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Petr
11-22-2005, 09:47 PM
I am frankly full of contempt (not hatred) towards Dan Brown and his myriads of fans. His book of is an epitome of postmodern filth with its sneaky mixture of fact and fiction and outrageous revisionism with its antichrist denial that the early church did not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Reformed scholar James White has published a multi-part response to Brown's drivel - I will quote some parts of it.


http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=955

09 November
The Da Vinci Code (Part VI)

One of the most eloquent testimonies to the error of Dan Brown and the ridiculous and outrageous claims of TDVC regarding the "creation" of the deity of Christ by Constantine is found in the sermon on the Passover preached around twenty years before the end of the second century by Melito, bishop of Sardis. I included my translation of this tremendous section in my book, The Forgotten Trinity, and reproduce it here. Remember, this sermon was preached approximately 145 years prior to Nicea, 130 years prior to Constantine's battle at the Milvian Bridge (where he allegedly saw the sign of the cross in the sky and the phrase, "in this sign, conquer"). As you read these words, rejoice, as I rejoice, at the thought of this ancient believer and the fact that he reveled in the truth about the God-man Jesus Christ just as we do today! Oh that we had more preaching like this in our land today!

And so he was lifted up upon a tree and an inscription was attached indicating who was being killed. Who was it? It is a grievous thing to tell, but a most fearful thing to refrain from telling. But listen, as you tremble before him on whose account the earth trembled!

He who hung the earth in place is hanged.
He who fixed the heavens in place is fixed in place.
He who made all things fast is made fast on a tree.
The Sovereign is insulted.
God is murdered.
The King of Israel is destroyed by an Israelite hand.
This is the One who made the heavens and the earth,
and formed mankind in the beginning,
The One proclaimed by the Law and the Prophets,
The One enfleshed in a virgin,
The One hanged on a tree,
The One buried in the earth,
The One raised from the dead and who went up into the heights of heaven,
The One sitting at the right hand of the Father,
The One having all authority to judge and save,
Through Whom the Father made the things which exist from the beginning of time.
This One is “the Alpha and the Omega,”
This One is “the beginning and the end”
—the beginning indescribable and the end incomprehensible.
This One is the Christ.
This One is the King.
This One is Jesus.
This One is the Leader.
This One is the Lord.
This One is the One who rose from the dead.
This One is the One sitting on the right hand of the Father.
He bears the Father and is borne by the Father.
“To him be the glory and the power forever. Amen.”

posted at 01:00:00 on 11/09/05 by James R. White



http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=956

11 November
The Da Vinci Code (Part VII)

He was on his way to his death, and he knew it. The story of Ignatius, the great bishop of Antioch, one of the early Christian martyrs, is well known, at least to those with an interest in church history (which limits things a good bit these days). Unwilling to compromise, Ignatius happily, as an aged man, embraced his departure to be with Christ. As he traveled to Rome to face death, he wrote to individuals and churches, and those letters have come down to us over the intervening centuries in Greek and Latin versions. Evidently, Dan Brown's extensive "historical research" for TDVC missed his letters, written in 107 or 108 (that's 200+ years prior to the Council of Nicea). If he had bothered to read these works, he would have known that claiming Constantine "made up" the deity of Christ or His position as the Son of God would be a historical blunder on the level of saying Jimmy Carter ran against George Washington for the Presidency of the United States.

Here is a selection from Ignatius' genuine writings (there is a body of pseudo-Ignatian literature as well) that testify to his view of the Lord Jesus Christ. For more information on this, and the apologetic relevance of Ignatius in light of a tremendously gross attempt to misrepresent him by the Watchtower Society a number of years ago, click here. His words to the Ephesians identifying Jesus as God were noted in our previous entry. [Which reminds me: the Yahoo! article rendered the inscription found in the ancient church as "the god, Jesus Christ," but in reality, the underlying Greek is probably almost identical to Ignatius' phrase here, and whether you render it "the god" or "God" is dependent upon the translator and the context. Hence, the inscription [without having seen the actual Greek as yet] could be rendered "to the God, Jesus Christ" just as in Ignatius. This is, in fact, how it is rendered here.]

[I] My spirit is but an offscouring of the cross, which is a scandal to the unbelieving, but to us it is salvation and life eternal. Where is the wise man? Where is the disputer? Where is the boasting of those who are called understanding? [B]For our God, Jesus the Christ[/B], was conceived by Mary according to a dispensation of God, from the seed of David, yes, but of the Holy Spirit as well.[/I] (Ephesians 18)

Notice not only the explicit affirmation of the deity of Christ, but likewise the very high view of Christ stated as well: Ignatius clearly viewed Jesus as the God-man, affirming both his humanity and his Deity, as we will see in another citation below.

[I] Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her that hath found mercy in the bountifulness of the Father Most High and of Jesus Christ His only Son; to the church that is beloved and enlightened through the will of Him who willed all things that are, by faith and love [B]towards Jesus Christ our God[/B]; even unto her that hath the presidency in the country of the region of the Romans...[/I](Romans 1).

Note here that 1) in the very salutation of the letter the deity of Christ is plainly present, again showing its centrality to the faith of the early believers; 2) in passing, Ignatius, though he names other bishops (like Polycarp) when he writes to the church at Rome he does not do so. Why? Because there was no single bishop at Rome at this time. Rome had a plurality of elders until around AD 140, and only then did the monarchical (single bishop) model take hold in Rome.

