto/KL Riga
Estonia
Belorussia
Ukraine
Crimea
Caucasus
Russia
Police Battalions (3 authors other than Browning-Goldhagen)
Gendarmerie
Schutzmannschaften
Kommandostab Reichsführer-SS
Wehrmacht involvment
Mogilev death camp
Soviet evacuation policy
Socioeconomic and demographic profile of Soviet Jews
Soviet Jewish partisans

Concentration Camps

Auschwitz (min.8)
Majdanek
Stutthof
Gross-Rosen
Sachsenhausen
Ravensbrück
Buchenwald
Dora-Mittelbau
Dachau
Flossenbürg
Belsen
Neuengamme
Natzweiler
Herzogenbosch
Sociology of Concentration Camps
Concentration Camp Guards and Staff

Reactions and Aftermath

Illegal Immigration to Palestine during war
Reactions of Yishuv
General Works on Reactions
US knowledge and reactions
British knowledge and reactions
Possibility of Rescue
DPs
Jewish Demography
ICRC
Swedish reactions
Turkish reactions
Swiss reactions

Trials

Nuremberg
US Dachau trials program
Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial
West German trials in general
Befehlsnotstand
Eichmann trial
Soviet trials

Miscellanea

Debunking the Soap Myth
Ilse Koch

:)

[Kriger]

What for?

Did any of the later historians alter Freidman's work drastically? If so, state which historian and how the history was altered by said historian. And where did they get their information, other than either directly or indirectly from Yad Vashem?

I have provided the basis for holocaust history. Philip Friedman. I have not made any other claims than that. Do you dispute this? Do you call the New York Times a liar?

[eggheadbanga]

What for?

So that you can prove you know what the hell you are talking about.

Did any of the later historians alter Freidman's work drastically?

Quite a bit, yes.

If so, state which historian

all of them. Now name some, please.

and how the history was altered by said historian.

what is the history now, Shirt?

And where did they get their information, other than either directly or indirectly from Yad Vashem?

:rofl: from NARA, the Bundesarchiv and many other archives, Shirt. YV is great if you're in Israel, but most historians of the Holocaust don't live there.

I have provided the basis for holocaust history. Philip Friedman. I have not made any other claims than that.

The only work by Friedman that might be regarded as a 'basis for Holocaust history' was an article he wrote for the Polish Main Commission reports German Crimes in Poland, in 1946. He wrote about all the death-camps, the ghettoisation and so forth in a couple of dozen pages, and concluded with an estimatethat 3 million Polish Jews had died. That is about it, frankly. Not a huge claim to fame, nor a great historiographical achievement, compared to Poliakov, Reitlinger or Hilberg.

Do you dispute this?

Yes.

Do you call the New York Times a liar?

Why not? They employed Judith Miller, didn't they?

But in practice, I'd say that the NYT reviewer, Lucy Dawidowicz, was simply wrong on this point. When you realise that Dawidowicz hated Raul Hilberg, wasn't a professional historian and made numerous mistakes in her own book published in 1976, then you might appreciate that her word cannot be taken on trust.

[calvin]

Poliakov, Reitlinger or Hilberg

One third of your holy trinity was crucified by Douglas Christie years ago.

"I still don’t quite understand the import of your question,. said Hilberg.
.Are you referring to a German, or a post-war..

I don.t care who.German, post-war, Allied, Soviet.any source at
all. Name one, said Christie.
.
To prove what?,. asked Hilberg.

To conclude that they have physically seen a gas chamber. One scientific
report, repeated Christie.

.I am really at a loss. I am very seldom at such a loss, but ... [...]

Judge Locke interrupted: .Doctor ... do you know of such a report?.

No,. replied Hilberg"

[Globus]

One third of your holy trinity was crucified by Douglas Christie years ago.

Only to someone completely ignorant of history and gullible enough to believe in Jew hating deniers.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

The holocaust definately happened in its basic in that jews definately were definately targeted by the nazi regime and definately murdered in the miliions. Without understanding this fact, history doesn't make sense. Jews pushed for immigration in America so that another Hitler couldn't rise, a parnoid decision, but a historically understandable one. You can't really explain this behavior if you fail to acknolwedge the holocaust. People who do this give dumb answers like its just the ways jews are genetically programmed. NO. Jews were pro-white before Hitler in America. They were OWNING slaves. They were major slave dealers. Jews clearly turned anti-white because they were scared of something. As this fear subsides, the black-jewish alliance is falling apart.

[Daniel Shays]

For voting purposes, this is the basic holocaust story: Members of the German government between 1939-1945 planned, organized, intended and attempted to kill every jew in territory under their control; the number of jews killed was between 4 and 6 million; the majority of jews who were killed died in gas chambers employing Zyklon-B gas. Wealthy Jews were protected by the Nazis throughout Europe, notably in Hungary where many cooperated. Jewish/German couples were not broken up either and many hundred thousands of Jews emigrated from [Greater] Germany in time to escape the 'caust. I don't 'deny' that many Jews died in camps but I reject the Holocaust narrative as it is taught in the western world. The teaching of the camps was more balanced in the Soviet Bloc nations where Communist and Slavic victims received attention, not the cult used to justify the existence of Israel.

