Might be useful to know.

[cerberus]

Just who has who on ignore .:whip:
At present I have no one on ignore , who do you have on ignore ?

[cerberus]

So, this has been open for 24 hours and no one has ventured in to say I have X,Y, Z on ignore ?

No one has anyone on ignore then ?

[eggheadbanga]

So, this has been open for 24 hours and no one has ventured in to say I have X,Y, Z on ignore ?

No one has anyone on ignore then ?

I have ivory bill and Dances with Wolves on permanent ignore. I took delete and calvin off ignore. If they go back on, it'll be in my sig.

:welcome:

[Captain Marinesko]

I have Bill on ignore, but lately the forum's been so dead I've been replying to him just for kicks.

[eggheadbanga]

I have Bill on ignore, but lately the forum's been so dead I've been replying to him just for kicks.

Rather you than me.:whip:

[Fitz]

So, this has been open for 24 hours and no one has ventured in to say I have X,Y, Z on ignore ?

No one has anyone on ignore then ?

Obviously, they all have you on ignore, lol.

[Captain Marinesko]

Rather you than me.:whip:


I kinda feel sorry for the guy. You know he's probably a heavy hitter on VNN or SF. He comes here, with such fervent beliefs, and yet he feels so intimidated that he can't defend them when the deck's not stacked in his favor.

[eggheadbanga]

I kinda feel sorry for the guy. You know he's probably a heavy hitter on VNN or SF. He comes here, with such fervent beliefs, and yet he feels so intimidated that he can't defend them when the deck's not stacked in his favor.

A heavy hitter on VNN. The mind boggles. :p

[Winston]

Globus is the only person to ever go on my ignore list.

Why is this in the revisionism forum?

[eggheadbanga]

Globus is the only person to ever go on my ignore list.

Why is this in the revisionism forum?

Because it concerns who is ignoring who in the revisionism forum. No doubt it can be kicked into touch soon.

[cerberus]

Fitz
Obviously, they all have you on ignore, lol.
Its not hard to work out who has one on ignore , I just wonder who has everyone else on ignore as well.

The revisionist strategy would indicate that ignore was going to be the order of the day - discussion without insult was the admin. intent and by and large this has been effective , the down side is this we are going to ignore you situation.
No odds if people want to talk to themselves thats fine , boring but fine.
All that results is a totally fragmeneted / schizophrenic series of threads - if fokks are happy with this all well and good.

[Fitz]

Fitz

Its not hard to work out who has one on ignore , I just wonder who has everyone else on ignore as well.

The revisionist strategy would indicate that ignore was going to be the order of the day - discussion without insult was the admin. intent and by and large this has been effective , the down side is this we are going to ignore you situation.
No odds if people want to talk to themselves thats fine , boring but fine.
All that results is a totally fragmeneted / schizophrenic series of threads - if fokks are happy with this all well and good.

I've never had a problem discussing the holocaust without resorting to insults and name-calling. But it's been my experience (in other places) that those who pretend they are defending the dignity of the victims of the holocaust feel entitled to engage in the lowest forms of personal attack.

I think the holocaust, and the liberal reaction to it, are the keys to understanding the screwed-up societies we are living in. Until we can approach this issue with balance and free of all the emotional crap attached to it, we won't be able to address critical issues like race, immigration and our relationship with Israel.

[cerberus]

Israel holds no special interest for me at all , they have innsome ways failed to learn from their own experiences.

The low form of attacks believe me its not a one way street.

[Fitz]

I'm glad that you in Ireland are so insulated from the problems in the Middle East.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

I dare say it, I don't think addressing the holocaust has the slightest relation to addressing race issues.

You can address race and immigration, without addressing the holocaust, you can even discuss race and immigration in the name of protecting jewish people. http://inverted-world.com

You are preposing what is known as a false dilemma. You are trying to convince people that issues that are really quite independent are in fact related to each other, in order to get people to side with your agenda. Knowing full well that many pro-white people are not anti-jew, you try to convince them that they will not reach their goals without becoming so. It is quite clever. But we will not be fooled. And people can see that these issues are not related. So no, that's not true, no matter how badly you desperately wish it was. People will not be tricked into diverting their attention from race issues to the holocaust, under the banner of a supposed pro-white platform.

