Women 'to blame' for being raped

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Thoughts? Do we need more laws that prevent this "outrageous" atempt by courts to actually find out what happened and throw the male into jail right away when acused?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=369262&in_page_id=1770



At risk: Women seen as targets after drinking

A third of Britons believe a woman who acts flirtatiously is partially or completely to blame for being raped, according to a new study.
More than a quarter also believe a woman is at least partly responsible for being raped if she wears sexy or revealing clothing, or is drunk, the study found.

One in five think a woman is partly to blame if it is known she has many sexual partners, while more than a third believe she is responsible to some degree if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man.

In each of these scenarios a slightly greater proportion of men than women held these views - except when it came to being drunk, when it was equal.

In fact more women (5pc) than men (3pc) thought a woman was "totally responsible" for being raped if she was intoxicated.

Support groups described the findings as "alarming" and "appalling".

The national charity Victim Support urged criminal justice professionals and healthcare workers to "consider how best to educate people about the terrible impact of rape, with a view to changing these attitudes."

The ICM opinion poll, commissioned by Amnesty International, also revealed that the vast majority of the British population has no idea how many women are raped every year in the UK.

Almost all, 96 per cent, of respondents said they either did not know the true extent of rape or thought it was far lower than the true figure.

Only 4 per cent even thought the number of women raped exceeded 10,000. The number of recorded rapes in 2004/5 was more than 12,000 and the 2001 British Crime Survey estimated that just 15 per cent of rapes come to the attention of the police.

'Rape is an appalling crime'

Amnesty International UK director Kate Allen said the poll, part of its Stop Violence Against Women campaign, had uncovered "disturbing attitudes".

She said: "It is shocking that so many people will lay the blame for being raped at the feet of women themselves and the government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist 'blame culture'."

The research had also exposed the scale of public ignorance over the true extent of rape crimes in the UK and the "dreadfully low" conviction rates, she said.

"The government has an international duty to prevent this gross human rights violation yet it's clear that the government's policies on tackling rape are failing and failing badly," she said.

"These findings should act as a wake-up call to the government to urgently tackle the triple problem of the high incidence of rape, low conviction rates and a sexist blame culture."

Joanna Perry, policy manager at Victim Support, said: "It is alarming to read that so many people seem to believe that a woman is responsible for inviting a rape or sexual assault, because of what she was wearing, what she drank or how she behaved.

"Rape is an appalling crime and has a devastating effect on victims, and those close to them. In other words, nobody asks to be raped."

'Prejudices' in court system

Ruth Hall, from the support group Women Against Rape, criticised "prejudices" in the court system, saying: "They still put the woman on trial, including her sexual history with other men, which is supposed to be banned and blame the woman for what happened to her and hold her accountable.

"If that is the standard set by the people who are supposed to be prosecuting rapists and protecting us it is not surprising if members of the public say the same thing."

She added: "Rather than another Government awareness campaign, the Government's responsibility is to get the criminal justice authorities to prosecute violent men. Let them worry about the awareness of the police, judges and the Crown Prosecution Service and public awareness will change."

Sheila Coates, director of the South Essex Rape and Incest Crisis Centre, said the poll showed people had little idea about the true extent of rape in the UK.

The support systems for victims were already stretched, she warned.

"The situation for rape victims and women's specialist sexual violence services are at critical," she said.

"Those needing counselling face waiting lists of up to one year and this can only get worse as more rape crisis groups close or cut back services due to a lack of funding and government support. This situation has forced victims into a postcode lottery when trying to find support."

The Home Office said it was determined to increase the number of rape cases which were successfully prosecuted.

A spokesman said: "We have made a number of changes to the legal system and to how the police and Crown Prosecution Service work, to put victims needs first and to make it easier for cases to get to trial and secure convictions.

"We are determined to close the gap between the increasing number of rape cases reported and the low number of convictions."

The number of recorded rapes of a female in 2004-05 was 12,867, up from 12,345 in 2003-04 - an increase of 4 per cent. The number of convictions for rape of a female in 2004 was 741, up from 666 in 2003.

• ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone.

They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped.

If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.

If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.

If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.

If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.

If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.

If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible.

[Atlas]

Honestly, when I see some 12 yo young chicks who wear like whores in the streets, I'm not that surprised to hear about pedophile and rape.

[Vindex]

We need less laws, not more.

[Kodos]

Thoughts? Do we need more laws that prevent this "outrageous" atempt by courts to actually find out what happened

LOL.

[Sinclair]

Come on, the fact that some people think a woman is TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE for getting raped is creepy...

I mean, it's not as though rape is a force of nature, like getting stung by mostquitoes if you go out in the woods without repellent in summer... Some guy has to be there to commit the rape.

[Vindex]

Some chicks just have it coming they put themselves ignorantly in dangerous situations just setting themselves up for it. People can say otherwise. But if you swim in a tank of hungry gators expect to get eaten.


Come on, the fact that some people think a woman is TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE for getting raped is creepy...

I mean, it's not as though rape is a force of nature, like getting stung by mostquitoes if you go out in the woods without repellent in summer... Some guy has to be there to commit the rape.

[Sinclair]

Rape requires a rapist. Hungry alligators don't know any better, eating is what they do. The whole "She was asking for it" defence is actually anti-man, because it basically paints men as weak, unable to resist raping a woman who dresses in revealing clothes or goes into the wrong neighbourhood at night.

Getting drunk in the wrong place, or going the wrong place at night, or trusting the wrong person, are all stupid choices. I'm not gonna pull out the whole line of BS that rape can strike any woman, any time, completely equal opportunity, etc. But if there were no men who committed rape, then women could run around naked in the worst part of town in the middle of night in a blackout and not get raped. They'd still probably get mugged and/or murdered, but they wouldn't be raped. The weight of responsibility for a crime is on the CRIMINAL.