[Kolchab]

Jews were deported by the Nazis, with Polish and other local help, to the east to ghettos and work camps.

And some died from old age and disease during that time. Or were caught as partisans and were shot. Or lost their lifes fighting on the Soviet side.

There was no Holocaust as we are told now by the Jews, with 6 million dead, mostly systematically killed in gas chambers.

Kolchab

[Captain Marinesko]

Jews were deported by the Nazis, with Polish and other local help, to the east to ghettos and work camps.

And some died from old age and disease during that time. Or were caught as partisans and were shot. Or lost their lifes fighting on the Soviet side.

There was no Holocaust as we are told now by the Jews, with 6 million dead, mostly systematically killed in gas chambers.

Kolchab

Um. Wrong. Totally. Maybe you should try reading books or something.

[Vasily Zaitsev]

The holocaust definately happened in its basic in that jews definately were definately targeted by the nazi regime and definately murdered in the miliions. Without understanding this fact, history doesn't make sense. Jews pushed for immigration in America so that another Hitler couldn't rise, a parnoid decision, but a historically understandable one. You can't really explain this behavior if you fail to acknolwedge the holocaust. People who do this give dumb answers like its just the ways jews are genetically programmed. NO. Jews were pro-white before Hitler in America. They were OWNING slaves. They were major slave dealers. Jews clearly turned anti-white because they were scared of something. As this fear subsides, the black-jewish alliance is falling apart.

Slaving does not a make a person pro-white. Just pro-pre-capitalist modes of production. I would hope that a progressive all-white nation would not be a slave-holding one.

The "genetic programming" argument is a sticky one. Have you read Kevin MacDonald's work on Jewish issues? He, as an evolutionary psychologist, forwards this idea to a certain extent. But he does so in a factual, measured, responsible fashion. It is messageboard warriors, and not the good doctor, who argue that Jews are a monolithic destroyer hive-mind.

The fact that the Jewish establishment argued for more immigration does not necessarily mean the orthodox Holocaust narrative is true. It only means that Jews internationally reacted negatively to Nazi persecution. It does not establish the extent nor the details of said mistreatment. History still makes sense in that light.

[ogenoct]

The teaching of the camps was more balanced in the Soviet Bloc nations where Communist and Slavic victims received attention, not the cult used to justify the existence of Israel.

Israel does not need a need a "cult" to justify its existence. Where did you hear that?

Constantin

[Commander]

Israel does not need a need a "cult" to justify its existence. Where did you hear that?

Constantin

If Israel does not need the hollowcost cult, why are they opening hollowcost museums/memorials like Dunkin' Donuts franchises every 5 minutes? Why are all these propaganda movies / t.v. specials made, the History Channel & it's lies, on & on, ......da 6 million..........oye vey

.........:jew: :jew: :jew:

[ogenoct]

If Israel does not need the hollowcost cult, why are they opening hollowcost museums/memorials like Dunkin' Donuts franchises every 5 minutes? Why are all these propaganda movies / t.v. specials made, the History Channel & it's lies, on & on, ......da 6 million..........oye vey

.........:jew: :jew: :jew:

Most of these Holocaust memorials are not in Israel. The History Channel is not an Israeli TV channel. Your point is meaningless.

Constantin

[Commander]

Most of these Holocaust memorials are not in Israel. The History Channel is not an Israeli TV channel. Your point is meaningless.

Constantin
Ha, just admit it, I have you trapped in a corner. You have no way out but to lie & avoid the issue.

[ogenoct]

Ha, just admit it, I have you trapped in a corner. You have no way out but to lie & avoid the issue.

How could you possibly have trapped me if you did not make a single argument in favor of your case? You must be as delusional as the three morons in your avatar.

Constantin

[Commander]

How could you possibly have trapped me if you did not make a single argument in favor of your case? You must be as delusional as the three morons in your avatar.

Constantin
You call me delusional, you, the guy who says "The holocaust" is not used as propoganda for the creation of & continued financial support [extortion] for Israel ?

Maybe we should have another poll?

Do you think Jews use "The Holocaust" to hang over the gentile's heads & extort money + guilt from them?

1 - yes

2 -no

[ogenoct]

You call me delusional, you, the guy who says "The holocaust" is not used as propoganda for the creation of & continued financial support [extortion] for Israel ?

Again, where is your evidence?

Constantin

[Burrhus]

I couldn't possibly care less
C. Montgomery Burns, Captain Rummor, Cernobog, cowcube, Daedalus, Der Sozialist, Feudal Socialist, Geist, Helios Panoptes, MrRS, ogenoct, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Ritter, SlovenianNationalist, Vindex

To the above: I am curious about the implication of your response. I would appreciate it if you would respond to one of the two questions below. Unless you wish to plead complete ignorance of the holocaust story.

Is it your position that you couldn't possibly care less but you believe or suspect that holocaust story is true? That seems to imply that you are indifferent to the intentional murder of 6 million innocent people.