[I] For [B]our God Jesus Christ[/B], being in the Father, is more plainly seen. The work is not of persuasiveness, but Christianity is a thing of might, whenever it is hated by the world[/I] (Romans 3).

This kind of description is so blatant, so easily made, coming not at the end of a long series of arguments or a long theological discussion, but almost "in passing," shows the centrality of the belief to believers worldwide, for remember, Ignatius is not only bishop of a major church (Antioch), but he is writing to churches all over Asia Minor, so that his words are not idiosyncratic, but represent the universal faith of the early believers. Surely this is the case with the church at Smyrna:
[I]
I give glory to [B]Jesus Christ the God[/B] who bestowed such wisdom upon you; for I have perceived that ye are established in faith immovable, being as it were nailed to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, in flesh and in spirit, and firmly grounded in love in the blood of Christ, fully persuaded as touching our Lord that He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but [B]Son of God [/B]by the Divine will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we--that is, of His most blessed passion); that He might set up an ensign unto all the ages through His resurrection, for His saints and faithful people, whether among Jews or among Gentiles, in one body of His Church....Let no man be deceived. Even the heavenly beings and the glory of the angels and the rulers visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ [who is God], judgment awaiteth them also [/I](Smyrneans 6).

Note not only the repeated references to the deity of Christ, but to Christ as the Son of God, to the human nature of Christ, the redeeming death of Christ...so much for altered gospels in the fourth century at Nicea!
[I]
Await the One who is above every season, the Eternal, the Invisible, the One who for our sake became visible, the Untouched, the Impassible, who for our sake suffered, who endured in every way for our sake [/I](Polycarp 3).

Once again not only the deity of Christ but the Incarnation are central to Ignatius' teachings. Here, within a single generation of the last of the Apostles the highest forms of Christology exist in the writings passed down to us through history. To say Brown's statements about the early followers of Christ viewing him merely as a mortal prophet stand utterly refuted is to engage in understatement.

[I] There is one physician, of flesh and of spirit, generate and ingenerate, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first passible and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord. [/I](Ephesians 7)

This is one of my favorite quotations from Ignatius, and for many others who have had to endure the endless babbling of liberal scholars and theologians who assure us with condescending smile that what we believe about Christ was the result of slow and purely human evolution over time. Here, in the first generation after the Apostles, the highest Christology is found---one person, two natures, the God-man, incarnation---it is all here, and it is a given that his audience shares his faith. How wonderful that after two thousand years of man's best attempts to pervert this faith, it still flourishes in the hearts of God's people!

posted at 01:00:00 on 11/11/05 by James R. White




http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1022

[FONT="Arial"][SIZE="4"]19 November
The Da Vinci Code IX[/SIZE][/FONT]

[I] "It was all about power," Teabing continued. "Christ as Messiah was critical to the functioning of Church and state. Many scholars claim that the early Church literally stole Jesus from His original followers, hijacking His human message, shrouding it in an impenetrable cloak of divinity, and using it to expand their own power. I've written several books on the topic." [/I](233)

Dan Brown's utter incomprehension of biblical scholarship and history comes out here again, for he seems to think that "Christ as Messiah" and "Jesus as Son of God" are equivalent terms. Surely, the idea of Christ as the Jewish Messiah is as primitive as can be, and it would be even more absurd (if that is possible) to suggest that it was Constantine who came up with the idea of Jesus as the Messiah! Such is silly beyond words, and I know of now scholar at all who makes such a suggestion.

The early church was a loosely connected group of persecuted churches, racked by heresy and strife, despised by the world. The idea that the early church could be so organized, let alone so dishonest, as to 1) die by the thousands for a lie, 2) seek political power while being persecuted thereby, and 3) come up with such a grand scheme, is again absurd. So is Brown misusing terminology again, and not referring to the early Church at all, but instead to post-Constantinianism? Surely the growth of the church/state relationship began with Constantine, but there is simply no possible way of connecting Jesus as Messiah with post-Constantinianism. So, assuming, then, that Brown is simply incompetent as a historian, let's reconstruct his assertion. Let's say he's talking solely about the deity of Christ here, not Jesus as Messiah. So, the idea is that Jesus' deity was vital to the construction of a church/state relationship. Is there merit to this assertion?

Not historically, for once again, Brown ignores the Arian resurgence after the council of Nicea. Constantine didn't care if Jesus was deity or not: he only cared about political stability in his lifetime. He surely did not have some "big conspiracy picture" in his mind for future generations. This is pure historical revisionism masquerading as scholarship (note the "I've written several books on the topic"---and he will soon cite numerous actual books published over the past decades, again giving credence to the "fiction based on fact" concept). Who are these "many scholars"? Of course, we are not told. Of course, you could get a group of "scholars" to agree to anything if you have enough money and time, but that is hardly relevant to truth.

[B] Ironically, this thesis, as absurd as it is historically, is exactly what I keep hearing from Islamic apologist Shabir Ally. The poor "original followers" of Jesus could not manage to proclaim his truth, and the mean nasty followers of Paul basically "took over." When you try to find these original followers, you find more and more assertion with less and less documentation---in fact, you find absolutely nothing more than mere assertion and speculation, but these days, assertion and speculation, as long as it is joined with a smile or "sincerity," is all you really need. Post-modernism flourishes.[/B]

Now having made an utter mockery of history itself, Brown now decides to mock the faith itself in these words. Having claimed to have written several books asserting Jesus was "hi-jacked" by the early church, we read,

[I] "And I assume devout Christians send you hate mail on a daily basis?"
"Why should they?" Teabing countered. "The vast majority of educated Christians know the history of their faith."[/I]

This kind of rhetoric is simply disgusting. "Well, if you were really educated, you'd know what I'm saying is true." Such is especially reprehensible in light of the fact that it is Brown who is demonstrating his utter lack of education (or, worse, utter dishonesty) with this kind of ravaging of historical realities. The vast majority of educated Christians know the early church hi-jacked Jesus? [B]This kind of absurdity can only be promulgated in this fashion: it can never survive actual debate and examination, so it must assert itself by repetition, or, in this case, through repetition on movie screens and in book stores all across the world.[/B][B]

posted at 01:00:00 on 11/19/05 by James R. White[/B]


Petr

Lenny
11-23-2005, 03:55 AM
Have you read the book in question Petr?

