Advanced light skinned ancient race found in Amazon

[Holly]

What an exciting discovery, a place with many artifacts and mummies of the Chachapoyas, which meens "Cloud Warriors". They were a tall, fairhaired, light-skinned race that some researchers believe may have come from Europe.
Here is the article.
_____________________________________________________-

Moment 600 years ago that terror came to Mummies of the Amazon
10.01.07


Hands over her eyes and her face gripped with terror, the woman's fear of death is all too obvious.

The remarkable mummy was found in a hidden burial vault in the Amazon.

It is at least 600 years old and has survived thanks to the embalming skills of her tribe, the Chachapoyas or cloud warriors.

Eleven further mummies were recovered from the massive cave complex 82ft down.

The vault - which was also used for worship - was chanced upon three months ago by a farmer working at the edge of northern Peru's rainforest. He tipped off scientists who uncovered ceramics, textiles and wall paintings.

The Chachapoyas were a tall, fairhaired, light-skinned race that some researchers believe may have come from Europe.

Little is known about them except that they were one of the more advanced ancient civilisations in the area. Adept at fighting, they commanded a large kingdom from the year 800 to 1500 that stretched across the Andes.

It is not known what the Chachapoyas actually called themselves - they are identified by the name given to them by their rivals and eventual conquerors, the Incas.

It comes from the Inca's Quechua language and means 'cloud people', because of the high forests in the clouds that the Chachapoyas inhabited.

Virtually all record of the tribe was lost when the Incas were themselves overrun by the Spanish conquistadors who landed in 1512.

They have, however, left behind a spectacular citadel, called Kuelap, 10,000ft up in the Andes.

It has more than 400 buildings and defensive towers, many of them with decorated walls, cornices and friezes.

Some experts rate Kuelap more highly than the Incan ruins at Machu Picchu.

Herman Crobera, the leader of the archaeological team that explored the cave, said: 'This is a discovery of transcendental importance.

'It is the first time any kind of underground burial site this size has been found belonging to Chachapoyas or other cultures in the region.'

He said walls near the mummies in the limestone cave were covered with paintings of faces and warriorlike figures which may have been drawn to ward off intruders and evil spirits.

'The remote site for this cemetery tells us that the Chachapoyas had enormous respect for their ancestors because they hid them away for protection,' added Mr Crobera.

'Locals call the cave Iyacyecuj, or enchanted water, because of its spiritual importance and its underground rivers.' The archaeologists have not yet established an accurate age for their finds.

Once they have finished exploring and excavating the tomb, Peruvian authorities want to turn it into a museum. The mummies are going on show at the Museum of the Nation in the capital Lima.

http://tinyurl.com/ygfdbs

[EdwardSmith]

It makes sense that people that live in a cloudy forested region would evolve
light skin, despite it's equatorial location. Light skin serves to create more
vitamin D when the sunlight is not strong enough to cause a threat of skin cancer
and folic acid destruction. Considering the environmental traits of the region, it is
more likely that the people were indigenous. If, however, the people lived in a dry
open savanna on the same latitude, then the people WOULD more likely be of
foreign origin.

[Holly]

What you say may have some logic EdwardSmith however it also said they were tall with fair hair in addition to the light skin, which I take is not common at all for that area. I do not know how living in moutain conditions could evolve such traits that are unknown for that area, or if there are migrants from a Europa area. Hopefully this discovery may make some sense of that.

[barbarroja]

Jacqued de Mahieu, a french pro-axis man who come to Argentina in the Peron presidence, was an anthropologist and arquelologist.
He wrote a lot of books and made a lot of expeditions bringing data about:
nordic travels to North America,
Nordics travels to Mexico and Centro-America
european travels to Amazonia (Paraguay, Argentina, Brazil), and european race among the incas high society (including mummies with red hair, now in the peruvian museums).
Even the culture, myths and indian religions where heavy-ly touch by the presence of white gods, red beards chosen ones coming from the east, light skin people mounting beasts coming from the territories to the sun-rise, and the use of crosses and swastikas, and the white-red-black colours in some sacred rites in honor of whites gods.
Although Dr. Jacques de Mahieu wrote his texts in French and Spanish.

