Pat Buchanan holocaust controversy

[Starr]

This is a very old article, obviously, but I have heard references made to this article and that it was interesting that Pat wrote something like this:

This May, Israel's Supreme Court will decide whether John Demjanjuk, the Cleveland auto worker convicted of being "Ivan the Terrible," the butcher of Treblinka who operated the gas chamber, follows Adolph Eichmann to the gallows.

Oddly, the closer Demjanjuk comes to death, the more certain his innocence appears. Had we known in 1980, when he was stripped of U.S. citizenship, what we know today, he would have walked out of his Cleveland courtroom a free man.

Just weeks ago, CBS' "60 Minutes" discovered Marianna Dudek in a village near Treblinkia. Did she remember "Ivan the Terrble"? Indeed she did: she had slept with him for the gold Ivan ha taken from the Jews, she said; his real name was Ivan Marchenko.

At the War Crimes Commission in Warsaw, CBS was shown a list of guards from Treblinka. Marchenko's name was on it; Demjanjuk's was not.

The only hard evidecnne against Demjanjuk remains the I.D. card from Trawniki training camp, which puts Demjanjuk in a different camp, Sobibor.

Late in the Jerusalem trial, we learned that the U.S. Justice Department had withheld evidence, dating to 1979, that another guard, Danilchenko, also recalled Demjanjuk at Sobibor in the same months Demjanjuk's accusers swear he was at Treblinka.

Now, a U. S. researcher has finished an exhaustive study of the I.D. card, and three like it from Soviet archives, delivered to Israel by Armand Hammer. All four are patent forgeries.

Demjanjuk's card, supposedly issued in mid-1942, is validated with the seal of SS-Brigadefuehrer Odilo Globocnik. But Himmler himself dismissed Globocnik in March of '42, while Demjanjuk was still in the Red Army.

Three of the cards, including Demjanjuk's, carry the stamp of the Waffen SS; but the Waffen SS did not take over Trawniki until 1943, a year after Demjanjuk supposedly departed.

On guard Juchnowoskij's card, his picture is reversed (buttons are on the left side of the blouse) while the numbers on the blouse are not reversed, proof the picture was composed in a lab.

One card bears the signature of a Corporal Teufel; Teufel had been promoted to sergeant three months before. The same card bears the signature of Capt. Hoefle; Hoefle had already been promoted to Major to carry out the deportation of the Warsaw Jews.

Moreover, graphic elements of the seals are grossly misaligned; the SS thunderbolts are wrongly printed in the Roman script; one stamp is upside down.

Nazi documents have been copied professionally for years; why, then, such clumsy forgeries? Simple: The KGB forgers had no authentic Trawniki card to work from.

But what about the eyewitnesses?

Well, among the atrocities for which Demjanjuk must hang is using a drill to bore into the rectum of prisoner Finkelstein. Only, in his 1945 sworn testimony, Finkelstein did not mention this.

Moreover, S. Reizman, the leader of the Treblinka prisoners, never mentioned any Ivan in his list of the Ukrainian personnel at Treblinka, compiled at meetings of survivors in Lodz on Nov 5, 1945.

Another witness at Demjanjuk's trial swore in 1945 and 1947 that he'd killed Ivan in 1943.

Is this collective perjury? No, something else. Since the war, 1,600 medical papers have been written on "The Psychological and Medical Effects of the Concentration Camps on Holocaust Survivors."

This so-called "Holocaust Survivor Syndrome" involves "group fantasies of martyrdom and heroics." Reportedly, half of the 20,000 survivor testimonies in Yad Vashem memorial in Jerusalem are considered "unreliable," not to be used in trials.


Finally, the death engine. During the war, the underground government of the Warsaw Ghetto reported to London that the Jews of Treblinka were being electrocuted and steamed to death.

The Israeli court, however, concluded that the murder weapon for 850,000 was the diesel engine from a Soviet tank which drove its exhaust into the death chamber. All died in 20 minutes, Finkenstein swore in 1945.

The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody. In 1988, 97 kids, trapped 400 feet underground in a Washington, DC tunnel while two locomotives spewed diesel exhaust into the car, emerged unharmed after 45 minutes.

Demjanjuk's weapon of mass murder cannot kill. The Soviet I.D. cards are patent forgeries. Polish witnesses say "Ivan" was another man; Israeli eyewitnesses contradict their own sworn statements, contradict one another, and are contradicted in turn.

And John Demjanjuk, bewildered and innocent, advances toward execution.

God help us. We are the Salem judges of our own time.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~jamie/buchanan/column.shtml

[Sulla the Dictator]

I invite everyone who believes in the benevolence of diesel engines to visit Manila, where people wear masks over their noses and mouths if they're on foot.

Pat Buchanan remains, as ever, an embarassing joke.

[Starr]

Pat is the man.:viking:
I am not really making a judgement on the reliability of what he is saying here. I just found it interesting that he has written an article of this type. I kept on coming across different things about him that were making a fuss about what was being referred to as revisionist statements and this peaked my curiosity. Is this the extent of it or is there more?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Pat is the man.:viking:
I am not really making a judgement on the reliability of what he is saying here. I just found it interesting that he has written an article of this type.

Its not interesting at all. He's the same type of droll middle class bigot thats been common in the 20th century. He bores me.

I mean, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about in regards to Treblinka. Before you 'question' something in an article, maybe he should have 'questioned' someone who could have 'clarified' things for him so that he doesn't come off like an imbecile.

There's a reason diesel engines are used on heavy machinery. It is safer, and more fuel efficient, on large machines than a normal engine would be. And MODERN diesel engines are better at checking emissions than HISTORICAL engines were (The idiot compares an engine in 1988 to an engine in 1942). But pump the exhaust into a room filled with people and its no mystery what will happen.

I don't understand why they give this idiot air time.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I kept on coming across different things about him that were making a fuss about what was being referred to as revisionist statements and this peaked my curiosity. Is this the extent of it or is there more?

The idiot made a statement in the early 90s that there were no such thing as gas vans. Something even David Irving has backtracked on.

So I guess the idiot might not 'disbelieve' in that any longer. Though who knows. He's remarkably stupid.

[Ahknaton]

I invite everyone who believes in the benevolence of diesel engines to visit Manila, where people wear masks over their noses and mouths if they're on foot.
Face masks don't filter out carbon monoxide.

[Starr]

Its not interesting at all. He's the same type of droll middle class bigot thats been common in the 20th century. He bores me.

He reminds me simply of a person with views from an earlier and better time.

[Burrhus]

Face masks don't filter out carbon monoxide.

But they do filter out particulate matter such as the soot that diesel engines emit. Diesel engines however emit very little carbon monoxide which is the gas that kills. That's why they are used in enclosed spaces such as deep shaft mines.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Face masks don't filter out carbon monoxide.

Nope. But they filter out many of the other pollutants that a tank engine would spew into a small, closed room.

[il ragno]

And MODERN diesel engines are better at checking emissions than HISTORICAL engines were (The idiot compares an engine in 1988 to an engine in 1942).

So why would everyone in Manila hold a mask over their nose and mouth in 2006?

[Ahknaton]

Why use an engine from a captured Soviet tank as well? That's a little odd. For starters, they wouldn't have parts etc, and secondly, they'd have to transport it from the front. Couldn't they just use a German diesel engine?

[calvin]

Pointing out that a diesel engine is less efficient than a petrol engine as an instrument of mass-extermination is perfectly reasonable. The explanation for their use provided by Sulla also seems to be perfectly reasonable. The only thing that is unreasonable is the shit storm of abuse, invective and condescension that is unleashed for even asking the question. As ever, the affirmers protesteth too much!

[eggheadbanga]

Does it not strike anyone as weird that a 15-year old storm in a teacup has been dredged up on this thread?

[Sulla the Dictator]

So why would everyone in Manila hold a mask over their nose and mouth in 2006?

The Philippines is less concerned with environmental hazards than Malibu California, and is a bit less strict on emissions.

Just a tad.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Why use an engine from a captured Soviet tank as well? That's a little odd. For starters, they wouldn't have parts etc, and secondly, they'd have to transport it from the front. Couldn't they just use a German diesel engine?

Why does any person or group of people in history do one thing instead of another? The Holocaust was an evolution of policy, not something carefully designed and constructed since 1934. That the engines were diesel is an assumption based on the fact that it was reportedly a tank engine. Considering some of the hurried nature of Soviet tank production, I'm not even sure if thats a certainty. As to your questions, they're obvious. Broken tanks were the booty of victories by powers with limited production (IE, Axis Powers and the Soviets, primarily). A tank whose undercarriage might be shot or whose turret was destroyed might have a functional or easily repairable engine. That engine would be offloaded for another vehicle or for this purpose.

The Germans PLANNED the resupply of their Romanian and Hungarian allies before Barbarossa with the idea of captured Soviet weaponry and equipment in mind. The Romanians complained bitterly that the Germans were STEALING the shares promised to them. Thus the answer to your other question, "Why not a German engine". A German engine wouldn't be wasted in a function like this. Also, the way in which this engine was used calls for the engine to be DIRTIER. There's no logical reason to use German parts or a German engine that you're deliberately using for the wrong reason.

Also, you're talking about Poland. The only activity the Germans managed to do which rivalled their butchery was their theft. It is no great task to take an engine off of a train thats headed from Belarus to Prussia loaded with industrial equipment and foodstuffs.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Does it not strike anyone as weird that a 15-year old storm in a teacup has been dredged up on this thread?

I hadn't read this thing from Buchanan. The only thing I had heard about was his gas van nonsense.

[cerberus]

AhknabashiWhy use an engine from a captured Soviet tank as well? That's a little odd. For starters, they wouldn't have parts etc, and secondly, they'd have to transport it from the front. Couldn't they just use a German diesel engine?
No major issues - trains which transported materials to the Armies in Russia would be used to transport back captured weapons , materials deemed useful - nothing new in this- no major problems.
Diesel engines - not used by the German Army - something which the navy made more use of.
Russian engines - plentiful by way of capture and by way of spare parts .
Storm in a tea cup - an old chesnut to toss around - "the same old same old".

[cerberus]

calvin.No, this is where I tell you that you are employing an obvious fallacy of logic; Irving did not employ Rudolf’s evidence, therefore Rudolf’s evidence was flawed. This is no more credible than the opposite claim, which is, that if Irving had employed Rudolf’s evidence he would have won his case. Irving is free now, if you really want to know why he didn’t use Rudolf’s evidence why don’t you email him?
calvin - there is no falcay of logic other than if you have something which can win your case , save you £2.5 million pounds, and expose something which you have staked your life on - it makes no sense to withold it ?
This is the falacy, what you do not mention - and that which Trojan does - the rebuttla which was put together to disarm and neuter Rudolfs claims .
This is why Irving did not present Rudolf.
clavin - I did email this to Mr. irving - he replied by putting me on his list of "traditional enemies".
He made no attempt to answer the question .
So you too doubt that Rudolf - which was used as grounds for granting an appeal would have proved useful - boviously it is not the document which you may have believed it to be.
If it is what you claim it to be , there is no way irving could have lost his case - no gassing - no case to answer - a lie would have been exposed.

[Ahknaton]

Storm in a tea cup - an old chesnut to toss around - "the same old same old".
Well, I'd never heard the explanation before. I'm not asking these questions in an adversarial way, I'm just legitimately curious. A lot of these Holocaust accounts do seem counter-intuitive when you first encounter them. But thanks for the explanations. Sulla also.

[calvin]

Does it not strike anyone as weird that a 15-year old storm in a teacup has been dredged up on this thread?

Due to the active suppression of information practiced by your chums in the holocaust lobby, it’s quite probable that this is the first time that some people have heard about it.

[eggheadbanga]

Due to the active suppression of information practiced by your chums in the holocaust lobby, it’s quite probable that this is the first time that some people have heard about it.

My, what trials and tribulations the OP must have gone through to find Buchanan's article on the interwebnet! Such suppression!

Buchanan's remarks are discussed in his Wikipedia entry, on several other web-pages from a critical point of view, in Lipstadt's book (also online) and in many other locations.

