PDA

View Full Version : East Asia allies doubt U.S. could win war with China


Felix the Cat
12-04-2005, 09:52 AM
East Asia allies doubt U.S. could win war with China (http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/slasheastasia_1.htm)

The overwhelming assessment by Asian officials, diplomats and analysts is that the U.S. military simply cannot defeat China. It has been an assessment relayed to U.S. government officials over the past few months by countries such as Australia, Japan and South Korea. This comes as President Bush wraps up a visit to Asia, in which he sought to strengthen U.S. ties with key allies in the region.

Most Asian officials have expressed their views privately. Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara has gone public, warning that the United States would lose any war with China.

"In any case, if tension between the United States and China heightens, if each side pulls the trigger, though it may not be stretched to nuclear weapons, and the wider hostilities expand, I believe America cannot win as it has a civic society that must adhere to the value of respecting lives," Mr. Ishihara said in an address to the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Mr. Ishihara said U.S. ground forces, with the exception of the Marines, are "extremely incompetent" and would be unable to stem a Chinese conventional attack. Indeed, he asserted that China would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against Asian and American cities—even at the risk of a massive U.S. retaliation.

The governor said the U.S. military could not counter a wave of millions of Chinese soldiers prepared to die in any onslaught against U.S. forces. After 2,000 casualties, he said, the U.S. military would be forced to withdraw.

"Therefore, we need to consider other means to counter China," he said. "The step we should be taking against China, I believe, is economic containment."

Officials acknowledge that Mr. Ishihara's views reflect the widespread skepticism of U.S. military capabilities in such countries as Australia, India, Japan, Singapore and South Korea. They said the U.S.-led war in Iraq has pointed to the American weakness in low-tech warfare.

"When we can't even control parts of Anbar, they get the message loud and clear," an official said, referring to the flashpoint province in western Iraq.

As a result, Asian allies of the United States are quietly preparing to bolster their militaries independent of Washington. So far, the Bush administration has been strongly opposed to an indigenous Japanese defense capability, fearing it would lead to the expulsion of the U.S. military presence from that country.

On Nov. 16, Mr. Bush met with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi. The two leaders discussed the realignment of the U.S. military presence in Japan and Tokyo's troop deployment in Iraq.

During his visit to Washington in early November, Mr. Ishihara met senior U.S. defense officials. They included talks with U.S. Defense Deputy Undersecretary for Asian and Pacific Affairs Richard Lawless to discuss the realignment of the U.S. military presence in Japan.

For his part, Mr. Ishihara does not see China as evolving into a stable democracy with free elections.

"I believe such predictions are totally wrong," Mr. Ishihara said.

Earl_Cerberus
12-04-2005, 10:22 AM
WTH? Did they forget about the Ohio-class Boomers that are always sitting off the coast of China and North Korea just waiting to make yellow glass parking lots??

Lenny
12-04-2005, 12:07 PM
So the US, although it has tremendous military-industrial power/potential and would be an almost unstoppable war machine if it fully mobilized for war, would sue for peace if attacked because it does not have the stomach to fight a real war?

Interesting, people were saying the exact same thing 65 years ago! It was as wrong then as it is now

The Japanese used this same wrong logic in December 1941, they figured that the US was soft and would not have the will to fight them for years all the way to Japan. That was a big mis-judgement on their part, the US did fight them all the way to Japan in a costly four-year-long war, with US troops routinely engaging in incredibly savage and bitter battles against Japanese forces

The same would happen if China launched an attack on the US

I am reminded of what Japanese admiral Yamamoto said in December 1941 after Pearl Harbor and the US declaration of war: "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve". As true when it was spoken as it would be today if the same happened (Asian power attacking US)

Jimbo Gomez
12-04-2005, 12:29 PM
Lenny: of course in the 1940s, your country had the balls to detain all japs on American soil, while today it bends over and takes it up the ass every time CAIR yelps (or AIPAC, or any other semi terrorist group)...