[EdwardSmith]

I forgot about the fair hair (which I assume means 'blond hair' and/or 'red hair').

Tall stature is common enough in hot equatorial regions.
Light hair however, is a non-adaptive trait that only exists due to sexual selection,
and is therefore an indicator of foreign origin.

Where does the evidence of fair hair come from? If it comes from mummies,
then you should know that sometimes the eumelanin in the hair of mummies
decays, causing the hair to appear lighter than it was in the living person.

There is also the possibility that an albino gene of some kind simultaneously
caused the light skin and the light hair, such that the light hair is a side-effect
of the light skin adaptation. Light hair does occasionally occur in non-europeans,
such as in australian aboriginies.

To answer the question conclusively, scientists should examine the skull shape
of the Chachapoya bodies and compare it to that of europeans and indigenous
south americans.

The Chachapoyas might be a hybrid race, caused by transient european explorers
breeding with locals.

[Holly]

I have thought the same thing, how can they tell hair/skin color from a ancient mummy. I think you are right, bone struktur/features might reveal more of their orgins than anything else. If they are hybrids they should have common features of both I would think.

[LastResort56]

A thread with the same exact article was posted a while back.
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=283573#post283573

Also, another thread that showed a map of Northern European migration to the Americas.
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18337

[Ambrosio Spinola]

The notion itself is quite ridiculous.

[Holly]

[QUOTE=LastResort56]A thread with the same exact article was posted a while back.
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=283573#post283573


Yes, I posted mine 1/11 and this one was posted 1/12 so mine was first.
I noticed that too, that happens from time to time.

[Sulla the Dictator]

"White nationalists" indulge in this sort of fantasy too often.

[Holly]

So now you guys argue with science and discovery, is that based on anything but a personal opinion ?
If yes, please share. If not, why bother to gripe about it ?
I personaly would not care either way, but if there was a very advanced race found there it figures they would be white and if science evidence is found to prove that, very good.

[Kriger]

It's science:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1816823.ece

It will be interesting to see what science learns about these white-skinned people through modern technology.

[delete]

It's science:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1816823.ece

It will be interesting to see what science learns about these white-skinned people through modern technology.

Don't get yor hopes up just yet. No official DNA testing of the egyptian mummies, and the same goes for the tocharians or the siberian Ice queen.

[Kriger]

Don't get yor hopes up just yet. No official DNA testing of the egyptian mummies, and the same goes for the tocharians or the siberian Ice queen.

There is always hope, delete, even in this violent/destructive/polluted world.

It did not get much press at the time, which is not surprising, but DNA testing was done on the mummies of Takla Makan. I am only aware of it because I am an amateur pre-history fanatic.

There were many political complications involved before permission for the testing was granted, but this article gives a good summation of the findings and the background of the Takla Makan desert civilization. It seems they are of Celtic origin.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1222214.ece

[EvilRosebuds]

The Aryan race has been far travelled throughout history and as far back as ancient times. They went to China, India and even the Americas taking wisdom, knowledge, mega-stone building and science with them. It's highly likely that these light skinned peoples in the Amazon were indeed of Aryan racial stock. Why should they be anyone else?

[Kriger]

The Aryan race has been far travelled throughout history and as far back as ancient times. They went to China, India and even the Americas taking wisdom, knowledge, mega-stone building and science with them. It's highly likely that these light skinned peoples in the Amazon were indeed of Aryan racial stock. Why should they be anyone else?

This is one of the many areas in which science is good for, to verify that what we have felt to be true is indeed true.

It silences the skeptics.

[Holly]

I will take it from the silence of the doubters that this doubt is from personal opinions and even hopes [which is fine] and not based on any evidence.
No matter how it does turn out, a very very great find, such ancient relic and mummys in such uncommon condition.

[LastResort56]

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator
"White nationalists" indulge in this sort of fantasy too often.

I see White Nationalist now includes Peruvian scientists and archaeologists.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I see White Nationalist now includes Peruvian scientists and archaeologists.