[Starr]

Sexy or revealing clothes are obviously worn to attract a man, if a man cannot control himself, that is not the fault of the woman. I agree with Sinclair. Though there are certain scenerios where the woman should have enough sense not to dress like that.

And being drunk, what does that mean? Stupid decisions that may come along with being drunk, or just being drunk? People can be almost totally intoxicated and still have enough sense to not put themselves in a bad situation. Being drunk and going somewhere alone with an unknown person or persons may be somewhat asking for it. but what if the woman has had a little too much to drink and is with someone she has known for a while and he rapes her. completely different. If they are talking about a woman getting drunk and having sex and regretting it because she was "not in her right mind" or whatever. That is not rape, but stupidity. If the woman is passed out and the guy has sex with her, that line can be blurred a bit, but I still would not say it is not rape,(assuming he has not drugged her,etc) but the guy is a disgusting pig, no doubt. If you are so drunk that you are ready to pass out, you have to know there is, in the very least, a small chance that he may try something.

If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.

:confused: This I don't get. If a woman does not clearly say no to a man then how can there be any questions on whether it is rape? Is he supposed to guess that she is not really into it and then stop? fat chance. Many guys play all kinds of stupid games to try to get you to say yes, even after you have said no.:D come on, honey, I really do love you even though I don't even know your last name. LOL. *smack*

It is shocking that so many people will lay the blame for being raped at the feet of women themselves and the government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist 'blame culture'."

*violins* these women love this shit.

I am waiting for the opinions of Mazdak(all women are degenerate whores) and also ixabert.:p

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I agree with Citizens Starr and Sinclair. Who can not resist primitive urges is not worthy to begin with.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Rapists should be hung. Women who act stupid and end up getting raped already received the punishment for their stupidity.

[Billy Score]

I disagree. While in most cases the man should be punished for rape, women ask for it in plenty of ways. If you are drunk, if you are a whore, if you are wearing despicable and vile attire, then as far as i am concerned, you are fair game.

[Probably maybe]

it's fashion, you can't blame women for being fashionable and modern. All evil in the world come from sexually unsatisfied men. If you are worthless, use your hands or get into the jail. Period. :mad:

[Helios Panoptes]

Rape requires a rapist. Hungry alligators don't know any better, eating is what they do. The whole "She was asking for it" defence is actually anti-man, because it basically paints men as weak, unable to resist raping a woman who dresses in revealing clothes or goes into the wrong neighbourhood at night.

Getting drunk in the wrong place, or going the wrong place at night, or trusting the wrong person, are all stupid choices. I'm not gonna pull out the whole line of BS that rape can strike any woman, any time, completely equal opportunity, etc. But if there were no men who committed rape, then women could run around naked in the worst part of town in the middle of night in a blackout and not get raped. They'd still probably get mugged and/or murdered, but they wouldn't be raped. The weight of responsibility for a crime is on the CRIMINAL.

There is the way things are and the way they ought to be, and the two often diverge. If one makes judgements based on the way the world ought to be, that one has decided not to interact knowingly with reality and rather to interact ignorantly with it. It is so that rapists are the perpetrators and they commit the rapes, but women who pretend that there isn't a segment of the male population that is dangerous to women who make certain decisions are playing a significant role in placing themselves in perilous situations. It is partially their fault because their decisions are responsible.

It's as if one decided to go to a region of great civil unrest and strife because he thought the region wasn't necessarily dominated by this unrest and, in fact, ought to be otherwise. Now, when he gets there and is struck by a stray bullet, whose fault is it, at least partially? A person must make decisions based on that which is de facto.

[Keystone]

Rapists should be hung. Women who act stupid and end up getting raped already received the punishment for their stupidity.
I agree with Sinclair---rape requires a rapist. Being stupid doesn't justify the act by someone.

This a stupid argument.

[Ace Rimmer]

it's fashion, you can't blame women for being fashionable and modern. All evil in the world come from sexually unsatisfied men. If you are worthless, use your hands or get into the jail. Period. :mad:

Is this you in your signature?

[Keystone]

I disagree. While in most cases the man should be punished for rape, women ask for it in plenty of ways. If you are drunk, if you are a whore, if you are wearing despicable and vile attire, then as far as i am concerned, you are fair game.
If a woman asks for sexual contact, it ceases to be rape. Being drunk or wearing provocative clothes isn't asking to be screwed without you consent. Even asking to be paid for sex isn't inviting rape. It's all about consent.

Och. Stupid.

[Probably maybe]

Is this you in your signature?

Нет .

[Felix the Cat]

Nothing more to be said... men who cannot control their emotions are a social menace, and need to be removed from the gene pool

Life in jail, castration or a broken neck are all equally acceptable punishments

[Probably maybe]

Nothing more to be said... men who cannot control their emotions are a social menace, and need to be removed from the gene pool

Life in jail, castration or a broken neck are all equally acceptable punishments

thumbs up!

[Kodos]

Rape requires a rapist.

A charge of rape doesn't.

[Kodos]

I agree with Sinclair---rape requires a rapist. Being stupid doesn't justify the act by someone.

This a stupid argument.

If the woman was drunk at the time or if she knew the guy... it should require additional evidence to corraborate the charge.

Also if its found she was purposely lying, she should be put to death since a sex crime charge generally destroys the reputation of the accused even if hes aqquited.

[Crowley]

Date rape is more complicated. A college girl gets drunk and wakes up beside some guy she never would have slept with, had she not been drunk off her ass, so out of embarrassment she accuses the guy of rape. Hmmm. Bad deal.

[Starr]

Life in jail, castration or a broken neck are all equally acceptable punishments


And the rapist, himself, being raped in jail seems pretty just.:p. And they need to have it removed John wayne Bobbit style. Same thing with pedophiles.

Also if its found she was purposely lying, she should be put to death since a sex crime charge generally destroys the reputation of the accused even if hes aqquited.