I dont know why people get so mad about it, it is fiction. People dont seem to get as upset as much about all the other fictional nonsense. Like the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" or the bizarre "Gnostic gospels". And then there was the mariolatry in the movie "Passion of the Christ", which qualified that movie as fiction in my opinion

Atlas
11-23-2005, 05:57 AM
The book as something totally fictional is a good example of an adventure - Lara Croft style. Well kind of. The ending was totally BLEAK it's like the guy pulled it out of his ass. The action was okay, but the ending was really disappointing.

And as already has been made clear, the book is pure fiction. But one thing that I have found interesting was about DaVinci, and his Last supper, I saw a replica of the painting (HUGE ONE) in my art room, and I can swear that the person on Jesus' right looks like a woman. But that's my opinion.

But back to the book, well the ending really ruined it for me. One more thing, the mona lisa is not a self portrait for those who think it was no matter how gay DaVinci was.

Petr
11-23-2005, 01:22 PM
I dont know why people get so mad about it, it is fiction. People dont seem to get as upset as much about all the other fictional nonsense.
We are talking about sneaky insinuations here, willful mixing of fact and fiction that is propagated in mass medias all over the world. The popularity of this tripe is a classic example of "a lie getting halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on."


And then there was the mariolatry in the movie "Passion of the Christ", which qualified that movie as fiction in my opinion
I didn't think that "Passion" was all that great either, but seriously. Do you think that bashing Catholicism is what Protestant Christianity is all about? It also involves smashing liars like Dan Brown and their revisionist claims about the denial of Jesus Christ's divinity by the early church.


Petr

jasonlfunk
11-23-2005, 02:52 PM
What throws most people is that Dan Brown claims that everything in the book is fact. This causes people to think that others that read the book are going to belive that it is true, when in fact it is purly fiction. Dan Brown says this:

If you read the "FACT" page, you will see it clearly states that the documents, rituals, organization, artwork, and architecture in the novel all exist. The "FACT" page makes no statement whatsoever about any of the ancient theories discussed by fictional characters. Interpreting those ideas is left to the reader.

ironweed
11-23-2005, 03:00 PM
I thought the most bizarre bit was how Dan Brown made some strange connection between the Merovingians and Jesus. (That and his two page long chapters. ;) ) I'm under the impression that the Merovingians as a group were amongst the most vicious slavers, murderers, etc., of the early Dark Ages. Been a bit since I read the novel, so I don't remember exactly what the connection was, but I'd be interested in reading anything anyone has about that.

Felix the Cat
11-23-2005, 07:33 PM
I have not read this book, nor do I intend to...

Kodos
11-23-2005, 08:04 PM
I thought the most bizarre bit was how Dan Brown made some strange connection between the Merovingians and Jesus. (That and his two page long chapters. ;) ) I'm under the impression that the Merovingians as a group were amongst the most vicious slavers, murderers, etc., of the early Dark Ages. Been a bit since I read the novel, so I don't remember exactly what the connection was, but I'd be interested in reading anything anyone has about that.

My impression was that Clovis was an illiterate savage(along with the Franks in general) and his successors were extremely incompetent. Everyone was vicious at that time.

Lenny
11-24-2005, 12:29 AM
We are talking about sneaky insinuations here, willful mixing of fact and fiction that is propagated in mass medias all over the world. The popularity of this tripe is a classic example of "a lie getting halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on."



I didn't think that "Passion" was all that great either, but seriously. Do you think that bashing Catholicism is what Protestant Christianity is all about? It also involves smashing liars like Dan Brown and their revisionist claims about the denial of Jesus Christ's divinity by the early church.I sympathize with what you are trying to do here Petr but don't you think that the false teachings of Catholicism that are being presented as true Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church are more alarming than a fictional book by some clown named "Dan Brown"? It's my understanding that it is clearly a book of fiction, that can be found in the fiction section of a library or bookstore. Only a feeble-minded person would read a book of fiction like this and think it was "gospel".

Furthermore Dan Brown does not have a massive political oragnization like the vatican/RCC that works against sovereign nations to further its sinister goals :eek:

Empress Cheesatine
11-24-2005, 04:10 AM
All those books are crap. So what is new?