They're also discussed by Friedrich Paul Berg and several other revisionists

Use :google: ('Pat Buchanan diesel') and you'll find everything you could ever want, from both sides of the fence.

The question is surely why from a revisionist/WN perspective is it worth dredging up something Buchanan wrote more than 15 years ago as if it were 'news'? This is antediluvian stuff.

[Globus]

Face masks don't filter out carbon monoxide.

No, but they filter out the large noxious particles that poor quality diesels spew out, and that in a closed room crowded with human beings could certainly aid a process of suffocation--a result which likely caused many of the deaths.

[Globus]

But they do filter out particulate matter such as the soot that diesel engines emit. Diesel engines however emit very little carbon monoxide which is the gas that kills. That's why they are used in enclosed spaces such as deep shaft mines.

Any internal combustion engine can emit large amounts of CO. An improperly tuned diesel, or one whose air intake is partially blocked or is made to run very rich produces more than enough CO to kill.

[Winston]

I invite everyone who believes in the benevolence of diesel engines to visit Manila, where people wear masks over their noses and mouths if they're on foot.

Pat Buchanan remains, as ever, an embarassing joke.

Nobody has claimed that diesel fumes can't have a cumulative effect which is harmful to your health in the long term, or that breathing the fumes isn't unpleasant. This is completely irrelevant when we are talking about an execution method.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Nobody has claimed that diesel fumes can't have a cumulative effect which is harmful to your health in the long term, or that breathing the fumes isn't unpleasant. This is completely irrelevant when we are talking about an execution method.

LOL I'm not talking about 'unpleasant' or cumulative effect. I'm talking about repiratory distress. There were several times I entered into a coughing fit with the passing of one of those monsters. Run the engine in a closed room with a hundred people and you have a morgue.

[OVERWATCH]

A closed space which uses diesel exhaust to 'gas' people would need a vent or else backpressure would accumulate to the point that the engine would no longer run. However, such a vent need not be very large. Common sense among other things would dictate that since diesel exhaust does not emit breathable oxygen, that death would occur to occupants of the closed space due to hypoxia (and respiratory distress, as noted above).

[eggheadbanga]

A closed space which uses diesel exhaust to 'gas' people would need a vent or else backpressure would accumulate to the point that the engine would no longer run. However, such a vent need not be very large. Common sense among other things would dictate that since diesel exhaust does not emit breathable oxygen, that death would occur to occupants of the closed space due to lack of oxygen (and respiratory distress, as noted above).

Asphyxiation through lack of oxygen would be as much of a killer as the CO, even if gasoline engine exhaust was used, if the chamber was especially crowded.

The revisionist 'heretic' Charles Provan pointed out that some witness statements say the bodies were discoloured blue at certain extremities and points, which is more a sign of asphyxiation, rather than red, which is supposedly the classic CO poisioning discolouration. However, modern medical experience has observed a virtual rainbow of colours produced by CO poisoning, and the 'classic' cherry-red discolouration is a relative rarity.

[delete]

A closed space which uses diesel exhaust to 'gas' people would need a vent or else backpressure would accumulate to the point that the engine would no longer run. However, such a vent need not be very large. Common sense among other things would dictate that since diesel exhaust does not emit breathable oxygen, that death would occur to occupants of the closed space due to hypoxia (and respiratory distress, as noted above).

You are in fact wrong. Diesel engines work with excess air and ignites the fuel-air mix with preassure.

The ratio of fuel to air will determine if the exhaust containes enough mainly CO and CO2 in the exhaust to be lethal. In a gasoline engine the ratio is high enough, but in diesels it is not.

It would be faster to kill them by just sealing the room, than by pumping in breathable, but irritating exhaust from dieselengines.

[Sulla the Dictator]

A closed space which uses diesel exhaust to 'gas' people would need a vent or else backpressure would accumulate to the point that the engine would no longer run. However, such a vent need not be very large. Common sense among other things would dictate that since diesel exhaust does not emit breathable oxygen, that death would occur to occupants of the closed space due to hypoxia (and respiratory distress, as noted above).

The most probable cause of death by occupants of chambers with such fuel exhaust was asphyxiation, I agree.

[Thomas777]

So I guess the idiot might not 'disbelieve' in that any longer. Though who knows. He's remarkably stupid.

Yeah. Buchanan is an "idiot". As a young man, he became a close confidante of President Nixon, he then went on to serve the Reagan administration, create the immensely popular "Crossfire" program on CNN, write five bestselling books, and publish his own monthly magazine. He sure sounds like a stupid man to me, Sulla.

[Thomas777]

Its not interesting at all. He's the same type of droll middle class bigot thats been common in the 20th century.
Those damn bigoted commoners...I mean who do they think they are?

He bores me.
You should fire Pat a letter...he HAS to know that its career suicide when your writing offends the aristocractic sensibilities of SullatheDictator.

I mean, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about in regards to Treblinka. Before you 'question' something in an article, maybe he should have 'questioned' someone who could have 'clarified' things for him so that he doesn't come off like an imbecile.
I don't think that he comes off like an imbecile. Buchanan began exploring this issue after the John Demanjuck fiasco...if you recall, Demanjuick was an innocent man who was persecuted and sentenced to death until he was grudgingly granted a repreive after overwhelming evidence was proffered (by Pat Buchanan and other parties) that he was in fact innocent of any wrongdoing. I believe that Buchanan began to doubt many of the claims of Holocaust activists after this event...and I don't blame him. People who will support the judicial execution of a man based upon speculation and hearsay are not credible people, IMO.

There's a reason diesel engines are used on heavy machinery. It is safer, and more fuel efficient, on large machines than a normal engine would be. And MODERN diesel engines are better at checking emissions than HISTORICAL engines were (The idiot compares an engine in 1988 to an engine in 1942). But pump the exhaust into a room filled with people and its no mystery what will happen.
I suppose this is debatable. I don't think that anybody denies that diesel exhaust can be fatal to humans...I think that the controversey revolves around whether or not a peculiar instrument could have operated as alleged. I would have to read more about the controversey before I render an opinion.


I don't understand why they give this idiot air time.

You harm your own credibility when you claim that Buchanan is an "idiot". Its completely fatuous.

Buchanan is given airtime because he is a bestselling author and a veteran commentator. His opinions represent the "Old Right" perspective and he stirs controversey. Not everybody wants to see B-rate, brain dead actors delivering the "news" or listen to FoxNews dittoheads like Sean Hannity spew out "tough guy" talk about the War in the middle east intersperesed with cliches and platitudes. Pat Buchanan is interesting and offers unique perspectives, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. I disagree with Buchanan on a great many things, but he is one of the smartest commentators out there and this is undeniable.

[OVERWATCH]

You are in fact wrong. Diesel engines work with excess air and ignites the fuel-air mix with preassure.

The ratio of fuel to air will determine if the exhaust containes enough mainly CO and CO2 in the exhaust to be lethal. In a gasoline engine the ratio is high enough, but in diesels it is not.

It would be faster to kill them by just sealing the room, than by pumping in breathable, but irritating exhaust from dieselengines.
Being a mechanic, I know how diesel engines work ;) the fact is, if they have too much backpressure on the exhaust side, it cannot aspirate properly on the intake stroke(i.e. vacuum drop in the intake) to draw in enough fuel-air mixture; unless they are forcibly aspirated with a turbocharger, and I highly doubt the alleged gas-vans in the 1940s were turbodiesels.

Enough noxious, oxygen deficient exhaust from a diesel, displacing breathable air will cause death by way of respiratory trauma and hypoxia, the CO level is irrelevant.

edit: even a turbodiesel will fail to continue running for the same reasons if the backpressure gets high enough.

[harjit]

I don't understand why they give this idiot air time.

The U.S. media is a clubby institution, and Pat is apparently an insider.

Normally someone as right-wing as Buchanan would be dismissed as a kook. He is sort of a harmless kook.

[Winston]

The U.S. media is a clubby institution, and Pat is apparently an insider.

Normally someone as right-wing as Buchanan would be dismissed as a kook. He is sort of a harmless kook.

There is nothing 'Kooky' about Pat. He's a voice of reason in an age when kooks rule.

[Thomas777]

The U.S. media is a clubby institution, and Pat is apparently an insider.

Normally someone as right-wing as Buchanan would be dismissed as a kook. He is sort of a harmless kook.

Please.

I don't like William Kristol...I find him to be a cynic, an ideologue, and profoundly misguided in his sympathies. However, he cannot properly be called a "kook".

Analagously, you may not like Pat Buchanan, but his resume speaks for itself.

[Starr]

There is nothing 'Kooky' about Pat. He's a voice of reason in an age when kooks rule.


Great and truthful line.

And no matter how much certain people would like to write him off as a kook, his experience, his style, his intelligence, would make it very difficult to do this. He also knows how to play the game without compromising his views in any significant way.

[Globus]

You are in fact wrong. Diesel engines work with excess air and ignites the fuel-air mix with preassure.

The ratio of fuel to air will determine if the exhaust containes enough mainly CO and CO2 in the exhaust to be lethal. In a gasoline engine the ratio is high enough, but in diesels it is not.

But it easy enough to adjust the fuel to air ratio to obtain lethal levels of CO.

[delete]

Being a mechanic, I know how diesel engines work ;) the fact is, if they have too much backpressure on the exhaust side, it cannot aspirate properly on the intake stroke(i.e. vacuum drop in the intake) to draw in enough fuel-air mixture; unless they are forcibly aspirated with a turbocharger, and I highly doubt the alleged gas-vans in the 1940s were turbodiesels.

Enough noxious, oxygen deficient exhaust from a diesel, displacing breathable air will cause death by way of respiratory trauma and hypoxia, the CO level is irrelevant.

edit: even a turbodiesel will fail to continue running for the same reasons if the backpressure gets high enough.

Then you probably know that backpreassure needs to be fairly high to achieve this, indicating that the gasschambers had to be able to stay sealed enough for the pressure needed to build up.

The engine would also have to be durable enough to take the strain from working sub-optimal during the gassing of 800.000 people.

You also have the claims that the procedure was done in minutes, and that the exhaust from a diesel was the killing agent.

The last nail in the coffin was how the hoaxers forgot german producer gass technology where CO-gass was used as the combustible gass in the engine.

Starve any burning wood of oxygen at the right temperature, and you will create CO gass more than pure enough to kill, removing the need for a stupid engine as the CO-source

[Daniel Shays]

Great example of how the Western petty-bourgeois politicians [and historians] during the Reagan era could downplay the holocaust to score points against the Soviet Union.He reminds me simply of a person with views from an earlier and better time.Because you are a member of a dying class caught in the vice of proletariat and bourgeoisie. Sulla can treat you like shit but you'll always crawl back, back to the arms of your IDF hunk(s) - because if there is only one thing you dislike more than Lexus driving yuppies that despise you, it's the working class and..... *gasp* "Niggers".

I don't like William Kristol...I find him to be a cynic, an ideologue, and profoundly misguided in his sympathies. However, he cannot properly be called a "kook".His father is a kook.

[Globus]

I don't think that he comes off like an imbecile. Buchanan began exploring this issue after the John Demanjuck fiasco...if you recall, Demanjuick was an innocent man who was persecuted and sentenced to death until he was grudgingly granted a repreive after overwhelming evidence was proffered (by Pat Buchanan and other parties) that he was in fact innocent of any wrongdoing.

You've got your facts wrong. The crime for which Demjanjuk was initially charged turned out to be a case of mistaken identity. But the evidence which came out during the long investigation proved that he lied when he claimed to have been captured during the war and sent to a POW camp. While it was shown he was likely not "Ivan the Terrible", the Treblinka guard, it was shown that Demjanjuk was trained at Trawniki,the Nazi training camp for Action Reinhardt camp guards, and then served as a guard at several death and slave labor camps.

Demjanjuk was hardly innocent of any wrongdoing.

[Globus]

You also have the claims that the procedure was done in minutes, and that the exhaust from a diesel was the killing agent.

Actually many minutes, and the record contains many descriptions of the procedure taking long periods of time because of trouble with the engine.

The last nail in the coffin was how the hoaxers forgot german producer gass technology where CO-gass was used as the combustible gass in the engine.

Your "nail in the coffin" is entirely irrelevant to what the evidence shows.