Or is it your position that you couldn't care less but you believe or suspect that the holocaust story is false? That seems to imply that you are indifferent to the shame and guilt that have been assigned to the German people who are guilty of no crime, the massive undeserved transfers of wealth from Germany and other Western nations to the jews, and to the deformation in general of Western cultures resulting from jewish propaganda supported by a false holocaust story.

In either case, you find yourself in a difficult moral dilemma: indifferent to the death of 6 million innocent people or indifferent to the consequences of a lie in the degradation of the West.

Please understand that it was not me who put you into this dilemma. It was Charles Montgomery Burns who abused his power as moderator by adding a morally trivial third option to the poll against my wish. If you find yourself in an uncomfortable position as a result of having chosen the third option, please direct your ire to CMB.

[Captain Marinesko]

Is it your position that you couldn't possibly care less but you believe or suspect that holocaust story is true? That seems to imply that you are indifferent to the intentional murder of 6 million innocent people.

Ahem, 11-12 million people. For some reason the Jew-worshippers always forget the equal or greater number of non-Jews that died in the Holocaust.


That seems to imply that you are indifferent to the shame and guilt that have been assigned to the German people who are guilty of no crime,

I don't think that Germans today are considered guilty for the Holocaust or punished because of it. If some Germans insist on wallowing in guilt and pity then that is their problem.


the massive undeserved transfers of wealth from Germany and other Western nations to the jews,

The DDR never paid a single Mark to the Jews.



and to the deformation in general of Western cultures resulting from jewish propaganda supported by a false holocaust story.

I'd LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE to hear the connection between the Holocaust and the degeneration of Western culture. Please share with us!


In either case, you find yourself in a difficult moral dilemma: indifferent to the death of 6 million innocent people or indifferent to the consequences of a lie in the degradation of the West.

Are you indifferent to the 5-6 million white men and women who died in the Holocaust, or the many more that died because of Nazi aggression?

[Commander]

Again, where is your evidence?

Constantin
I will respond one last time to your arrogant idiotic questions. In the future if you want to defend your people [which is understandable] I suggest you do a better job.

Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.
This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

[...]

And now Israel wants more. In a meeting at the White House late last month, Israeli officials made a pitch for $4 billion in additional military aid to defray the rising costs of dealing with the intifada and suicide bombings. They also asked for more than $8 billion in loan guarantees to help the country's recession-bound economy.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

[Globus]

Jews were deported by the Nazis, with Polish and other local help, to the east to ghettos and work camps.

No, some Jews were deported to ghettos, and then to death camps when the ghettos were liquidated. Some Jews were deported directly to death camps. About 2.7 million Jews fall into this category. History has proven what happened to them. Deniers have not a shred of evidence to indicate they went anywhere else.

And some died from old age and disease during that time. Or were caught as partisans and were shot. Or lost their lifes fighting on the Soviet side.

Many died of disease and starvation caused by Nazi policy. Between 1 and 1.5 million were shot in Russia, men, women and children, not because they were partisans, but because they were Jews.

[quote[There was no Holocaust as we are told now by the Jews,[/quote]

The Holocaust that you are other silly fools deny is not told by Jews, but by historians and we know very well what happened.

[cerberus]

Iron L.Wealthy Jews were protected by the Nazis throughout Europe, notably in Hungary where many cooperated.
The goverment there didn't go for anti jewish laws - when they Nazis occupied the country and Arrow Cross came into its own , things changed.
Rich Jews - the Nazis always had an eye to who might be useful to them but money was not enough to save people - money and property could and was taken - the Nazis didn't want and din't mind killing the Jews , and likewise they had no objection to taking their wealth and property - rich or poor - they held no objection to theft - minor or grand.
KolchabJews were deported by the Nazis, with Polish and other local help, to the east to ghettos and work camps.


And where did the people from the Warsaw and Lodz ghettos go , evacuated to where ?
So you have no problem with slave labour ?

And some died from old age and disease during that time. Or were caught as partisans and were shot. Or lost their lifes fighting on the Soviet side.
Some people will alwys die from old age and disease - quantify "some" ?
"Some" , is this as opposed to "many" ?
If "some" - means "a few" - why the mass creamation and "morgue" buildings at Auschwitz ?
Perhaps you might explain this investment to accomadate "some", surely "some" would hardly cause a bump in the grand scheme of things ?
Fighting on the Soviet side - old men , old women and children - a really usefl "partisan force" , one mother Russia must have been proud of and one which must have made the Wehrmacht quake with fear.
How many were "caught" ?
Explain Himmler's note "Jews to be shot as partisans" - a note made prior to Barbarossa.
There was no Holocaust as we are told now by the Jews, with 6 million dead, mostly systematically killed in gas chambers.

So explain " some" in terms of the nearly 6 million who cannot be found , to lose 1,000,000 might be described as careles , to lose 6,000,000 - that is totallt irresponsible !:rofl:

Captain M.Um. Wrong. Totally. Maybe you should try reading books or something.
Books tend to provide information which is difficult to explain away , being based on fact they also provide proof of what actually took place - the non fiction ones at least.
Fictional books on the other hand tend to provide a picture of what we think took place - or what might wnat to be able to prove took place.
Noontide and castle Books are generally excellent purveyors of fictional history, well written but none the less fictional .
Hans Christian Anderson - less fictional than that sold by "Castle" and "Noontide."

