Commentary: The Transformation of the Roman World

[Fade the Butcher]

I'm changing this to the commentary thread.

[Micaelis]

After reading this timeline, I have only one thing to say:

Long Live the Kingdom of Heaven!

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

[Fade the Butcher]

The timeline is nowhere near finished.

[Micaelis]

The timeline is nowhere near finished.

Highlighting in bold the deaths and displacement of pagans in Europe proves that Christ did not exist? Considering such incidents, the contrary is affirmed, that Christ did exist, and that His Church led a momentous, history-shaking triumph over the old foundations of the East and West, as was prophesied by Him.

[Fade the Butcher]

Are you drunk? :p

No seriously, I am putting together the bare bones of the timeline at the moment. I plan on using it to show the fate of science, philosophy, and rest of the liberal arts after the triumph of Christianity.

[Micaelis]

Are you drunk? :p

No seriously, I am putting together the bare bones of the timeline at the moment. I plan on using it to show the fate of science, philosophy, and rest of the liberal arts after the triumph of Christianity.

Anything that was paganistic or contained paganistic undertones was condemned and purged by the Holy Inquisition. What do you want us Catholics to do about it? Play a violin for you and wintermute? Shall we scorn the orders that were born out of the Church, the Catholic teachers that formed the University, the great aesthetes, theologians, philosophers and leaders of men that were working in the glory of Christendom? I don't think so.

[Micaelis]

Are you drunk? :p

Not unless you're buying. ;) A glass of wine sounds good by now. Salud, Fade!

[Fade the Butcher]

Anything that was paganistic or contained paganistic undertones was condemned and purged by the Holy Inquisition. What do you want us Catholics to do about it? Play a violin for you and wintermute? Shall we scorn the orders that were born out of the Church, the Catholic teachers that formed the University, the great aesthetes, theologians, philosophers and leaders of men that were working in the glory of Christendom? I don't think so.

The Inquisition is another story from a much later time period. This thread shall be use to track the descent of Europe into the Dark Ages.

[Micaelis]

The Inquisition is another story from a much later time period. This thread shall be use to track the descent of Europe into the Dark Ages.

Quote your working thesis.

[Fade the Butcher]

Quote your working thesis.

The Roman Empire was transformed from within by Christians who proceeded to repress and destroy the Greek scientific tradition after their rise to power. The long term effect of this was the Dark Ages which lasted until the eleventh century.

[Micaelis]

The Roman Empire was transformed from within by Christians who proceeded to repress and destroy the Greek scientific tradition after their rise to power. The long term effect of this was the Dark Ages which lasted until the eleventh century.

So you are saying that the repression of ancient Greek science alone led to the Dark Ages. Interesting, but you are overlooking a lot of political and sociological factors at work, the crumbling of old power structures and the fragmentation of vast territories once ruled by a single or a couple of heads into a multitude of chaotic and aggressive realms vying for political existence. It's too simplistic, Fade. You have been criticised on this for a reason.

[Petr]

Anything that was paganistic or contained paganistic undertones was condemned and purged by the Holy Inquisition. What do you want us Catholics to do about it? Play a violin for you and wintermute? Shall we scorn the orders that were born out of the Church, the Catholic teachers that formed the University, the great aesthetes, theologians, philosophers and leaders of men that were working in the glory of Christendom? I don't think so.
San, in all due respect, you shouldn't have answered this thread.

Fade is just screaming for attention with this pseudo-scholarly claptrap. We shouldn't give him that.

Do not feed trolls or attention-whores!


Petr

[Fade the Butcher]

So you are saying that the repression of ancient Greek science alone led to the Dark Ages.

No. The repression of science and philosophy was but one example of the cultural change brought about by Christianity. The demise of the classical schools, the end of the Olympic Games and Eleusian Mysteries, the destruction of the pagan temples, the disappearance of the gymnasia, the massive transfer of wealth to the church, closure of the baths, the vandalism and destruction of classical art, the spread of monasteries and the rejection of the world, the glorification of ignorance and the demonization of curiosity; all of this piled up and sucked Europe down the drain into the Dark Ages.

Interesting, but you are overlooking a lot of political and sociological factors at work, the crumbling of old power structures and the fragmentation of vast territories once ruled by a single or a couple of heads into a multitude of chaotic and aggressive realms vying for political existence. It's too simplistic, Fade. You have been criticised on this for a reason.