[Thomas777]

His father is a kook.

Perhaps he was. I think he was just a consummate cynic, like his son. Irving Kristol realized that Trotskyite political theory would forever be held in contempt by the American bourgeoisie, so he crafted a newfangled, missionary-democracy sort of ideology that appealed to New Right elements on account of its anti-Soviet disposition. This proved to be a remarkably effective tactic.

[OVERWATCH]

Then you probably know that backpreassure needs to be fairly high to achieve this, indicating that the gasschambers had to be able to stay sealed enough for the pressure needed to build up.
Why would the alleged killing compartments have to be sealed?

[xxx]

The revisionist 'heretic' Charles Provan pointed out that some witness statements say the bodies were discoloured blue at certain extremities and points, which is more a sign of asphyxiation, rather than red, which is supposedly the classic CO poisioning discolouration.

How many hrs/min post mortem were these bodies?

. However, modern medical experience has observed a virtual rainbow of colours produced by CO poisoning, and the 'classic' cherry-red discolouration is a relative rarity.


Is this referring to poisonings or actual fatalities?

[Hartmann von Aue]

This thread is really hysterical.

Everyone who reads the Nuremberg Transcripts should know that STEAM was used to kill the people at Treblinka.

Why use a diesel engine when you could just use the locomotive engine!

[eggheadbanga]

Is this referring to poisonings or actual fatalities?

Fatalities, IIRC. I've lost track of the compilation of references on another forum, but will ask for them if you want.

[eggheadbanga]

This thread is really hysterical.

Everyone who reads the Nuremberg Transcripts should know that STEAM was used to kill the people at Treblinka.


Mmm, that would be why newspapers in liberated Poland at the end of 1944 spoke of exhaust-fume gas chambers then!

[xxx]

Fatalities, IIRC. I've lost track of the compilation of references on another forum, but will ask for them if you want.


What is IIRC , those references would be good, thanks.

[eggheadbanga]

What is IIRC , those references would be good, thanks.

If I Recall Correctly = IIRC

I hopefully will have a reply tomorrow on where the references went to. A whole heap of 'em...

[delete]

Why would the alleged killing compartments have to be sealed?

The flow of air out of the engine must, when it reaches the perfect backpreassure ideal for gassing, equal the rate of the escaping air in the chamber.

I reckon this is more difficult than burning some wood while starving it for oxygen, to get the amount of poisionous CO and CO2 gasses one needed.

The only reason the germans used complicated producer gas technology in their cars, in stead of more medieval methods, was the demand for pure CO-gas emmited under variable loads. If all you wanted to do was to kill people, the old methods would do just fine.

PS I wrote that 'the camber had to be sealed enough for the pressure needed to build up', and I should have added that it also had to be leaky enough to let some air escape to continue the ideal packpreassure.

[Dances with Wolves]

Mmm, that would be why newspapers in liberated Poland at the end of 1944 spoke of exhaust-fume gas chambers then!

Because they were liberated by the Soviets? Perhaps that's an explanation.

[Hartmann von Aue]

Mmm, that would be why newspapers in liberated Poland at the end of 1944 spoke of exhaust-fume gas chambers then!

Well, I'm just going by the Nuremberg Transcripts.

I mean the prosecution must have had a lot more resources to investigate than Polish newspapers.

And they said steam was used at Treblinka.

Then again they didn't bother to check that there was no place named Wolzek on the map, so maybe I shouldn't be so trusting.

[eggheadbanga]

Because they were liberated by the Soviets? Perhaps that's an explanation.

No, because the Nuremberg document mentioning steam was a hasty rehash of a 1942 report based on bad information.

[ivory bill]

No, because the Nuremberg document mentioning steam was a hasty rehash of a 1942 report based on bad information.

Uh, but you must understand that all the other Nuremberg documents are flawlessly truthful and absolutely factual. :rolleyes:

[eggheadbanga]

Well, I'm just going by the Nuremberg Transcripts.

I mean the prosecution must have had a lot more resources to investigate than Polish newspapers.

And they said steam was used at Treblinka.

Actually, the prosecution in question, the Soviets, had virtually nobody at Nuremberg, a shortage of translators, and did not submit the reports of the Polish Main Commission which were compiled simultaneously with IMT, so they ended up recycling a 1942 report based on bad information.

A witness went into the stand to testify about Treblinka and he did not mention 'steam chambers' but instead gas chambers.

Then again they didn't bother to check that there was no place named Wolzek on the map, so maybe I shouldn't be so trusting.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/wolzek-paradox/

Hoess placed the third camp correctly on the map (40km past Cholm), but got the name wrong. Biiiiig fucking deal.



http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/wolzek-paradox/

[Hartmann von Aue]

No, because the Nuremberg document mentioning steam was a hasty rehash of a 1942 report based on bad information.

So they made a claim without any proof at Nuremberg.

Just as they made a false charge against John Demjanjuk.

[Hartmann von Aue]

Hoess placed the third camp correctly on the map (40km past Cholm), but got the name wrong. Biiiiig fucking deal.

And yet the people in charge of identifying a crime scene where mass-exterminations were supposedly happening were too lazy to check to see if the place-name was real.

[eggheadbanga]

Uh, but you must understand that all the other Nuremberg documents are flawlessly truthful and absolutely factual. :rolleyes:

And it might help if you understood that the critical German original documents can all be corroborated by other German documents which weren't used, and many existed as multiple copies.

I lost count of how many times I saw the 'Commissar Order' in the intelligence branch files of German infantry divisions when researching.

I also find it amusing that Carlos Porter had a hissy-fit about a document mentioning 'Sonderbehandlung' apropos a wave of executions in Russia which are discussed in about half a dozen other unpublished documents.

[eggheadbanga]

And yet the people in charge of identifying a crime scene where mass-exterminations were supposedly happening were too lazy to check to see if the place-name was real.

Why should they have checked? Hoess was giving his testimony as he saw it. He mentioned 'Treblinka, Belzak and Wolzek' as other camps he knew of. He didn't claim to have been to Sobibor or Belzec, he simply knew of their existence. That's verging on hearsay evidence. In legal terms whatever Hoess could say about Wolzek/Sobibor was not meaningful, in historical terms it's of mild interest to know that the commandant of Auschwitz wasn't that hot with Polish place-names.

[Hartmann von Aue]

Are any of these statements true?

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5060/4millionqv0rf2.jpg

I wonder what "historians" say?

Of course, they'd better be careful, they might have their reputations smeared, or even be sent to prison.

[Hartmann von Aue]

Why should they have checked?

I think that says it all.

[Dances with Wolves]

And it might help if you understood that the critical German original documents can all be corroborated by other German documents which weren't used, and many existed as multiple copies.

I lost count of how many times I saw the 'Commissar Order' in the intelligence branch files of German infantry divisions when researching.

I also find it amusing that Carlos Porter had a hissy-fit about a document mentioning 'Sonderbehandlung' apropos a wave of executions in Russia which are discussed in about half a dozen other unpublished documents.

Here we see the M.O. of the jew in action:
Lie:
And it might help if you understood that the critical German original documents can all be corroborated by other German documents which weren't used, and many existed as multiple copies.
Truth:
I lost count of how many times I saw the 'Commissar Order' in the intelligence branch files of German infantry divisions when researching. Well, the Commissar Order is a fact, you researching anything is dubious.
Distraction:
I also find it amusing that Carlos Porter had a hissy-fit about a document mentioning 'Sonderbehandlung' apropos a wave of executions in Russia which are discussed in about half a dozen other unpublished documents

On the board of deputies are you, Eggblana?

[eggheadbanga]

So they made a claim without any proof at Nuremberg.

No, the Soviets submitted a document which was contradicted by a witness brought to the stand by, IIRC, the Americans.

Not that the contradiction is especially great: a 1942 report based on poor information mentions asphyxiation by steam, a gas, versus subsequent better information indicating asphyxiation and poisoning by exhaust fumes, also a gas.

Just as they made a false charge against John Demjanjuk.

proven Sobibor guard :p

[Dances with Wolves]

No, the Soviets submitted a document which was contradicted by a witness brought to the stand by, IIRC, the Americans.

Not that the contradiction is especially great: a 1942 report based on poor information mentions asphyxiation by steam, a gas, versus subsequent better information indicating asphyxiation and poisoning by exhaust fumes, also a gas.



proven Sobibor guard :p

LOL documents submitted by the soviets. Didn't they submit documents about some massacre in the Katyn Forest?

The soviets used the age old tactic of throwing a ton of fake charges against the Germans, knowing a few would stick.

[Hartmann von Aue]

When someone is convicted of committing a crime, and they are falsely accused of using "steam chambers" or of committing mass exterminations in places which happen not to exist on the map, or of being "Ivan the Terrible" when he wasn't, there's something seriously wrong with the "proof" that's being used.

[eggheadbanga]

Here we see the M.O. of the jew in action:

Not Jewish, sorry to disappoint you.

Lie:

Quote:
And it might help if you understood that the critical German original documents can all be corroborated by other German documents which weren't used, and many existed as multiple copies.

If you think this is a lie, then it shows how little you know about the sources on the Third Reich and the Holocaust.

Truth:

Quote:
I lost count of how many times I saw the 'Commissar Order' in the intelligence branch files of German infantry divisions when researching.

Well, the Commissar Order is a fact, you researching anything is dubious.

I went through the files of the following German divisions at NARA, the numbers refer to microfilm rolls.

T315 Divisions
Panzer Divisions:
1st: 22, 29;
2nd: 95;
3rd: 136, 137;
4th: 206, 217, 2310;
5th: 262; 2311;
8th: 491;
9th: 533;
10th: 567;
12th: 626, 629, 632, 636;
18th: 714, 716, 717, 718;
20th: 744, 2330
Infantry Divisions (motorised):
10th: 550, 554;
14th: 651;
20th: 2329;
25th: 813;
29th: 845;
Grossdeutschland: 2289
Cavalry Division: 1st: 75, 78, 81, 82
Infantry Divisions:
5th: 245;
6th: 314, 317, 318, 2313;
7th: 390, 393;
17th: 690;
23rd: 787, 788, 789;
26th: 816, 822, 824;
31st: 866;
34th: 876;
35th: 886;
45th: 916, 917, 918, 920;
52nd: 959, 2343;
56th: 967;
72nd: 1062;
78th: 1097;
83rd: 1127, 1128;
86th: 1134;
87th: 1140, 1147;
95th: 1179, 2354;
98th: 1208;
102nd: 1232, 1234, 1235, 1236; 2356;
112th: 1275, 1276;
129th: 1377;
131st: 1380;
134th: 1402, 1409;
137th: 1419;
161st: 1444, 1445, 1448;
162nd: 1454;
167th: 1478;
183rd: 1548, 1549;
197th: 1561;
205th: 1588, 1589, 1590;
208th: 1616;
216th: 1639, 1640, 1642;
252nd: 1747, 1748;
253rd: 1757;
255th: 1778, 1781;
256th: 1799;
258th: 1817;
260th: 1830;
262nd: 1832, 1834;
267th: 1843, 1844;
268th: 1850;
292nd: 1923, 1926, 1927;
293rd: 1933;
296th: 1959;
328th: 2051;
330th: 2060, 2061;
331st: 2079;
339th: 2116, 2118, 2135;
385th: 2193;
707th: 2246, 2247, 2248

They all belonged at least temporarily to Army Group Centre, which was the object of my research. I think you can probably find some place on the internet to confirm that these units came under the relevant Orbat should you still be in any doubt.

Distraction:

Quote:
I also find it amusing that Carlos Porter had a hissy-fit about a document mentioning 'Sonderbehandlung' apropos a wave of executions in Russia which are discussed in about half a dozen other unpublished documents

No, it's a good example of how the vaunted Mr Porter is in fact an intellectual dwarf too stupid to double-check whether the Nuremberg documents he wishes to 'query' stand alone or in fact have extensive corroboration.

On the board of deputies are you, Eggblana?

No more than you sit on the Ayatollah's Council in Iran, as it happens. :p

[Hartmann von Aue]

an intellectual dwarf too stupid to double-check

Like the people who couldn't check to see if Wolzek was the name of an actual place?

