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Felix the Cat
11-21-2006, 07:31 PM
http://washingtontimes.com/world/20061120-115904-9135r.htm

MOSCOW -- Low domestic birthrates and rising immigration from the former Soviet republics are producing explosive growth in Russia's Muslim community, which is on a track to account for more than half the population by midcentury.

Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union," said Paul Goble, a specialist on Islam in Russia and research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.

Two decades ago, the Sobornaya Mosque was the only Islamic house of worship allowed in the Soviet Union. It stood largely empty, filling only with the occasional large foreign delegation from an Islamic country.

Today, it is one of four mosques in Moscow serving a Muslim population of about 2.5 million. On Fridays and holy days, it overflows with worshippers, leaving many to kneel on newspapers outside, their foreheads pressed against the concrete.

As in many countries with growing Islamic populations, tensions are also on the rise. Many ethnic Russians fear their country is losing its traditional identity, while many Muslims are offended by widespread discrimination and a lack of respect for their faith.

Russia's Muslim community is extremely diverse, including Volga Tatars, the myriad ethnicities of the North Caucasus and newly arrived immigrants from Central Asia. But they all share birthrates that are far higher than Russia's ethnic Slavs, most of whom are Orthodox Christians.

Russia's overall population is dropping at a rate of 700,000 people a year, largely because of the short life spans and low birthrates of ethnic Russians. According to the CIA World Factbook, the national fertility rate is 1.28 children per woman, far below what is needed to maintain the country's population of nearly 143 million. The rate in Moscow is even lower, at 1.1 children per woman.

Russia's Muslims, however, are bucking that trend. The fertility rate for Tatars living in Moscow is six children per woman, Mr. Goble said, while the Chechen and Ingush communities are averaging 10 children per woman. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Muslims from Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan have been flocking to Russia in search of work.

Russia's Muslim population has increased by 40 percent since 1989, to about 25 million. By 2015, Muslims will make up a majority of Russia's conscript army and by 2020 one-fifth of the population.

"If nothing changes, in 30 years, people of Muslim descent will definitely outnumber ethnic Russians," Mr. Goble said.

For many Slavic Russians, the prospect of becoming a minority in their country is terrifying.

"Russia is historically a Slavic, Orthodox Christian land, and we need to make sure it stays that way," said Alexander Belov, the head of the Movement Against Illegal Immigration, an increasingly powerful lobby that has organized dozens of rallies in recent months.

Attacks on mosques have been on the rise, and in September an imam in the southern city of Kislovodsk was fatally shot outside his home. During days of rioting in August, mobs chased Chechens and other migrants out of the northwestern town of Kondopoga.

Sensing the nationalist mood, Russian authorities have begun to crack down with laws designed to defend Orthodox Christianity and restrict the activities and movement of Muslims.

Most Muslims living in Russia are not immigrants, but natives of lands seized by the expanding Russian empire. Islam is recognized as one of Russia's official religions, along with Orthodox Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism.

But few nationalists distinguish between immigrants from ex-Soviet countries and non-Slavic Russian citizens. Mr. Belov, for example, said non-Slavs should be restricted from living in "traditional Russian lands."

"The Muslims of Russia have roots here. We have been part of Russia for centuries," countered Rusham Abbyasov, a spokesman for Russia's Council of Muftis, which represents Islamic spiritual leaders in the country. "It is not right to say that Russia is a Christian country. These people either don't know the history, or they are ignoring it."

Mr. Goble said that after decades of Soviet religious repression, most Muslims in Russia are secular. But with interest in Islam surging, they are open to being influenced by extremist ideas, "especially if they feel excluded from Russian society."

Western governments should encourage Russia to integrate Muslims into society and avoid discrimination, he said. "When Muslims are in the majority in Russia, they'll remember whether we spoke out for their rights or failed to."

kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman
11-21-2006, 07:46 PM
For many Slavic Russians, the prospect of becoming a minority in their country is terrifying.
I think Mexicans are bad enough...

while many Muslims are offended by widespread discrimination and a lack of respect for their faith.
of course


Most Muslims living in Russia are not immigrants, but natives of lands seized by the expanding Russian empire.
Well then maybe some new Republics should be formed.

Northern_Paladin
11-21-2006, 07:47 PM
An increase in Russian birth rates would be the only viable long term solution.