The major factor was Christianity. At the beginning of the transformation, around the early fourth century, one culture, its worldview, and institutions were in place. Towards the end of the transformation, around the beginning of the eighth century, another culture, its worldview, and institutions had triumphed and displaced its predecessor. The effect of the barbarian invasions has been exaggerated (outside Britain and Northeastern Gaul). The barbarians didn't change much. They were few in number and generally established themselves in relatively unpopulated areas. Most of them admired Roman civilization and sought to preserve it. In Burgundy, Africa, Aquitaine, Spain, and Italy they maintained the existing status quo. In order to govern their new kingdoms, they turned naturally enough to - surprise, surprise - the indigenous Roman bureaucracy and the bishops. There was only one group in the West that had an ideological axe to grind against classical civilization: the monks who, inspired by Christianity, despised "profane culture."

[Micaelis]

So Christianity destroyed paganism and created a new empire based upon its own creed. Where is the revelation, Fade?

[Fade the Butcher]

So Christianity destroyed paganism and created a new empire based upon its own creed. Where is the revelation, Fade?

Christianity became the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire. A radically different set of values triumphed and displaced the old values; values which discouraged scientific progress and interest in philosophy.

[Micaelis]

San, in all due respect, you shouldn't have answered this thread.

Fade is just screaming for attention with this pseudo-scholarly claptrap. We shouldn't give him that.

Do not feed trolls or attention-whores!


Petr

The further this thread progresses, the more evident your point becomes, Petr. What can we deduce from Fade's posts?

1. Christianity destroyed paganism thereby displacing today's pseudo-pagans and satan worshippers, such as wintermute
2. This displacement is transformed into an attempted guilt-tripping of Christians through the theme "The Crimes of Christianity" and all of its major and minor manifestations
3. This new "crime" of theirs is espoused through highlighting events such as the destruction of pagan temples and the physical destruction of pagan bodies, both textual and biological, by "cruel methods," (keep in mind Fade is an apologist of National Socialism) as well as capitalising upon the banning of pagan culturalisation through its scientific and liberal forms, taking careful precautions to deny the Christian form those secular arts took in the later Middle Ages into the Renaissance, recovered by Christians and developed accordingly in their Universities and private schools

What we end up with is a hodgepodge of slander and exaggeration, all in the vain attempt of neopagans to give life to beyond dead corpses. They shall fail once again, just as they failed against the Catholics in the Middle Ages.

[Micaelis]

Christianity became the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire. A radically different set of values triumphed and displaced the old values; values which discouraged scientific progress and interest in philosophy.

...that encouraged and proliferated paganistic thought and culture, which had embodied those secular arts in their antique forms. Again, nothing is startling about this fact. Christianity picked up those secular arts and developed them accordingly. The whole point of scholasticism was to show that those arts were indeed secular and could be further developed in Christendom by Catholic scholars, that they were not hostile to Christian dogma. This remains true.

[Fade the Butcher]

...that encouraged and proliferated paganistic thought and culture, which had embodied those secular arts in their antique forms. Again, nothing is startling about this fact. Christianity picked up those secular arts and developed them accordingly. The whole point of scholasticism was to show that those arts were indeed secular and could be further developed in Christendom by Catholic scholars, that they were not hostile to Christian dogma. This remains true.

You are jumping way ahead of yourself here. Scholasticism doesn't appear until the twelfth century. The universities too. There is a gap of about six hundred years between the fall of the Western Empire and Scholasticism. To put that in perspective, it is the same amount of time which separates us from the Hundred Years War.

[Fade the Butcher]

1. Christianity destroyed paganism thereby displacing today's pseudo-pagans and satan worshippers, such as wintermute

Christianity became the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire and much of Western Europe until freedom of religion was gradually restored in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

2. This displacement is transformed into an attempted guilt-tripping of Christians through the theme "The Crimes of Christianity" and all of its major and minor manifestations

The purpose of this thread is to explain the transition from Antiquity to the Dark Ages. There was no clear break between the two. Rather, the process begins with the triumph of Christianity in the fourth century and is completed around the beginning of the eighth century.

3. This new "crime" of theirs is espoused through highlighting events such as the destruction of pagan temples and the physical destruction of pagan bodies, both textual and biological, by "cruel methods," (keep in mind Fade is an apologist of National Socialism) as well as capitalising upon the banning of pagan culturalisation through its scientific and liberal forms, taking careful precautions to deny the Christian form those secular arts took in the later Middle Ages into the Renaissance, recovered by Christians and developed accordingly in their Universities and private schools

The focus of this thread is not the High Middle Ages or the Renaissance. The destruction of the pagan temples, sculpture, and art, destruction and burning of libraries, spread of monasteries, murder of scientists and philosophers, and the end of traditions that stretch back a thousand years like the Eleusian Mysteries and Olympic Games throw light upon the transition from the old order to the new one.