[ivory bill]

Not that the contradiction is especially great: a 1942 report based on poor information mentions asphyxiation by steam, a gas, versus subsequent better information indicating asphyxiation and poisoning by exhaust fumes, also a gas.


No especially great difference between steam and exhaust fumes. Why, they're so similar that only an expert can tell them apart. Yes, that's the ticket!

[Dances with Wolves]

Don't forget IB, the color of the exhaust denoted the type of jew i.e green for polish, blue for hungarian, pink for french, so on and so forth.

Do I have my colors right, Milhouse?

Oh wait! That was the crematoria smoke that bellowed from the 100ft chimneys. My mistake!

[SlagMaster]

So why would everyone in Manila hold a mask over their nose and mouth in 2006?

Bird Flu, Tb, Sewage in the streets....

[SlagMaster]

No especially great difference between steam and exhaust fumes. Why, they're so similar that only an expert can tell them apart. Yes, that's the ticket!

I wonder if that steam was generated from Holy Water...

[Sulla the Dictator]

Everyone who reads the Nuremberg Transcripts should know that STEAM was used to kill the people at Treblinka.


(Cough)

84 posts, eh?

[Globus]

The flow of air out of the engine must, when it reaches the perfect backpreassure ideal for gassing, equal the rate of the escaping air in the chamber.

I reckon this is more difficult than burning some wood while starving it for oxygen, to get the amount of poisionous CO and CO2 gasses one needed.

Well, you reckon incorrectly.

In fact the Nazi's had a problem as detailed in one of the documents on gas vans that very likely resulted from the need to make the pressure more equal.

Letter from Willy Just to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Walter Rauff, 5 June 1942
["Nazism: A History in Documents and Eyewitness Accounts, 1919-1945",
Volume II, J.Noakes and G.Pridham, editors. Schocken Books, New York,
(c)1988 by the Dept. of History and Archeology, University of Exeter.
ISBN 0-8053-0973-5 (vol. 1), 0-8052-0972-7 (vol. 2). Document #913]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Technical alterations to the special vehicles already in operation
and those in production.

Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 have been processed using
three vans without any faults developing in the vehicles. The
well-known explosion in Kulmhof (Chelmno) must be treated as a special
case. It was caused by faulty practice. Special instructions have been
given to the relevant offices in order to avoid such accidents. The
instructions were such as to ensure a considerable increase in the
degree of security.

Further operational experience hitherto indicates that the following
technical alterations are appropriate....

2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square meter.
With the large Saurer special vans this is not possible because
although they do not become overloaded their maneuverability is much
impaired. A reduction in the load area appears desirable. It can be
achieved by reducing the size of the van by c. 1 meter. The difficulty
referred to cannot be overcome by reducing the size of the load. For a
reduction in the numbers will necessitate a longer period of operation
because the free spaces will have to be filled with CO. By contrast, a
smaller load area which is completely full requires a much sorter
period of operation since there are no free spaces.....

3) The connecting hoses between the exhaust and the van frequently
rust through because they are corroded inside by the liquids which
fall on them. To prevent this the connecting piece must be moved so
that the gas is fed from the top downwards. This will prevent liquids
flowing in.....

6) The lighting must be better protected against damage than
hitherto....It has been suggested that lighting should be dispensed
with since they are allegedly never used. However, experience shows
that when the rear door is closed and therefore when it becomes dark,
the cargo presses hard towards the door....It makes it difficult to
latch the door. Furthermore, it has been observed that the noise
always begins when the doors are shut presumably because of fear
brought on by the darkness.

[Globus]

Well, I'm just going by the Nuremberg Transcripts.

I mean the prosecution must have had a lot more resources to investigate than Polish newspapers.

Actually the collection of evidence had only just begun.

And they said steam was used at Treblinka.

Based on a Polish report having nothing to do with anyone who actually worked in the camp. It is quite understandable that Poles, looking into the camp might mistake smoke from an engine with steam. What this has to do with the wealth of evidence gathered after this very early trial is beyond me.

Then again they didn't bother to check that there was no place named Wolzek on the map, so maybe I shouldn't be so trusting.

I think it is quite likely that Hoess was referring to the camp Sobibor which was located near the Polish town of Wolczyn which was in fact closer to the Sobibor camp than the town for which it was named.

Again, another minor detail.

[Globus]

Originally Posted by Milhouse Van Houten
Mmm, that would be why newspapers in liberated Poland at the end of 1944 spoke of exhaust-fume gas chambers then!

Because they were liberated by the Soviets? Perhaps that's an explanation.

Treblinka wasn't liberated by the Soviets!!

Treblinka was closed and dismantled long before the Soviets arrived.

You see, it helps to know something about the subject, rather than just emoting based on your agenda.

[Globus]

So they made a claim without any proof at Nuremberg.

No, the claim that Nazis killed Jews at Treblinka is demonstrably true. And as was pointed out to you, testimony from someone who was actually at the camp indicated that gassing was the method. Of course you pretend that 60 subsequent years of research hasn't clearly confirmed this.

Just as they made a false charge against John Demjanjuk.

Proving in the process that he was a death camp and slave labor camp guard.

[Globus]

And yet the people in charge of identifying a crime scene where mass-exterminations were supposedly happening were too lazy to check to see if the place-name was real.

They were not in charge of identifying the Sobibor crime scene.

[Globus]

LOL documents submitted by the soviets.

German documents submitted by the Soviets, and authenticated.

Didn't they submit documents about some massacre in the Katyn Forest?

No, they didn't.

The soviets used the age old tactic of throwing a ton of fake charges against the Germans, knowing a few would stick.

Rubbish.

[Globus]

Like the people who couldn't check to see if Wolzek was the name of an actual place?

Ah, a jonny-one-note!

Just who at Nuremberg was charged with crimes at Sobibor?

[Globus]

Don't forget IB, the color of the exhaust denoted the type of jew i.e green for polish, blue for hungarian, pink for french, so on and so forth.

DWW confuses an incident from Auschwitz with Treblinka.

Perhaps IB thinks that from a distance the smoke from an engine can clearly be distinguished from steam, but then that would not be surprising.

Oh wait! That was the crematoria smoke that bellowed from the 100ft chimneys. My mistake!

DWW doesn't think chimneys smoke!!

[Sulla the Dictator]

Yeah. Buchanan is an "idiot". As a young man, he became a close confidante of President Nixon, he then went on to serve the Reagan administration, create the immensely popular "Crossfire" program on CNN, write five bestselling books, and publish his own monthly magazine. He sure sounds like a stupid man to me, Sulla.

I find it entirely plausible that his current idiocy is meant to court the most base elements of the American right. Who knows. I've read one of those books, and thought it was a particularly transparent piece of dreck.

[cerberus]

I am always amazed by the pointless questions asked regarding , smoke , chimneys , exhaust fumes , you know -"the same old same old " asked time and time again , yet when you ask these wise revisionist genltemen to explainwhere are the missing people - they don't have a clue - on would think that this would be one which they could all answer or at least make a stab at - but they never do.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

It is an interesting article, but I still don't think he's "agreeing" with the David Irvings and Zundels of the world

[Kodos]

I am always amazed by the pointless questions asked regarding , smoke , chimneys , exhaust fumes , you know -"the same old same old " asked time and time again , yet when you ask these wise revisionist genltemen to explainwhere are the missing people - they don't have a clue - on would think that this would be one which they could all answer or at least make a stab at - but they never do.

Im surprised they never try to make the obvious claims that would be consistent with their hypothesis.

1. Most jews left Poland when Russia annexed Poland east of the Curzon line and fell into Soviet territory.

2. The rest went to Israel Britain and the United States.

These claims would actually take an annoying amount of time to debunk... but they don't bring it up.

[Dances with Wolves]

Im surprised they never try to make the obvious claims that would be consistent with their hypothesis.

1. Most jews left Poland when Russia annexed Poland east of the Curzon line and fell into Soviet territory.

2. The rest went to Israel Britain and the United States.

These claims would actually take an annoying amount of time to debunk... but they don't bring it up.

The must have went somewhere, Kodos. The wild claims of the exterminationists just don't hold up against scrutiny. I mean, do you really believe a claim made here that up to SEVENTY THOUSAND jews just didn't make it on the records? REally! The jews, who were stamped as they were evacuated, stamped as they were loaded on trains, stamped as they were inducted into the camps, stamped when they were in hospitals, so on and so forth;we can't find them huh?

have you ever checked the jewish population stats for Palestine from 1920 to 1946? Do you deny that Hitler had run most of the jews out of Germany by the time of the outbreak of war and that jews in the soviet zone were not moved further east by the jews that controlled much of the soviet government at the time?

[Dances with Wolves]

I find it entirely plausible that his current idiocy is meant to court the most base elements of the American right. Who knows. I've read one of those books, and thought it was a particularly transparent piece of dreck.

What would you expect from someone who has no racial or cultural ties to the people Buchanan is speaking to? It's not in you to understand. You can never understand the matter of race or culture because you have none yourself.

[il ragno]

I am always amazed by the pointless questions asked regarding , smoke , chimneys , exhaust fumes , you know -"the same old same old " asked time and time again , yet when you ask these wise revisionist genltemen to explainwhere are the missing people - they don't have a clue - on would think that this would be one which they could all answer or at least make a stab at - but they never do.

They were all right here, in Brooklyn! And a little later, Miami Beach, where they voted en masse for Buchanan by accident.

[Hartmann von Aue]

Ah, a jonny-one-note!

Just who at Nuremberg was charged with crimes at Sobibor?

Just who at Nuremberg was charged with crimes at Katyn?

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/237/katynyf0.jpg

It was stated as a fact that people were steamed to death.

It was stated as a fact that there were mass exterminations at a non-existent place, Wolzek.

It was stated as a fact that John Demjanjuk was "Ivan the Terrible."

All of those claims were false.

"New evidence" is never lacking for those ready to falsify.

[Hartmann von Aue]

I am always amazed by the pointless questions asked regarding , smoke , chimneys , exhaust fumes , you know -"the same old same old " asked time and time again , yet when you ask these wise revisionist genltemen to explainwhere are the missing people - they don't have a clue - on would think that this would be one which they could all answer or at least make a stab at - but they never do.

No one claims that the absence of a German population in Koenigsburg or Silesia or any of the other places where over 10 million Germans were deported from is proof that they were killed in a small building in Auschwitz supposedly capable of holding 2000 people.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8634/hoessconfessionzi7.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9797/gaschamberak9.jpg

But hey, I'm ready to believe that John Demjanjuk was the conductor of the orchestra at Wolzek where the steam chambers were operating at full capacity.

[Globus]

The must have went somewhere, Kodos.

How about where their murderers told us!

The wild claims of the exterminationists just don't hold up against scrutiny.

But you can't show what you mean.

I mean, do you really believe a claim made here that up to SEVENTY THOUSAND jews just didn't make it on the records? REally!

What records?

The jews, who were stamped as they were evacuated, stamped as they were loaded on trains, stamped as they were inducted into the camps, stamped when they were in hospitals, so on and so forth;we can't find them huh?

So maybe they mailed them somewhere?

Nobody was stamped! Where do you get this stuff.

have you ever checked the jewish population stats for Palestine from 1920 to 1946?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Aliyah_Bet:_Illegal_immigration_.281933-1948.29

Fourth Aliyah (1924-1929)

First Aliyah: Biluim wearing traditional Arab headdress, the keffiyeh.Between 1924 and 1929, 82,000 Jews arrived, many as a result of anti-semitism in Poland and Hungary. The immigration quotas of the United States kept Jews out. This group contained many middle class families that moved to the growing towns, establishing small businesses and light industry.

Of these approximately 23,000 left the country.

Fifth Aliyah (1929-1939)
Between 1929 and 1939, with the rise of Nazism in Germany, a new wave of 250,000 immigrants arrived, the majority of these, 174,000, arrived between 1933-1936, after which increasing restrictions on immigration by the British made immigration clandestine and illegal, called Aliyah Bet. The Fifth Aliyah was again driven mostly from Eastern Europe as well as professionals, doctors, lawyers and professors, from Germany. Refugee artists introduced Bauhaus (Tel Aviv has the highest concentration of Bauhaus architecture in the world) and founded the Palestine Philharmonic Orchestra. With the completion of the port at Haifa and its oil refineries, significant industry was added to the predominantly agricultural economy. The Jewish population reached 450,000 by 1940.