Until we address race issues, and immigration, we shouldn't even think about addressing the holocaust...the only way we can truly be free is to focus on race and immigration, and NOT on the holocaust. To deny these issues their independence from each other, and add extra ideological purity, certainly does more harm than good.

[Captain Marinesko]

Excellent points. The Holocaust really has absolutely nothing to do with the behavior of whites today. Of course when you say that you'll get an avalanche of certain WNs talking about how the Holocaust is preventing whites from organizing, "white guilt", etc. etc. They're just pissed because the Holocaust does prevent a copy of the Nazi movement from rising.

[Fitz]

The Holocaust really has absolutely nothing to do with the behavior of whites today.

The holocaust has everything to do with the behavior of Jews and their promotion of certain policies within White nations. And it is THE given reason for the existence of Israel, and consequently it is the reason we are poised on the brink of nuclear war in the Middle East. If the holocaust was as unimportant as you claim, there wouldn't be the drive to stifle all dissent. That should be obvious.

[Captain Marinesko]

As I predicted....

The Holocaust isn't the reason why Israel exists. What actually spurred the rise of Zionism was persecution by Imperial Russia, which caused people to first start settling there. Just face the facts that Israel exists because they came in their and fought for it, several times, and won. I never liked those whiners who said whites don't have a right to land in the US; and I decided I'm not going to break the Jews' balls for basically doing the same thing.

Besides, Uzis are badass.

[cerberus]

Fitz
I'm glad that you in Ireland are so insulated from the problems in the Middle East.
Fitz - you should have been here about 20 years ago .:whip:
Captain marinesko is correct - israel exists not because Eichmann was a nice man but because the Jews fought for it.

[Fitz]

As I predicted....

The Holocaust isn't the reason why Israel exists. What actually spurred the rise of Zionism was persecution by Imperial Russia, which caused people to first start settling there. Just face the facts that Israel exists because they came in their and fought for it, several times, and won. I never liked those whiners who said whites don't have a right to land in the US; and I decided I'm not going to break the Jews' balls for basically doing the same thing.

I'm not sure what think you predicted but you are rather predictable yourself on a few issues.

Israel exists because it has the unconditional financial and military support of The United States. As you saw in Lebanon recently, the myth of the invincible Israeli military has been exposed. What the Arab states fear is the treatment Iraq is getting from Israel's bully.

The use of the holocaust by Jewish organizations to insure the support of the American people has been as important as their money power over US politicians. If the Jews are attempting to deny a link between the holocaust and Israel at this point, it's only because the Arabs have started to effectively use it against them by pointing out Jewish hypocrisy and double standards.

[eggheadbanga]

I'm not sure what think you predicted but you are rather predictable yourself on a few issues.

Israel exists because it has the unconditional financial and military support of The United States.

Nonsense. Israel managed quite well on its own before US aid began to flow in the 1970s, and is managing quite well with less and less aid today.

Israel has a diversified modern economy with substantial government ownership and a rapidly developing high-tech sector. Poor in natural resources, Israel depends on imports of petroleum, coal, food, uncut diamonds, other production inputs, and military equipment. It also has received substantial direct economic aid from the United States, including approximately $1.2 billion per year since the mid-1970's, although that regular annual amount has been being tapered off by $120 million per year beginning in 1998. In 2006, direct economic aid from the US amounted to $240 million, or about 0.15% of Israel's GDP. The country's GDP (Purchasing power parity) in 2005 reached $155 billion, about $25 thousand per capita, roughly comparable to middle-income western European nations such as Greece or Spain. The major industrial sectors include metal products, electronic and biomedical equipment, processed foods, chemicals, and transport equipment. Israel possesses a substantial service sector and the Israel diamond industry is one of the world's centers for diamond cutting and polishing. It is also a world leader in software development and is a major tourist destination. In 1998, Tel Aviv was named by Newsweek as one of the ten most technologically influential cities in the world.[1] American billionaires and business tycoons Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Donald Trump have each praised Israel’s economic environment.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

As you saw in Lebanon recently, the myth of the invincible Israeli military has been exposed. What the Arab states fear is the treatment Iraq is getting from Israel's bully.