Western governments should encourage Russia to integrate Muslims into society and avoid discrimination, he said. "When Muslims are in the majority in Russia, they'll remember whether we spoke out for their rights or failed to."

It's that kind of attitude that is leading the West to ruin.

Jimbo Gomez
11-21-2006, 07:56 PM
Western governments should encourage Russia to integrate Muslims into society and avoid discrimination, he said. "When Muslims are in the majority in Russia, they'll remember whether we spoke out for their rights or failed to."

A not so subtle threat.

Sulla the Dictator
11-21-2006, 08:04 PM
Russia thinks its very clever by supporting states like Iran or Syria.

We'll see how clever that was in 2050.

Jimbo Gomez
11-21-2006, 08:07 PM
Russia thinks its very clever by supporting states like Iran or Syria.

We'll see how clever that was in 2050.


I doubt their foreign policy has any effect at all on the birthrates of those filthy buggers within the Russian borders.

Winston
11-21-2006, 08:12 PM
Russia thinks its very clever by supporting states like Iran or Syria.

We'll see how clever that was in 2050.

What is it you foresee occurring by 2050? Do you consider it a bad thing to have a large Muslim population?

Sulla the Dictator
11-21-2006, 09:21 PM
I doubt their foreign policy has any effect at all on the birthrates of those filthy buggers within the Russian borders.

I don't think it does. But Russia's little 'spite America' approach is going to bite them in the ass when we're out of the region, and the Iranian regime needs a new boogieman to screech about and crusade against for 'muslim liberation'.

Both China AND Russia are going to find themselves dealing with that as they continue to engage in coitus with these repulsive states. Its really a matter of time, and its in the interests of half of the region.

The Saudis, especially, have an interest in hurting the sponsors of any Iranian power grab. And the entire Southern swath of Russia is riddled with Islamic populations, most of whom I believe are Sunni. While Russia is still fighting the Cold War, its going to have a rude awakening when it realizes what century its in.

Sulla the Dictator
11-21-2006, 09:26 PM
What is it you foresee occurring by 2050?


I forsee 3 or 4 versions of Chechnya.


Do you consider it a bad thing to have a large Muslim population?

"Muslim populations" are not the same. I do not consider most of AMERICA'S muslim population to be a grave threat, because America attracted relatively affluent and educated muslims (Particularly from Persia).

Moreover, these are not immigrants. These are conquered regions. So beyond the fact that they're muslim, you have ethnic and nationalist tendancies too.

The Russians would have been wise to have been of real assistance to the west in this instance. Instead, they continued with their rather petty efforts to sabotage us for rather flimsy temporary gains.

Petr
11-21-2006, 09:39 PM
Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union," said Paul Goble, a specialist on Islam in Russia and research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.
This article can be very definitely classified as neocon anti-Russian propaganda - psychological warfare - that is supposed to convince us about Russia's utter weakness.

See this article for the context:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14374&highlight=ames

"If Newsweek is right about anything, it's that stories about Russia do follow a predictable theme. And that theme is this: they all sound like the Newsweek article. Which is to say, they're all desperately scrambling for a way to convince themselves that Russia is not getting back on its feet, while at the same time, Russia is a menace.

... The nerve of Russia to both reject the US, to get back on its feet without our help (indeed in spite of what we've done here), and then, to top it all off, to publicly display confidence!

Suddenly Uncle Sam is turned into Yosemite Sam, steaming red and stomping around, shaking his fist at Bugs Russia: "Why you no good varmint! I'll show you confidence! I'm a gonna blast your self-confidence intah smithereens! Yup, I'll fill our newspapers with articles callin' yuh 'weak'! That's right! 'Weak'! Yuh hear that? Yer 'really weak,' even, Russia! Now how's that self-confidence of yers doin', yuh long-eared galoot! Mwah-hah-hah!""


As one poster on American Renaissance commented:

"Paul Goble is a seasoned Yankee propagandist and Russophobe. He’s not someone who is likely to be objective nor accurate in his assessments. He a “so called expert”."

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/03/analyst_predict.php

The fertility rate for Tatars living in Moscow is six children per woman, Mr. Goble said, while the Chechen and Ingush communities are averaging 10 children per woman.
Goble overplays his hand and forfeits his credibility with his ridiculous claims about Muslim fertility. I have seen Russians saying that Volga Tatars have only marginally bigger birthrates than ethnic Russians.