Or she could be forced to go on television and publically admit she is nothing more than a lying whore. And have to live with that shame. And maybe she will be really raped someday and no one will believe her.

I disagree. While in most cases the man should be punished for rape, women ask for it in plenty of ways. If you are drunk, if you are a whore, if you are wearing despicable and vile attire, then as far as i am concerned, you are fair game.

Well you don't disappoint. How drunk does one have to be to be asking to be raped? What if someone has had a few drinks and is innocently walking down the street and some nigger grabs them? Is she asking for it just because she has been drinking? And what is despicable and vile attire? Short tight dress, no Burkha?:p what? According to these standards I have been asking for it on a few different occasions, well at least I never "got it" LOL Probably because drinking and wearing whatever types of clothes, alone, are not enough, rather there are bad decisions that may come along with these things that are possibly going to create the trouble.

[Vindex]

If some dumb chick puts herself in a situation that is dangerous and gets raped, then too fucking bad for her. She was dumb and was picked off, going to bars dressed cheap, and acting cheap and letting some dude you just met take you home. Unlike popular belief that is how most rapes happen. Not the break into your house or jump out of the trees type shit.

A big reality is most stupid white chicks who get raped by niggers, it was either some nigger they where friends with/dating. Or cuddling up to in the club. The way the WN group talks you think it would be niggers jumping out trees, but nope.

A stupid person I know got robbed of six hundred bucks, because he decide to be stupid and flash his cash around and walk through a certian area at night. So some nigger grabbed dipshit put a knife to his neck and got all his cash. The wages of being stupid, are painful.

[Probably maybe]

A stupid person I know got robbed of six hundred bucks, because he decide to be stupid and flash his cash around and walk through a certian area at night. So some nigger grabbed dipshit put a knife to his neck and got all his cash. The wages of being stupid, are painful.

This is different situation. Night is dangerous time for everyone - doesn't matter stupid you or not. Not stupid people are getting raped but those who weren't lucky and get at the wrong time in the wrong place.

[Starr]

It is true that most rapes are not the stranger coming out of the darkness to attack you. But it doesn't always neccessarily involve stupid decisions. Some rapists are good at gaining one's trust just enough so you will let your guard down just a bit and that is when it may happen.

[Vindex]

No the common principals behind it are the same, as some other stupid person being blissful unaware and stupid and getting picked off by a predator. Luck has sweet fuck all to do with it.


This is different situation. Night is dangerous time for everyone - doesn't matter stupid you or not. Not stupid people are getting raped but those who weren't lucky and get at the wrong time in the wrong place.

[Uberberserker]

The problem I have with these insane female scenarios is that today the concept of consent has been defined down to being almost unrecognizable (especially to males). Lets take a look at Illinoises law...

(AP) A new rape law in Illinois attempts to clarify the issue of consent by emphasizing that people can change their mind while having sex.

Under the law, if someone says "no" at any time the other person must stop or it becomes rape. The National Crime Victim Law Institute said it believed the law is the first of its kind in the country.

Lyn Schollett, general counsel for the Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault, said the law was important to make it clear to victims, offenders, prosecutors and juries that people have the right to halt sexual activity at any time.

"I think it will empower prosecutors in charging cases where the victim and the offender have a sexual history," she said.

But the director of the Victim Advocacy & Research Group in Boston said it would be hard to imagine courts not upholding a woman's right to withdraw consent.

"To me, it's demeaning," Wendy Murphy said. "It's like the old saying: 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' I don't think it was broke."

The law was inspired by a California case involving two 17-year-olds who had sex at a party. The girl changed her mind about having sex, but the boy did not stop immediately.

He was charged with rape, and it took years for the courts to decide that he could be found guilty under California law. The California Supreme Court ruled in January that a man can be convicted if a woman first consents but later asks him to stop.

Link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/30/national/main565870.shtml)

I also remember the case in California with the 17 year olds because I was living in California at the time it happened (it was some mexicans that skipped school).

Frankly feminism has destroyed females in this society (I believe the roots of this are in judeo-christian Gal. 3:28 egalitarianism) and many just can not be Trusted anymore. Lets look at Might is Right - Survival of the Fittest by Ragnar Redbeard and see what he had to say..

In many respects women have proved themselves more cruel, avaricious, blood-thirsty and revengeful than men.
Women are also remarkably good liars. Deception is an essential and necessary part of their mental equipment. They are inherently deceitful. Men however reckon upon that and discount it well in advance. Without deception of some sort, a woman would have no defense whatever, against rivals, lovers, or husbands. We must not forget that women really hate each other-intensely. It is as natural for women to prevaricate, as it is for man to resent a blow on the face. It is their weapon. Hence they take up with false religions, priest crafts, superstitions, much more readily than men. They like to play the hypocrite, and pretend to be "O so holy"; when their secret thoughts are carnal, self-centered and materialistic. When women think, they think falsely - when they follow their instinct, they do exactly what nature intended them to do - limited of course by the inevitable 'man' - "the brute that he is."
Women are beautiful animals, delightful companions, affectionate mothers, sisters and wives, kindhearted friends; but they are-born dissimulators.
A woman is primarily a reproductive cell-organism, a womb structurally embastioned by a protective, defensive, osseous network; and surrounded with the antennae, and blood vessels,
necessary for supplying nutirment to the growing ovum or embryo. Sexualism and maternity dominate the lives of all true women. To such an extent is this so, that they have little time left
(or inclination) to 'think' and therefore they've never been fitted out ab-initio with reasoning organs. Probably this is what Mahomet alluded to, when he sententiously affirmed that "women have no soul." (Even in man, the soul is probably a fiction, but in women its absence is an absolute certainty.) Women are made sexually attractive to equilibrate their lesser masculinity. It is man - the warriors - business to supply their wants, and select the best of them, for his own enjoyment and the propagation of his seed. They will not object - except in a giggling, semi-sentimental sort of way, because they comprehend their own incapacity for self-mastership, and logical business methods.
They are never touched with any sense of personal responsibility; are mere babies in worldly concerns - hysterical, well supplied with tear glands, verbal mechanisms - but lovable always. Slaves and women are notoriously incompetent of self-control - of holding their own in 'business' - when not inspired and assisted by male friends. They are intended by nature to be loved and defended but not to be "equalized."