You mean, was exposed back in 1982 the first time around.

The use of the holocaust by Jewish organizations to insure the support of the American people has been as important as their money power over US politicians. If the Jews are attempting to deny a link between the holocaust and Israel at this point, it's only because the Arabs have started to effectively use it against them by pointing out Jewish hypocrisy and double standards.

What link between the Holocaust and Israel? Please, spell it out. Don't forget to respect chronology between 1917 and 2006, though. Something tells me you can't.

[Fitz]

Nonsense. Israel managed quite well on its own before US aid began to flow in the 1970s, and is managing quite well with less and less aid today.

Managing quite well, LOL. I'd like to see Israel pay for the cost of this war they incited in Iraq in blood and money. They'd be finished in a month. I'd also like to see Israel cut off from the tax free contributions of American Jews who are stirred to support Israel with endless holocaust propaganda. All the trade concessions, loans and outright aid are critical to the pariah state. Why do you think AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in the world?

You mean, was exposed back in 1982 the first time around.

Or 1973. I've never believed the myth personally.

What link between the Holocaust and Israel? Please, spell it out. Don't forget to respect chronology between 1917 and 2006, though. Something tells me you can't.

Harry Truman.

[eggheadbanga]

Managing quite well, LOL. I'd like to see Israel pay for the cost of this war they incited in Iraq in blood and money.They'd be finished in a month.

I didn't ask you about your fantasies.

I'd also like to see Israel cut off from the tax free contributions of American Jews who are stirred to support Israel with endless holocaust propaganda.

As I said, I didn't ask you about your fantasies.

All the trade concessions, loans and outright aid are critical to the pariah state.

Clearly you can't read. 0.15% of Israeli GDP comes from US aid.

Why do you think AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in the world?

You're extremely naive about how the world works if you think AIPAC rules it.

Quote:
You mean, was exposed back in 1982 the first time around.

Or 1973. I've never believed the myth personally.

No, you wouldn't would you. Be careful, debunk the myth of Israeli military prowess too successfully and the result is a fictitious occupation of the West Bank. After all, if Jews can't fight their way out of a paper bag then how come they won in 1967. :p

Quote:
What link between the Holocaust and Israel? Please, spell it out. Don't forget to respect chronology between 1917 and 2006, though. Something tells me you can't.

Harry Truman.

Elaborate. So far all I see is the name of the President who recognised Israel, not any proof of a connection between the Holocaust and Israel. Spell it out, so we can all have a laugh.

[Fitz]

You must be joking with the GDP of Israel bullshit. We are spending the equivalent of Israel's GDP fighting the war in Iraq for one year alone. And I can see how conversations with you could spiral downward very fast. All one has to do is to address you in the same sniveling condescending manner that you've used to address me. If you're the best that the Phora has to offer to represent the Jewish view, I'm not too worried or impressed.

[Trojan]

You must be joking with the GDP of Israel bullshit. We are spending the equivalent of Israel's GDP fighting the war in Iraq for one year alone. And I can see how conversations with you could spiral downward very fast. All one has to do is to address you in the same sniveling condescending manner that you've used to address me. If you're the best that the Phora has to offer to represent the Jewish view, I'm not too worried or impressed.

If that's the best argument you can make, you best go back to Stormfront for some additional training. :D

[eggheadbanga]

You must be joking with the GDP of Israel bullshit. We are spending the equivalent of Israel's GDP fighting the war in Iraq for one year alone.

It seems you're somewhat misinformed about why the US invaded Iraq.