Aliyah Bet: Illegal immigration (1933-1948)

The British government limited Jewish immigration to Palestine with quotas, and following the rise of Nazism to power in Germany, illegal immigration to Palestine commenced. The illegal immigration was known as Aliyah Bet ("secondary immigration"), or Ha'apalah, and was organized by the Mossad Le'aliyah Bet, as well as by the Irgun. Immigration was done mainly by sea, and to a lesser extent overland through Iraq and Syria. Beginning in 1939 Jewish immigration was further restricted, limiting it to 75,000 individuals for a period of five years after which immigration was to end completely. The British made it illegal to sell land to Jews in 95% of the Mandate. During World War II and the years that followed until independence, Aliyah Bet became the main form of Jewish immigration to Palestine.

Following the war, Berihah ("flight"), an organization of former partisans and ghetto fighters was primarily responsible for smuggling Jews from Poland and Eastern Europe to the Italian ports from which they traveled to Palestine.

Despite British efforts to curb the illegal immigration, during the 14 years of its operation, 110,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine.

So about 320,000. You won't find the missing 5-6 million there!

Do you deny that Hitler had run most of the jews out of Germany by the time of the outbreak of war

There were only 550,000 - 600,000 Jews in Germany in 1933. That is a tiny fraction of the almost 10 million who resided in parts of Europe which would come under Nazi control during WWII. About 280,000 emigrated between 1933 and the start of the war.

The murder of Germany's Jews was a small part of the Holocaust.

and that jews in the soviet zone were not moved further east by the jews that controlled much of the soviet government at the time?

Jews had no control over the Soviet government and most Jews in the "Soviet Zone" came under Nazi control after the attack on Russia in June of 1941 and well over 1 million were killed by shooting squads and gas vans.

[Globus]

Just who at Nuremberg was charged with crimes at Katyn?

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/237/katynyf0.jpg

No mention of Sobibor or anyone charged with crimes at that camp.

It was stated as a fact that people were steamed to death.

No, it was offered as evidence, as was the testimony of someone from the camp who offered evidence that it was in fact gas.

It was stated as a fact that there were mass exterminations at a non-existent place, Wolzek.

It was offered as evidence that a camp existed near a place with a name like that.

It was stated as a fact that John Demjanjuk was "Ivan the Terrible."

Nothing to do with Nuremberg.

All of those claims were false.

No they're not.

You're batting .000

[Globus]

No one claims that the absence of a German population in Koenigsburg or Silesia or any of the other places where over 10 million Germans were deported from is proof that they were killed in a small building in Auschwitz supposedly capable of holding 2000 people.

No one makes any such claim about Auschwitz either.

Having fun with your straw men?

[Hartmann von Aue]

Looks like they have the transcripts online now.

Execution with Steam at Treblinka (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol1/chap_12.htm)

Some more interesting claims:

Einsatzgruppe B settled down in the vicinity of Smolensk. It burned alive the peasants of Byelorussia; it shot down the victims of the awful Pinsk action; it drowned thousands of Byelorussian women and children in the Masurian Lakes; it operated with "murder vans" in Minsk; it liquidated the ghetto in the Verchnye Sadka district of Smolensk. (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/07-29-46.htm)

The Masurian lakes are a scenic lake district in East Prussia. So of course the Germans decided to take women and children from Belarus and drown them there.

In the Ganov camp 200,000 peaceful citizens were exterminated. The most refined methods of cruelty were employed in this extermination, such as disembowelling and the freezing of human beings in tubs of water. Mass shootings took place to the accompaniment of the music of an orchestra recruited from the persons interned. (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/count3.htm)

The accusations made at Nuremberg are the greatest pack of lies in the history of the world. From the world's biggest liars: Stalin's prosecutors.

[Globus]

Looks like they have the transcripts online now.

The transcripts have been online for years.

The accusations made at Nuremberg are the greatest pack of lies in the history of the world.

No they're not. You simply don't know anything about the history and are denying in ignorance.

[ivory bill]

Globus has the answer.


No they're not.


No they're not.


No they're not.

[Hartmann von Aue]

Let's sum it up again.

The Nuremberg Prosecution used a false claim of "steam chambers" as evidence for mass executions at Treblinka. Obviously, they didn't really know what had happened there, but were content to quote false accusations.

Obviously that prosecution was not above making false accusations. See the assertions of the prosecution about the Katyn massacre. That was the level of honesty in the prosecution - they were not ashamed to accuse the Germans of an act that was in fact committed by their own government.

The Nuremberg prosecution also referred to a camp at Wolzek, a name which they would not have found on a map, had they bothered to look. And we're supposed to believe these PROVEN liars?

John Demjanjuk, the topic of the thread, was FALSELY accused of being "Ivan the Terrible." Apparently the fact that he was FALSELY accused is irrelevant to certain posters here.

This system of false accusation never needs to worry about being proven wrong, because it always has another false accusation at the ready.

[Hartmann von Aue]

You simply don't know anything about the history

I know the Soviets committed the Katyn Massacre, and lied about it.

I know there were no steam chambers.

I know that a death camp Wolzek was named, when such a name does not appear on any map.

I know no prussic acid stains were found on the alleged homicidal gas chamber.

I know that John Demjanjuk was not "Ivan the Terrible" but was falsely accused.

I know that the Jews are covering up and lying about history.

[Globus]

Let's sum it up again.

The Nuremberg Prosecution used a false claim of "steam chambers" as evidence for mass executions at Treblinka.

They used a number of pieces of evidence, and evidence in question was a report that steam was used. Other evidence indicated it was gas. That Jews were killed was not in question.

Obviously, they didn't really know what had happened there, but were content to quote false accusations.

The accusations of murder were not false, and they indeed knew what happened there, even though the Nuremberg Trial was not about Treblinka.

Obviously that prosecution was not above making false accusations.

Prosecutions introduce incorrect charges and evidence into courtrooms every day. The claim of mass murder at Treblinka was not false.

See the assertions of the prosecution about the Katyn massacre. That was the level of honesty in the prosecution

Rubbish. Prosecutors have a role in trials, so do defense attorneys and Judges. The Katyn charges were ignored as having no solid support.

they were not ashamed to accuse the Germans of an act that was in fact committed by their own government.

An accusation which died for lack of evidence.

The Nuremberg prosecution also referred to a camp at Wolzek, a name which they would not have found on a map, had they bothered to look.

Not true at all. They would have realized the name referred to a small town near Sobibor, another camp, and would have realized that the evidence was correct, but came from a man who had never been to the camp. And since no one was charged with any specific crimes at Sobibor, the point is moot.

And we're supposed to believe these PROVEN liars?

The verdicts of the court do not come from proven liars.

John Demjanjuk, the topic of the thread, was FALSELY accused of being Ivan the Terrible. Apparently the fact that he was FALSELY accused is irrelevant to certain posters here.

No, but it is irrelevant to the fact that he was a Nazi death camp guard, lied about his WWII activities, lied on his immigration application and deserved deportation for that reason.

This system of false accusation never needs to worry about being proven wrong, because it always has another false accusation at the ready.

The tiny number of examples which you have largely mischaracterized have nothing to do with the evidence for the Holocaust.

[Globus]

I know the Soviets committed the Katyn Massacre, and lied about it.

Irrelevant to Holocaust history.

I know there were no steam chambers.

Irrelevant to the facts of the gas chambers at Treblinka.

I know that a death camp Wolzek was named, when such a name does not appear on any map.

The name of a village near Sobibor does and this was the name likely intented.

I know no prussic acid stains were found on the alleged homicidal gas chamber.

No you don't, because that is a lie.

I know that John Demjanjuk was not "Ivan the Terrible" but was falsely accused.

Irrelevant to the Holocaust.

I know that the Jews are covering up and lying about history.

No you don't. You just know you hate Jews.

But you don't know is that Holocaust history wasn't written by Jews.

[Hartmann von Aue]

They used a number of pieces of evidence, and evidence in question was a report that steam was used. Other evidence indicated it was gas. That Jews were killed was not in question. The accusations of murder were not false, and they indeed knew what happened there, even though the Nuremberg Trial was not about Treblinka.

Not about Treblinka? Not about death camps? Funny they should mention it then. That's like saying the Nuremberg Trials weren't about Auschwitz. Of course they claimed 3 to 4 million had died there, and that's false too.

Prosecutions introduce incorrect charges and evidence into courtrooms every day. The claim of mass murder at Treblinka was not false.

The evidence presented was false. The claim of a death camp at Treblinka is almost certainly false.

Rubbish. Prosecutors have a role in trials, so do defense attorneys and Judges. The Katyn charges were ignored as having no solid support.

LOL, it was an outrageous lie, part of a pattern.

Not true at all. They would have realized the name referred to a small town near Sobibor, another camp, and would have realized that the evidence was correct, but came from a man who had never been to the camp. And since no one was charged with any specific crimes at Sobibor, the point is moot.

Not true? They mentioned a place they couldn't have found on a map. When the prosecution fails to verify that a claimed site of extermination exists on a map, that is gross negligence.

The verdicts of the court do not come from proven liars.

The EVIDENCE presented there has been used uncritically in the promotion of the Holocaust legend.

No, but it is irrelevant to the fact that he was a Nazi death camp guard, lied about his WWII activities, lied on his immigration application and deserved deportation for that reason.

His accusers lied about him. That's the point.

The tiny number of examples which you have largely mischaracterized have nothing to do with the evidence for the Holocaust.

False, the Hoess confession with its non-existent camp name and the false claim of 3,000,000 victims at Auschwitz has been used as evidence for the holocaust.

http://www.cwporter.com/404a.JPG

[Globus]

Originally Posted by Globus
They used a number of pieces of evidence, and evidence in question was a report that steam was used. Other evidence indicated it was gas. That Jews were killed was not in question. The accusations of murder were not false, and they indeed knew what happened there, even though the Nuremberg Trial was not about Treblinka.

Not about Treblinka? Not about death camps? Funny they should mention it then.

The camps were barely mentioned in the 20 plus volumes of the trial, and they were mentioned only in reference to one of the counts of indictment and only as one collective piece of that.

While it is not funny at all, it is simply wrong to not understand that the Nuremberg trials were not about the death camps, or the killing of Jews per se.

That's like saying the Nuremberg Trials weren't about Auschwitz. Of course they claimed 3 to 4 million had died there, and that's false too.

The trials were not about Auschwitz. They were about a small number of charges against a small number of Nazis. You might want to acquaint yourself with the trails. Whether 1 million, or 3-4 million people died at Auschwitz has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of the defendents.


Prosecutions introduce incorrect charges and evidence into courtrooms every day. The claim of mass murder at Treblinka was not false.

The evidence presented was false.

No, a piece of the evidence identified an incorrect murder weapon. Other evidence identified the correct means.

The claim of a death camp at Treblinka is almost certainly false.

The death camp of Treblinka is a proven historical fact.


Rubbish. Prosecutors have a role in trials, so do defense attorneys and Judges. The Katyn charges were ignored as having no solid support.

LOL, it was an outrageous lie, part of a pattern.

No, it was not a part of a pattern and was dismissed. How can you discern a pattern in a trials which takes up over 20 volumes when you are largely ignorant of it?



Not true at all. They would have realized the name referred to a small town near Sobibor, another camp, and would have realized that the evidence was correct, but came from a man who had never been to the camp. And since no one was charged with any specific crimes at Sobibor, the point is moot.

Not true? They mentioned a place they couldn't have found on a map.

No, they didn't. A witness did. One sign of an intelligent human being is the ability to make elementary distinctions. And the subject of Sobibor was irrelevant.


The verdicts of the court do not come from proven liars.

The EVIDENCE presented there has been used uncritically in the promotion of the Holocaust legend.

No it hasn't. Otherwise historians would have concluded that steam was used to kill Jews at Treblinka. You merely mouth denier cliches.