Link (http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/archives/redbeard.html)

[Starr]

Lets take a look at Illinoises law...

Seems like the perfect way to remove all responsibility from the woman. If she is totally into it, cool. If she isn't, but doesn't know how to say no or changes her mind during the act or later. Just cry rape!:rolleyes:

And laws like this(making us all look like a bunch of undecisive weak little idiots who are always victimized. Oy vey) are supposed to be pro-female.:rolleyes:

Which is it bull dykes, uh ladies? am I a strong woman or a little mouse who is so oppressed by the evil known as "man"

A woman is primarily a reproductive cell-organism, a womb structurally embastioned by a protective, defensive, osseous network; and surrounded with the antennae, and blood vessels, women have no soul."

I want to desperately, but I am not even going to touch this.:rolleyes:

[Billy Score]

I will touch it, it was a great article. Inspiring really. How can people say that some little piece of filth with her breasts hanging out, a skirt up to her ass piss drunk in a club does not deserve to be raped? She is for all intents and purposes, asking for it. Like a goddamned dog in heat. she might as well put a sign up explaining her desire for it.

Infact, the idea of "rape", or at least, having someone "dominate" them is a very common fantasy for women. They WANT to be dominated, and what is more DOMINATING than a rapist?

Should the rapist be punished? absolutely. i do not deny that. The rapist is vile as well. But "victims" may not be as innocent as we always may thinkg.

[Starr]

How can people say that some little piece of filth with her breasts hanging out, a skirt up to her ass piss drunk in a club does not deserve to be raped? She is for all intents and purposes, asking for it. Like a goddamned dog in heat. she might as well put a sign up explaining her desire for it.

The best way I can explain how I feel about this is that I don't think they are "asking for it" per se(women are stupid and naive, sometimes) but I am not going to feel sorry for them either. They should know better.

Infact, the idea of "rape", or at least, having someone "dominate" them is a very common fantasy for women. They WANT to be dominated, and what is more DOMINATING than a rapist?

Even if this is the case, there is a big difference between allowing someone to take charge in a situation of something that you know you want and them forcing you to do what they and they alone want.

[Banat]

A charge of rape doesn't.

Should the rapist be punished? absolutely. i do not deny that. The rapist is vile as well. But "victims" may not be as innocent as we always may thinkg.

I agree with these two statements.

Rapists are a despicable kind, no matter if they actually did the act, or only seriously wanted it. But wearing 'Think about having sex with me' outfit and acting provocatively just for the sake of teasing, without any wish to make it happen is equally despicable.

Note: I think true rapists (read: maniacs) are intimidated by attractive and attractively dressed women, and tend to avoid their kind.

Sometimes it's difficult to tell a rapist from a mere bully, or a provoked feeble-minded sod. Depends on the situation.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Yes, a whole different can of worms is the fashion of falsely acusing men of rape without them having done anything really criminal. As someone said before, such charges, even if dropped, stick to your career and life.

[Excorcism]

it's fashion, you can't blame women for being fashionable and modern. All evil in the world come from sexually unsatisfied men. If you are worthless, use your hands or get into the jail. Period. :mad:

what about Mao Tse Tung? or Stalin?

[Excorcism]

I agree with Sinclair---rape requires a rapist. Being stupid doesn't justify the act by someone.

This a stupid argument.

I agree entirely, but I don't walk down dark alley ways on my way home at night because I don't feel like getting mugged. More women should realize that dressing in a very skimp outfit at clubs or bars and not having a group of people to be with can be really dangerous because there are rapists out there, even hanging out at clubs who don't think twice. I'm mainly saying, women should take more precaution and watch their drinks at all times. Turn away for one second and your drink has a date rape drug in it the next second that is untraceable. Then you wake up with no clothes on and bruised and beaten in an alleyway or dark room the next day. Not joking, these rapist fuckers are freaking sick. An old friend of mine used to be a cop and would see some horrible shit.

[Excorcism]

Yes, a whole different can of worms is the fashion of falsely acusing men of rape without them having done anything really criminal. As someone said before, such charges, even if dropped, stick to your career and life.

yep, sometimes guys get the shit end of the stick...no wait, that's everytime. If a woman wants to be equal, she better have her share of bullshit to deal with, and I'm not talking about pregnancy or childcare.

[Starr]

I'm mainly saying, women should take more precaution and watch their drinks at all times. Turn away for one second and your drink has a date rape drug in it the next second that is untraceable

I am and have always been really paranoid about this. Not many situations could be more scary. If someone wants to rape and/or kill you and you are passed out or under the influence of this shit you have no hope whatsoever. I can't imagine either letting some unknown guy buy me a drink or leaving my drink unattended with him. Hell no.:eek:

[Sinclair]

People often do stupid or irresponsible or foolish things... Doesn't mean they're "asking" to be raped or murdered or mugged or whatever.

Crime requires a criminal. Crime is not like, say, a sunburn. If a woman goes out in skimpy clothing without sunblock and gets a sunburn, it is her fault. But if a woman is raped, some man had to choose to rape her. (Or he's criminally insane).