And I can see how conversations with you could spiral downward very fast. All one has to do is to address you in the same sniveling condescending manner that you've used to address me. If you're the best that the Phora has to offer to represent the Jewish view, I'm not too worried or impressed.

So basically you can't answer any of my queries. That's nice.

[Captain Marinesko]

I'm not sure what think you predicted but you are rather predictable yourself on a few issues.

Israel exists because it has the unconditional financial and military support of The United States.

Then how did it exist so long before 1973, when major aid first came? Were you aware that the US supported an arms embargo on the region during the 1948 war, and arms had to be smuggled in with the help of the Soviet Union via Czechoslovakia. That's why them Jews were flying Messerschmitts(ok they were Avia S199s but it's basically a variant). Of course pre-73 the Israeli army fielded a lot of M3 halftracks and Shermans, but those were bought from France(who got them during WWII), and often had to be modified with other weapons.



As you saw in Lebanon recently, the myth of the invincible Israeli military has been exposed. What the Arab states fear is the treatment Iraq is getting from Israel's bully.

If anything, the US moved into Iraq because neocons are losing confidence in Israel.

[Ahknaton]

Obviously, they all have you on ignore, lol.
You can't put moderators on ignore.

[cerberus]

Ahknabashi
You can't put moderators on ignore.
I guess I might be on " double secret" ignore as per "double secret probation" in National Lampoons Animal House".:)

[delete]

Clearly you can't read. 0.15% of Israeli GDP comes from US aid.


Jewish math :) :) :)

Us aid to Israel = 2.6 billion usd
GNP of Israel = 166.3 billion usd

And this gives us 2.6*100/166.3 = ca 1.5 %

It is 1.5 % of GNP.

You should not make jokes about the intelligence of others for a while. :)

[eggheadbanga]

Jewish math :) :) :)

Us aid to Israel = 2.6 billion usd
GNP of Israel = 166.3 billion usd

And this gives us 2.6*100/166.3 = ca 1.5 %

It is 1.5 % of GNP.

You should not make jokes about the intelligence of others for a while. :)

I'll continue to make jokes about your intelligence, because you also can't read the source cited. And because you ignore the distinction between civilian and military aid. Israel now receives less civilian aid than many African countries from the US.

A whopping 0.15% of Israeli GDP is civilian aid. Wow, stop the press! That means the Israeli economy is completely healthy without a drop of US money, whereas rocket-scientist Fitz as well as idiots like yourself seem to think that Israel "would collapse without US aid".

You also might stop to realise that much of the civilian aid from the 1970s to the 1990s was paid in order to defray the costs of integrating Russian Jewish emigres.

The rest is military aid. Does Israel need to have such a high defense budget? I don't think so. I think it spends an awful lot of money on high-tech weaponry it doesn't need, in order to subsidise US arms industries. A great deal all round. The US military-industrial complex is kept alive, and criticism is deflected from the US onto Israel, with the result that antisemitic morons can whine and complain endlessly. Does Israel benefit from the subsidies? Sure, but not so much that "it would collapse" without the aid. Faced with the choice of spending extra money on new aircraft and not spending the money, they'd go without, and keep the old aircraft in service for longer, instead of upgrading them.

What is missing here is the arms industry dimension. Israel is the fifth-largest weapons exporter to the US. Israel sold in 2006 something like $4.2 billion in arms to the world, the number one customer is India. Israel takes about 10-12% of the world arms trade.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_10/b3923097_mz015.htm

http://www.weltpolitik.net/Regionen/Naher%20u.%20Mittlerer%20Osten/Israel/Analysen/Israeli%20arms%20exports:%20still%20a%20means%20of%20quiet%20diplomacy%3F.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3338042,00.html

All of which means that US aid goes into one door and financially, an equal or larger sum is then sold on to other countries around the world, most of whom are US friends.

The US successfully pressured Israel to stop certain arms exports and potential technology transfers to China recently. So much for the power of the 'Israel lobby'.

