The Arians

[Billy Score]

Arian "heresy" was one of the first major schismatic movements within the church. I have always found it somewhat interesting and, its anti trinitarianism is quite logical and rational. The below is the "Creed of Wulfilas", which in a sense is a response to the Nicene Creed.

"I believe that there is only one God the Father, alone unbegotten and invisible, and in His only-begotten Son, our Lord andGod, creator and maker of all things, not having any like unto Him. Therefore there is one God of all, who is also God of ourGod, And I believe in one Holy Spirit, an enlightening and sanctifying power. As Christ says after the resurrection to hisApostles: "Behold I send the promise of my Father upon you; but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until ye be clothed with powerfrom on high." (Luke 24.49) And again: "And ye shall receive power coming upon you by the Holy Spirit." (Acts 1.8) Neither Godnor Lord, but the faithful minister of Christ; not equal, but subject and obedient in all things to the Son. And I believe theSon to be subject and obedient in all things to God the Father."
Arianism was a Christological view held by followers of Arius, a Christian priest who lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 4th century. Arius taught that God the Father and the Son were not always contemporary, seeing the pre-incarnate Jesus as a divine being but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a "creature"; in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of "created being."

The conflict between Arianism and the Trinitarian beliefs that have since become dominant in Christianity was the first important doctrinal difficulty in the Church after the legalization of Christianity by Emperor Constantine I. At one point in the conflict, Arianism held sway in the family of the Emperor and the Imperial nobility; later, because the Arian Ulfilas was the apostle to the Goths, the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths arrived in western Europe already Christianized, but as Arians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

[jcs]

Question: why was Arianism a nonsensical heresy?
Answer: What is God?--the father, the creator? No, God is Oneness. What is Christ?--the son, the created? No, Christ is the Word, God incarnate, Divine-made-flesh, a symbol of what man should be (and what man already is...).

Trinitarianism as-such still misses the point, but at least it, unlike Arianism, is reconcilable with all sensible mysticism.

[Felix the Cat]

A thing can only be said to "exist" if it can be observed, sensed or inferred by reason

To a first century Greek platonist, trying to understand this strange new Jewish cult, the Trinity would have seemed quite logical

[jcs]

A thing can only be said to "exist" if it can be observed, sensed or inferred by reason
Redefining 'existence': (for the subject) a thing exists only if it can be conceived. If I believe in such-and-such, (for me) it exists. If I do not believe in such-and-such, (for me) it does not exist.
'Existence' is only a concept (and an unimportant one to worry about at that); only concepts 'exist.'

[Billy Score]

The gospel of John has a passage in which Jesus states that "the Father is Greater than i." This and the fact that Jesus WAS BORN and DIED implies that Jesus was finite. God always was, he was not born, he did not and cannot die. Jesus did both. how can a finite being be on par with god? Or not just on par, but BE god? It is illogical. Many prayers even state that "jesus is seated at the right hand of the father." This implies being high status but lower than God himself.

Arianism appealed to more people because notice the wording of that creed- It implied that that false gods existed in the heavens and more the idea that jesus was "our god" like the pagans. Pagans believed that all their gods existed and perhaps the gods of other peoples existed, but it didn't matter as the only god who cared was the one they sacrificed to (be it Ba'al or Jupiter or Zeus or Thor or any of the various pagan gods). Jesus was the "god" of the Arians. But his God was The Father. That is, at least how i see it. This resembles Cronus and Zeus in that sense.

[jcs]

The gospel of John has a passage in which Jesus states that "the Father is Greater than i." This and the fact that Jesus WAS BORN and DIED implies that Jesus was finite. God always was, he was not born, he did not and cannot die. Jesus did both. how can a finite being be on par with god? Or not just on par, but BE god? It is illogical. Many prayers even state that "jesus is seated at the right hand of the father." This implies being high status but lower than God himself.
How could God have a 'right hand'--he's infinite. Jesus is seated within the Father.
An easy way to deal with all this: flesh, the incarnation of God, is transient and finite; the soul is eternal. The eternal is infinite; the soul is God. One is inferior to God only insofar as an incarnate, a limiting, state renders one less than infinite.

[Billy Score]

How could God have a 'right hand'--he's infinite. Jesus is seated within the Father.


The above,according to the Nicene Creed and most trintarian doctrines, is heresy as it contradicts the Creed. However, he is "seated at the right hand" is simply meant to provide imagery and symbolize his being BELOW god (if i say someone is my "right hand man" then they are definitly my most trusted friend/associate but they are LOWER in status than I am).

An easy way to deal with all this: flesh, the incarnation of God, is transient and finite; the soul is eternal. The eternal is infinite; the soul is God. One is inferior to God only insofar as an incarnate, a limiting, state renders one less than infinite.

Yes, and you are saying Jesus is nothing more than "flesh." Moderate arians agreed that the Father and Jesus were the same in substance, but that God was simply .. the FATHER and higher. Jesus was the flesh and the flesh was weaker, inferior. It was holy but inferior.

[jasonlfunk]

Also when Jesus says "The Father is Greater then I" it merely shows that Jesus is obedient to the will of the Father, he is making to claim to higher or lower order. Also to belive this you have to dismiss Jesus' claims to divinity(John 8:58, Matthew 26:63-65, etc)

The trinity is not something that is easy to understand or to grasp. Three persons in one divine being, not a simple concept and it doesn't seem to be logical, but that does not make it any less true.

[Billy Score]

Also when Jesus says "The Father is Greater then I" it merely shows that Jesus is obedient to the will of the Father, he is making to claim to higher or lower order. Also to belive this you have to dismiss Jesus' claims to divinity(John 8:58, Matthew 26:63-65, etc)

The trinity is not something that is easy to understand or to grasp. Three persons in one divine being, not a simple concept and it doesn't seem to be logical, but that does not make it any less true.

If you are obedient, you are in a position of submission, you are the lesser. I am obediant to teachers because they have higher rank than me. We obey kings because we are subjects and they are kings. It is the same. Arians did not argue that Jesus was not Holy, but simply that he was not The Father, or the Godhead.

[jcs]

you are saying Jesus is nothing more than "flesh."
No. Man is not his flesh, but his soul.

If you are obedient, you are in a position of submission
I obey my will, as we all do. Willing is not of the flesh, but of the soul; in obeying myself, I obey God--and vice versa...

[daisy]

Arians did not argue that Jesus was not Holy, but simply that he was not The Father, or the Godhead.true i always thought some of the christian tv shows got carried away when they kept saying over and over all they need is Jesus. sounds like some of them worship Jesus more than God. i've watched whole christian tv shows where they never mention God any at all.