What we end up with is a hodgepodge of slander and exaggeration, all in the vain attempt of neopagans to give life to beyond dead corpses. They shall fail once again, just as they failed against the Catholics in the Middle Ages.

The misery Christianity has inflicted upon the world begins with the destruction of classical civilization and the beginning of the Dark Ages. It does not end there.

[Micaelis]

The misery Christianity has inflicted upon the world begins with the destruction of classical civilization and the beginning of the Dark Ages. It does not end there.

What qualifies as misery, Fade?

Peace be with you. For now, I must rest.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I was recently reading Runciman´s fall of Constantinople and he argues that the fall of this city caused a move of Byzantine scholars to Italy which helped a great deal with the return to a more Classical approach. I also notice the creation of a Byzantine University in the early 5th century.

[Fade the Butcher]

What qualifies as misery, Fade?

The collapse of living standards, ignorance, cultural pessimism, and so forth. It must have been a sad period to live through.

Peace be with you. For now, I must rest.

Goodnight, friend. :)

[Fade the Butcher]

I was recently reading Runciman´s fall of Constantinople and he argues that the fall of this city caused a move of Byzantine scholars to Italy which helped a great deal with the return to a more Classical approach. I also notice the creation of a Byzantine University in the early 5th century.

That's perhaps the one nice thing I can say about Byzantium. They did preserve a lot of material in the libraries of Constantinople. Embracing the classical tradition and working to extend it, as happened in the West and Islamic world, is another matter altogether. The Byzantines were almost exclusively interested in theology and neglected that inheritance for centuries.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

It is interesting to note from where the so called "Islamic culture" came from if not from looted Byzantine towns from Palestine to Tunis to Anatolia. Many of the classics that survived to be re-discovered were preserved throughout these dark centuries within Byzantine libraries. Libraries that got looted in good measure by the Venetians in 1204 along with much artwork.

[Fade the Butcher]

It is interesting to note from where the so called "Islamic culture" came from if not from looted Byzantine towns from Palestine to Tunis to Anatolia. Many of the classics that survived to be re-discovered were preserved throughout these dark centuries within Byzantine libraries. Libraries that got looted in good measure by the Venetians in 1204 along with much artwork.

No one denies that classical material was preserved by the Byzantines in their libraries, or that the Muslims acquired classical texts from the Byzantines, not only in their conquests, but also in various treaties between the emperors and caliphs. The difference is the Muslims and Western Europeans embraced the classical tradition and worked to extend it whereas the Byzantines did not, in spite of their privileged access to classical science and their natural command of the Greek language. Who are the Byzantine analogues to Geber (chemistry), al-Hazen (optics), Avempace (physics), Avicenna and al-Razi (medicine), al-Kindi and Averroes (philosophy), al-Khwarizmi and Omar Khayyam (mathematics), or al-Tusi, al-Urdi, or al-Shirazi (astronomy)? After the 530s, Byzantine output in science and philosophy was over.

[Jake Featherston]

The purpose of this thread is to explain the transition from Antiquity to the Dark Ages. There was no clear break between the two. Rather, the process begins with the triumph of Christianity in the fourth century and is completed around the beginning of the eighth century.

One might suggest the process of transition began around 235 AD, with the so-called Crisis of the Third Century, which can be seen as indicative of a weakening of the Greco-Roman Pagan order, without which the Empire would not have been vulnerable to Christianization in the fourth century, and a power-hungry demagogue like Constantine might have seen little value in employing it as his tool for hegemony. Anyway, just a thought.

[Fade the Butcher]

One might suggest the process of transition began around 235 AD, with the so-called Crisis of the Third Century, which can be seen as indicative of a weakening of the Greco-Roman Pagan order, without which the Empire would not have been vulnerable to Christianization in the fourth century, and a power-hungry demagogue like Constantine might have seen little value in employing it as his tool for hegemony. Anyway, just a thought.

The crisis of the third century was caused by the rise of the Sasanian dynasty in Persia and was under control by the time of Diocletian. The Persians later had barbarian problems of their own which prevented them from taking advantage of the crisis brought about by the Huns, Vandals, and Goths.