[Captain Marinesko]

People forget that the military aid going to Israel comes with strings attached, namely that the Israelis must spend that money on US weapons. It's robbery by US defense contractors from the American people. Israel is simply an intermediary. Technically that must cause some problems for Israel's domestic arms producers.

[Burrhus]

I will tell you precisely whom I have on ignore.

Puerile flame warriors who hurl abusive language at those whom they can't understand, people who offer irrational arguments in supposed rebuttal to rational arguments that threaten their agenda, jews and philo-semites who don't give a damn about the truth and are only interested in maintaining the lies that continue to undermine the foundations of Western Civilization and trolls whose only purpose in posting is to hijack threads and make the Hist Rev forum a place that third-party readers find ridiculous and un-readable, and thus eminently avoidable, which is exactly what the trolls want.

Those in the above categories whom I cannot put on ignore de jure are on ignore de facto, I scroll past their posts.

I do this not to avoid debate but rather because those mentioned are not interested in debate. They are only interested in wrecking rational debate and driving away curious readers whom they don't want exposed to a version of history that conflicts with their dishonest version.

After sufficient experience 'debating' with these people who lack intellectual integrity, intelligence or both, I determined that there was no point in throwing good effort after bad.

The amount of time wasted and spent being irritated has diminished greatly. I highly recommend the choice of ignoring them.

[Captain Marinesko]

No, you have people on ignore who ask inconvenient questions about your claims, the latest being your claim that pictures of Hitler are "emotionally charged" and "negative" unless he's feeding a baby deer or whatever.

You are a pseudointellectual, waxing philosophically(and not particularly good at it I might add), posing rhetorical questions, and spouting meaningless sayings.

Ad hominem? You bet. I tried to debate something rationally with you(your favorite thread about Hitler pictures), and you just ignored me the whole time. So what's left to do?

[Globus]

I will tell you precisely whom I have on ignore.

Puerile flame warriors who hurl abusive language at those whom they can't understand, people who offer irrational arguments in supposed rebuttal to rational arguments that threaten their agenda, jews and philo-semites who don't give a damn about the truth and are only interested in maintaining the lies that continue to undermine the foundations of Western Civilization and trolls whose only purpose in posting is to hijack threads and make the Hist Rev forum a place that third-party readers find ridiculous and un-readable, and thus eminently avoidable, which is exactly what the trolls want.

You ignore people because they embarrass you by pointing out how little of substance is contained in your posts and you realize when the day is done that there is little for you to even defend.

[Globus]

I'll continue to make jokes about your intelligence, because you also can't read the source cited. And because you ignore the distinction between civilian and military aid. Israel now receives less civilian aid than many African countries from the US.

Israel spends today around $10 billion on defense. That's less than 10% of GNP, which happens to be the highest in the world. But in the past Israel has spent 25% of GNP on defense. A loss of all US aid could be replaced by an increase from 10% to 12 or 13% of GNP and still be substantially less than at times in the past.

[eggheadbanga]

I will tell you precisely whom I have on ignore.

Actually, you didn't tell us precisely who you have on ignore.

But I guess you can't see this, so I might as well flame you:

Burrhus, you are without a doubt the most pompous blowhard on the Phora.

[delete]

I'll continue to make jokes about your intelligence, because you also can't read the source cited. And because you ignore the distinction between civilian and military aid. Israel now receives less civilian aid than many African countries from the US.

A whopping 0.15% of Israeli GDP is civilian aid. Wow, stop the press! That means the Israeli economy is completely healthy without a drop of US money, whereas rocket-scientist Fitz as well as idiots like yourself seem to think that Israel "would collapse without US aid".


Attack is alwas the best defence, for you guys.

This is from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/18/dobbs.july19/index.html
While the United States provides about $2.5 billion in military and economic aid to Israel each year, U.S. aid to Lebanon amounts to no more than $40 million. This despite the fact that the per capita GDP of Israel is among the highest in the world at $24,600, nearly four times as high as Lebanon's GDP per capita of $6,200.

