How many died?

[tempus fugit]

I thought it would be interesting to see what peoples' estimates are of how many Jews died in the Holocaust.

Since I'm totally ignorant of the subject, yet do believe that the organized Jewry has a stake in maximizing the number, I would say that my upper limit is the 5.2 million that is currently considered most accurate.

[Trojan]

The 5.2 million to 5.3 million is a close call, but I voted on the high side of the number.

[Kodos]

4 to 5 million. More likely closer to 4.

[Burrhus]

None if the word holocaust refers to an organized attempt by the 3rd Reich government to kill all of the jews in Europe resulting in the deaths of 5-6 million of them.

300,000-500,000 if the word holocaust refers to the suffering and deaths of jews during WWII. Of course approximately 49,500,000 people of other ethnic groups and nations also suffered and died in WWII. Why should the suffering and deaths of the jews which constitute 1% of the total suffering and deaths of that war be designated with a special word to single it out as some uniquely evil occurrence?

People die during wars. Jews died. Germans, Americans, Poles, Frenchmen, Russians and numerous other people died.

Clarity of terms precedes debate.

[tempus fugit]

None if the word holocaust refers to an organized attempt by the 3rd Reich government to kill all of the jews in Europe resulting in the deaths of 5-6 million of them.

300,000-500,000 if the word holocaust refers to the suffering and deaths of jews during WWII. Of course approximately 49,500,000 people of other ethnic groups and nations also suffered and died in WWII. Why should the suffering and deaths of the jews which constitute 1% of the total suffering and deaths of that war be designated with a special word to single it out as some uniquely evil occurrence?

People die during wars. Jews died. Germans, Americans, Poles, Frenchmen, Russians and numerous other people died.

Clarity of terms precedes debate.

So you don't believe in the concentration camps?

[Burrhus]

So you don't believe in the concentration camps?

Puttting a question mark after a negative assertion does not constitute asking a question and is both grammatically and rhetorically inappropriate.

Assuming that the question that you meant to ask was: Do you believe that the German government maintained concentration camps on territory under its control during WWII?, the answer is yes.

Those detained in those camps were people whose presence within the general population was considered to be a threat to national security.

Why do you ask? (Assuming that you accept my re-phrasing of your sentence as a question.) The question strikes me as both trivial and impolite. One would have to be quite ignorant to believe that those concentration camps did not exist. Do you think that I might be that ignorant? If not, why ask such a question?

[Sulla the Dictator]

When you add those who died from starvation, disease, and the Einsatzgruppen the number lies between 5.3 million and 6 million.

[Globus]

None if the word holocaust refers to an organized attempt by the 3rd Reich government to kill all of the jews in Europe resulting in the deaths of 5-6 million of them.

300,000-500,000 if the word holocaust refers to the suffering and deaths of jews during WWII.

A self-serving set of opinions having absolutley nothing to do with history or with the evidence.

Burrhus might as well expound on quantum mechanics and pretend he knows what he's talking about.

Ask the man to even provide evidence for how he knows his ridiculous number is accurate and he'll do anything but answer.

Apparently Burrhus defines revisionism as any damn thing he wishes to pretend is the truth!

[Globus]

Those detained in those camps were people whose presence within the general population was considered to be a threat to national security.

How many were detained in camps and what were there nationalities?

What exactly was the threat they represented?

Can you point to any evidence that those sent to camps were sent because they posed threats? Nazi documents? Anything?

And if you can't, then you must agree you are not discussing history, but your fictionalized story offered in lieu of the history you wish to deny.

[Ahknaton]

Arad said 5.1 million. This figure has been subsequently disputed, amended, challenged and so on, so it's hard to get a "definitive" answer. It depends on whether you count all Jews who died during WW2 as Holocaust victims I suppose.

[Globus]

Arad said 5.1 million. This figure has been subsequently disputed, amended, challenged and so on, so it's hard to get a "definitive" answer.

Who has disputed it?

[Trojan]

How many were detained in camps and what were there nationalities?

What exactly was the threat they represented?

Can you point to any evidence that those sent to camps were sent because they posed threats? Nazi documents? Anything?

And if you can't, then you must agree you are not discussing history, but your fictionalized story offered in lieu of the history you wish to deny.