Petr
11-26-2005, 01:35 AM
http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1026


23 November
The Da Vinci Code XI

After creating, out of whole cloth, the idea that Constantine was busy running about the Roman Empire looking for at least 996 "original" gospels while promoting his edited versions of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Brown decides there is simply too much credibility lingering in this story, so he decides to shoot the last of it dead immediately. Enter the fellow I assume Tom Hanks is going to be playing, Robert Langdon, to add yet another incredible example of a-historical silliness to the very core of the Da Vinci Code fable:

"An interesting note," Langdon added. "Anyone who chose the forbidden gospels over Constantine's version was deemed a heretic. The word heretic derives from that moment in history. The Latin word haereticus means 'choice.' Those who 'chose' the original history of Christ were the world's first heretics." (234)

First, once again, there is not the slightest bit of historical foundation to this claim. None. Next, this is not a Latin term: it is Greek. The Greek terms ai`retiko,j, ai`reti,zw, and ai[resij are all found in the New Testament, long before Constantine. The verbal form does indeed mean "to choose," but not in the context Brown suggests. The term means "to choose or select for the purpose of showing special favor to or concern for," and is used in such passages as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in the context of God's choice of the elect: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." It refers not to choosing to believe mythical gospels that never existed, but choosing someone so as to give to them favor or grace. From this verbal idea, then, it comes to indicate divisions based upon choice in its substantival/adjectival forms. In fact, the very term "heretic" appears, in Greek, in the New Testament, a simple fact that anyone with the slightest concern for truth could have determined rather easily (in fact, it even appears in Plato!). It appears in Titus 3:10, "Reject a factious (ai`retiko.n) man after a first and second warning."

But outside of these rather obvious facts, there is another little historical problem for Brown's claim. A quick scan of the ecclesiastical Latin writings that predate Constantine likewise demonstrate Brown's lie. Off the top of my head I recalled one rather obvious example of the use of this term before Constantine, and there are many others. Around the beginning of the third century (for those challenged historically like Mr. Brown, that would be around AD 200) Tertullian wrote a book titled "Praescriptionibus adversus Haereticos," The Prescription Against Heretics. Once again, for fictional character Robert Langdon's benefit, the year 200 is, oh, about 125 years prior to AD 325, the date of the Council of Nicea. So, if, as we are told, the term "heretic" came from the time frame after Nicea where people were choosing to believe in gospels that never existed, how could Tertullian be using it in the title of his book? Yes, well, I'm sure Constantine is to blame for that as well.

posted at 16:25:28 on 11/23/05 by James R. White

daisy
11-26-2005, 01:54 AM
i never read the book or saw the da vinci code movie because i heard they had a crazy white albino in it. i have been avoiding it. maybe one day i will get brave and go watch them show another white albino in a bad light yet probally not any time soon.

Zrinski
11-26-2005, 02:55 AM
People need to get through their heads that 'Da Vinci Code' is fictional book. :rolleyes:

Sinclair
11-26-2005, 03:12 AM
I've avoided reading the book because I've heard that it's rubbish in terms of writing.

Petr
11-26-2005, 05:58 AM
People need to get through their heads that 'Da Vinci Code' is fictional book. :rolleyes:

I assure you that legions of Bible-illiterate (heck, just plain illiterate) slobs all over the world are going to take the claims this work at least half-seriously. No amount of elitist snickering is going to change that.

It precisely through this kind of mass-production-scale mixing of fact and fiction that false stereotypes are planted on public mind - like the idea that all medieval people believed in the flat earth.


Petr

Kodos
11-26-2005, 07:07 AM
But outside of these rather obvious facts, there is another little historical problem for Brown's claim. A quick scan of the ecclesiastical Latin writings that predate Constantine likewise demonstrate Brown's lie. Off the top of my head I recalled one rather obvious example of the use of this term before Constantine, and there are many others. Around the beginning of the third century (for those challenged historically like Mr. Brown, that would be around AD 200) Tertullian wrote a book titled "Praescriptionibus adversus Haereticos," The Prescription Against Heretics. Once again, for fictional character Robert Langdon's benefit, the year 200 is, oh, about 125 years prior to AD 325, the date of the Council of Nicea. So, if, as we are told, the term "heretic" came from the time frame after Nicea where people were choosing to believe in gospels that never existed, how could Tertullian be using it in the title of his book? Yes, well, I'm sure Constantine is to blame for that as well.

You can't do things like go after heretics unless you have state power behind you, as opposed to after you... this doesn't make sense to me.

Sinclair
11-26-2005, 12:53 PM
I assure you that legions of Bible-illiterate (heck, just plain illiterate) slobs all over the world are going to take the claims this work at least half-seriously. No amount of elitist snickering is going to change that.


Petr is right here. I'm an atheist, plain and simple, and yet I've got a copy of the Bible next to my bed. Understanding religion isn't just for the religious...

But of course, it's starting to appear that at least in the US, even Christians often don't seem to understand the Bible. There was an excellent article in "Harper's" on this topic during the summer.

Petr
11-26-2005, 02:07 PM
You can't do things like go after heretics unless you have state power behind you,

Yes you can - by practising total shunning, for example. How do you think that Jehovah's Witnesses keep their ranks in line?

You may also check here how Freemasons can make a life of an apostate or whistleblower a living hell without resorting to state power, relying on unofficial networking instead:


"Christopher explained that Masonry's nationwide organization of men from most walks of life provided one of the most efficient private intelligence networks imaginable. Private information on anybody in the country could normally be accessed very rapidly through endless permutations of masonic contacts - police, magistrates, solicitors, bank managers, Post Office staff ('very useful in supplying copies of a man's mail'), doctors, government employee bosses of firms and nationalized industries etc., etc. dossier of personal data could be built up on anybody very quickly. When the major facts of an individual's life were known, areas of vulnerability would become apparent. Perhaps he is in financial difficulties; perhaps he has some social vice - if married he might 'retain a mistress' or have proclivity for visiting prostitutes; perhaps there is something in his past he wishes keep buried, some guilty secret, a criminal offence (easily obtainable through Freemason police of doubtful virtue), or other blemish on his character: all these and more could be discovered via the wide-ranging masons network of 600,000 contacts, a great many of whom were disposed to do favours for one another because that had been their prime motive for joining.