[Basil Fawlty]

No one denies that classical material was preserved by the Byzantines in their libraries, or that the Muslims acquired classical texts from the Byzantines, not only in their conquests, but also in various treates between the emperors and caliphs. The difference is the Muslims and Western Europeans embraced the classical tradition and worked to extend it whereas the Byzantines did not, in spite of their privileged access to classical science and their natural command of the Greek language.That's not quite true. For them it was part of their living tradition. Homeric scholarship continued unbroken right through to the end.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

After the 530s, Byzantine output in science and philosophy was over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

Yes, this 6th Century Cathedral that still stands today was build through sheer luck of stacking stones. :rolleyes:

The final decadence and ultimate fall of Byzantium did produce a bee line of inteligencia fleeing to Italy with quite some interesting books under their arms. To claim that Byzantium was all but a storekeeper for other to pick up grand ideas is pretty shortsighted.

[Basil Fawlty]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

Yes, this 6th Century Cathedral that still stands today was build through sheer luck of stacking stones. :rolleyes:

The final decadence and ultimate fall of Byzantium did produce a bee line of inteligencia fleeing to Italy with quite some interesting books under their arms. To claim that Byzantium was all but a storekeeper for other to pick up grand ideas is pretty shortsighted.Its also false to say that philosophy ended in the 530's, although Justinian closed the Academy.
There was a living Byzantine philosophical tradition and it plays a vital role in kick-starting the Renaissance.

In the chapter on the eleventh and twelfth centuries we meet Michael Psellos (1018-1096) who wrote about the philosophy of Plato and became “the promoter of philosophical movement in Byzantium, an initiative that continued from the 11th through the 15th century and was disseminated by Plethon and Bessarion to the Italy of the Renaissance and then to the rest of Western Europe.” Tatakis ends this chapter by saying, “it is not enough to say that in the 11th and 12th centuries speculative thought in the Latin West runs on the same track as it did in Byzantium. We must acknowledge that in all of the essential points of this intellectual movement, Byzantium led the way.”

We will end this review with the chapter on the last three centuries with some comments about George Gemistos Plethon (c.1360-1450) who came to live in Italy. Plethon was very advanced and definitely put philosophy in the first place ahead of religion. In “his most important work, The Laws,... [he says] philosophical thinking... reveals the naked truth to the spirit that has been liberated from dogmatism and compels the person, every person, to accept it ‘with one accord and with the same spirit.’ The position of the enlightenment philosophers would not be very different.” http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/1167/1/51/
Just google 'Byzantine Philosophy', I got 862 hits. Its a still under-researched area. Under-researched is not the same thing as 'did not exist.'

[Fade the Butcher]

Yes, this 6th Century Cathedral that still stands today was build through sheer luck of stacking stones.

Justinian managed to (re)build a church . . . while bankrupting the Eastern Empire, closing the schools of philosophy and rhetoric in Athens, launching divisive civil wars against his own subjects, and destroying much of Italy and Africa in his ridiculous wars. But . . . at least he built a magnificent, splendid church (with all that money that could have been spent better elsewhere)! I would say that reflects his interests quite nicely. When the Arabs conquered Syria, Egypt, and North Africa in the seventh century, they were welcomed with open arms by much of the population who were sick and tired of the fanatics in Constantinople. And Spain where the Jews had been ruthlessly persecuted after the conversion of the Visigoths to Catholicism. Even many Italians came to despise Justinian. "The Greeks" became term of derision in Italy during the Gothic war.

The final decadence and ultimate fall of Byzantium did produce a bee line of inteligencia fleeing to Italy with quite some interesting books under their arms. To claim that Byzantium was all but a storekeeper for other to pick up grand ideas is pretty shortsighted.

I'm always willing to reconsider my opinion. Just give me some of the names of the great Byzantine lights in geology, astronomy, chemistry, mathematics, physics after the 530s.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I was not showing the Hagia Sofia as an example of good resource management but rather a masterwork of applied science of that time. You can try to change the subject on this but the engineering, the art used, dwarfs anything done till almost 1000 years later.

You do not get this done with dark age mentality. The link itself to Wikipedia gives you quite some insight to how it was build and how inovative the whole construction was.

Runciman mentiones a few names in regards to the time around the fall of the great city. I will have to check it out when I get home.

[Fade the Butcher]

Its also false to say that philosophy ended in the 530's, although Justinian closed the Academy.

That depends upon how you define philosophy. Is exegesis of Orthodox Christianity philosophy or theology?

There was a living Byzantine philosophical tradition and it plays a vital role in kick-starting the Renaissance.