When other nations in NATO for instance buy weapons from eachother, buy back deals are often on the table, as defence industry is unregulated by WHO IIRC.

It is a fact that the United States provides about $2.5 billion in military and economic aid to Israel each year, which amouts to ca 1.5 % of GDP.

[Fitz]

You can't put moderators on ignore.

Well that must complicate things since half of the people posting here are admin or moderators. I've never used the function anywhere, so it won't make a difference to me.

Then how did [Israel] exist so long before 1973, when major aid first came? Were you aware that the US supported an arms embargo on the region during the 1948 war,

Words matter and I try to choose them carefully. I said Israel "has" the unconditional financial and military support of The United States. I didn't say "has always had". And yes, I know about the history of Israel and the weapons from the communist jew led government of CZ. Israeli Mausers used to be common at gunshows. But I also know that US Jews, among them organized crime figures, were actively shipping arms into Israel at the same time. The arms embargo was a good idea. If only we had kept them from going nuclear.

If anything, the US moved into Iraq because neocons are losing confidence in Israel.

Did you read my response to Woody Allen? We are spending the equivalent of Israel's GDP fighting the war in Iraq for one year alone. Israel could never do it alone, not even if they put a uniform on every Jew in Israel. They don't have the money, they don't have the men, and they don't have the guts.

People forget that the military aid going to Israel comes with strings attached, namely that the Israelis must spend that money on US weapons. It's robbery by US defense contractors from the American people.

• The US has given $2.5 billion to support Israel's Lavi fighter and Arrow missile projects.

• Israel buys discounted, serviceable "excess" US military equipment. Stauffer says these discounts amount to "several billion dollars" over recent years.

• Israel uses roughly 40 percent of its $1.8 billion per year in military aid, ostensibly earmarked for purchase of US weapons, to buy Israeli-made hardware. It also has won the right to require the Defense Department or US defense contractors to buy Israeli-made equipment or subsystems, paying 50 to 60 cents on every defense dollar the US gives to Israel.

US help, financial and technical, has enabled Israel to become a major weapons supplier. Weapons make up almost half of Israel's manufactured exports. US defense contractors often resent the buy-Israel requirements and the extra competition subsidized by US taxpayers.

• US policy and trade sanctions reduce US exports to the Middle East about $5 billion a year, costing 70,000 or so American jobs, Stauffer estimates. Not requiring Israel to use its US aid to buy American goods, as is usual in foreign aid, costs another 125,000 jobs.

• Israel has blocked some major US arms sales, such as F-15 fighter aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the mid-1980s. That cost $40 billion over 10 years, says Stauffer.

Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US
(http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html)

[eggheadbanga]

Attack is alwas the best defence, for you guys.

This is from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/18/dobbs.july19/index.html


Why would the US want to give masses of aid to a country in which Hezbollah sits in the cabinet?

When other nations in NATO for instance buy weapons from eachother, buy back deals are often on the table, as defence industry is unregulated by WHO IIRC.

Wow, you're almost learning. Yes, the arms trade is evil, and yes, Israel benefits from it. Do you think I actually care about Israel? I don't particularly. I could be correcting your mistakes about the political economy of Timbuktu for all I care. If you fail to show common-sense understanding of the world, then you will be called on it.

It is a fact that the United States provides about $2.5 billion in military and economic aid to Israel each year, which amouts to ca 1.5 % of GDP.

Of which virtually all is military aid. Israel has in its entire history received more or less the same amount of civilian aid as my own country, the UK, since 1945 (i.e., the Marshall Plan).

What I haven't heard from either of you is how this directly relates to the alleged 'Holohoax'.