[Globus]

To the above: I am curious about the implication of your response. I would appreciate it if you would respond to one of the two questions below. Unless you wish to plead complete ignorance of the holocaust story.

Is it your position that you couldn't possibly care less but you believe or suspect that holocaust story is true? That seems to imply that you are indifferent to the intentional murder of 6 million innocent people.

Or is it your position that you couldn't care less but you believe or suspect that the holocaust story is false? That seems to imply that you are indifferent to the shame and guilt that have been assigned to the German people who are guilty of no crime,

The Germans feel no shame or guilt. That is simply the whine of lovers of the Nazi regime, usually outside of Germany, who know nothing about Germany today, and wish to believe that if only the people would throw off this imaginary yoke they too would deny the obvious crimes of an earlier generation and rehabilitate the political philosophy they secretly love.

Ain't gonna happen, of course.

the massive undeserved transfers of wealth from Germany and other Western nations to the jews,

Nothing undeserved about it. Apparently you think Nazis should be able to steal people's wealth, their homes, kill millions, and pay no penalty. German has never felt that way. Just as deserved is the money paid by Germany and German companies to non-Jewish slave laborers, primarily in Eastern Europe. I note you express no outrage about that, focuing only on Jews, since your hatred of them is what motivates you to deny proven history.

[snip remaining antisemitic screed]

[Globus]

I will respond one last time to your arrogant idiotic questions. In the future if you want to defend your people [which is understandable] I suggest you do a better job.



Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.
This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

Those numbers are misleading. They include loan guarantees, which actually cost us nothing unless loans are defaulted, which they never have been, and they are adjusted for current dollars, which is simply a way to make the number look larger.

But you didn't post this from a little later in the article.

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.

And of course this doesn't include aid to other Middle Eastern Arab nations.

It seems you like to cherry pick your information to support your distorted view of the world.

[Commander]

It seems you like to cherry pick your information to support your distorted view of the world.

Yes, Globby, you and ogenoct are correct, Israel does not recieve any more money in aide than any other country. Israel in fact only takes a few shekels [a small token amount] from Germany, Swiss bankers, other European countries, & the U.S., to make the goyim feel good about themselves. This is done out of common courtesy. :jam: :nuts: :hugs:

[ogenoct]

I will respond one last time to your arrogant idiotic questions. In the future if you want to defend your people [which is understandable] I suggest you do a better job.



http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

My people are the European people. You still have not provided any evidence for your assertion that Israel bases its right of existence on the Holocaust. You are obviously not very bright. The links you now give have nothing to do with your original argument.

Constantin

[Globus]

Yes, Globby, you and ogenoct are correct, Israel does not recieve any more money in aide than any other country. Israel in fact only takes a few shekels [a small token amount] from Germany, Swiss bankers, other European countries, & the U.S., to make the goyim feel good about themselves. This is done out of common courtesy. :jam: :nuts: :hugs:

So you don't really have anything to say to the fact that Egypt alone, and Middle Eastern Arab countries collectively, get aid comparable to that of Israel because that would cause you to think and realize how distorted you view of reality is.

[Basil Fawlty]

My people are the European people. You still have not provided any evidence for your assertion that Israel bases its right of existence on the Holocaust. You are obviously not very bright. The links you now give have nothing to do with your original argument.

ConstantinIn 1951 the Knesset declared 27th Nisan as Yom ha-Shoah, the date chosen as being close to the date of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising as possible. The head of the parliamentary committee tasked with orgainsing this was a Rabbi Norrock who said, "Because of the death of the 6 million we have been privileged to have this state"

source - Friedlander, Saul 'The Shoah in Present Historical Consciousness' in Morgan, Michael L. A Holocaust Reader: Responses to the Nazi Extermination OUP, 2001: 276 - 290

[ogenoct]

The head of the parliamentary committee tasked with orgainsing this was a Rabbi Norrock who said, "Because of the death of the 6 million we have been privileged to have this state"

That is the opinion of one Jew. Besides, every nation needs a founding myth. Why not the Holocaust for the Jewish people? The question, though, is: Why do certain people here believe that the Holocaust is used to JUSTIFY the existence of Israel? I still do not see this.

Constantin

[Basil Fawlty]

That is the opinion of one Jew.No, its the opinion of the head of the relevant Knesset Sub-Committee.
Besides, every nation needs a founding myth. Why not the Holocaust for the Jewish people?Yes, I agree, but you seemed to be rejecting that earlier.
The question, though, is: Why do certain people here believe that the Holocaust is used to JUSTIFY the existence of Israel? I still do not see this.Because that is partly the function of foundational myths.

[Globus]

No, its the opinion of the head of the relevant Knesset Sub-Committee.

Which does not dispute the fact that it is the view of one person. But trying to attribute the views of one to the entire group is a feature of antisemitism.

[ogenoct]

No, its the opinion of the head of the relevant Knesset Sub-Committee.

Why? Is he not ONE JEW?

Yes, I agree, but you seemed to be rejecting that earlier.

