Absurd German Tactics in The Battle Of Stalingrad

[Captain Aceman Superstar]

The Germans expended great energy, time and resources on trying to capture such buildings as the Red October steel factory, Pavlov's House and the Grain Elevator intact. Why not just bomb/shell them flat? :confused:

[VAMPIR]

The Germans expended great energy, time and resources on trying to capture such buildings as the Red October steel factory, Pavlov's House and the Grain Elevator intact. Why not just bomb/shell them flat? :confused:
Because they needed them...

[Captain Aceman Superstar]

incorrect .

[cerberus]

When Stalingrad was captured all but a very small area of the City and the bombing of the City did not contribute greatly to the capture of it - if anything it presented the Russians with a battlefield which was suited more to them than to the Germans.

Bombing the city flat - well it was bombed as flat as you could possibly try to.

The battle for the City as time progressed became but part of the hand of cards held by the Russians , and they played them perfectly.
Hitlers eyes could see only the City and Stalins name on it - although warned he failed to react to the growing problems of 6th Army and to the exposed flank of the whole German position in Southern Russia.

The problems encountered by the Germans are well known and more credit should be given to the Russians for their mastery in dictating the terms of the battle and for the control they exercised.

Sadly for the German Army Von Paulus would not move without an express order from Hitler who even saw the belated attempt from Manstein as a relief of the City which was to reinforce the hold rather than an attempt to extract the Army from a position they should never have been in the first place had it not been for Hitler's leadership.

Stalingrad was bad , but it was almost the total loss of the entire German Southern Wing in Russia - four things prevented this .
1. Hausser's withdrawl of 1st SS Panzer Corp from Kharkov. (Against a direct order to hold the City).
2. Hitler's loss of his nerve .
3. Russian over confidence.
4. Manstein's holding his and using time and space as a breathing space to assemble and time a counter stroke which caught the Russians when they were over extending themselves.

The assult on the factory sector - all down to Hitler's need to destroy all Rusiansd on the West bank of the Volga , the City had already been captured and river traffic had been cut.

[Captain Aceman Superstar]

I don't think that river traffic was stopped. The Germans' failure to detroy Russian artillery on the east bank was dissappointing.

[VAMPIR]

incorrect .
Since year of 1935 Germany tried to negotiate with USSR to make bigger gas and oil deal... Stalingrad is the capital of USSR's oil industry...

[VAMPIR]

I don't think that river traffic was stopped. The Germans' failure to detroy Russian artillery on the east bank was dissappointing.
So, I guess you're sorry for Germans not conquired Russia?

[Captain Aceman Superstar]

Well, the city was 80% or more ruined by German bombing and shelling. But the examples that I gave

Pavlov's House - was just an apartment block
The Grain Elevator - unimportant
Red October factory - unimportant

These buildings were almost worthless to Germany, as far as I can tell.

[Captain Aceman Superstar]

So, I guess you're sorry for Germans not conquired Russia?

No, I supported the U.S.S.R. in World War 2.

[Aragorn]

No, I supported the U.S.S.R. in World War 2.


Communist????

There was, there is and there will never be a perfect system as National-Socialism. Communism, Marxism, Democrazy, Liberalism: it is all crap from the hand of the Jews!!

[Captain Marinesko]

Well, the city was 80% or more ruined by German bombing and shelling. But the examples that I gave

Pavlov's House - was just an apartment block
The Grain Elevator - unimportant
Red October factory - unimportant

These buildings were almost worthless to Germany, as far as I can tell.


Pavlov's house had a very good view of the city, and the Red October factor was along the Volga, so taking it would give one an advantageous position, at least at the tactical level.

I can't remember the exact location of the grain elevator. I know it was in the south of the city but I can't remember its proximity to the river.

BTW I am very hungover from last night so I apologize if there are any inaccuracies in that.

[cerberus]

Captain Marinesko
BTW I am very hungover from last night so I apologize if there are any inaccuracies in that.
Totally excused - you need "the hair of the dog wgich bit you":)

Had to look at a map of the city.
Grain Silo - southern end of city 3 miles SE of Main Station , Red October Factory , Barrikady Factory 6 -8 miles NE of Station -DzwzhinskyTractor Factory amile north again.