Supposedly you'd have us believe that the Poles, who didn't benefit from US aid of any kind, created a story in 1942, on behalf of a population group that most Poles hated, but who could predict the future and know for sure that there would come a time over 3 decades later, when their world domination plans were sufficiently ripe that they could squeeze the rich US - who they absolutely knew would still be rich, and stil be capitalist, and not have fallen sway to communism or a rival ideology - for some economic aid, all in exchange for hiding 5+ million of their coreligionists no one knows where, despite a desperate shortage of warm bodies for the Haganah/IDF badly needed to help ethnically-cleanse Arabs from future, as-yet-unoccupied Israeli territory.

Yeah, right.

[Fitz]

What I haven't heard from either of you is how this directly relates to the alleged 'Holohoax'.

Supposedly you'd have us believe that the Poles, who didn't benefit from US aid of any kind, created a story in 1942, on behalf of a population group that most Poles hated, but who could predict the future and know for sure that there would come a time over 3 decades later, when their world domination plans were sufficiently ripe that they could squeeze the rich US - who they absolutely knew would still be rich, and stil be capitalist, and not have fallen sway to communism or a rival ideology - for some economic aid, all in exchange for hiding 5+ million of their coreligionists no one knows where, despite a desperate shortage of warm bodies for the Haganah/IDF badly needed to help ethnically-cleanse Arabs from future, as-yet-unoccupied Israeli territory.

Yeah, right.

I've claimed nothing of the sort, and I doubt anyone else has either. How about a link to a specific post in this thread?

[eggheadbanga]

Quote:
What I haven't heard from either of you is how this directly relates to the alleged 'Holohoax'.

Supposedly you'd have us believe that the Poles, who didn't benefit from US aid of any kind, created a story in 1942, on behalf of a population group that most Poles hated, but who could predict the future and know for sure that there would come a time over 3 decades later, when their world domination plans were sufficiently ripe that they could squeeze the rich US - who they absolutely knew would still be rich, and stil be capitalist, and not have fallen sway to communism or a rival ideology - for some economic aid, all in exchange for hiding 5+ million of their coreligionists no one knows where, despite a desperate shortage of warm bodies for the Haganah/IDF badly needed to help ethnically-cleanse Arabs from future, as-yet-unoccupied Israeli territory.

Yeah, right.


I've claimed nothing of the sort, and I doubt anyone else has either. How about a link to a specific post in this thread?

Here we go. Here's what you said.

The holocaust has everything to do with the behavior of Jews and their promotion of certain policies within White nations. And it is THE given reason for the existence of Israel, and consequently it is the reason we are poised on the brink of nuclear war in the Middle East.

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20026&page=2

Apparently, the Holocaust, which you doubt, as seen elsewhere on this forum, is THE given reason for the existence of Israel. Apparently, events in 2006 are down to events in 1942, according to you.

Did it ever occur to you that a lot can change in sixty years?

If the holocaust was as unimportant as you claim, there wouldn't be the drive to stifle all dissent. That should be obvious.

The usual fallacious argument, since it doesn't apply in the US no matter how you try and skin that particular cat. I've yet to see a single conspiraloony website shut down despite the claims verging on incitement to violence against the US government on many of them. I see McNally, Hufschmid and the other conspiraloonies at liberty and at large, albeit failing to make much money, because their audience is not exactly the biggest now is it? Tough shit.

[eggheadbanga]

The holocaust has everything to do with the behavior of Jews and their promotion of certain policies within White nations. And it is THE given reason for the existence of Israel, and consequently it is the reason we are poised on the brink of nuclear war in the Middle East.

I like this quote so much I want to say something else about it. Does Fitz think that by denying the Jewish Holocaust a nuclear holocaust can be avoided?

[Fitz]

The holocaust has everything to do with the behavior of Jews and their promotion of certain policies within White nations. And it is THE given reason for the existence of Israel, and consequently it is the reason we are poised on the brink of nuclear war in the Middle East.

I said "given reason". I could have said "ostensible reason" or better still for the not-so-quick, "justification for the existence of Israel".

Does Fitz think that by denying the Jewish Holocaust a nuclear holocaust can be avoided?