LOL Not really. I suppose I need to point out what Ebusitanus was too polite to mention. :p

The Chachapoya are NOW a vanished people. They were not, however, gone when the Spanish arrived. They were vanquished by the Inca and then helped the Spanish once they reached Peru.

Do you think the Spanish MISSED the fact that a tribe of Europeans was walking around South America, fighting for them as auxilleries? Because they don't mention it, strangely enough. This is the difference between getting information from books of history and getting it from web articles spread through BBs like pox.

[Der Sozialist]

LOL Not really. I suppose I need to point out what Ebusitanus was too polite to mention. :p

The Chachapoya are NOW a vanished people. They were not, however, gone when the Spanish arrived. They were vanquished by the Inca and then helped the Spanish once they reached Peru.

Do you think the Spanish MISSED the fact that a tribe of Europeans was walking around South America, fighting for them as auxilleries? Because they don't mention it, strangely enough. This is the difference between getting information from books of history and getting it from web articles spread through BBs like pox.
It is becoming somewhat disconcerting that some of these "theories" are making their way onto the phora where every civilized culture is somehow explained by a Scandinavian migration.

You really shouldn’t take the time to reply Sulla—such predispositions as to believe these "theories" are evidence enough that rationality is no longer a weapon in one’s arsenal.

They should be allowed their a-men corner where everything from Easter Island to India is a product of 6-foot tall Nordics.

[Björn]

In reference to a previous post about fair hair and taller bodies, it was said that forest dwelling native americans were taller in stature than the flatland natives. The hair could also correspond to the skin tone. This is something that I have always been curious about considering that regardless of heat we get roughly the same level of exposer to sunlight regardless of distance from the equater unless some other adverse side effect were in place such as a mountain and forest covered region such as the fjords.

[The Retard]

LOL Not really. I suppose I need to point out what Ebusitanus was too polite to mention. :p

The Chachapoya are NOW a vanished people. They were not, however, gone when the Spanish arrived. They were vanquished by the Inca and then helped the Spanish once they reached Peru.

Do you think the Spanish MISSED the fact that a tribe of Europeans was walking around South America, fighting for them as auxilleries? Because they don't mention it, strangely enough. This is the difference between getting information from books of history and getting it from web articles spread through BBs like pox.

From Wikipedia:

The chronicler Pedro Cieza de León offers some picturesque notes about the Chachapoyas:

"They are the whitest and most handsome of all the people that I have seen in Indies, and their wives were so beautiful that because of their gentleness, many of them deserved to be the Incas' wives and to also be taken to the Sun Temple (...) The women and their husbands always dressed in woolen clothes and in their heads they wear their llautos, which are a sign they wear to be known everywhere."

-------

[Sulla the Dictator]

From Wikipedia:

The chronicler Pedro Cieza de León offers some picturesque notes about the Chachapoyas:

"They are the whitest and most handsome of all the people that I have seen in Indies, and their wives were so beautiful that because of their gentleness, many of them deserved to be the Incas' wives and to also be taken to the Sun Temple (...) The women and their husbands always dressed in woolen clothes and in their heads they wear their llautos, which are a sign they wear to be known everywhere."

-------

The pseudo-scientist Savoy also says that the Chachapoyas had blue eyes and blonde hair, and are descended from Phonecian traders. I believe de Leon said that the Chachopoyas were powerful sorcerers as well. :p

Perhaps I was too kind in stamping out this fantasy earlier. Lets be thorough:

Preliminary analysis from Laguna de los Condores, Laguna Huallabamba, and Los Pinchudos document rather typical Native American physiognomies that may reflect variation within the parameters of the Andean populations. Not a shred of evidence supports the notion of "White" European or Mediteranean descent. In fact, studies of DNA from mortuary remains at Laguna Huallabamba linked the cadaver to a living descendant in the nearby village of Utchucmarca, a case demonstrating biological continuity between ancient and modern populations not unlike Britain's "Cheddar Man".

http://anthro.colstate.edu/Church2006.pdf

[Aryan Imperium]

The Aryan race has been far travelled throughout history and as far back as ancient times. They went to China, India and even the Americas taking wisdom, knowledge, mega-stone building and science with them. It's highly likely that these light skinned peoples in the Amazon were indeed of Aryan racial stock. Why should they be anyone else?