CIA Factbook on birthrates in the Islamic countries of the area - if anything, Muslims who have grown in the secular Soviet atmosphere should have even lower fertility than this:


Azerbaijan:

Total fertility rate:
2.46 children born/woman (2006 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/aj.html#People


Turkey:

Total fertility rate:
1.92 children born/woman (2006 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html#People


Uzbekistan: (the biggest of ex-Soviet Muslim states)

Total fertility rate:
2.91 children born/woman (2006 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uz.html#People


The moral of the story: don't believe everything you read!


Petr

Petyr Baelish
11-22-2006, 12:12 AM
Goble overplays his hand and forfeits his credibility with his ridiculous claims about Muslim fertility. I have seen Russians saying that Volga Tatars have only marginally bigger birthrates than ethnic Russians.


Volga Tatars are very culturally Russified, and most are only nominally Muslim. The ones I've met drink vodka by the liter, and have never even seen a Qu'aran in their lives.

Rakhmetov
01-04-2007, 02:47 AM
What's the big deal? Why doesn't Russia just get rid of Muslim territories in order to have a homogenous Velikorusskii society? Chechnya is not connected to Russian heritage and should therefore cease to be a part of Russia.

Kodos
01-04-2007, 02:56 AM
An increase in Russian birth rates would be the only viable long term solution.

THIS STUPID FUCKING THEORY AGAIN. THIS STUPID FUCKING THEORY MUST DIE.

WE CANNOT WIN A BREEDING CONTEST WITH THESE PEOPLE.

You have to keep out sterilize and if nessecary kill.


Russia's Muslim population has increased by 40 percent since 1989, to about 25 million. By 2015, Muslims will make up a majority of Russia's conscript army

VERY bad.

Kodos
01-04-2007, 02:58 AM
Volga Tatars are very culturally Russified, and most are only nominally Muslim. The ones I've met drink vodka by the liter, and have never even seen a Qu'aran in their lives.

So they are muslims like Albanians are muslims?

Are the Kazakhs etc the same way?

VAMPIR
01-05-2007, 05:58 PM
Russia thinks its very clever by supporting states like Iran or Syria.

We'll see how clever that was in 2050.
And not only Russia... Western Europe will suffer from Islam cancer till 2050 too. Maybe not strong as Russia will if things continue to develop that way, but not much better... But I hope that one big world clash will solve many problems of that kind.

VAMPIR
01-05-2007, 06:01 PM
So they are muslims like Albanians are muslims??
Big part of Albanians are dedicated to muslim faith. If you mean that smuglers and PIMP scum in west Europe represent Alb faith right way, you're wrong.

Count Sudoku
01-05-2007, 06:41 PM
An increase in Russian birth rates would be the only viable long term solution.

While increasing Russian birth rates would be helpful, the only real solution is to give the non-Russians their own territory and ship them there (give them their own countries if necessary).

Isra'il Yahya
01-06-2007, 01:04 PM
While increasing Russian birth rates would be helpful, the only real solution is to give the non-Russians their own territory and ship them there (give them their own countries if necessary).

Many of them belong to ethnic republics in areas of the Russian Federation. I think that it would be a good solution to let them have the muslims, the Finno-Ugrics, and others have small truly independent countries.

Count Sudoku
01-06-2007, 05:16 PM
Many of them belong to ethnic republics in areas of the Russian Federation. I think that it would be a good solution to let them have the muslims, the Finno-Ugrics, and others have small truly independent countries.

Unless these areas have a ton of gold or oil in them, the most sensible thing to do would be to cut them loose. It might still make sense to cut them loose even if they do have a ton of oil or anything that makes them valuable.

Isra'il Yahya
01-07-2007, 12:27 AM
Unless these areas have a ton of gold or oil in them, the most sensible thing to do would be to cut them loose. It might still make sense to cut them loose even if they do have a ton of oil or anything that makes them valuable.

Well, they could just control the corporations, siphon most of the value, and work towards a more equitable relationship.

Petr
06-18-2007, 09:04 PM
By 2015, Muslims will make up a majority of Russia's conscript army and by 2020 one-fifth of the population.
Here's some antidote to this neocon propaganda:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=388876&postcount=7


Petr