That's a stretch. The major contribution of Byzantium to the Renaissance was the recovery of classical texts from its libraries, not original Byzantine scholarship. Bessarion converted to Catholicism and settled permanently in the West to escape the fanatics back in Constantinople. There was a brief "renaissance" in Byzantine philosophy, a thousand years later, when the Empire was on its deathbed in the fifteenth century. That's actually the best evidence we have that attacks from abroad was not the cause of Byzantine intellectual stagnation.

Just google 'Byzantine Philosophy', I got 862 hits. Its a still under-researched area. Under-researched is not the same thing as 'did not exist.'

Because there is little to nothing of value.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Bessarion was shuned because he was in favor of the union of both churches under Latin predominance much in line with the wishes of his Emperor who was desperate to find western aid to the surrounded city. It has nothing to do with fanatism.
George of Trebizond is another such example. The opposite but equaly learned view by the likes of Georgios Scholarios.

[Fade the Butcher]

I was not showing the Hagia Sofia as an example of good resource management but rather a masterwork of applied science of that time. You can try to change the subject on this but the engineering, the art used, dwarfs anything done till almost 1000 years later.

It is a big church. Aside from its size, what was novel about its construction? The Hagia Sophia is actually yet another reflection of the obsession of the degenerate Byzantines with theology at the expense of more important matters. The other great accomplishment attributed to Justinian was his famous law code which bears his name; certainly one of the most impressive monuments to totalitarianism in world history.

You do not get this done with dark age mentality. The link itself to Wikipedia gives you quite some insight to how it was build and how inovative the whole construction was.

The period is known as the Dark Ages because it is, well, barren of progress across virtually every field of science, and a tremendous decline from the accomplishments of previous eras (Classical, Hellenistic, and Roman). A polite way of putting this is to say that the minds of Europeans had been turned towards theology.

Runciman mentiones a few names in regards to the time around the fall of the great city. I will have to check it out when I get home.

Basil has already mentioned the usual ones cited above.

[Fade the Butcher]

Bessarion was shuned because he was in favor of the union of both churches under Latin predominance much in line with the wishes of his Emperor who was desperate to find western aid to the surrounded city. It has nothing to do with fanatism.
George of Trebizond is another such example. The opposite but equaly learned view by the likes of Georgios Scholarios.

What are any of these men notable for?

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Hagia Sofia = Big church

Ok...I give up...

Read up a bit and tell me in what ways it was "special".

[Petr]

The effect of the barbarian invasions has been exaggerated (outside Britain and Northeastern Gaul). The barbarians didn't change much. They were few in number and generally established themselves in relatively unpopulated areas. Most of them admired Roman civilization and sought to preserve it. In Burgundy, Africa, Aquitaine, Spain, and Italy they maintained the existing status quo. In order to govern their new kingdoms, they turned naturally enough to - surprise, surprise - the indigenous Roman bureaucracy and the bishops. There was only one group in the West that had an ideological axe to grind against classical civilization: the monks who, inspired by Christianity, despised "profane culture."
Let it just be quickly noted that Fade's plan is transparently to a) whitewash his beloved Germanic barbarians from responsibility for cultural collapse and then exalt them for magically creating their own civilization b) shift all the blame on Christians.

He twists all evidence according to this preconceived scheme.


Petr

[Boleslaw]

You are jumping way ahead of yourself here. Scholasticism doesn't appear until the twelfth century. The universities too. There is a gap of about six hundred years between the fall of the Western Empire and Scholasticism. To put that in perspective, it is the same amount of time which separates us from the Hundred Years War.

Fade, how long did it take for Greek culture to reach its height after the collaspe of the Myceanian civilization in 1200 B.C.?

[Petr]

Fade, how long did it take for Greek culture to reach its height after the collaspe of the Myceanian civilization in 1200 B.C.?
Ancient Indus culture was also destroyed by invading Aryan nomads around 1500 BC, and did not really recover until around 500 BC (when it began to borrow things like Aramaic alphabet from the northwest via Persians).

The Harappan civilization was bigger in extent than either Egypt's or Sumeria's. It was a literate civilization in communication with Sumeria. After the Aryan invasion, literacy was wiped out, and did not reappear for another 1,000 years or so, when a new script was borrowed from outside.
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/rig-veda.html


In China, internal troubles caused the collapse of Han dynasty - a disordered Chinese "dark age" followed from about 200 AD to 600 AD, when new powerful Tang dynasty came to power.