No, but it is irrelevant to the fact that he was a Nazi death camp guard, lied about his WWII activities, lied on his immigration application and deserved deportation for that reason.

His accusers lied about him. That's the point.

No they didn't. That is a self-serving lie of yours. They mis-identified a man 30+ years after the event. And the point is Demjanjuk was a death camp guard.


The tiny number of examples which you have largely mischaracterized have nothing to do with the evidence for the Holocaust.

False, the Hoess confession with its non-existent camp name and the false claim of 3,000,000 victims at Auschwitz has been used as evidence for the holocaust.

No, the camp at Sobibor is evidence for the Holocaust and Hoess revised his total to about 1.1 million. A death toll is not evidence of a crime, just the extent of it.

[Hartmann von Aue]

The camps were barely mentioned in the 20 plus volumes of the trial, and they were mentioned only in reference to one of the counts of indictment and only as one collective piece of that.

While it is not funny at all, it is simply wrong to not understand that the Nuremberg trials were not about the death camps, or the killing of Jews per se.

They were about many things, INCLUDING "the death camps" and the "crimes against humanity", in which many outrageous fabrications and lies were told.

The trials were not about Auschwitz. They were about a small number of charges against a small number of Nazis.

The charges were not just against a small group of individuals:

II. The following are named as groups or organizations (since dissolved) which should be declared criminal by reason of their aims and the means used for the accomplishment thereof and in connection with the conviction of such of the named defendants as were members thereof: DIE REICHSREGIERUNG (REICH CABINET); DAS KORPS DER POLITISCHEN LEITER DER NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHEN DEUTSCHEN ARBEITERPARTEI (LEADERSHIP CORPS OF THE NAZI PARTY); DIE SCHUTZSTAFFELN DER NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHEN DEUTSCHEN ARBEITERPARTEI (commonly known as the "SS") and including DER SICHERHEITSDIENST (commonly known as the "SD"); DIE GEHEIME STAATSPOLIZEI (SECRET STATE POLICE, commonly known as the "GESTAPO"); DIE STURMABTEILUNGEN DER NSDAP (commonly known as the "SA"); and the GENERAL STAFF of the HIGH COMMAND of the GERMAN ARMED FORCES.

In count III, "Crimes Against Humanity" the following charge is made:

(a) Murders and ill-treatments at concentration camps and similar establishments set up by the Germans in the Eastern Countries and in Eastern Germany including those set up at Maidanek and Auschwitz.

The said murders and ill-treatments were carried out by divers means including all those set out above, as follows:

About 1,500,000 persons were exterminated in Maidanek and about 4,000,000 persons were exterminated in Auschwitz, among whom were citizens of Poland, the U.S.S.R., the United States of America, Great Britain, Czechoslovakia, France, and other countries.

Whether 1 million, or 3-4 million people died at Auschwitz has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of the defendents.

It has everything to do with the validity of the evidence used to convict them.

No, a piece of the evidence identified an incorrect murder weapon. Other evidence identified the correct means.

There is no real evidence for either.

No, it was not a part of a pattern and was dismissed. How can you discern a pattern in a trials which takes up over 20 volumes when you are largely ignorant of it?

I've looked through them. Yes, I saw they convicted Doenitz of (A) MURDER AND ILL-TREATMENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATIONS OF OR IN OCCUPIED TERRITORY AND ON THE HIGH SEAS The whole trial was a legal farce.

No, they didn't. A witness did. One sign of an intelligent human being is the ability to make elementary distinctions. And the subject of Sobibor was irrelevant.

They quoted the false statement of a witness about a site where mass murder was supposed to have taken place, yet they didn't bother to check to see whether the name he gave was correct.

No they didn't. That is a self-serving lie of yours. They mis-identified a man 30+ years after the event. And the point is Demjanjuk was a death camp guard.

They didn't know who he was "Ivan the Terrible," but claimed they did. That's lying.

No, the camp at Sobibor is evidence for the Holocaust and Hoess revised his total to about 1.1 million. A death toll is not evidence of a crime, just the extent of it.

If he didn't know how many people he killed at the beginning, how could he know later to revise his claim? He never knew: that's the only reasonable conclusion. His confession was simply a collection of statements that are known to be false, and yet it is still held up as truth.

[Globus]

Originally Posted by Globus
The camps were barely mentioned in the 20 plus volumes of the trial, and they were mentioned only in reference to one of the counts of indictment and only as one collective piece of that.

While it is not funny at all, it is simply wrong to not understand that the Nuremberg trials were not about the death camps, or the killing of Jews per se.

They were about many things, INCLUDING "the death camps" and the "crimes against humanity", in which many outrageous fabrications and lies were told.

No, they were largely about things other than the death camps. Very little history of those camps came from these trials.


The trials were not about Auschwitz. They were about a small number of charges against a small number of Nazis.

The charges were not just against a small group of individuals:

Yes they were. Trying reading who the defendents were.


Whether 1 million, or 3-4 million people died at Auschwitz has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of the defendents.

It has everything to do with the validity of the evidence used to convict them.

No it doesn't. They were merely estimates.


No, a piece of the evidence identified an incorrect murder weapon. Other evidence identified the correct means.

There is no real evidence for either.

That is a stupid statement.



No, it was not a part of a pattern and was dismissed. How can you discern a pattern in a trials which takes up over 20 volumes when you are largely ignorant of it?


I've looked through them.

No you haven't.

The whole trial was a legal farce.

Not in the least.


No, they didn't. A witness did. One sign of an intelligent human being is the ability to make elementary distinctions. And the subject of Sobibor was irrelevant.

They quoted the false statement of a witness about a site where mass murder was supposed to have taken place, yet they didn't bother to check to see whether the name he gave was correct.

Irrelevant. The place had nothing to do with the charges or the presecutions case. The statement was not false, he merely misremembered the small towns name.


No they didn't. That is a self-serving lie of yours. They mis-identified a man 30+ years after the event. And the point is Demjanjuk was a death camp guard.

They didn't know who he was "Ivan the Terrible," but claimed they did. That's lying.

Another stupid statement. A lie is a deliberate falsehood. They thought he was.


No, the camp at Sobibor is evidence for the Holocaust and Hoess revised his total to about 1.1 million. A death toll is not evidence of a crime, just the extent of it.

If he didn't know how many people he killed at the beginning, how could he know later to revise his claim?

Because he had a lot more time to think about it.

He never knew: that's the only reasonable conclusion.

No, that's a self-serving denier conclusion.

[Hartmann von Aue]

There's no point arguing with someone who can't even concede what's right in front of his face:

Defendants.

I. The United States of America, the French Republic, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics by the undersigned, Robert H. Jackson, Francois de Menthon, Hartley Shawcross, and R. A. Rudenko, duly appointed to represent their respective Governments in the investigation of the charges against and the prosecution of the major war criminals, pursuant to the Agreement of London dated 8 August 1945, and the Charter of this Tribunal annexed thereto, hereby accuse as guilty, in the respects hereinafter set forth, of Crimes against Peace, War Crimes, and Crimes against Humanity, and of a Common Plan or Conspiracy to commit those Crimes, all as defined in the Charter of the Tribunal, and accordingly name as defendants in this cause and as indicted on the counts hereinafter set out: HERMANN WILHELM GOERING, RUDOLF HESS, JOACHIM VON RIBBENTROP, ROBERT LEY, WILHELM KEITEL, ERNST KALTENBRUNNER, ALFRED ROSENBERG, HANS FRANK, WILHELM FRICK, JULIUS STREICHER, WALTER FUNK, HJALMAR SCHACHT, GUSTAV KRUPP VON BOHLEN UND HALBACH, KARL Doenitz, ERICH RAEDER, BALDUR VON SCHIRACH, FRITZ SAUCKEL, ALFRED JODL, MARTIN BORMANN, FRANZ VON PAPEN, ARTHUR SEYSS-INQUART, ALBERT SPEER, CONSTANTIN VON NEURATH and HANS FRITZSCHE, individually and as members of any of the groups or organizations next hereinafter named.

II. The following are named as groups or organizations (since dissolved) which should be declared criminal by reason of their aims and the means used for the accomplishment thereof and in connection with the conviction of such of the named defendants as were members thereof: DIE REICHSREGIERUNG (REICH CABINET); DAS KORPS DER POLITISCHEN LEITER DER NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHEN DEUTSCHEN ARBEITERPARTEI (LEADERSHIP CORPS OF THE NAZI PARTY); DIE SCHUTZSTAFFELN DER NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHEN DEUTSCHEN ARBEITERPARTEI (commonly known as the "SS") and including DER SICHERHEITSDIENST (commonly known as the "SD"); DIE GEHEIME STAATSPOLIZEI (SECRET STATE POLICE, commonly known as the "GESTAPO"); DIE STURMABTEILUNGEN DER NSDAP (commonly known as the "SA"); and the GENERAL STAFF of the HIGH COMMAND of the GERMAN ARMED FORCES.

Not just individuals, but the guilt of organizations was being determined.

Hoess had more time to think about it. LOL!

[Globus]

There's no point arguing with someone who can't even concede what's right in front of his face:

There were 22 defendents you poor fool!

Not just individuals, but the guilt of organizations was being determined.

Which involved no guilt of anyone not part of the 22.

I guess you better learn to think.

Hoess had more time to think about it. LOL!

His first estimate was given the night he was captured, after being roughed and plied with drink. Yes, more time to actually think about.

Glad you learned something.

[Hartmann von Aue]

There were 22 defendents you poor fool!



Which involved no guilt of anyone not part of the 22.

I guess you better learn to think.

You'd be better off acknowledging what's in front of your face.

The following are named as groups or organizations (since dissolved) which should be declared criminal

The trial was not merely about determining the criminality of individuals, but also of groups.

His first estimate was given the night he was captured, after being roughed and plied with drink. Yes, more time to actually think about.

Glad you learned something.

Ah, so you concede he was roughed up!

Anyway, in the Trial, Hoess said:


COL. AMEN: I will omit the first paragraph and start with Paragraph 2:
"I have been constantly associated with the administration of concentration camps since 1934, serving at Dachau until 1938; then as Adjutant in Sachsenhausen from 1938 to 1 May 1940, when I was appointed Commandant of Auschwitz.. I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This?figure represents about 70 or 80 percent of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries; included among the executed and burned were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (previously screened out of prisoner-of-war cages by the Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmacht transports operated by regular Wehrmacht officers and men. The remainder of the total number of victims included about 100,000 German Jews, and great numbers of citizens, mostly Jewish, from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece, or other countries. We executed about 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944."
That is all true, Witness?
HOESS: Yes, it is.

[Globus]

Originally Posted by Globus
There were 22 defendents you poor fool!

Which involved no guilt of anyone not part of the 22.

I guess you better learn to think.

You'd be better off acknowledging what's in front of your face.

What's in front of my face is someone ill-equipped to understand or argue his case.


The trial was not merely about determining the criminality of individuals, but also of groups.

Which still only involves the 22 defendants.


His first estimate was given the night he was captured, after being roughed and plied with drink. Yes, more time to actually think about.

Glad you learned something.

Ah, so you concede he was roughed up!

Historical facts don't need to be conceded, but the lies of deniers do.

Anyway, in the Trial, Hoess said:

What he said in his affidavit, as I already told you.

At this very time he was coming up with a different estimate.

During my earlier interrogations I gave the number of 2.5 million Jews who arrived at Auschwitz to be exterminated. This fugure was given to me by Eichmann who had given this figure to my superior, SS General Glucks, when Eichmann was ordered to make a report to Himmler shortly before Berlin was surrounded. Eichmann and his deputy, Gunther, were the only ones who had the necessary information to calculate the total number of Jews annihilated. According to the orders given by Himmler, all information concerning the number of victims involved was to be burned after each action at Auschwitz.

As head of Department DI, I personally destroyed every bit of evidence which could be found in my office. The other department heads did the same.

According to Eichmann, Himmler and Gestapo Headquarters had also destroyed all their files.

Only his personal notes contained this information. It is possible that because of the negligence of some departments a few isolated documents, teleprinnter messages, or wireless messages remain undestroyed, but they could not give enough information to make a calculation.

I myself never knew the total number and I have nothing to help me arrive at an estimate.