From my memory of the city it was all built on uneven ground , cuts , not good for attacking troops , add to that blocked streets demolished buildings partly destroyed buildings which to a large extent are inmune to further damage.

[Captain Marinesko]

We could pull a Revisionist and claim that the Germans, being such great tactical geniuses, would have never made bone-headed mistakes in such an important battle, ergo the Battle of Stalingrad didn't take place. I believe the Mad Revisionist did a piece on that.

I've studied history on my own for years, spending hundreds if not a few thousand on books- now I'm realizing that it's much cheaper and easier to just claim things didn't happen. I'm adding Stalingrad to the list.

[VAMPIR]

We could pull a Revisionist and claim that the Germans, being such great tactical geniuses, would have never made bone-headed mistakes in such an important battle, ergo the Battle of Stalingrad didn't take place. I believe the Mad Revisionist did a piece on that.

I've studied history on my own for years, spending hundreds if not a few thousand on books- now I'm realizing that it's much cheaper and easier to just claim things didn't happen. I'm adding Stalingrad to the list.
Congrats!!! :) Its hard to listen ''trendy'' persons of todays who denie truth.

[cerberus]

Captain Marinesko and Cernoborg - all good points .:)

[cerberus]

This was written by Alan clarke in the late 1960's but by and large it has travelled well.

The river traffic - yes Clarke was of the opinion that German efforts to silence the Russians on the east bank were poor - owning much to the tactics employed assulting ruins rather than concentrating attackes on important areas until they were taken -eg The landing area.
The redeployment of the Luftwaffe to the South did not help matters.

Whilst river traffic ( commercial had been stopped , the russians still brought in just enough men and materials to keep the battle alive and to bog down the 6th Army which was bled to death in a battle they could not win on ground forced upon them by Hitler , Paulus and the Russians.

Clarke wrote.
"Paulus' attempt to eliminate Stalingrad as a focus of Soviet resistance were unnecessarily extravagant: he mishandled the battle from the start and made the mistake of switching targets instead of trying to wipe out the Soviet supply ferries across the Volga, and cut off the garrison by concentrating on thw ings of the Soviet position. Paulus tried to push through to the Volga on as broad a front as possible . In three major "offensives" of the battle, the Soviet defenders were quick to adapt to the changing tactics of the germansand they held their footholds on the West bankonly by their mas of artillery on the east bank. Paulus's Luftwaffe strength was never concentrated against the Soviet artillery or supply ferries.He threw all the formitable resources of the 6th Army into battering Stalingrad into rubble and achieved nothing but the attrition of his own forces". (page 1141).
The following has been used in "The World at War2 - from the diary of a German soldier who fought in Stalingrad.
September 16th:Our battalion, plus tanks, is attacking the elevator, from which smoke is pouring - the grain in it is burning, the Russians seem to have set alight to it themselves .Barbarism. The battalion is sufferring heavy losses.There are not more than sixty men left in each company . the elevator is occupied not by men but by devils that no flames or bullets can destroy.
September 18thFighting is going on inside the elevator.The Russians inside are condemned men;the battalion commander says;"The commissars have ordered those men to die in the elevator"
If all the buildings of Stalingrad are defended like this , then none of our soldiers will ever get back to germany. I had a letter from Elsa today. She's expecting me home when victory's won.
September 20thThe battle for the elevator is still going on.The Russians are firing on all sides. We stay in our cellar; you can't go into the street. Sergeant-Major Nuschke was killed today running across a street.Poor fellow , he's got three children
September 22ndRussian resistance in the elevator has been broken . Our troops ar advancing towads the Volga. We found about forty Russian dead in the elevator building. half of them were wearing naval uniform - sea devils. One prisoner was captured seriously wounded, who can't speak, or is shamming.