Lenny
12-04-2005, 02:10 PM
Ok I'll just come out and say what everyone's thinking:

I question Anima Eterna's loyalty to this country in the event of war with China :mad:

Jimbo Gomez
12-04-2005, 02:13 PM
Whatever makes you say that? I was not thinking this.

Petr
12-04-2005, 04:29 PM
Interesting, people were saying the exact same thing 65 years ago! It was as wrong then as it is now
The Chinese have much greater resources than the Japanese. Assuming that nuclear weapons will not be used, a more apt comparison would be Germany versus USSR in WW II. Germans had a higher quality war machine, but Soviets had greater resources and were fighting their "home turf."

The same would happen if China launched an attack on the US
But China is not going to "attack the US," not the US mainland that is. They might overrun either Taiwan or South Korea, and the question is, will Americans have guts to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of men for those remote outposts against those millions that the Chinese are prepared to sacrifice on their behalf?


Petr

Felix the Cat
12-04-2005, 09:05 PM
What is the ethnic makeup of the big West Coast cities?

If central LA is nuked, who would be hit hardest?

What is the likelyhood of minority-dominated cities becoming ungovernable in the run-up to a war with China?

Kodos
12-05-2005, 04:06 AM
Would we win...

With nukes yes( to the extent that China would be a worse and more lifeless post apocalyptic landscape after such an exchange then the US)

Without nukes

1. Yes in a sea war or war fought far outside China's borders

2. No in a land war within China or close to China's frontiers, we'd be overwhelmed.

Kodos
12-05-2005, 04:06 AM
But China is not going to "attack the US," not the US mainland that is. They might overrun either Taiwan or South Korea, and the question is, will Americans have guts to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of men for those remote outposts against those millions that the Chinese are prepared to sacrifice on their behalf?

Petr

No.

OVERWATCH
12-05-2005, 04:11 AM
Would we win...

With nukes yes( to the extent that China would be a worse and more lifeless post apocalyptic landscape after such an exchange then the US)

Without nukes

1. Yes in a sea war or war fought far outside China's borders

2. No in a land war within China or close to China's frontiers, we'd be overwhelmed.

I agree, but I don't forsee nukes being used.

Although Ishihara is correct about the nature of American society being unable to deal with loss of life on a grand scale, he is dead wrong about the competence of US ground forces. The US has far more combat veterans and far better junior officers than China.

Kodos
12-05-2005, 04:42 AM
I agree, but I don't forsee nukes being used.
The US has far more combat veterans and far better junior officers than China.

But it won't matter when they are outnumbered 200:1 against troops that in contrast to the Iraqis( im not talking about the insurgency thats our fault for not willing to take the nessecary measures to ensure quiet behind the lines) are at least somewhat equipped.

If they want to fight far outside China their numbers will fall as the logistics are difficult...

Felix the Cat
12-05-2005, 04:46 AM
Chinese! invade! Okinawa! (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/29/yahoo_news_alert/)

Japanese police yesterday arrested a former computer programmer who allegedly knocked up a fake Yahoo! Japan news site, then posted an article on it entitled "Chinese Military Invades Okinawa" and accredited to the Kyodo News Agency. According to an apparently genuine Yahoo! report, the site attracted 66,000 hits until it was taken out of commission on 19 October.

Takahiro Yamamoto, 30, was cuffed on suspicion of "violating patent laws" following complaints to police by both Yahoo and Kyodo. The cops confiscated his computer and are analysing data therein. ®

Jimbo Gomez
12-05-2005, 10:12 AM
Would we win...

With nukes yes( to the extent that China would be a worse and more lifeless post apocalyptic landscape after such an exchange then the US)

Without nukes

1. Yes in a sea war or war fought far outside China's borders

2. No in a land war within China or close to China's frontiers, we'd be overwhelmed.

A nuke each on each of your big woginfested cities and they'd have your country facing riots like in n'awleans, only bigger, and in every one of those cities. You can always count on negroes to start looting. :D