Augustine and Descartes

[joon]

I'm studying these two philosophers right now but I am no longer interested in certain areas and it is very difficult for me to read and analyze when I have no interest.

I was wondering if anyone else has read the two - more specifically, Augustine's Confessions and Descartes' Meditations. What part of human nature causes or leads us to sin (Augustine) and what part of human nature causes or leads us to error (Descartes)?

Both believe God is good and everything to do with God (i.e. creation) is good, but if humans (a creation of God) sin and err then it is possible that God is not wholly good but Descartes and Augustine do not believe this. How do the two give their reasons that God is not responsible for sin and error?

[Faustian Dreams]

Augustine says that it is our free will--which is God-given--that leads us to sin; he weasels his way out of this catch-22 by stating that while God is aware of our predetermined actions, that does not mean he controls them...

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/#2.5

Meanwhile, Descartes explains that it is the imperfection of our senses that leads us to error, that is to say--when one is not in tune with one's soul, he is not embracing the Divine Perfection of God, thus it is instead an absence of God (or somethign to that effect). Once again, another "free will" argument.

http://www.msu.org/intro/content_intro/texts/descartes/descartes4.html#med4

Sorry for the brief response/description. Hopefully it is helpful nonetheless (in addition to the provided links)?

[joon]

Thanks for that - I sent you a PM.

What does Descartes mean when he says that "the scope of our will is wider than our intellect"? And what are "clear and distinct ideas" to Descartes?

Augustine was so difficult to read for me because I was not interested in anything he had to say :confused:

[Faustian Dreams]

By the way, are you doing this for a course, or just on your own? I agree, there needs to be some sort of interest involved, or else reading it drags on...I hated Descartes' Meditations because I can't stand anything he stands for! (dualism, Christianity, free will, French, etc...)

[Milesian]

Reading Aquinas's Summa Theologica might give you more insight into Augustine's position. He expands upon it and posits that Man errs through his free will, which was gifted to him by God. However, God is not responsible merely because he provides the means whch can be abused to sin. Free Will was given so that one might return God's love freely. In order to be free to do so, however, one must by necessity also have the opportunity to do the opposite, otherwise you would not truly be free.

It is akin to an Ironmonger selling you a hammer.
You have the ability to use the hammer as you please, but the hammer is intended for you to use for repairs, DIY, etc. That is it's real purpose.
However, you can pervert the hammer's purpose and use it for ends it was not intended for. Thus you could proceed to use the hammer to bludgeon someone to death with. Now, the murder is completely your own responsibility. You took that action upon yourself. You might try to pass the buck and argue that as the ironmonger provided you with the means to carry out the murder then he should be ultimately responsible for the crime. However, it would be a strange court which agreed with you. Similarly, attributing ultimate blame of sin to God merely because he gave you the means which you perverted to committ the sin is no more than shirking your own responsibility (a common mentality these days in which every crime is in fact "Society's fault" and never the criminal's).

Aquinas puts it as "the defect is in the agent", that is the person using/abusing Free Will, not the provider of Free Will itself.