...

I asked how this 'action' might be taken.

'Solicitors are very good at it,' said Christopher. 'Get your man involved in something legal - it need not be serious - and you have him.' Solicitors, I was told, are 'past masters' at causing endless delays, generating useless paperwork, ignoring instructions, running up immense bills, misleading clients into taking decisions damaging to themselves.

Masonic police can harass, arrest on false charges, and plant evidence. 'A businessman in a small community or person in public office arrested for dealing in child pornography, for indecent exposure, or for trafficking in drugs is at the end of the line,' said Christopher. 'He will never work again. Some people have committed suicide after experiences of that kind.'

Masons can bring about the situation where credit companies and banks withdraw credit facilities from individual clients and tradesmen, said my informant. Bank can foreclose. People who rely on the telephone for their work can be cut off for long periods. Masonic employees of local authorities can arrange for a person's drains to be inspected and extensive damage to be reported, thus burdening the person with huge repair bills; workmen carrying out the job can 'find' - In reality cause - further damage. Again with regard to legal matters, a fair hearing is hard to get when a man in ordinary circumstances is in financial difficulties. If he is trying to fight a group of unprincipled Freemasons skilled in using the 'network' it will be impossible because masonic Department of Health and Social Security and Law Society officials (see pp 189-90) can delay applications for Legal Aid endlessly."

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20782&highlight=freemasons


Petr

Kodos
11-26-2005, 06:32 PM
Yes you can - by practising total shunning, for example. How do you think that Jehovah's Witnesses keep their ranks in line?


I think they go farther then total shunning... more along the lines of what you accuse the masons of. Also if this is true... that the christians were fighting each other even while their religion was technically punishable by death( the enforcement level of this varied greatly)... it does make the early christians seem as bad and fanatical as Gibbon made them out.

Masonic police can harass, arrest on false charges, and plant evidence. 'A businessman in a small community or person in public office arrested for dealing in child pornography, for indecent exposure, or for trafficking in drugs is at the end of the line,' said Christopher. 'He will never work again. Some people have committed suicide after experiences of that kind.'

You'd have to really piss the collective body of masons off for them to do something like that to you.

Petr
11-26-2005, 07:11 PM
Also if this is true... that the christians were fighting each other even while their religion was technically punishable by death( the enforcement level of this varied greatly)... it does make the early christians seem as bad and fanatical as Gibbon made them out.

If you don't purge scumbags out of your movement, you are going to end up with a scumbag movement. Christian church was subjected to vicious infiltration campaign almost from the beginning by Gnostic cultists that would have suffocated it to its cradle if people with a sense of responsibility would have not taken necessary McCarthyesque steps to kick them out.

So it was not a fight between "Christians" but between Christians and pseudo-Christian Gnostics, whose spiritual heir Dan Brown is.

See how effective this propaganda is? You are here yourself unconsciously adopting the viewpoint that Dan Brown is pushing, namely that Gnostics were just as legitimate followers of Jesus (if not more) as the orthodox church members.


And besides, "fanaticism" in support of the right cause is a virtue. "Tolerance" is a virtue of nihilistic relativists like Freemasons, whose scummy notions gave birth to the "culture of civility," the totalitarian tolerance that is now destroying the Western civilization.


Petr

Kodos
11-26-2005, 07:25 PM
And besides, "fanaticism" in support of the right cause is a virtue. "Tolerance" is a virtue of nihilistic relativists like Freemasons, whose scummy notions gave birth to the "culture of civility," the totalitarian tolerance that is now destroying the Western civilization.

I know that freemasonry in 19th century England was associated with tories, reactionary politics, and xenophobia. Once again this doesn't seem to make sense.

Petr
11-26-2005, 07:35 PM
I know that freemasonry in 19th century England was associated with tories, reactionary politics, and xenophobia. Once again this doesn't seem to make sense.
Perhaps you are just refusing to see.

The Freemasons were the spearhead of the radical French Revolution with its militant secularism, and also played a large part in the American Revolution, propagating just mild secularism there instead.

Did you read that "Knights Kadosh" ritual? Rather illuminating reading.


Petr

Lenny
11-26-2005, 07:37 PM
nihilistic relativists like FreemasonsHow are Freemasons nihilistic relativists?

Petr
11-26-2005, 07:40 PM
How are Freemasons nihilistic relativists?

This way:

Universalism, that lie of the pit of hell, teaches that all men will be saved because of their intrinsic worth and value to God. Freemasonry, which is a particularly obnoxious form of this heresy, here flies its flag of universalism at high mast. THE ACCEPTANCE OF ALL RELIGIONS ARGUES THAT NO RELIGION IS TRUE. When a man believes that everything is true and that all religions are valid, he affirms his conviction that nothing is true and that all religions are equally vacuous. This is the belief of the secular humanist and of his brother, the occultist of the Masonic Lodge. Religion, i.e. Christianity, is "the maze of impostures, invented for the sole purpose of enslaving" man. The true Mason has as his purpose the freeing of man from this bondage. That is the bondage of revealed religion and the enthronement of man's reason, the only avenue to salvation.
http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1707


Petr

Kodos
11-26-2005, 07:45 PM
Perhaps you are just refusing to see.

The Freemasons were the spearhead of the radical French Revolution with its militant secularism, and also played a large part in the American Revolution, propagating just mild secularism there instead.