The revisionist response to these questions will be ...

{insert cricket sounds}

[Burrhus]

Arad said 5.1 million. This figure has been subsequently disputed, amended, challenged and so on, so it's hard to get a "definitive" answer. It depends on whether you count all Jews who died during WW2 as Holocaust victims I suppose.

What constitutes being a holocaust victim?

[Ahknaton]

Who has disputed it?
Revisionists like Irving obviously, as well as orthodox historians who favour higher figures such as 6 million. The 5.1 million figure is also Raul Hilberg's.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Revisionists like Irving obviously, as well as orthodox historians who favour higher figures such as 6 million. The 5.1 million figure is also Raul Hilberg's.

I don't see the functional difference between five and six million.

[Ahknaton]

I don't see the functional difference between five and six million.
It functionally affects which poll option you vote for on this thread.

[Sulla the Dictator]

It functionally affects which poll option you vote for on this thread.

True. But other than that, I don't see it.

[Trojan]

What constitutes being a holocaust victim?

Does this question seem familiar to anyone?

:deadhorse:

The liars change, but the lie remains the same.

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/revisionism.html

7. The "What's It Mean?" Spiral of Infinity -- Try to keep your opponents off balance by constantly shifting or questioning the definitions of words. For example, if your opponent states that historians generally agree that 1 million Jews were killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz during the Holocaust, you can ask, what do you mean by "historian" or what do you mean by "Jew" or what do you mean by "agree?"

Alternatively, when confronted with the evidence that Himmler called for the "ausrotten" of the Jews, argue that ausrotten doesn't really mean extermination. When proof of that definition is provided by German dictionaries and German speakers on the newsgroup, just ignore it.

[Trojan]

To those that believe the number can be as low as 400,000. Can you break the number down? Home many died in camps? How many from each nations? etc.


Any one?

[shanemac]

Unfortunately the number of jews who died in the hollowco$t was much lower than is commonly believed.

[Trojan]

Unfortunately the number of jews who died in the hollowco$t was much lower than is commonly believed.

Why would it be unfortunate? How many do you believe died? Why and how did you arrive at that number?

[calvin]

There was no “holocaust” Jews died during WWII, so did millions of Germans, millions of Britons and millions of Russians. A huge percentage of the Allied and German casualties died fighting, the fact that most of the Jews died not fighting doesn’t make their deaths any more worthy of a special title than all of the other dead people.

[Globus]

There was no “holocaust” Jews died during WWII, so did millions of Germans, millions of Britons and millions of Russians.

Great Britain did not lose millions during WWII! The millions of Germans and Russians lost was because these were two nations at war. One expects nations who go to war to lose people.

The Holocaust, which obviously occurred, had nothing to do with war. It was pure genocide and is hardly excused because there was also a war.

The attempt to pretend that Nazi genocide is no different than the killing of mostly soldiers between nations at war merely masks the twin agendas of Holocaust denial- Jew hatred and the rehabilitation of National Socialism and the fascination racists have with that ideology.

[Janus]

...from 400,000 to 2.4 million... I chose this option, although I do not know a lot about the subject.It was pure genocide... What definition of "genocide" are you using?

[calvin]

The Jews declared war on Germany in 1933 as reported in the daily express.

The Holocaust, which obviously occurred

Yeah, “obviously” is a good substitute for evidence.

[Globus]

The Jews declared war on Germany in 1933 as reported in the daily express.

LOL! The Jews didn't declare war on anyone, and only nations can declare war.

You confuse the copy of a headline writer from a right wing newspaper with history.

Yeah, “obviously” is a good substitute for evidence.

The evidence has been presented many times. If you wish to look foolish and pretend it doesn't exist, while you on the other hand espouse beliefs for which there is no evidence, that is your problem.

[Rakhmetov]

Jews that reportedly died in Russia and Poland ought to be included in the death toll of these countries rather than being placed in the separate "Holocaust" category. I do not count Jews from these countries because they did not endure anything significantly different than the rest of the population. In Leningrad alone, 1 million Russians starved. Yet no one calls this a Holocaust whereas executed Jews in Odessa are somehow special.