A lieutnant of the XXIV Panzer Division wrote ;
We have fought for 15 days for a single house, with mortars , grenades, machine guns and bayonets. Already by the third day 54 german corpses are strewn in the cellars, on the landings and on the staircases.the front is a corridor between burnt-out rooms: it is te thin ceiling between floors.help comes from neighbouring houses by fire escapes and chimneys.there is a ceaseless struggle from noon to night.from storey to storey faces black with sweat, we bombard each other, with grenades in the middle of explosions, clouds of dust and smoke, heaps of mortar , floods of blood, fragments of furniture and human beings. Ask any soldier what half an hour of hand to hanad strugle means in such a fight. And imagine Stalingrad;80 days and 80 nights of hand to hand strugles.the street is no longer measured by metres but by corpses..........Stalingrad is no loner a town. By day it is an enormous cloud of burning, blinding smoke;it is a vast furnace lit by the reflection of the flames.And when night arrives one of thosse scorching, howling, bleedingnights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the oter bank.the nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them.Animals flee this hell;the hardest stones cannot bear it for long;only men endure.

[Sudaev]

Here's a new book (kinda pricey) about the The Battle for the Barrikady Gun Factory in Stalingrad:

http://www.larrys-books.biz/servlet/Detail?no=893

Bookmark this site; it's got some good stuff.

[cerberus]

Larry is a good man to buy from - USA to Ireland - 5-7 days - good by any mans standards and his postage rates are better than some other US based sellers.
Gets may vote.

[cerberus]

Delos - I can't agree - the few soldiers which Finland could field would never have made a considerable difference.
The failure in the north was down to a decision not to take Lenningrad but to lay seige to the city , starve its out and then level it to the ground.
failure to take Murmansk / Archangel - resources , weather conditions and stuborn Russian resistance - it was always a back water to centre and southwhich increasingly consumed the resources.
What the Finish Army might have sent ot Stalingrad - given the strem roller which was unleashed its highly likely that they would simply have joined the ranks of the dead.

[cerberus]

I would agree that they could have made it difficult for the Russians but could they have made such a significant difference ?
If the german divisions sent to Africa been sent to Russia would that have tipped the balance ?

[Sudaev]

I was under the impression that the Finns told the Germans up front that they only wanted to recover the lands that had been taken from them by the Soviets.

[cerberus]

Bg. of hate
I was under the impression that the Finns told the Germans up front that they only wanted to recover the lands that had been taken from them by the Soviets.
This was my understanding as well.

[cerberus]

Delos
A good chance, but they tied up the English forces, which bought them time before the English were capable of invading Italy and France. There is no way to know if defeating the USSR would have demoralised the English into surrender.

I don't think it would have made any difference - they had been "alone" apart from lend lease aid from the US since June 40.
The fall of the middle east would probably have had greater impact - it would have left India more or less isloated and Malta vunerable , Suez , Egypt gone Turkey would probaly have declared for the Axis making Russia decidedly nervous in the south.
It would be hard to see Churchill hanging on as PM.

The Finns - good in their own area but in Southern Russia - another ally in need of German equipment which was already in short supply in terms of tanks , transport and spare parts.
Even on home round they would have required a substantial diverson of resources.

Russia was the wrong war for Germany - even if they had been able to deploy all resources to the east - the industrial output of Russia was too much tanks and aircraft alone swamped anything that Germany might be able to produce - the T-34 provided an example in which both quality and numbers would turn against Germany.
The few divisions from Africa would not have made a significant difference in Russia but a few of the troops deployed t Russia would at the right time have turned the tide in the middle east and brought significant rewards both material and political.
At best Germany could have hoped for a seperate peace with Russia in 1942 this should have been their goal , or at least been under consideration.
You could say that they needed time to consolidate land after their new victory, but this consolidation didn't help in the final push for Moscow. Of course, we have the benefit of hindsight.
A final push for Moscow - would it have brought Victory - I think a sepearte peace with Russia would have been the best germany could have obtained - unless the Soviet state collapsed , which is unlikely.
Equally under consideration would be how best to administer the ground and resources obtained in the east - as it was it was ( as Milhouse pointed out never held long enough to ) nor the people won over to the German cause occupied and administered along racial grounds ensureed a harvest of hatred rather than one of good will and co operation.