I never rejected it. I only rejected the assertion that Israel continues to justify its existence because of the Holocaust.

Because that is partly the function of foundational myths.

So, you are saying that Greece today justifies its existence because of Thermopylae?

Constantin

[Basil Fawlty]

Why? Is he not ONE JEW?No, that is not a private opinion of one Jew, it is the opinion of the head of a parliamentary sub-committee.
I never rejected it. I only rejected the assertion that Israel continues to justify its existence because of the Holocaust.Of course it does, have you not been listening to B. Netanyahu recently?
So, you are saying that Greece today justifies its existence because of Thermopylae?There is no state existing that can refer itself to Thermopylae. Israel, which does exist, was founded out of the "ashes of the Holocaust" and Yom ha-Shoah is a state ocassion.

[ogenoct]

No, that is not a private opinion of one Jew, it is the opinion of the head of a parliamentary sub-committee.

Who still is ONE JEW. I never said that it was merely "a private opinion."

Of course it does, have you not been listening to B. Netanyahu recently?

No, I have not. What did he say?

There is no state existing that can refer itself to Thermopylae.

Greece can and does.

Israel, which does exist, was founded out of the "ashes of the Holocaust" and Yom ha-Shoah is a state ocassion.

There is a big difference between being founded on the Holocaust and justifying its existence because of it. Assuming that most Israelis believe the Holocaust took place, it is only natural that Israel commemorates it. After all, Israel is a racial state and six million of its race supposedly perished in the Holocaust. However, it is quite clear that Israel always JUSTIFIED its existence based on the fact that the country is situated on ancient Biblical land, promised to the Jews by Yahweh thousands of years ago.

Constantin

[Globus]

No, that is not a private opinion of one Jew, it is the opinion of the head of a parliamentary sub-committee.


And of course, the head of a sub-committe is one person. He was not speaking the position of a committee.


Basil is quickly becoming famous for his creative ability to delude himself.

[Basil Fawlty]

Who still is ONE JEW. I never said that it was merely "a private opinion."One Jew's opinion is a private opinion. This is clearly the opinion of someone speaking in an official capacity; head of a sub-committee.
No, I have not. What did he say?Much along the lines of the distinguished Rabbi above.
Greece can and does.Only in the same way as the state here ocassionally waxes about the Fianna and uses some of the iconograpy of those times, but it is not based on it in anyway whatsoever.
There is a big difference between being founded on the Holocaust and justifying its existence because of it.Explain it to me so. Explain how a founding myth is not also at the same time a justification. Assuming that most Israelis believe the Holocaust took place, it is only natural that Israel commemorates it.Yes. After all, Israel is a racial state and six million of its race supposedly perished in the Holocaust.Careful, Globus will report you to the ADL for anti-semitism.
However, it is quite clear that Israel always JUSTIFIED its existence based on the fact that the country is situated on ancient Biblical land, promised to the Jews by Yahweh thousands of years ago.No, because that could not appeal to atheist Jews. Most of the early Zionists were not swayed or motivated by such arguments. Equally, there are religious Jews who say the opposite, that scripture forbids the establishment of a Jewish state, post-diaspora.

[Burrhus]

The Germans feel no shame or guilt. That is simply the whine of lovers of the Nazi regime, usually outside of Germany, who know nothing about Germany today, and wish to believe that if only the people would throw off this imaginary yoke they too would deny the obvious crimes of an earlier generation and rehabilitate the political philosophy they secretly love.

Ain't gonna happen, of course.



Nothing undeserved about it. Apparently you think Nazis should be able to steal people's wealth, their homes, kill millions, and pay no penalty. German has never felt that way. Just as deserved is the money paid by Germany and German companies to non-Jewish slave laborers, primarily in Eastern Europe. I note you express no outrage about that, focuing only on Jews, since your hatred of them is what motivates you to deny proven history.

[snip remaining antisemitic screed]

First, you voted true in the poll. This question was addressed to those who chose "I couldn't possibly care less". They were conditional questions and the conditions do not apply to you. Jeez, why am I responding to you. Excuse me while I slap myself........Whap!!!!.....Ah, that's better.

Your usual dishonest rhetoric, putting words in other's mouths. I do not hate jews. I don't think that anyone "should be able to steal people's wealth, their homes, kill millions, and pay no penalty."

[Globus]

One Jew's opinion is a private opinion. This is clearly the opinion of someone speaking in an official capacity; head of a sub-committee.

And Basil continues his distortion, and petty argumenation.

The statement was that the views noted were the views of one man. Basil immediately distorted that to a "private" versus "public" distinction so he could attribute the views of one Jew to all Jews.

When one sees that Basil is only able to engage in nitpicking, hairsplitting, pedantic argumentation in defense of any outrageous remark he makes, it is understandable why he avoids substantive debate on his Holocaust denial.

[Globus]

The Germans feel no shame or guilt. That is simply the whine of lovers of the Nazi regime, usually outside of Germany, who know nothing about Germany today, and wish to believe that if only the people would throw off this imaginary yoke they too would deny the obvious crimes of an earlier generation and rehabilitate the political philosophy they secretly love.

Ain't gonna happen, of course.