Did you read that "Knights Kadosh" ritual? Rather illuminating reading.

The American revolution yes its pretty common knowledge. never heard anything about the French revolution though. It actually started out as nearly all revolutions do with an uprising by the elite...( the catalyst was Louis XVI bankrupting the country with war with England and supporting the American revolution and then calling the Estates-General), im not sure how any cabal could have orchestrated that. While I think America may have been better off with a Hong Kong like status... as far as revolutions go the American Revolution turned out better then most.

My general feeling about freemasonry is that no organization so hated by the Roman Curia can be all bad...

Petr
11-26-2005, 08:00 PM
My general feeling about freemasonry is that no organization so hated by the Roman Curia can be all bad...
"So in the great Mauritanian tradition he joined the wrong side of the big war, using that dumb old proverb, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." You know, if there's a stupider saying in the world I'd like to know what it is. The enemy of your enemy is NOT usually your friend. The enemy of your enemy is usually also your enemy. Duh!"

http://www.exile.ru/2005-September-23/you_want_anarchy.html


Petr

Felix the Cat
11-26-2005, 08:47 PM
Petr, you should be grateful for small mercies

At least this Dan Brown guy has not chosen to launch a Religion on the back of his bestselling book

I'm sure the Church of Da Vinci would immediately acquire thousands of eager members, if such a thing were created

Kodos
11-26-2005, 08:48 PM
Petr, you should be grateful for small mercies

At least this Dan Brown guy has not chosen to launch a Religion on the back of his bestselling book

I'm sure the Church of Da Vinci would immediately acquire thousands of eager members, if such a thing were created

If L Ron Hubbard could do it...

Sinclair
11-26-2005, 09:34 PM
I hate to think what a religion founded by a hack pseudo-historical-fiction-slash-thriller writer would be like, as opposed to Scientology's hack sci-fi writer...

Lenny
11-27-2005, 02:31 AM
This way:

http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1707Freemasonry is just a fraternal organization that does charity work and such, just because they are not institutionally Christian does not automatically make them bad or evil. I would hazard to guess that most freemasons are Protestant-Christian anyway

hail Protestant-Freemasons :cool:

Petr
11-27-2005, 02:17 PM
Freemasonry is just a fraternal organization that does charity work and such, just because they are not institutionally Christian does not automatically make them bad or evil. I would hazard to guess that most freemasons are Protestant-Christian anyway

hail Protestant-Freemasons :cool:

That's just the low-level Masons, Lenny. You seem to refuse the comprehend the pyramid structure of esoteric organizations. Just like members of you local Catholic church are hardly actively conspiring against Protestants.

Do you have any personal or familial Masonic connections, Lenny? That would explain your defensiveness.

The more these guys manage to infiltrate your organization, the harder it will be to eventually get rid of them...


http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pastorl.html


A SBC Pastor tells of his continual harrassment by Masons for openly teaching about Freemasonry's incompatability with Christianity


From: PastorL
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005
Subject: Masons. I confront them as a pastor...former SBC
To: mason_stoppers@yahoo.com

Hello,

Glad I found your site. I began confronting Masons in 1993 as a young Bible college student and Southern Baptist minister to be. They literally blackballed me I was told by "ex Masons" who knew...this was in SC at the time during my first Pastorate. My story goes similar to the men on Eph 5: 11 web site. I moved back to NC and began working at [redacted] senior center in [redacted] where Masons from my ex home church (SBC) and other Masons would come in gloating...I would discuss their secrets with them as I would get there locker keys and towels (I had been voted out from the church by them in SC and moved back to NC) they would get furious as I mentioned the passwords like Tubalcain and Mahabone, Hiram etc. One came right to me at the counter and said I better be careful from now on and gave me a cut throat symbol only to be rebuked by his partner....

I still plead with my mother who attends this church to get out. I still remember these men coming and taunting the pastor at business meetings as a young man. I knew something evil was going on. Now I know what it was.

I am now in [redacted] Ohio working at a large [redacted] near [redacted] for the past few months because the old "cornerstone" Mason at [redacted] got me in trouble causing me to resign...(I am Pastor/ founder of a Bible Church in [redacted] now, because Masonic trouble at the church I came up to pastor in another town)...my fist week at [redacted] I debated a Mason and to make a long story short, they have been coming in weekly to "complain" or they send their wives in to complain like at [redacted], [redacted], and now [redacted]! ....Of course [founder] was a Mason and these mad Masons in Ohio want me out bad! It is truly BIZARRE. I spared many details...could probably be a mini-series!

Sadly, even several "Fundamental" (OBF and the IFCA) groups of Pastors have distanced themselves from me now because I do confront "Christian" Masons. They have in-laws who are Masons and some have Masons in their church but will not confront the issue. Ironically these men proudly separated from from "New" evangelicals for biblical reasons of separation but now separate from me!

Grace and peace,

Pastor L.
[redacted] Bible Church
[redacted]
[redacted], OH [redacted]
() [redacted]

"I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth"

3 John 4



From: PastorL
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005
Subject: Re: Masons. I confront them as a pastor...former SBC
To: mason_stoppers@yahoo.com


Hello,

Thanks for your response...good info, I may do some of it. I was fired last Weds by the [redacted] Manager at [redacted] because of "customer complaints". They are fighting my unemployment claim too. Here is some of the letter I gave the [redacted] manager and was sent to headquarters in Dallas because I appealed my termination ...and lost..they said there was no "conspiracy" by these "Masosnics"...

encl:[redacted]


Petr

Vindex
11-27-2005, 03:10 PM
Iam still thinking of joining the Masons since I could get in as a Lious, easy access to social connections, and maybe move up the rung too. But the hard part is Iam too lazy to commit the tomes of mystic mubojumbo to memory, they have.