Petr

[Petr]

But . . . at least he built a magnificent, splendid church (with all that money that could have been spent better elsewhere).
Besides noting your utterly philistine materialism, let's try to have some consistency here.

a) Do you think Greco-Roman rulers should have invested their money on the upkeep of philosophical schools instead of building huge classical temples?

b) Do you think that Western Europeans could have spent the money they invested on building artistic wonders like Gothic cathedrals on some better materialistic purposes? ´

The other great accomplishment attributed to Justinian was his famous law code which bears his name; certainly one of the most impressive monuments to totalitarianism in world history.
Is there no end to Fade's pretentious, two-faced hypocrisy? He has himself formerly praised this work.

The practice of law is another obvious case. The sharia prevented the emergence of anything resembling modern jurisprudence in the Islamic world. Islam never produced any legal system as complex as the Justinian Code or the English common law compiled under Edward I.

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2911&highlight=justinian

And since when has Fade opposed totalitarianism anyways? :p


Petr

[Boleslaw]

b) Do you think that Western Europeans could have spent the money they invested on building artistic wonders like Gothic cathedrals on some better materialistic purposes?

Petr, dont you know that the building of those Gothic cathedrals greatly hindered the advancement of European culture? :p

"The building of churches – the first great buildings of the Middle Ages – gave a stimulus to technical progress, not only in building techniques, but also in the tools used, in methods of transportation, and in the auxiliary skills such as glasswork.”
--Jacques Le Goff Medieval Civilization 400-1500 pg. 198

The horrors of it it all!!!!!


BTW Petr, you should have this as your sig ;)

"Christianity has acquired an undeserved reputation of being intolerant and hostile to science."
-- Daedalus (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=26567&postcount=3), 01-07-2006

[Petr]

Christianity became the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire and much of Western Europe until freedom of religion was gradually restored in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.
Fade's newfound posturing as Captain Enlightenment is starting only to provoke gross burps of laughter within me. Who does he think he's fooling?


The fact is, there is no logical connection between religious tolerance and progress in sciences and culture in general. We could also theoretically destroy all the art in the world and still make scientific progress!

King Ferdinand of Spain and Ludvig XIV of France were absolutists and religious persecutors of Justinianic scale, but Fade has praised them both:


I don't give a damn about the Indians that died in the New World or the Moors and Jews who were slaughtered by the Inquisition. Do you?
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=87&highlight=moors


:: In fact, the reason for the end of the Bourbon Dynasty in France was because the French population had awakened to the gross inadequacies of Absolutism, and the Divine Right of Kings.

You seem to become more and more ignorant of your subject matter as we move further through this thread. It can fairly be said that the arts and sciences had never flourished more in France than they had under Louis XIV. Has George W. Bush ever founded an institution of higher learning like the Académie des sciences or patronized artists the likes of Molière, Lully, and Racine?

:: The Church and ruling monarchs had made a quid pro quo, whereby the state accepted Christianity as the ruling religion, and kings were granted "Divine Right", meaning they were allowed to rule because "god himself had selected them."

Ergo, French universities were crushed by Colbert, Descartes executed, the arts were stiffled by Richelieu, science was abolished by Mazarin who also shut down the public schools at the behest of the Sun King who made a quid pro quo with the Pope. I luerned this in the Americun public skewl system while reading about great black philosophers like Martin Luther King and great black scientists who invented the SuperSoaker. C'mon. You're killing me!

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=27588&postcount=25


Petr

[Aule]

Ok...I give up...

Read up a bit and tell me in what ways it was "special".

I think Fade is referring to pure as opposed to applied science here (read: engineering). Scientific progress ground to a near halt during the Imperial era, yet the Romans managed to construct massive aqueducts, roads, bathouses, and stadiums (the Colosseum, of course, being the most notable example) through the application of Greek knowledge. While there may have been several notable Roman luminaries in the arts and sciences (Seneca, Cicero, Galen, Heron etc.) they still pale in comparison to the Greeks.

Byzantium under the veil of orthodox christendom does not seem to differ much from it's predecessor in this respect. There are few, if any, Byzantines who belong to the ranks of Aristotle or Darwin in terms of their overall impact on human knowledge.

[Micaelis]

Here's an interesting graphic to add to the thread:

http://alcor.concordia.ca/~shannon/201Lec02images_files/image004.jpg

[Aule]

If you look at it from a Spenglerian perspective the religious fanaticism of the early Christians could be seen as a natural result of the Magian culture's attempts to free itself from the Classical pseudomorphosis which had enveloped the near east since Actium.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Christianity became the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire.

Long after the decline of the Empire had started. The lack of a proper Roman method for succession probably had more to do with the decline of the Empire than Christianity.