Indeed.
Aryan man has a pioneering spirit. If he can colonise the Americas in recent times and India and China in the distant past then it is not beyond the bounds of reason to suggest that this tribe are the descendants of explorers from Europe.
Look at how far Viking civilisation spread in the early Middle Ages. What was crucial to this process apart from the pioneering spirit was ship building technology, something Germanic man has always excelled in.

[Aryan Imperium]

In reference to a previous post about fair hair and taller bodies, it was said that forest dwelling native americans were taller in stature than the flatland natives. The hair could also correspond to the skin tone. This is something that I have always been curious about considering that regardless of heat we get roughly the same level of exposer to sunlight regardless of distance from the equater unless some other adverse side effect were in place such as a mountain and forest covered region such as the fjords.

Environmental factors have never affected racial physical characteristics.
Look at how long the Germanic peoples and the Saami have lived alongside each other in the far north of Scandinavia and yet they have remained distinctly different physically. The environment has not caused the phenotype of either people to mutate.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Environmental factors have never affected racial physical characteristics.


Nazis are anti-science. Racial theory in Nazi circles is more or less mysticism.

[Vasily Zaitsev]

Environmental factors have never affected racial physical characteristics.

Natural selection is what then?

[Aryan Imperium]

Natural selection is what then?


Nothing more than the ability of the strongest to survive, mate with the best females and continue their genetic line.
What it is not about is mongoloids turning in to Europoids, Europoids turning in to negroids and negroids turning in to australoids. If you can find any evidence that I am wrong then post it!

[Aryan Imperium]

Nazis are anti-science. Racial theory in Nazi circles is more or less mysticism.

What you refer to as `science` is nothing more than atheism turned into a religion with its own doctrines and dogmas and priestly caste.

[Vasily Zaitsev]

Nothing more than the ability of the strongest to survive, mate with the best females and continue their genetic line.
What it is not about is mongoloids turning in to Europoids, Europoids turning in to negroids and negroids turning in to australoids. If you can find any evidence that I am wrong then post it!

So how do seperate races and species come to be?

Anyway, the Sami and some of the tribes in Siberia could be considered extant transitional forms and could very well represent surviving populations of the common ancestor of the caucasoid and the mongoloid.

[Aryan Imperium]

So how do seperate races and species come to be?

Anyway, the Sami and some of the tribes in Siberia could be considered extant transitional forms and could very well represent surviving populations of the common ancestor of the caucasoid and the mongoloid.


It is a very wise man who can speculate on the origins of human life. What are you going to say next, that there was an Adam and an Eve and we all descended from one pair of human parents??:rofl:

[Sulla the Dictator]

What you refer to as `science` is nothing more than atheism turned into a religion with its own doctrines and dogmas and priestly caste.

Ummmm.......are you about to cast a spell?

[delete]

So how do seperate races and species come to be?

Anyway, the Sami and some of the tribes in Siberia could be considered extant transitional forms and could very well represent surviving populations of the common ancestor of the caucasoid and the mongoloid.

White people arrived before the Sami. The sami entered scandinavia around 500 AC. IIRC is proven that the Finns had got their asian admixture from others than sami, and that this happened before the sami arrived.

[Vasily Zaitsev]

White people arrived before the Sami. The sami entered scandinavia around 500 AC. IIRC is proven that the Finns had got their asian admixture from others than sami, and that this happened before the sami arrived.

When the Sami arrived in Scandinavia has no bearing on what they are racially. My point was that the Sami and physically smiliar groups in Siberia represent a middleground between caucasoid and mongoloid that doesn't come from mixing the two together. Hence the hypothesis that they are surviving populations of the common ancestor.

[ivory bill]

They should be allowed their a-men corner where everything from Easter Island to India is a product of 6-foot tall Nordics.

An amen-corner that kindly allows those who are envious of 6-foot tall Nordics to snipe at them and express their own frustration at being the squat and swarthy spawn of lesser races.