I can only remember the figures involved in the larger actions, which were repeated to me by Eichmann or his deputies.

From Upper Silesia and the General Government 250,000

Germany and Theresienstadt 100,000

Holland 95,000

Belgium 20,000

France 110,000

Greece 65,000

Hungary 400,000

Slovakia 90,000

Total 1,130,000*

I can no longer remember the figures for the smaller actions but they were insignificant by comparison with the numbers given above.

I regard a total of 2.5 million as far too high. Even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive capabilities.

*Totaled by editor, not Hoess.


Death Dealer
The Memoirs of Rudolph Hoess
p. 38-39

[Hartmann von Aue]

3. By reason of all the foregoing, the defendants with divers other persons are guilty of a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of Crimes against Peace; of a conspiracy to commit Crimes against Humanity in the course of preparation for war and in the course of prosecution of war; and of a conspiracy to commit War Crimes not only against the armed forces of their enemies but also against non-belligerent civilian populations.

This is what the indictment says. "The defendants and divers other persons ..."

[Globus]

3. By reason of all the foregoing, the defendants with divers other persons are guilty of a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of Crimes against Peace; of a conspiracy to commit Crimes against Humanity in the course of preparation for war and in the course of prosecution of war; and of a conspiracy to commit War Crimes not only against the armed forces of their enemies but also against non-belligerent civilian populations.

This is what the indictment says. "The defendants and divers other persons ..."

Only if demonstrated in every individual case, as you'd know if you knew anything about the subject your mouthing off about.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/02-28-46.htm

The general issues under this Charter are to be determined with finality in one trial before the International Tribunal, and in that trial every accused organization must be defended by counsel and must be represented by at least one leading member, and other individuals may apply to be heard. Their applications may be granted if the Tribunal thinks justice requires it. The only issue in this trial concerns the collective criminality of the organization or group. It is to be adjudicated by what amounts to a declaratory judgment. It does not decree any punishment either against the organization or against individual members.

The only specification as to the effect of this Tribunal's declaration that an organization is criminal is contained in Article 10, which, if you will bear with me, I will read:

"In cases where a group or organization is declared criminal by the Tribunal, the competent national authority of any Signatory shall have the right to bring individuals to trial for membership therein before national, military, or occupation courts.

"In any such case the criminal nature of the group or organization is considered proved and shall not be questioned."

Unquestionably, it would have been competent for the Charter to have declared flatly that membership in any of these named organizations is criminal and should be punished accordingly. If there had been such an enactment, it would not have been open to an individual, who was being tried for membership, to contend that the organization was not in fact, criminal. But the framers of the Charter, acting last summer at a time before the evidence which has been adduced here was even available to us, did not care to find organizations criminal by fiat. They left that issue to determination after relevant facts were developed by adversary proceedings. Plainly, the individual is better off because of the procedure of the Charter, which leaves that finding of criminality to this body after hearings at which the organization must, and the individual may, be represented. It is at least the best assurance that we could devise, that no mistake would be made in dealing with these organizations.

Under the Charter, the groups and organizations named in the Indictment are not on trial in the conventional sense of that term. They are more nearly under investigation as they might be before a grand jury in Anglo-American practice. Article 9 recognizes a

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distinction between the declaration of a group or organization as criminal and "the trial of any individual member thereof." The power of the Tribunal to try is confined to "persons," and the Charter does not expand that term by definition, as statutes sometimes do, to include other than natural persons. The groups or organizations named in the Indictment were not as entities served with process. The Tribunal is not empowered to impose any sentence upon them as entities. For example, it may not levy a fine upon them even though they have property of the organization, nor convict any person because of membership.

It is also to be observed that the Charter does not require subsequent proceedings against anyone. It provides only that the competent national authorities shall have the right to bring individuals to trial for membership therein.

The Charter is silent as to the form that these subsequent trials should take. It was not deemed wise, on the information then available, that the Charter should regulate subsequent proceedings. Nor was it necessary to do so. There is a continuing legislative authority, representing all four signatory nations, competent to take over where the Charter leaves off. Legislative supplementation of the Charter, of course, would be necessary in any event to confer jurisdiction on local courts, to define their procedures, and to prescribe different penalties for different forms of activity.

Fear has been expressed, however, that the Charter's silence as to future proceedings means that great numbers of members will be rounded up and automatically punished as a result of a declaration that an organization is criminal. It also has been suggested that this is, or may be, the consequence of Article II, l(d) of Control Council Act Number 10, which defines as a crime "membership in categories of a criminal group or organization declared criminal by the International Military Tribunal." A purpose to inflict punishment without a right of hearing cannot be spelled out of this Charter and would be offensive to both its letter and its spirit. And I do not find in Control Council Act Number 10 any inconsistency with the Charter. Of course, to reach all individual members would require numerous hearings, but they will involve only narrow issues. Many persons will have no answers to charges if they are carefully prepared; and the proceedings should be expeditious, nontechnical, and held in the locality where the person accused resides and, incidentally, may be conducted in two languages at most.

And I think it is clear that before any person is punishable for membership in a criminal organization, he is entitled to a hearing on the facts of his case. The Charter does not authorize the national authorities to punish membership without hearing -- it

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gives them only the right to "bring individuals to trial." That means what it says. A trial means there is something to try.

The Charter denies only one of the possible defenses of an accused; he may not relitigate the question in a subsequent trial whether the organization itself was a criminal one. Nothing precludes him from denying that his participation was voluntary and proving that he acted under duress; he may prove that he was deceived or tricked into membership; he may show that he had withdrawn or he may prove that his name on the rolls is a case of mistaken identity.

The membership which the Charter and the Control Council Act make criminal, of course, implies a genuine membership involving the volition of the member. The act of affiliation with the organization must have been intentional and voluntary. Legal compulsion or illegal duress, actual fraud or trick of which one is a victim has never been thought to be the victim's crime, and such an unjust result is not to be implied now. The extent of the member's knowledge of the criminal character of the organization is, however, another matter. He may not have known on the day he joined but may have remained a member after learning the facts. And he is chargeable not only with what he knew but with all of which he was reasonably put on notice.

Only the small number of defendants in the trial were being tried for anything.

[Hartmann von Aue]

Under the Charter, the groups and organizations named in the Indictment are not on trial in the conventional sense of that term.

None of the defendants were on trial in the "conventional sense" of the term.

But the fact remains that the Nuremberg Trials were about asserting to the world that certain groups were guilty: as is specified in the indictment.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6239/atz5.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9021/bck9.jpg

To show that "right shall in the end triumph over evil."

That's why the litany of falsehoods from Katyn to Steam Chambers to claims of 4 million victims at Aushwitz were made.

[Globus]

Under the Charter, the groups and organizations named in the Indictment are not on trial in the conventional sense of that term.

None of the defendants were on trial in the "conventional sense" of the term.

Of course they were.

But the fact remains that the Nuremberg Trials were about asserting to the world that certain groups were guilty: as is specified in the indictment.

No, it was about proving that certain groups and individuals were guilty.

Just as the German courts found the Nazi Party a criminal organization in 1924, or the US did the Ku Klux Klan.

But this would all be beyond you.

That's why the litany of falsehoods from Katyn to Steam Chambers to claims of 4 million victims at Aushwitz were made.

Rubbish, as already shown.

[Hartmann von Aue]

No, it was about proving that certain groups and individuals were guilty.

Yes, about both! Now you admit it.

Blaming the Germans for Katyn was false, the steam chambers were false, the Belarussian women and children drowned in the Masurian lakes was false, the 144,000 taken out in barges into the and drowned in the black sea is false, that mass executions were carried out to the accompaniment of an orchestra at the Ganov camp, the claim that 4 million were murdered at Auschwitz is false, etc.

And there is no real proof of "the Holocaust" in general, either at Nuremberg, or today.

[Globus]

No, it was about proving that certain groups and individuals were guilty.

Yes, about both! Now you admit it.

LOL!. You're a funny little man. I admit nothing. Your claim that more than 22 people were tried has been shown to be wrong.

Blaming the Germans for Katyn was false,

Not unusual in trials to have false indictments. The charge was dropped.

the steam chambers were false,

But not the murder at Treblinka, supported by other evidence.

the Belarussian women and children drowned in the Masurian lakes was false,

Not that you've shown.

the 144,000 taken out in barges into the and drowned in the black sea is false,

Not that you've shown.

that mass executions were carried out to the accompaniment of an orchestra at the Ganov camp,

So you admit this one!

the claim that 4 million were murdered at Auschwitz is false, etc.

An incorrect early estimate hardly negates the murder of over a million people at Auschwitz.

And there is no real proof of "the Holocaust" in general,

Tons of it. But you'd have to eschew spewing ignorance and go learn some history to find out.

[eggheadbanga]

Blaming the Germans for Katyn was false, the steam chambers were false, the Belarussian women and children drowned in the Masurian lakes was false, the 144,000 taken out in barges into the and drowned in the black sea is false, that mass executions were carried out to the accompaniment of an orchestra at the Ganov camp, the claim that 4 million were murdered at Auschwitz is false, etc.

Please find any references to

1. Katyn
2. 'steam chambers'
3. Masurian Lakes
4. drownings in Black sea
5. 4 million killed at Auschwitz

or indeed any of your denier strawmen

in the Judgement of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judcont.htm

You do realise that it's the Judgement which actually counts, don't you?

And while you're at it, perhaps you'd care to go through the judgements on individual defendants or indeed your precious organisations, and show where steam etc are mentioned.

[Trojan]

You do realise that it's the Judgement which actually counts, don't you?



Perhaps Thomas777 would be kind enough to join the discussion and tell the board the diffrence between charges, counts and the final judgment or verdict.

[Dances with Wolves]

Please find any references to

1. Katyn
2. 'steam chambers'
3. Masurian Lakes
4. drownings in Black sea
5. 4 million killed at Auschwitz

or indeed any of your denier strawmen

in the Judgement of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judcont.htm

You do realise that it's the Judgement which actually counts, don't you?

And while you're at it, perhaps you'd care to go through the judgements on individual defendants or indeed your precious organisations, and show where steam etc are mentioned.

Steam, brain bashing machines, soap, lampshades, you name it, it was alleged.

For the life of me though, I can't find a judgement where gassing was found to be fact. Can you help us with that?

[cerberus]

Leon_de_PoncinsAnd there is no real proof of "the Holocaust" in general, either at Nuremberg, or today.


So you are able to say where the missing 5.3 millions are ?
And the people the British buried at Bergen-Belsen , they died of the cold ?
(And don't try and split hairs on this they died in the care of the Allgermerine-SS who ran the concentration camp system ).
D.w.W.Steam, brain bashing machines, soap, lampshades, you name it, it was alleged.
Sorry Dances with Wolves - I can't recollection Milhouse alledging these things , perhaps you are mistaken ?
These I have seen mentioned before , by revisionists. Perhaps you had best ask someone who has need of them .

[Globus]

Steam, brain bashing machines, soap, lampshades, you name it, it was alleged.

For the life of me though, I can't find a judgement where gassing was found to be fact. Can you help us with that?

Yeah, try the Auschwitz trial, the Treblinka trial, the Sobibor trial and the Belzec trial.

You could also try history books, since history does not depend on the judgment of trials.

[il ragno]

You could also try history books, since history does not depend on the judgment of trials.

I recommend Oy, Mine Endless Suffering by Yitzi Mandelbaum; Confessions of a National Socialist Werewolf by Lawrence Von Talbot, Obersturmführer (Ret.); and The Day Adolf Hitler Personally Gassed Me, My Wife, My Yorkie Pups, And 29 of My Closest Relatives by Zvi Shimkus.

[Dances with Wolves]

Leon_de_Poncins

So you are able to say where the missing 5.3 millions are ?
And the people the British buried at Bergen-Belsen , they died of the cold ?
(And don't try and split hairs on this they died in the care of the Allgermerine-SS who ran the concentration camp system ).
D.w.W.
Sorry Dances with Wolves - I can't recollection Milhouse alledging these things , perhaps you are mistaken ?
These I have seen mentioned before , by revisionists. Perhaps you had best ask someone who has need of them .