Charges of rape can also ruin the person claiming rape. Why? Because all the stops will be pulled out. They will be accused of asking for it, they will be called a slut, their sexual history will be put on display. There's a case here in Toronto, where 14 guys and 2 girls, all black, are accused of sexually assaulting, repeatedly, a girl, who happens to be white, over an 18-month period. The police are being accused of racism, the girl is being called a whore, a sports groupie, etc. One of the boys' mothers said she tells her son to stay away from white girls because they're "bait". The entire school appears to be against this girl, or at least those who are for her are not speaking out. And the charges are probably not unfounded, given that the there are security tapes from the school which the public hasn't seen yet, but the police probably have.

Yeah, rapists usually select the easiest target. It doesn't mean the easiest target was "asking for it", or wanted to be raped, or whatever.

EDIT: That Feminist groups often go over the top (Is it true that some groups consider women learning self-defence to be "capitulating" to the way things are, rather than working towards changing things?) really doesn't change that rape is a crime that requires a criminal. Men are not animals incapable of resisting women, men can also say no. It is always possible not to have sex with a drunk girl you picked up in a bar, and it will probably save you quite a bit of trouble.

[Starr]

Charges of rape can also ruin the person claiming rape. Why? Because all the stops will be pulled out. They will be accused of asking for it, they will be called a slut, their sexual history will be put on display.

And just like with the male who was accused of rape, aquitted, and always will be looked at by some as a possible sex offender who got off, the woman who was raped, with the rapist sent to prison is still going to be looked at by some as being a lying whore who asked for it,etc.

It is always possible not to have sex with a drunk girl you picked up in a bar, and it will probably save you quite a bit of trouble.

though to a slightly lesser extent this is also a stupid decision that the male should have thought about. Is anyone prepared to say that they get what they deserve if things turn ugly? probably not.

[Sinclair]

And just like with the male who was accused of rape, aquitted, and always will be looked at by some as a possible sex offender who got off, the woman who was raped, with the rapist sent to prison is still going to be looked at by some as being a lying whore who asked for it,etc.

though to a slightly lesser extent this is also a stupid decision that the male should have thought about. Is anyone prepared to say that they get what they deserve if things turn ugly? probably not.

1. This is why the media should be kept from reporting people's identities in most cases.

2. Let's say there are women out there who are actively TRYING to nail guys with false charges of rape. A guy who goes for a one-night stand while a bit drunk, and gets charged with rape, "deserves" that about as much as a woman in a miniskirt who gets too drunk and gets into a bad situation "deserves" getting raped.

[Felix the Cat]

Sinclair do you have a weblink on that rape story you mentioned?

My googling did turn up this (http://www.trccmwar.ca/index.html), a "Multicultural Rape" center...

[Kodos]

Charges of rape can also ruin the person claiming rape. Why? Because all the stops will be pulled out. They will be accused of asking for it, they will be called a slut, their sexual history will be put on display.

Being a slut is not considered on the same level... or even in the same universe as being a rapist. There is also a BS piece of legislation called the "rape shield law" which generally keeps women from being questioned about this( in reality it makes thing horribly unfair to the defendent).

[Helios Panoptes]

People often do stupid or irresponsible or foolish things... Doesn't mean they're "asking" to be raped or murdered or mugged or whatever.

Stupid, irresponsible, or foolish decisions can have consequences that would not need to be experienced were they not made. You talk about just deserts; I'm simply discussing responsibility for rape. I'm not saying it is just for a woman to be raped for her stupidity because I think it would make her a worse person than she already is, which leaves a mess on society's hands. However, there is no way for me to deny that women often play a role in their rapes and have to be held responsible. If they behaved differently, the results would be different.

Crime requires a criminal. Crime is not like, say, a sunburn. If a woman goes out in skimpy clothing without sunblock and gets a sunburn, it is her fault. But if a woman is raped, some man had to choose to rape her. (Or he's criminally insane).

No one is saying that the rapist is a decent fellow, that his actions are acceptable, etc. The point is that the woman knows that such men are out there, so it is prudent to account for them, as opposed to thinking that their behavior should not be and ignoring the risks. It is wise for a woman about to make a decision about what to wear or how to act to treat rape like sunburn; that is, as an inhuman threat. Failure to do so leads to mistreatment. There is a causal relationship between the woman's behavior and rape. Frankly, I think this case is iron-clad.

[Sinclair]

But the original article has generally around 5% of respondents saying the woman is "totally responsible" for being raped... Which would imply that they believe there is no responsibility on the part of the rapist. Which is, to be blunt, fucking scary.

Emphasising the responsibility of women raped, whatever it be, will be more negative than positive. Why? Because there are undoubtedly other ways of encouraging things like taking self-defence classes, taking safe routes home, not getting too drunk, not letting anybody put stuff in your drink, etc, without actually saying that women are totally or partially responsible for rape, which would most likely make it harder for rape victims to recover pyschologically: Women who are raped probably blame themselves enough already, without having society reinforce that any more than it does already.

[Helios Panoptes]

But the original article has generally around 5% of respondents saying the woman is "totally responsible" for being raped... Which would imply that they believe there is no responsibility on the part of the rapist. Which is, to be blunt, fucking scary.

Emphasising the responsibility of women raped, whatever it be, will be more negative than positive. Why? Because there are undoubtedly other ways of encouraging things like taking self-defence classes, taking safe routes home, not getting too drunk, not letting anybody put stuff in your drink, etc, without actually saying that women are totally or partially responsible for rape, which would most likely make it harder for rape victims to recover pyschologically: Women who are raped probably blame themselves enough already, without having society reinforce that any more than it does already.


I disagree because it is better to know that they are responsible. This way, they can take action to protect themselves. If a noble lie is told, the problem is exacerbated because women are made ineffectual and unable to exercise control. Why would they bother to take the measures you suggest if they are not partially responsible for their fates? That would imply that someone else is wholly responsible and there's not much influence that can be exerted from this resigned position. It is better, in this case, to make them acknowledge their responsibility.