Nothing undeserved about it. Apparently you think Nazis should be able to steal people's wealth, their homes, kill millions, and pay no penalty. German has never felt that way. Just as deserved is the money paid by Germany and German companies to non-Jewish slave laborers, primarily in Eastern Europe. I note you express no outrage about that, focuing only on Jews, since your hatred of them is what motivates you to deny proven history.

[snip remaining antisemitic screed]

First, you voted true in the poll.

First falsehood!

This question was addressed to those who chose "I couldn't possibly care less". They were conditional questions and the conditions do not apply to you. Jeez, why am I responding to you. Excuse me while I slap myself........Whap!!!!.....Ah, that's better.

I'm afraid you need to slap yourself much harder!

Your usual dishonest rhetoric,

Says the purveyor of falsehood and dishonesty.

[ogenoct]

If you find yourself in an uncomfortable position as a result of having chosen the third option, please direct your ire to CMB.

I do not find myself in "an uncomfortable position." I chose the third option because the Jews are not my people, and more of my people died in World War II than Jews (if the Holocaust happened or not).

Constantin

[Commander]

So you don't really have anything to say to the fact that Egypt alone, and Middle Eastern Arab countries collectively, get aid comparable to that of Israel because that would cause you to think and realize how distorted you view of reality is.

More of "my" distorted reality, Mr. Globus. Notice the url of the link, another "Holocaust denier" site?

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,35850,00.gif

----------------------------------

another interesting link

http://arral.org/news/wow/saved_12158.html

But no one in the executive branch mentions that of the few remaining U.S. aid recipients worldwide, all of the others are developing nations which either make their military bases available to the U.S., are key members of international alliances in which the U.S. participates, or have suffered some crippling blow of nature to their abilities to feed their people such as earthquakes, floods or droughts.

Israel, whose troubles arise solely from its unwillingness to give back land it seized in the 1967 war in return for peace with its neighbors, does not fit those criteria. In fact, Israel's 1995 per capita gross domestic product was $15,800. That put it below Britain at $19,500 and Italy at $18,700 and just above Ireland at $15,400 and Spain at $14,300.

The lobby that Israel and its supporters have built in the United States to make all this aid happen, and to ban discussion of it from the national dialogue, goes far beyond AIPAC, with its $15 million budget, its 150 employees, and its five or six registered lobbyists who manage to visit every member of Congress individually once or twice a year.

AIPAC, in turn, can draw upon the resources of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, a roof group set up solely to coordinate the efforts of some 52 national Jewish organizations on behalf of Israel.

Among them are Hadassah, the Zionist women's organization, which organizes a steady stream of American Jewish visitors to Israel; the American Jewish Congress, which mobilizes support for Israel among members of the traditionally left-of-center Jewish mainstream; and the American Jewish Committee, which plays the same role within the growing middle-of-the-road and right-of-center Jewish community. The American Jewish Committee also publishes Commentary,one of the Israel lobby's principal national publications.

Perhaps the most controversial of these groups is B'nai B'rith's Anti-Defamation League. Its original highly commendable purpose was to protect the civil rights of American Jews. Over the past generation, however, the ADL has regressed into a conspiratorial and, with a $45 million budget, extremely well-funded hate group.

[Globus]

More of "my" distorted reality, Mr. Globus.

Of course it is!

The fact is that Egypt has had the same order of magnitude of aid as Israel.

You've lost touch with the real world, "AngryAryan".

[Commander]

Of course it is!

The fact is that Egypt has had the same order of magnitude of aid as Israel.

You've lost touch with the real world, "AngryAryan".
Please read updated post #228, which I'm sure you are doing now, with attention to link #2 content.

[Globus]

Please read updated post #228, which I'm sure you are doing now, with attention to link #2 content.

There is nothing new there.

And the facts of Egyptian aid are well known, and have been for some time.

Your problem is with Jews, and with facts.

[Burrhus]

Burrhus: First, you voted true in the poll.

First falsehood!

My error. I apologize. Am I to infer from your failure to vote true that you believe the holocaust story is false or that you have no opinion?

[Globus]

My error. I apologize. Am I to infer from your failure to vote true that you believe the holocaust story is false or that you have no opinion?

I don't have the slightest interest in what someone like you infer, believe, or falsely state. Other than to expose it for what it is.

[calvin]

The poll results are a fitting tribute to your prowess in the field of refutation.

[Globus]

The poll results are a fitting tribute to your prowess in the field of refutation.

Of course the poll results have no meaning at all with respect to proven history.

[Jimbo Gomez]

The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.
Adolf Hitler

;)

[Berianidze]

I could care less. What about the numerous German communists/socialists who suffered at the hands of the Hitlerites? Those are the ones I am concerned about. Long Live Ernst Thallman...a true German patriot and socialist :D

[Trojan]

Interesting that the Phora votes about 2-1 against the Holocaust, yet the revisionists are crying over one moderator. There are many moderators, et al. that voted against or indifferent to the Holocaust.

[calvin]

“Some” revisionists are “crying” about moderation. Most of what you describe as “revisionists” are amateurs who are up against professional tenured debunkers; I think it’s understandable that they are unsettled by the prospect of a moderator who seems to be hostile to their position. I personally don’t see any significant bias in the moderation of this forum.