The only Jews that should be counted are those of Axis countries. In total, only 800 thousand Jews died including 500 thousand from Germany(including Czechia and Austria), 200 thousand from Hungary, and 60 thousand from Romania.

[Globus]

Jews which reportedly died in Russia and Poland ought to be included in the death toll of these countries rather than being placed in the separate "Holocaust" category.

No, if they were killed by Nazis as part of the Holocaust, they should be included in the Holocaust death toll. The number of Jews killed as soldiers for these countries was very small

I do not count Jews from these countries because they did not endure anything significantly different than the rest of the population. In Leningrad alone, 1 million Russians starved.

Leningrad was not the norm for Russians. Russians as a whole endured nothing like what Jews endured because no one was attempting to kill all Russians.

The only Jews that should be counted are those of Axis countries.

That's ridiculous! All killed because they were Jews are counted, and should be.

[calvin]

That's ridiculous! All killed because they were Jews are counted, and should be

Yup! Count them, add them up and let the Jews remember them. I’m no more interested in how many Jews died in WWII than I am in how many Chinese died, why should non-jews be required to grant dead Jews special status?

[Globus]

Yup! Count them, add them up and let the Jews remember them. I’m no more interested in how many Jews died in WWII than I am in how many Chinese died, why should non-jews be required to grant dead Jews special status?

Of course you're interested, that's why you're here. You want both for them to have been killed and for you to be able to deny it.

[Burrhus]

Post text deleted by Burrhus to avoid thread digression. Posted as new thread here.
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=298933#post298933

[calvin]

Of course you're interested, that's why you're here. You want both for them to have been killed and for you to be able to deny it

Your Delphic powers indicate that you have balls of crystal; just like your ancestors.

[Globus]

Your Delphic powers indicate that you have balls of crystal; just like your ancestors.

Why is that Jew haters think accusing some of being Jewish is a hurtful thing.

That your comment is belied by your behavior is rather obvious Calvin.

[calvin]

Why is that Jew haters think accusing some of being Jewish is a hurtful thing

Why is it that Jewannabee Gentiles think that a disbelief in doctrinaire liberal historical dogma indicates a hatred of Jews? If I hated Jews I would embrace and celebrate the official “holocaust” doctrine.

[Globus]

Why is it that Jewannabee Gentiles

What are they? Something you just invented because it was the best juvenile reply you cold think of?

think that a disbelief in doctrinaire liberal historical dogma

Of for God's sake stop talking nonsense. There is nothing "liberal" about history or the Holocaust. Your conspiracy theories are more a reflection on you and your inability to deal with the real world, not a description of proven history.

[calvin]

The term “Jewannabe” was coined by Jews to disparage people like Madonna. If you spent some time away from your keyboard and met some Jewish people you might know that. You might also know that lots of Jews don’t have a fixation with the holocaust and are capable of holding objective opinions about Israeli foreign policy, these people are far more likely to call someone like you a Jewannabe than anyone here is.

[Globus]

The term “Jewannabe” was coined by Jews to disparage people like Madonna.

LOL!

If you spent some time away from your keyboard and met some Jewish people you might know that.

If you were actually able to learn instead of just emote based on your hatreds you'd know how stupid that comment was.

[calvin]

If you were actually able to learn instead of just emote based on your hatreds you'd know how stupid that comment was

Right on cue, the usual gibberish Globus posts when getting the last word in has to substitute for winning the debate.

[Globus]

Right on cue, the usual gibberish Globus ....

Come on Calvin, you can do better than this, can't you?

[Trojan]

Jews that reportedly died in Russia and Poland ought to be included in the death toll of these countries rather than being placed in the separate "Holocaust" category. I do not count Jews from these countries because they did not endure anything significantly different than the rest of the population. In Leningrad alone, 1 million Russians starved. Yet no one calls this a Holocaust whereas executed Jews in Odessa are somehow special.

The only Jews that should be counted are those of Axis countries. In total, only 800 thousand Jews died including 500 thousand from Germany(including Czechia and Austria), 200 thousand from Hungary, and 60 thousand from Romania.

So in your world, only 40,000 Jews died from Poland and Russia?

Amazing fantasy you have there.

[Trojan]

Come on Calvin, you can do better than this, can't you?

The magic eight ball says "doubtful" ...