Additionally, there's the truth and there's the noble lie you suggest. I thought we were discussing the former, in which case the question isn't the knowledge women should be made privy to, but what is the truth.

[Sinclair]

It can be framed as a "You can work to help prevent being raped" rather than "You are partially or wholly responsible for not being raped". It's actually the same thing, really...

Kids are told to look both ways before crossing the street so they run less of a chance of getting hit by a car, not that they're partially/wholly responsible if they do get hit.

[Helios Panoptes]

It can be framed as a "You can work to help prevent being raped" rather than "You are partially or wholly responsible for not being raped". It's actually the same thing, really...


We agree then that women are partially responsible and that their responsibility should be positively reinforced, as opposed to ridiculing rape victims for their stupidity. While they are at fault, it's unproductive to do so. It seemed to me that you were saying that the behavior of women exerts no causal influence on their being raped and that the rapist is responsible in full, but we've cleared the matter up.

[Starr]

A guy who goes for a one-night stand while a bit drunk, and gets charged with rape, "deserves" that about as much as a woman in a miniskirt who gets too drunk and gets into a bad situation "deserves" getting raped.

Oh, I agree. I didn't mean to imply that I think they do. But I am wondering if those who are so quick to say a girl deserves to get raped because she made stupid decisions would also say the guy, who also makes a stupid decision by screwing some strange woman at the bar would deserve something like this. As I said earlier, I don't think the male or the female, "deserves" either situation, but I am also not going to feel too sorry for either. What they do "deserve" is simply for the girl to be played for the fool she is and the guy to have to deal with a whole lot of drama(the crying, phone calls,etc) that would come from screwing a girl and dumping her.:p

It seemed to me that you were saying that the behavior of women exerts no causal influence on their being raped and that the rapist is responsible in full, but we've cleared the matter up.

It depends completely on the situation. In some scenerios the girl or woman is not responsible in any way for the rape, in other situations, she may be.

Being a slut is not considered on the same level... or even in the same universe as being a rapist. There is also a BS piece of legislation called the "rape shield law" which generally keeps women from being questioned about this( in reality it makes thing horribly unfair to the defendent).

Good defense attorneys can be assholes in these situations, but it is their job. And to question the woman about her past and imply that she may be less then pure(for lack of a better term) may not seem like the nicest thing to do, but it is relevant to the case for obvious reasons.

[Sinclair]

Thought: Lines don't tend to get drawn enough between responsibility, fault, and guilt.

As for cases where absolutely NOTHING could reasonably have been done, the worst bit is that these are probably the cases that are reported the least, and go to court the least.

[Helios Panoptes]

Thought: Lines don't tend to get drawn enough between responsibility, fault, and guilt.

That is true. For instance, one might think that by asserting that women are at fault that I also think rape is their just desert. This is not the case, although, in a lot of these cases I am not terribly sympathetic.

[Starr]

As for cases where absolutely NOTHING could reasonably have been done, the worst bit is that these are probably the cases that are reported the least, and go to court the least.


Unfortunately this is all too correct I would assume. A drama queen who has all kinds of issues and wants to falsely accuse a man of rape is going to be the one yelling the loudest and wanting everyone to know all about it. A decent woman who was truly raped is probably going to feel shame and is not going to want anyone to know about it and for that reason may not tell anyone.

[Probably maybe]

what about Mao Tse Tung? or Stalin?

Yes - and Hitler, and Mussolini, and Franco etc etc - all from the same opera.

[Helios Panoptes]

Yes - and Hitler, and Mussolini, and Franco etc etc - all from the same opera.

You do realize that this sort of psycho-sexual analysis went out a long time ago, right? It's too bad you weren't born earlier, so you, too, could be a scholar who combed over Shakespeare in search of phallic symbols. Unfortunately, though, the time is now and you're embarrassing yourself with this rubbish.

[Probably maybe]

You do realize that this sort of psycho-sexual analysis went out a long time ago, right? It's too bad you weren't born earlier, so you, too, could be a scholar who combed over Shakespeare in search of phallic symbols. Unfortunately, though, the time is now and you're embarrassing yourself with this rubbish.

No, I am not. Everyone knows Hitler, Beria and Stalin were a pedophilles. ;)

[Sinclair]

Unfortunately this is all too correct I would assume. A drama queen who has all kinds of issues and wants to falsely accuse a man of rape is going to be the one yelling the loudest and wanting everyone to know all about it. A decent woman who was truly raped is probably going to feel shame and is not going to want anyone to know about it and for that reason may not tell anyone.

I was thinking more like child abuse, or abuse of older children (Some guy raping his 15-year-old stepdaughter isn't technically speaking a pedophile, though legally he probably is).

Society still attatches a lot more to rape than it does to other crimes, probably because of the sexual aspect, "impurity" etc.

[Billy Score]

i'd like to also add that no good woman should be out in clubs, or anywhere but home late at night. If she were home the chances of her being raped drop significantly.

[Probably maybe]

i'd like to also add that no good woman should be out in clubs, or anywhere but home late at night. If she were home the chances of her being raped drop significantly.

Yes, it's definately better to sit at home all the time - no partys, no work, no college. It's too dangerous outside. Even at home you are not 100% safe - the best solution is to be liyng under the bed 24 hours a day and keep all the lights off. :rolleyes:

[Starr]

i'd like to also add that no good woman should be out in clubs, or anywhere but home late at night. If she were home the chances of her being raped drop significantly.


You can be relatively safe at any time and in almost any setting if you take the right precautions. What you say here sounds like an incredibly paranoid way to live your life. I don't go the clubs, not because I am afraid, but just because I don't like the type of people that they draw and the fact that they seem to be like meat markets. And I don't want to deal with that hassle.

[Starr]

A rape case has collapsed after a 21-year-old student said that she had been too drunk to remember whether or not she had agreed to have sex.
The woman had alleged she was raped by fellow student Ruairi Dougal in a hall of residence at Aberystwyth University.