Sorry Cerberus, they are in the IMT records. No amount of wishful thinking can make them go away.

[Dances with Wolves]

I recommend Oy, Mine Endless Suffering by Yitzi Mandelbaum; Confessions of a National Socialist Werewolf by Lawrence Von Talbot, Obersturmführer (Ret.); and The Day Adolf Hitler Personally Gassed Me, My Wife, My Yorkie Pups, And 29 of My Closest Relatives by Zvi Shimkus.

Don't forget the day I survived six gassings by Moshe! An excerpt:

"I was sent to the camp gas chamber at least six times...maybe children resist better, I don't know."

[Burrhus]

5.3 million people missing. What does missing mean? It means that someone who is looking for something can't find it. It does not mean that it no longer exists. I occasionally try to locate old friends but I can't find them. They are missing WITH RESPECT TO ME, not absolutely 'missing'. They are not missing with respect to their current acquaintances.

Jews have habitually changed their names when they moved from one 'host' nation to another. Why is that benign explanation rejected in favor of the malignant contention that they were murdered? John Kerry claimed (mendaciously in my opinion) in 2004 that he had learned only recently that his family name was Cohn and that he was jewish.

Why don't the 'missing' come forward now and show themselves? And undermine the primary weapon of their in-group's current tactical move in its long-term evolutionary agenda? Not likely.

But there's money to be had from coming forward. Who says that they aren't getting it? The 'reparations' money is disbursed by jewish orgnizations. They give it to jews; the 'missing' are jews. Or they are simply willing to forego the money for the sake of the 'greater good' (of the jewish in-group).

And why only talk of 5.3 million missing? Weren't millions of others allegedly murdered and their bodies cremated with the remains scattered in the farm fields of Poland? Aren't they missing too? Why no mention of their being missing by the holocaust believers?

Because they weren't jewish? Or because they aren't missing either?

The fact that people can't be found doesn't mean that they are missing. It only means that they can't be found. If they are really dead, then lets do a thorough forensic examination of the farm fields of Poland where they were supposedly scattered. Oh no, we can't do that, disrespect the memory of the sacred dead by actually searching for their remains. That's sacrilege.

And sacrilege is not permitted by the holocaust religion.

[eggheadbanga]

Jews have habitually changed their names when they moved from one 'host' nation to another. Why is that benign explanation rejected in favor of the malignant contention that they were murdered?

Because the 'missing' Jews (which are full well known to be dead) did not move themselves voluntarily, but were deported to specific locations, a process which is exhaustively documented.


John Kerry claimed (mendaciously in my opinion) in 2004 that he had learned only recently that his family name was Cohn and that he was jewish.

So what? The family history dates back before the 1940s. By that same logic, because I am the descendant of a Russian emigre, nobody died in the Russian Civil War.

Why don't the 'missing' come forward now and show themselves? And undermine the primary weapon of their in-group's current tactical move in its long-term evolutionary agenda? Not likely.

But there's money to be had from coming forward. Who says that they aren't getting it? The 'reparations' money is disbursed by jewish orgnizations. They give it to jews; the 'missing' are jews. Or they are simply willing to forego the money for the sake of the 'greater good' (of the jewish in-group).

So where are they then, these 'missing' Jews?

And why only talk of 5.3 million missing? Weren't millions of others allegedly murdered and their bodies cremated with the remains scattered in the farm fields of Poland? Aren't they missing too? Why no mention of their being missing by the holocaust believers?

Because they weren't jewish? Or because they aren't missing either?

Because Nazis, neo-Nazis and nutzis all obsess about the "fecking" Jews, is why.

The fact that people can't be found doesn't mean that they are missing. It only means that they can't be found. If they are really dead, then lets do a thorough forensic examination of the farm fields of Poland where they were supposedly scattered. Oh no, we can't do that, disrespect the memory of the sacred dead by actually searching for their remains. That's sacrilege.

Searches for graves and remains were done in 1944-45 (all camps), again in the 1960s (Auschwitz) and again in the 1990s and 2000s (Sobibor and Belzec). Graves and remains were found.

You just don't like the results, so you insist like a pathetic bleating child that they have to be redone just to satisfy the wilful refusal to face reality of a tiny minority.

Graves containing actual bodies were found and exhumed of several million Jews and many millions more Slavs, the ones that were shot and starved to death in Russia, Belarus, the Ukraine, the Baltic states, Moldova and indeed elsewhere. They too have been re-examined since the end of the Cold War. That's quite aside from the contents of the Lodz, Warsaw and Theresienstadt cemeteries.

[cerberus]

Burrhus
5.3 million people missing. What does missing mean? It means that someone who is looking for something can't find it. It does not mean that it no longer exists. I occasionally try to locate old friends but I can't find them. They are missing WITH RESPECT TO ME, not absolutely 'missing'. They are not missing with respect to their current acquaintances.
Look at it this way Burrhus - the International red Cross claim that in any given year they recieve 150,000 requests for help in trying to locate people who disappeared into the concentration camp system / what we term as being "the holocaust".
Now Faurission said in the Zudel trial that he did not believe the "missing" people were dead , Fred Toben in his latest free to down laod history via Windows Media Player stated that they just might have been so traumatised by their experience that they just ceased being Jewish.

Let me put it another way Burrhus - "missing" is a term.
Through research unrelated to the holocaust it is possible to find close to 100,000 missing people mostly aircrew from WW2 - the official record uses the term "missing" - you can be sure they are not alive - they are in fact dead.
I say this in RESPECT to the historical record , you take my point ?
Jews have habitually changed their names when they moved from one 'host' nation to another.
This is a racist statement which means nothing - you cannot stand over it in respects of the 5.3 million "missing" people.
But there's money to be had from coming forward. Who says that they aren't getting it? The 'reparations' money is disbursed by jewish orgnizations. They give it to jews; the 'missing' are jews. Or they are simply willing to forego the money for the sake of the 'greater good' (of the jewish in-group).

This does not even merit consideration.
Because they weren't jewish?
Burrhus - I have said time and time again - the Holocaust was not a Jewish only experience , it is only those who fosuc on "the jews" who need it to be so and so far it is the revisionists who go for this .


If anything T4 shows both the Hitler goverments potential to embrace murder to accomplish its aims and its willingness to setaside law and professional ethics to do so.
So far I have yet to see any who hold your views address this issue in any way other than to try and excuse it .

If I may quote you :
(Burhuss )Why no mention of their being missing by the holocaust believers?

Because they weren't jewish? Or because they aren't missing either?


We are talking some 70,000 people and then Burhuss you may which to consider the number of physically handicaped who were forced to have sterilization thrust upon them - all in the name of protecting some imaginary "blood line" theory.
This passed for reasonable thinking amongest the leading Nazis , so reasonable was it they had to hide it.

[Winston]

the fucking Jews


One for an out-of-context signature quote, I think.

[Burrhus]

Here's a suggestion.

Globus, cerberus, MVH, trojan, CaptM, guy, Koch and the rest of the jews and philo-semitic hollow-hoax believers on the Phora go to israel and march in front of the Knesset with signs reading:

WE DEMAND A FORENSIC INVESTIGATION TO SEARCH FOR THE 5.3 MILLION MISSING JEWS!!! FREE RUDOLF AND ZUNDEL NOW!!!

I'm sure that they will listen to you loyal acolytes. Then you and and your hollow-hoax co-religionists raise $2.65 million and we revisionists will raise the same for a total of $5.3 million dollars (or more if needed). We will form a committee comprised of Robert Faurisson, Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno and Jurgen Graf in addition to four members selected by the head of Yad Vashem.

This committee will oversee the expenditure of the $5.3 million and the selection of forensic scientists who will go to Poland or wherever you think the 'missing' 5.3 million are buried, scattered or however disposed of. They will search for physical evidence of these 5.3 million missing martyr's remains be they corpses, ashes or bone fragments.

If the forensic investigation concludes that in fact the 5.3 million allegedly missing jews were murdered and their remains scattered in the farm fields or wherever, I give you my word of honor that I will crawl into the cremation oven at Auschwitz and you guys can choose amongst yourselves for one who will have the privilege of lighting the oven and burning me to a crisp.

Trust me, I will do it.

Now get on a plane, boys, and head for israel. The sooner you prove that you are right and I am wrong, the sooner you can send me to join those 5.3 million missing jews.

Note to my fellow revisionists: The upside of this is that we won't have these "worse than mad" hollow-hoax believers around for at least ten years. They'll be in an israeli prison.

If they aren't gassed and cremated by the jews instead.

Hey, cerb, glob, mvh...fellows...why are you still reading this post? You should be on your way. Burrhus in the oven! Keep that image in your thoughts. That should be incentive enough if justice for the 5.3 allegedly missing jews isn't enough.

Are you STILL reading. Damn it, get moving.

Unless of course you know that the holocaust story is a lie. If that is the case, then don't go.

Bon voyage...or not, as the case may be.

[Trojan]

Was that your substitute for an intellecutal argument in support of your position? :confused:

[ivory bill]

Was that your substitute for an intellecutal argument in support of your position? :confused:

Was that a hastily dashed off one-liner attempt to have the last word or your genuine effort at "intellecutal" argument? :confused:

[Globus]

Here's a suggestion.

Globus, cerberus, MVH, trojan, CaptM, guy, Koch and the rest of the jews and philo-semitic hollow-hoax believers on the Phora go to israel and march in front of the Knesset with signs reading:

WE DEMAND A FORENSIC INVESTIGATION TO SEARCH FOR THE 5.3 MILLION MISSING JEWS!!! FREE RUDOLF AND ZUNDEL NOW!!!

Why would we want to look stupid suggesting such a thing!

"Forensic investigations" are not used to prove genocides. Burrhus here can't cite a single genocide for which such an investigation was done or necessary. When you realize that, it is easy to see that deniers merely like to set up silly standards that have no rational justification, but give them something to say when they've failed so miserably to address the evidence for genocide, or alternatively, explain what happened to millions of missing Jews.

Having said that, numerous such investigations have been done, as has been explained before.

The caliber of deniers continues to decline.

[cerberus]

BurrhusWE DEMAND A FORENSIC INVESTIGATION TO SEARCH FOR THE 5.3 MILLION MISSING JEWS!!! FREE RUDOLF AND ZUNDEL NOW!!!

You will I trust be a sponsor of this walk ?
Burrhus - unless you missed it Milhouse has already answered on the subject of bodies and remains.
In case you missed it pm Milhouse - he will be pleased to direct you to it.
The rest really didn't say anything so I will call quits at that.


In advance to one and all and without exception , I trust you will all have a happy New Year. ( And a flame free one).:)

[delete]

Burrhus

You will I trust be a sponsor of this walk ?
Burrhus - unless you missed it Milhouse has already answered on the subject of bodies and remains.
In case you missed it pm Milhouse - he will be pleased to direct you to it.
The rest really didn't say anything so I will call quits at that.


This is typical of hoaxer tactics, you claim the answer or rebuttal is temporary unavailible, but can be gotten hold of by some effort.

I hope every reader recognizes this dirty tactic, as it also keeps the average lurker in the dark.

I bet you know that we think Milhouse is a theologian in holocaustianity, and thus probably describe his 'answer' as empty metaphysic and sophistery.

[cerberus]

delete - no such thing I am sorry to say .
Body disposal is well known - Milhouse made a general reply to alude to the fact that it ws well known , he didn't go into it in detail.

No dirty tricks , tell you what start a thread on it - I am sure you will get enought to keep you busy.

[Globus]

Originally Posted by cerberus

You will I trust be a sponsor of this walk ?
Burrhus - unless you missed it Milhouse has already answered on the subject of bodies and remains.
In case you missed it pm Milhouse - he will be pleased to direct you to it.
The rest really didn't say anything so I will call quits at that.

This is typical of hoaxer tactics, you claim the answer or rebuttal is temporary unavailible, but can be gotten hold of by some effort.

He didn't claim any such thing.

I hope every reader recognizes this dirty tactic, as it also keeps the average lurker in the dark.

Your confusion is a dirty tactic?

I bet you know that we think Milhouse is a theologian in holocaustianity,

And your opinion has nothing to do with your denial, and an inability to say much of anything other than things like this, right?