Interesting that the Phora votes about 2-1 against the Holocaust, yet the revisionists are crying over one moderator

That, incidentally, is a bit like saying that the foot soldiers are complaining about the generals despite the fact that they out number the generals by thousands to one.

[Burrhus]

[QUOTE=calvin I personally don’t see any significant bias in the moderation of this forum.[/QUOTE]

Given that you don't see the posts that are deleted, the presence or absence of bias would be difficult to ascertain.

[calvin]

That, in fact, is a fair point.

[cerberus]

calvinThe poll results are a fitting tribute to your prowess in the field of refutation
You can't really be serious , can you ?
Given that you don't see the posts that are deleted, the presence or absence of bias would be difficult to ascertain.
if you have comments to make on this subject an area has been provided for them - see phora rules for reason why posts have been deleted - content as per the views of an individual are not an issue taken into consideration.
Now gents please keep on subject.
Thanks.

PS If you could still see them after they were deleted , there would be little point in deleting them ?:whip:

[Globus]

Given that you don't see the posts that are deleted, the presence or absence of bias would be difficult to ascertain.


And yet you claim to have and continue whining about it.

[Kriger]

The Jewish Holocaust story is exaggerated.

[Burrhus]

The Jewish Holocaust story is exaggerated.

I believe that it might be more accurate to say that the jewish holocaust story contains exaggerations. It also contains many falsehoods that are not exaggerations. To say simply that it is exaggerated implies that it is basically true but somewhat distorted. I don't believe that that is the case.

Nearly every nation and ethnic group in Europe suffered during WWII. Approximately 50,000,000 people died worldwide, some of them jews--perhaps 300,000-500,000, at most 1% of the total. What is exaggerated in the holocaust story is the number of jewish deaths as being 5-6 million and the qualitative nature of their suffering compared to non-jews.

To this exaggeration in the story however must be added the lies contained in it. Those lies include the assertion that there was a planned attempt on the part of the German government to kill all or most of the jews in Europe, that sadistic brutality was inflicted on the jews beyond what is normal in wartime, that millions of jews were killed by Zyklon-B gas in gas chambers designed for that purpose and that in some quasi-mystical manner the suffering of the jews was unique amidst the wide-spread suffering of all the other peoples caught up in the maelstrom of war.

These elements in the holocaust story are not exaggerations...they are falsehoods, lies. There was no plan, no systematic brutality, no gas chambers and nothing unique about the real suffering and deaths of the jews compared to the real suffering and deaths of the other peoples affected by the war.

Even a cursory examination of jewish history (and present events) will reveal the fact that this combination of exaggerating what is real and adding to it outlandish lies to make jewish suffering seem to be far worse than it is can be found throughout their history. They have used this tactic for centuries as part of their long-term evolutionary agenda to play on the moral sentiments of the in-groups among whom they have planted themselves, pretending to be loyal members of those in-groups while in fact always remaining only loyal to their own jewish in-group.

[Globus]

I believe that it might be more accurate to say that the jewish holocaust story contains exaggerations.

There is no such thing as a Jewish Holocaust story. There is Holocaust history, written by historians. As with all historical events,_all_, exaggerations can be found. These exaggerations are weeded out by historians.

It also contains many falsehoods that are not exaggerations. To say simply that it is exaggerated implies that it is basically true but somewhat distorted. I don't believe that that is the case.

But you can't list any examples or provide evidence for them. Why should anyone take this claim seriously?

Nearly every nation and ethnic group in Europe suffered during WWII.

That is irrelevant. Only Jews and Gypsies were targeted for genocide precisely because of their ethnicity. What did the Jews of Salonika Greece, or of Nazi Germany's allies Italy and Hungary, have to do with war. When nations start wars they expect their own and their enemies nations to suffer death. That is entirely different than committing genocide to utterly destroy an entire group of people based on idiotic theories of racial antisemitism.

[Burrhus]

Finkelstein questions the use which the holocaust story has served but NOT the alleged facts. Similar to some believers that we all know.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Temp/Temp-LadyRenoufVsNormanFinkelstein-Don'tMissWikiArticle-JamesB.htm

Norman (Finkelstein) called ALL those who did attend, "maniacs", "all members of the flat earth society", with "not one Holocaust scientist, and especially not, are David Duke or Robert Faurisson" !! To counter this, I quoted from Robert's one sentence summary of Revisionist research in his Teheran Speech; and defended the wider relevance (for the "Global View" aspect) of Duke's scholarly "Jewish Supremacism" book.

Here is that one sentence in which veteran historical revisionist Professor Robert Faurisson (in 1980) sums up the findings produced by revisionist research:

"The alleged Hitlerite gas chambers and the alleged genocide of the Jews form one and the same historical lie, which has permitted a gigantic political and financial swindle whose main beneficiaries are the state of Israel and international Zionism and whose main victims are the German people - but not their leaders - and the Palestinian people in their entirety."