But High Court judge Justice Roderick Evans directed the jury to reach a not guilty verdict, on the basis that drunken consent is still consent.

Mr Dougal, 20, had told the Swansea court that the sex was consensual.

The woman said she passed out after drinking too much.

Swansea Crown Court heard on Wednesday, that the woman alleged that Mr Dougal, from County Donegal in the Republic of Ireland, had raped her in a corridor outside her room in the halls.

She told the court that she was sure she would not have consented, and if she had wanted sex she would have opened her flat door and taken the man into her bedroom.

The question of consent is an essential part of the case

Barrister Huw Rees

But defence barrister Stephen Rees argued it was impossible for her to be sure she had not consented because she could not remember.

After she gave evidence, Huw Rees for the prosecution said he was abandoning the case.

Judge Mr Justice Roderick Evans then instructed the jury to find Mr Dougal not guilty.

During the case, the jury had heard how the female student drank vodkas before attending a party at the arts centre on the university's campus.

She became ill and a member of staff asked Mr Dougal, who was working as a security guard, to walk her home.

She told the court she could remember little else apart from lying on the corridor floor and briefly emerging from unconsciousness to be aware "that something was happening".(what was your first clue? LOL)

Drunken consent

The woman complained to police two days after the alleged attack, but it was not until police interviewed Mr Dougal that she was told that she had had full sexual intercourse, the court heard.

"The prosecution has taken stock, in light of the evidence revealed in cross examination," said Huw Rees.

"The question of consent is an essential part of the case. Drunken consent is still consent.

"She said she could not remember giving consent and that is fatal for the prosecution's case."

Kind of goes along with what is being talked about somewhat in this thread. If she did not know whether she consented or not, why was this even brought to court?:confused:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/mid_/4428418.stm

[Billy Score]

what purpose does a woman have being out at a certain hour if not accompanied by her nearest of male kin? personally i see little reason for it. A secluded existance? of course. But it is not like i am asking for something new- this was how even the degenerate ancient greeks and to a lesser extent the romans had the genders split up. Although the greeks probably wantedthe woman kept at home so they could go out looking for little boys.

As for your link, i actually saw a news report on this case. it is obvious she was looking for excuses. i notice many young women these days seem to love claiming "rape." All of them have sobstories about how they were "taken advantage of." Upon closer examination, you see these allegations fall apart like a deck of cards. I have witnessed this first hand.
The man and woman are both guilty and vile, but he did not rape her. rape is like "police brutality"... its becoming what you WNs would call a "race card."

[Starr]

As for your link, i actually saw a news report on this case. it is obvious she was looking for excuses. i notice many young women these days seem to love claiming "rape." All of them have sobstories about how they were "taken advantage of."

A lot of them do get "taken advantage of" because they are stupid and allow themselves to be. That is what many of them are really pissed and/or ashamed about.

what purpose does a woman have being out at a certain hour if not accompanied by her nearest of male kin? personally i see little reason for it.

I work until past the time it gets dark. Since I do not have a husband or boyfriend even should I have my daddy or one of my uncles accompany me and hold my hand? I probably should since everywhere I go there is some man there who is leering at me, undressing me with his eyes and waiting for the perfect moment to attack.:p

[Uberberserker]

Sinclair do you have a weblink on that rape story you mentioned?

I think he was mentioning this case here:

Amren.com - Teen Sex Charges Anger Parents (http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/11/teen_sex_charges_anger_parents.php)

[Anarch]

It is always possible not to have sex with a drunk girl you picked up in a bar, and it will probably save you quite a bit of trouble.

Agreed. Definetly agreed.

Emphasising the responsibility of women raped, whatever it be, will be more negative than positive. Why? Because there are undoubtedly other ways of encouraging things like taking self-defence classes, taking safe routes home, not getting too drunk, not letting anybody put stuff in your drink, etc, without actually saying that women are totally or partially responsible for rape, which would most likely make it harder for rape victims to recover pyschologically: Women who are raped probably blame themselves enough already, without having society reinforce that any more than it does already.

This, however, is bullshit. The best defense against the possibility of rape, IMO, are to go out with trusted friends, both male and female, when you want to go a club or a bar.. Concentrate on your drink and make sure nothing's in it but your choice of alcohol or whatever, don't drink it or turn away from it when on your own (keep an eye on your drink unless you're with mates). Self defense classes are bullshit. I could overpower almost any drunk guy if I put my mind to it, and I suppose this doesn't say much for the chances of a young woman - I did Karate since I was seven years old, quit three years ago, but I've forgotten enough of it asides from the relatively common sense shit. Not that you could get into clubs with carrying this kind of stuff, but I'd suggest a knife or a pistol... then again, maybe not, don't want to get busted for sticking bullet in a guy who was chivalrous enough to help you reach the taxi and want nothing more than that.

Just think common sense.

Oh, and I agree - public confessions from women (or men - yeah, guys can get raped, there was a story on a few years ago) for false accusations of rape are a damn good idea. I think I'd advocate public execution for rapists convicted beyond reasonable doubt. The rest can go rot in prison for 10 years (ten years is a damn long time to spend in a cage).

[Sinclair]

Hey, I'm only saying that it's better to paint responsibility in a positive rather than a negative sense.

[Billy Score]

Women who are raped probably blame themselves enough already, without having society reinforce that any more than it does already.

oh christ let me pull out my violin and play a mournful tune for all the poor drunken lowborn vermin out there who need more "understanding." Criminals and degenerates thrive on society's "understanding."

[hellsatan]

If you cushion people from the truth of the situation they won't learn...

What gets me, is I know alot of potential rape victims...

I chaparone several girls I'm friendly with, and most people won't want to pick a fight with me, so I know they are pretty safe...