Vindex
11-27-2005, 03:12 PM
Yeah the few years Franklin was in France getting support for the American revolution he lived in the big head Free Mason lodge in Paris.


Perhaps you are just refusing to see.

The Freemasons were the spearhead of the radical French Revolution with its militant secularism, and also played a large part in the American Revolution, propagating just mild secularism there instead.

Did you read that "Knights Kadosh" ritual? Rather illuminating reading.


Petr

Kodos
11-27-2005, 05:47 PM
That's just the low-level Masons, Lenny. You seem to refuse the comprehend the pyramid structure of esoteric organizations. Just like members of you local Catholic church are hardly actively conspiring against Protestants.

Masonry lacks the military chain of command structure the catholic church has... Masons at the lowest levels do not take an oath of absolute obedience( they take oaths for certain things) to some central authority and those it shall appoint over you... the way every catholic who is anything other then a layperson does.

Lenny
11-27-2005, 10:21 PM
That's just the low-level Masons, Lenny. You seem to refuse the comprehend the pyramid structure of esoteric organizations. Just like members of you local Catholic church are hardly actively conspiring against Protestants.

Do you have any personal or familial Masonic connections, Lenny? That would explain your defensiveness.Petr there is a big freemason temple near where I live, not a low-level small lodge but a massive temple. You know what? They give tours of their building to non-freemasons! Though I've never been in there I know people who have (non-freemasons). So considering that openness, I think it's just crazy to say that this is some conspiratorial conniving group out to destroy the Christian religion and exert political power over the world secrectly or whatever it is they're accused of doing

I very much doubt that the vatican would let ordinary people wander around in their halls...

Petr
11-27-2005, 10:47 PM
Petr there is a big freemason temple near where I live, not a low-level small lodge but a massive temple. You know what? They give tours of their building to non-freemasons!

I very much doubt that the vatican would let ordinary people wander around in their halls...

You are comparing apples and oranges. Surely Protestants are allowed to visit Catholic cathedrals?


Petr

Kodos
11-27-2005, 11:33 PM
You are comparing apples and oranges. Surely Protestants are allowed to visit Catholic cathedrals?


Petr

The question I would ask Lenny( having little direct experience with Masons as Massachussetts is not a very Protestant area) is will they let you see their records? The Vatican has a huge archive almost nobody gets into...

Lenny
11-28-2005, 09:14 PM
The question I would ask Lenny( having little direct experience with Masons as Massachussetts is not a very Protestant area) is will they let you see their records? The Vatican has a huge archive almost nobody gets into...I've never been in the Masonic temple so I dont know for sure, I'm not even sure what sort of records you mean. I do know that anybody can wander in to this place at any time during daylight hours.

They do have a vast library open to the public, maybe that's what you mean

Petr
12-03-2005, 01:34 AM
http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1070


28 November
The Da Vinci Code XII

We have already seen that Brown relies heavily upon a highly doubtful, uncritical, easily challenged view of extra-biblical sources such as the Nag Hammadi Library and various other gnostic-influenced works. Ironically, Brown contradicts himself once again in his statements immediately following the embarrassing "heretic" comment on page 234. Here Brown speaking as Teabing says that "some of the gospels that Constantine attempted to eradicate managed to survive." And what does he refer to? First he mentions the Dead Sea Scrolls, which, of course, are Jewish in nature and origin, not Christian. Now, if he would like to argue that 7Q5 is, in fact, a fragment of the Gospel of Mark, making the DSS relevant, that's fine---that would only destroy his entire thesis once again, putting Mark's writing within a few years of the events themselves. But obviously, that is not his intention, so, even mentioning the DSS is utterly irrelevant. Next he lists the Nag Hammadi finds, which of course contain some of his favorite sources, all from the second century, of course. He claims that both the DSS and the Nag Hammadi library tell "the true Grail story." I'm sure those working on the Dead Sea Scrolls need to be informed of this, since they would not have any idea of that otherwise! And one thing can be said with all certainty regarding the Nag Hammadi Library: there is no single story, no single position, to be found in that collection of works. They were not "gospels" representing the early Christian religion amongst the "thousands" Brown has alleged: they are the works of those who sought to pervert and change the faith, joining elements of Christianity with foreign beliefs.

Brown goes on to claim the DSS and Nag Hammadi finds "speak of Christ's ministry in very human terms" (234). Again, I would love to see where the DSS speak of Christ's ministry period, but be that as it may, in reality, once you leave the inspired text, you can find anything you want in second century writings about Christ. In fact, the deity of Christ is prominent in these works. The Docetics, for example, loved to speculate on what Christ would be like as a god (without a true physical body), and some of their myths and legends even ended up in the Qur'an! Surahs 3:49 and 5:110 both make reference to Jesus allegedly making birds of clay come alive, a story found in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas:

The stories of Thomas the Israelite, the Philosopher, concerning the works of the Childhood of the Lord.

I. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell unto you, even all the brethren that are of the Gentiles, to make known unto you the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, even all that he did when he was born in our land: whereof the beginning is thus:

II. 1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things (or made them). And there were also many other little children playing with him.