[Kodos]

No one denies that classical material was preserved by the Byzantines in their libraries, or that the Muslims acquired classical texts from the Byzantines, not only in their conquests, but also in various treaties between the emperors and caliphs. The difference is the Muslims and Western Europeans embraced the classical tradition and worked to extend it whereas the Byzantines did not, in spite of their privileged access to classical science and their natural command of the Greek language. Who are the Byzantine analogues to Geber (chemistry), al-Hazen (optics), Avempace (physics), Avicenna and al-Razi (medicine), al-Kindi and Averroes (philosophy), al-Khwarizmi and Omar Khayyam (mathematics), or al-Tusi, al-Urdi, or al-Shirazi (astronomy)? After the 530s, Byzantine output in science and philosophy was over.

Is the Byzantine empire's near constant state of total war partially to blame for this?

[Sulla the Dictator]

It is a big church. Aside from its size, what was novel about its construction? The Hagia Sophia is actually yet another reflection of the obsession of the degenerate Byzantines with theology at the expense of more important matters.


Some of the greatest wonders of the Ancient world were religious structures as well. :p

I don't see you breaking out the abacus to judge the Parthenon, or the Roman Pantheon, or the Pyramids, or the temple of Artemis, or the statue of Zeus, or the Colossus of Helios.

[Fade the Butcher]

Here's an interesting graphic to add to the thread:

http://alcor.concordia.ca/~shannon/201Lec02images_files/image004.jpg

Thanks. This graphic does shed light on the identity of the real conquerers of the Roman Empire.

[Fade the Butcher]

Some of the greatest wonders of the Ancient world were religious structures as well. I don't see you breaking out the abacus to judge the Parthenon, or the Roman Pantheon, or the Pyramids, or the temple of Artemis, or the statue of Zeus, or the Colossus of Helios.

I don't have any objection to religious art per se. The point I was making is that the wealth of the Empire was being lavished on an idle class of worthless clerics and fabulous new churches when its very existence was at stake. The Church was exempt from taxation and was showered with wealth by the state and private donors. An enormous transfer of economic resources occurred from the fourth to the eighth centuries. The Church became the richest and most powerful and influential institution in society while the Empire itself simultaneously went bankrupt from the loss of revenues of captured and despoiled provinces.

As the wealth of Rome filled the coffers of the Church, the prospects for employment changed. As Libanius pointed out, why become a grammarian, rhetor, or philosopher - and risk being labeled a heretic and persecuted by the state - when a far more lucrative (and safe) career could be found in the Church? After the sixth century, the Church redirected its interest towards the conversion of the illiterate countryside, and polished Latin became an obstacle in this process. "Rusticus" was cultivated as an ideal. As the needs of the rich powerful changed, the old schools were dismantled and were replaced by ecclesiastical schools (which rejected the "profane curriculum") that catered only to clerics and monks.

If that were not bad enough, murderous theological controversies and religious persecutions had undermined the very foundation of the Empire. Thus, the Donatist heretics in North Africa that Augustine had warred against welcomed the Vandals into North Africa, the Jews and Arians welcomed the Arabs into Spain, the Nestorians and Monophysites welcomed the Arabs into Syria and Egypt. Everywhere the Muslims went they were assisted by traitors who preferred to live under their rule rather than Constantinople. With the Church in control in so much of the Empire's landed wealth, ever increasing, and exempt from taxation, the burden of taxation fell harder and harder upon freeholders who were crushed. Many of them came to prefer barbarian rule to Roman rule. Case in point, Burgundy.

[Fade the Butcher]

Is the Byzantine empire's near constant state of total war partially to blame for this?

No. Byzantine culture was never more productive than it was in its final years which were filled with the most wars.

[Kodos]

No. Byzantine culture was never more productive than it was in its final years which were filled with the most wars.

Interesting... do you have any theory as to why?

Was it like the closing years of the 3rd Reich... a doomed regime pinning all its hope on "secret weapons"?

[Fade the Butcher]

Long after the decline of the Empire had started. The lack of a proper Roman method for succession probably had more to do with the decline of the Empire than Christianity.