Mentioning how much we respect Dr. Finkelstein for all he'd suffered due to his publications on Holocaust hucksterers, I extended an invitation, as one of its Committee members, for him to come to the next Holocaust Review Conference. He made the condition (same, in effect, as he made for the first Conference which he turned down) that "the bottom line" MUST be its acceptance that:

"Basically there is no question that during WW2 that Jews were systematically and methodically exterminated in an assembly line fashion by the Nazi regime - [ "as were both my parent's relatives" ] that's the bottom line. AFTER that bottom line, after THAT bottom line, there's lots of room for honest disagreement and debate". "5-6 million jews were systematically and methodically exterminated".

I then pointing out that Western source-scepticism presumes NO bottom line. Curiously, Finkelstein shied from naming with what mass murder weapon could such an astonishing feat have be done, that is, he never refers to "homocidal gas chambers" - I had to raise the issue when again I quoted Faurisson:

"No proofs capable of standing up to examination have been produced."

[Globus]

Finkelstein questions the use which the holocaust story has served but NOT the alleged facts. Similar to some believers that we all know.

Similar to anyone who studies the history. One has absolutely nothing to do with other.

WWII has also been used. Doesn't mean WWII did not occur?

Norman (Finkelstein) called ALL those who did attend, "maniacs", "all members of the flat earth society", with "not one Holocaust scientist, and especially not, are David Duke or Robert Faurisson" !! To counter this, I quoted from Robert's one sentence summary of Revisionist research in his Teheran Speech; and defended the wider relevance (for the "Global View" aspect) of Duke's scholarly "Jewish Supremacism" book.

Here is that one sentence in which veteran historical revisionist Professor Robert Faurisson (in 1980) sums up the findings produced by revisionist research:

"The alleged Hitlerite gas chambers and the alleged genocide of the Jews form one and the same historical lie, which has permitted a gigantic political and financial swindle whose main beneficiaries are the state of Israel and international Zionism and whose main victims are the German people - but not their leaders - and the Palestinian people in their entirety."

Care to point where the "findings" are in that sentence!

[Kriger]

In the process of reading the history of World War II, many discrepencies with Holocaust history become apparent.

In fact, it is extremely interesting to read histories of World War II and then compare this with the Holocaust history.

[Kriger]

I believe that it might be more accurate to say that the jewish holocaust story contains exaggerations. It also contains many falsehoods that are not exaggerations. To say simply that it is exaggerated implies that it is basically true but somewhat distorted. I don't believe that that is the case.

Nearly every nation and ethnic group in Europe suffered during WWII. Approximately 50,000,000 people died worldwide, some of them jews--perhaps 300,000-500,000, at most 1% of the total. What is exaggerated in the holocaust story is the number of jewish deaths as being 5-6 million and the qualitative nature of their suffering compared to non-jews.

To this exaggeration in the story however must be added the lies contained in it. Those lies include the assertion that there was a planned attempt on the part of the German government to kill all or most of the jews in Europe, that sadistic brutality was inflicted on the jews beyond what is normal in wartime, that millions of jews were killed by Zyklon-B gas in gas chambers designed for that purpose and that in some quasi-mystical manner the suffering of the jews was unique amidst the wide-spread suffering of all the other peoples caught up in the maelstrom of war.

These elements in the holocaust story are not exaggerations...they are falsehoods, lies. There was no plan, no systematic brutality, no gas chambers and nothing unique about the real suffering and deaths of the jews compared to the real suffering and deaths of the other peoples affected by the war.

Even a cursory examination of jewish history (and present events) will reveal the fact that this combination of exaggerating what is real and adding to it outlandish lies to make jewish suffering seem to be far worse than it is can be found throughout their history. They have used this tactic for centuries as part of their long-term evolutionary agenda to play on the moral sentiments of the in-groups among whom they have planted themselves, pretending to be loyal members of those in-groups while in fact always remaining only loyal to their own jewish in-group.

Yes, I should have clarified this statement.

I am sure that there were those within the Reich command who would just as soon kill a Jew as look at them. However, this does not mean that it was either Reich policy or intention to do so.

When reading the historical accounts of World War II, not the Holocaust accounts, removal of the Jews was presented in an emigration format, not an exterminate format.

Not all Jews were selected for emigration purposes. Many Jews were allowed to remain in the private sectors unhampered. I am not exactly sure why yet. Still poring through accounts of this. From what indications I am seeing is that the Jews being selected for emigration to Palestine in cooperation with the Zionists were of the common variety. Of the working masses, if you will.

There were even provisions made for those who for whatever reason--old age and disabled to name two--in the form of communties for them to live in.
These communities were referred to as "ghettos". The definition of ghetto was not then what has become it's definition in the modern world. It merely indicated a section of a city in which members of a minority group would live separate from the majority. They were to be encouraged to establish their own businesses and means of supporting themselves. Something comparable to Chinatown here in the U.S.

Jews were in high positions within the Reich itself. As I have mentioned previously, Adolph Eichmann was working closely with the Zionists of Palestine to facilitate emigration of Jews to Palestine. This came to a dead-end due to the fact that Britain had placed strict immigration policies into effect in Palestine because the Arab population of Palestine was strongly objecting to the immigration of Jews into the area. (Rioting and civil violence).