However even when I am there, they flirt and flirt and get so pissed, revealing their tits to passers by and/or kissing each other in a lesbian act, giving lap dances to strangers and basically inviting them to "come and play" without saying it...

Now I love my friends and I wouldn't wish them any harm, but I'm sure if one of them got raped, the others around her would learn from her mistake...

The attitude of "Oh it will never happen to me" makes me so angry I sometimes want to hit the person...

Nobody is invincible - I could get raped tomorrow - My family or friends could get raped tomorrow...

While I'm not sure why any woman or man would want to rape me (if it's a man and I ever found him I'd remove his penis with a machete), the point is you can't totally rely on other people with your safety...

I go out to clubs on my own - Most of the places I go I'm well known and liked by the bar staff, the bouncers, most of the clubbers in there and the DJs - I'm safe because I know if some idiot attacked me, I'd probably have somewhere between 15 and 50 people kicking the shit out of them at any one time...

I know I'm not invincible but I can take care of myself for the most part - Others need to learn how to take care of themselves, and I don't mean go to self-defence classes and learn karate, so you can break bricks over their head if they attack you...

I mean, you need to come prepared for the worst; Bring pepper spray or mace, a rape alarm and a mobile phone, with a speed dial linking to the police on say Speed Dial #2 or #3 - Watch out for men and/or women eyeing you up, in any way - Just because they might not want to rape you doesn't mean they won't want to kick your innards out...

On the higher side of paranoia, go places you know - Don't go to the newest latest club all by yourself just because it opened tonight - Go to your regular place if you really must go out and try and stick close to people you know there - Chat with bartenders and bouncers, hover around the DJ box or around the bar...

The plus side? People will recognise you and may come to your aid if they see you are in difficulty - Also, you will know how to get into and out of the club, and most likely know some of the surrounding area - Try and visualise a scenario about someone trying to attack, and what you would do, what direction you would go, who you would call, how you would respond...

Taking care to take care of your own well being is something that rape victims, in at least some cases, fail to do...

I'm not saying women are entirely to blame, but the rapist his or herself are not entirely to blame either - Women for the most part have a duty of care to themselves to keep themselves "with it" and not try and walk home drunk...

They should provide money to get a Taxi from a reputable and well-known Taxi firm, instead of walking...

They shouldn't walk alone anyway in the dark, but walk main roads if you insist on doing so - Don't walk down alleys or through parks or down side-roads with poor lighting - Even if it takes you 15 minutes to walk around your shortcut, that decision may prevent you from getting raped...

In the modern day society, you can't expect to wear skimpy clothing, get pissed so you can barely stand up, walk home via dark and potentially empty streets and be surprised you got raped or attacked...

Chris

[Starr]

However even when I am there, they flirt and flirt and get so pissed, revealing their tits to passers by and/or kissing each other in a lesbian act, giving lap dances to strangers and basically inviting them to "come and play" without saying it...

I think you(or maybe they) have seen too many girls gone wild videos.

Now I love my friends and I wouldn't wish them any harm, but I'm sure if one of them got raped, the others around her would learn from her mistake...

If you are telling the truth about the way they act what makes you think they would learn anything? It is possible I suppose, but obviously they don't have enough sense to realize that acting in this way may cause some problems, so if one of them were to get raped, they would probably go on believing they did nothing wrong and do not have to change their behavior.

[hellsatan]

Sadly, you may be right...

I'd hope that they'd perhaps tone down their open "girls gone wild video" behaviour...

I'll probably end up having a discussion with them about it anyway; It's getting to the stage now where I'm almost embarassed to be out with them...

Chris

[raven]

Personally I don't believe its very gentlemanlike to go screw some girl who is incredibly drunk and puking and what not. That said women should be drinking more responsibly and not making asses of themselves. Responsibility goes both ways for me on this issue. Now if a guy slipped a girl a roofie or something and then date-rapped her... I would definately consider that a criminal offense as she took the roofie without her own consent/knowledge.

[Starr]

Personally I don't believe its very gentlemanlike to go screw some girl who is incredibly drunk and puking and what not.

Guys that would do so are every bit as disgusting as the girls who get drunk and slut themselves around. I can always spot men like this and I would not touch them with a ten foot poll I don't even like speaking to them unless I am in the mood to asume myself.

[Dances with Wolves]

Guys that would do so are every bit as disgusting as the girls who get drunk and slut themselves around. I can always spot men like this and I would not touch them with a ten foot poll I don't even like speaking to them unless I am in the mood to asume myself.

How can you spot 'em Starr? Do they have that look?! :confused:

[Starr]

I didn't mean spot them exactly how it sounds as in they look a certain way.:p But you sure can tell quickly by how they act. If they are particularily crude(and not very smart) they will say anything to you, and try to touch you and kiss you,etc. If they are more crafty they will try to butter you up with all kinds of completely phony compliments, while trying to give you the impression they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Guys like this are a dime a dozen and while they may think they are "suave" women who know better are laughing at their antics and how retarded and obvious they are.

[Dances with Wolves]

I didn't mean spot them exactly how it sounds as in they look a certain way.:p But you sure can tell quickly by how they act. If they are particularily crude(and not very smart) they will say anything to you, and try to touch you and kiss you,etc. If they are more crafty they will try to butter you up with all kinds of completely phony compliments, while trying to give you the impression they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Guys like this are a dime a dozen and while they may think they are "suave" women who know better are laughing at their antics and how retarded and obvious they are.

I see. Starr the Evil Eye! lol. I can't stand guys like that myself, those are the ones that need facelifts. A lot of women seem to like it though, I don't get it. It's like, the more you bullshit them the better it is. Weird.

[Starr]

That is most likely because they want attention and praise and the guy is giving it to them and they want to believe it.

[Dances with Wolves]

That is most likely because they want attention and praise and the guy is giving it to them and they want to believe it.

They ain't fooling starr though. She's got their act down!