3 And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and hath polluted the Sabbath day. 4 And Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Wherefore doest thou these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping. 5 And when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

Sorry, but that doesn't sound like an overly "human" Jesus vs. a divine Jesus (in the context in which Brown is speaking). Brown alleges,

The scrolls highlight glaring historical discrepancies and fabrications, clearly confirming that the modern Bible was compiled and edited by men who possessed a political agenda---to promote the divinity of the man Jesus Christ and use His influence to solidify their own power base. (234)

Actually, to anyone familiar with these disparate, contradictory, second-century sources, that anyone could possibly think them relevant to Brown's fanciful theories is what is truly amazing. These sources contain a "divine" Jesus to begin with! Has Brown not even read these sources himself? The massive leap from "gnostics wrote second century documents" to "the Bible was compiled and edited (in the days of Constantine) by men who possessed a political agenda---to promote the divinity of the man Jesus Christ" is simply breathtaking. Brown doesn't bother attempting to provide a foundation----there is none, of course. But given the complete lack of foundation to this point, and the pile of utter falsehoods we have already documented, we are still left to wonder just how the upcoming film will handle quotes like this, and how many people will fall for them, hook, line, and sinker, so that you will find yourself hearing this kind of rhetoric repeated back to you when you seek to share the message of life with others?

posted at 13:51:02 on 11/28/05 by James R. White

Earl_Cerberus
12-03-2005, 09:58 AM
I know that freemasonry in 19th century England was associated with tories, reactionary politics, and xenophobia. Once again this doesn't seem to make sense.

Originally Freemasonry was designed as an Elitist Organization. What its original aims were is subject to much debate (most likely keeping Pagan Knowledge in circulation), however right before the French Revolution the Freemasons were infiltrated by The Illuminati. The Illuminati agenda is essentially to create a New World Order of suicidal tolerance and multi-culturalism. This helps to explain alot of the differences between the American Revolution (to create Rights for the Individual) and the French Revolution (to create egalitarianism) One was started by Freemasons, the other by Illuminated Freemasons.

When word of the Illuminati got out to the US this created an immediate 'Illuminati Scare' and the subsequent formation of the first third party movement known as the Anti-Masonic Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Masonic_Party)

Earl_Cerberus
12-03-2005, 10:06 AM
It is better that people read 'The Da Vinci Code' then the jew book.

Lenny
12-03-2005, 12:19 PM
It is better that people read 'The Da Vinci Code' then the jew book.I take it you are not the real cerberus.

Petr
12-05-2005, 09:15 AM
http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1075


03 December
The Da Vinci Code XIII


Like a true post-modernist, Brown then inserts a discussion about how modern Vatican is made up of "pious men who truly believe these contrary documents (i.e., Nad Hammadi, DSS, noted in the preceding section) could only be false testimony." But it is Teabing's response that reveals Brown's true feelings:

"As you can see, our professor has a far softer heart for Rome than I do. Nonetheless, he is correct about the modern clergy believing these opposing documents are false testimony. That's understandable. Constantine's Bible has been their truth for ages. Nobody is more indoctrinated than the indoctrinator."

"What he means," Langdon said, "is that we worship the gods of our fathers."

"What I mean," Teabing countered, "is that almost everything our fathers taught us about Christ is false. As are the stories about the Holy Grail." (235)

Do not miss the point: almost everything "our fathers" taught us about Christ is not "debatable" or anything else. It is false. And based upon what? The Dead Sea Scrolls (which do not contain gospels anyway), the Nag Hammadi Library gnostic gospels, and enough utter historical rubbish to dizzy the mind.

I note in passing that I saw a blurb on the net a few days ago that puts this kind of rhetoric in perspective: between June of 2004 and June of 2005 Dan Brown made $76,500,000.00 off of this book. Seventy six and a half million dollars. Lies sell.

From this point the narrative moves away from the Bible and the history of the Christian faith for a period of discussion of Da Vinci and his paintings. After introducing the Grail concept, Brown via Langdon begins to promote his "divine feminine" theology:

The Grail is literally the ancient symbol for womanhood, and the Holy Grail represents the sacred feminine and the goddess, which of course has now been lost, virtually eliminated by the Church. The power of the female and her ability to produce life was once very sacred, but it posed a threat to the rise of the predominately male Church, and so the sacred feminine was demonized and called unclean. It was man, not God, who created the concept of 'original sin,' whereby Eve tasted of the apple and caused the downfall of the human race. Woman, once the sacred giver of life, was now the enemy. (238)

Brown misrepresents even the doctrines he attacks, as here. He confuses the simple fact of the fall with the doctrine of original sin and its transmission to Adam's offspring; further, he thinks this somehow makes the woman "the enemy." Now surely, if Brown's sole target is Roman Catholicism and medieval theology, there is plenty to complain about therein, to be sure. Medieval theologians speculated, outside the realm of Scripture, on all sorts of things, and were indeed laboring under a grossly sub-biblical view of sexuality, marriage, etc. (a grossly sub-biblical view still represented today in the Roman view of a celibate priesthood). But "men" did not "make up" the doctrine of original sin, no matter how tortured Brown's understanding of it. The universal sinfulness of man is central to the entire Bible's view of sin, atonement, God's wrath, the existence of death, etc. Brown's thesis is nothing more than a complete rejection of biblical teaching in favor of simple ancient paganism, nothing more. But to attempt to resuscitate ancient goddess worship on the back of a pile of lies about Constantine and the Bible (while making seventy six million in the process) is simply reprehensible.


posted at 01:00:00 on 12/03/05 by James R. White