The crisis of the third century was caused by the rise of the Sassanians in Persia which was under control by the time of Diocletian. The Sassanians remained a nuisance but were too distracted by their own barbarian problems to do much damage in the decisive years of the fourth and fifth centuries. Theodosius, Gratian, Honorius, Arcadius, Theodosius II, and Valentinian III were more interested in waging war against their own subjects over trivial theological differences than fighting the barbarians. The richest province of the Western Empire was North Africa which is a good example of this. It was torn apart by factional disputes between the Donatists, Catholics, Pelagians, and Manicheans. The Vandals were Arians who persecuted Catholics on religious grounds. After the Byzantine reconquest, North Africa remained a center of all sorts of heresies which invited further persecutions.

[Fade the Butcher]

Interesting... do you have any theory as to why? Was it like the closing years of the 3rd Reich... a doomed regime pinning all its hope on "secret weapons"?

I suspect it was because the Byzantine state was too distracted for once by other considerations to keep the lid on secular learning.

[Fade the Butcher]

Petr, dont you know that the building of those Gothic cathedrals greatly hindered the advancement of European culture?

Fancy buildings are certainly nice, but we must remember they were built on the backs of the crushed poor.

[Fade the Butcher]

I think Fade is referring to pure as opposed to applied science here (read: engineering).

Yes. Science is a body of knowledge about the natural world. It is not technology or practical engineering skills.

[Fade the Butcher]

Besides noting your utterly philistine materialism, let's try to have some consistency here.

I was about to ask you the same thing. Weren't you telling us just the other day about how you were an iconoclast?

a) Do you think Greco-Roman rulers should have invested their money on the upkeep of philosophical schools instead of building huge classical temples?

The amount of money spent on the public cults and schools was modest compared to all the wealth that was showered upon the Christian Church and its thousands upon thousands of idle clerics.

b) Do you think that Western Europeans could have spent the money they invested on building artistic wonders like Gothic cathedrals on some better materialistic purposes?

I don't recall France or England being on the verge of destruction when the Gothic cathedrals were built.

Is there no end to Fade's pretentious, two-faced hypocrisy? He has himself formerly praised this work.

I didn't say that the Justinian Code was not complex or that it was not a great work of jurisprudence. I was referring to its content. It was used to justify extending absolute power to the emperor which Justinian used to crush religious dissidents.

[Fade the Butcher]

Let it just be quickly noted that Fade's plan is transparently to a) whitewash his beloved Germanic barbarians from responsibility for cultural collapse and then exalt them for magically creating their own civilization b) shift all the blame on Christians.

The Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Burgundians, Suevi, and Vandals were all Christians. The leadership of the Lombards was Christian during their conquest of Italy. The Franks converted to Catholicism shortly after their conquest of Gaul.

http://alcor.concordia.ca/~shannon/201Lec02images_files/image004.jpg

^^ Mike's graph illustrates this quite nicely. England was lost to paganism, but the range of Christianity expanded enormously during this period.

He twists all evidence according to this preconceived scheme.

The Vandals did less damage to North Africa than the Romans who destroyed Carthage after the Third Punic War. The massacares of the Romans in Spain and Gaul were larger than anything that happened during the fifth century. The difference between the Roman conquest of the Mediterranean and the barbarian conquest of the Roman Empire is that the barbarians were either 1.) Christians themselves or 2.) assimilated into a Christian culture that denounced secular knowledge as "profane."

[Petr]

No. Byzantine culture was never more productive than it was in its final years which were filled with the most wars.
Fade bases this whole ridiculous notion on one or two vague sentences from popular-level book by Edward Grant, who is far from infallible.

(And even Grant admits how exceptionally Byzantium was plagued by wars, but then refuses to make the proper conclusions. He also admits that it was the religious devotion of Byzantines that gave them the power and resilience needed the prevent the total collapse - and thus the overrunning of whole Europe by Islam.)

The development of Byzantine thought during its last two centuries is very easily explained by new influences brought from Scholastic West along with Latin conquests - Byzantines came to somewhat closer contact with Western progress and reacted to it.

I suspect it was because the Byzantine state was too distracted for once by other considerations to keep the lid on secular learning.
Fade is crudely projecting modern secularism to pre-modern times. Typically anachronistic thinking.


Petr

[Petr]

Fancy buildings are certainly nice, but we must remember they were built on the backs of the crushed poor.
What a phony-moralizing hypocrite. Tartuffe redivivus!


Petr

[Jake Featherston]

Here's an interesting graphic to add to the thread:

Its an interesting map, but I wonder how accurate it is. I've read that St. Patrick's fourth century conversion of the Irish was almost entirely mythical (he did found an Irish monastery, however), and that Christianity didn't become the dominant religion of Ireland until about the ninth century ie., that it was the last Euro-Pagan hold-out against Christianity outside of Scandinavia and the Baltic coast.