I think that the holocaust is used by Israel and its supporters as justification for Israel's violation of international laws in its treatment of the Palestinian people and the illegal occupation of their land. Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people has destabilized the entire region, and has cost America by association our own national security and prestige. I'm for balance on the issue of the holocaust, where past Jewish suffering isn't unique or special, and doesn't trump present day suffering by people who stand in the way of Israel's political ambitions. I do think that would be an important step towards peace. MvH, I hope that's enough for you. I'm not here to dance to your klezmer music.

[eggheadbanga]

The holocaust has everything to do with the behavior of Jews and their promotion of certain policies within White nations. And it is THE given reason for the existence of Israel, and consequently it is the reason we are poised on the brink of nuclear war in the Middle East.

I said "given reason". I could have said "ostensible reason" or better still for the not-so-quick, "justification for the existence of Israel".

Now you're confusing ex post facto rationalisations with actual causes.

The Holocaust had very little to do with the actual formation of the state of Israel. That was down to Zionism, the principle of national self-determination enunciated by Wilson, and the Balfour Declaration of 1917, coupled with emigration to Palestine, to a level where by the 1930s the British mandate-holders accepted partition was probably inevitable. The Holocaust deprived Israel of much potential population, so that the majority of immigrants were actually from the Arab world. They didn't give a shit about the Holocaust. They cared about how they were treated like dirt by the Iraqis after 1948. Quite a number of Israelis therefore had good reason to hate Arabs with a passion.

It then took 25 years to get to a stage where the Arab-Israeli conflict was entrenched and had taken on a life of its own. At this point, some Israeli politicians like Begin started droning on about the Holocaust as justification for invading Lebanon in 1982 and generally being a drooling right-wing embarrassment. That was because the stupid Arabs wouldn't stop going on about driving Israel into the sea.

It took a whole generation after the event before the Holocaust became 'central' to Israeli and Jewish identity.

But it also took a whole generation before many things relating to WWII were examined. By that time, the Holocaust had been universalised and Americanised anyhow. People don't read the Anne Frank Diary or watch Schindler's List and think, 'hmmm, must support Israel!'. They read Anne Frank's Diary or watch Schindler's List and empathise with the people stuck in an extreme situation, trying all the while to get their heads around the idea that one people could mass-murder another people, both of which looked largely like Americans of the same era and not funny-coloured Africans or Chinese or Russian peasants. That's why people are interested in the Holocaust.

Quote:
Does Fitz think that by denying the Jewish Holocaust a nuclear holocaust can be avoided?

I think that the holocaust is used by Israel and its supporters as justification for Israel's violation of international laws in its treatment of the Palestinian people and the illegal occupation of their land.

Sure, there are plenty of abuses of the memory of the Holocaust by Israeli and American Jewish organisations. I don't like the ADL much either. But there are equally criticisms thrown at Israel by Jews and Israelis themselves BECAUSE of the Holocaust. Every time some doofus compares Israel to the Nazis or starts warbling on about 'genocide', that criticism is entirely founded on the implicit culturally shared assumption that the Jews were the victims of mass murder in WWII.

Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people has destabilized the entire region, and has cost America by association our own national security and prestige.

I wouldn't disagree here.

I'm for balance on the issue of the holocaust, where past Jewish suffering isn't unique or special, and doesn't trump present day suffering by people who stand in the way of Israel's political ambitions. I do think that would be an important step towards peace. MvH, I hope that's enough for you.

Fitz, you're conflating two issues here in a virtual mirror-image of a Likudnik settler fanatic.

Virtually the entire world accepts that the Holocaust happened and also recognise the state of Israel at least up to the 1967 borders.

The only people that don't recognise the state of Israel are some Arab states out of pseudo-solidarity with the Palestinians, a people they have universally treated like shit.

Simialrly, the only people that don't accept the Holocaust happened are Arabs and some WN lunatics, in the latter case therefore leading some of the more deranged to 'side with' fundamentalist Bush-clones like Ahmadinejad. WNs don't give a shit about the Palestinians except in so far as they sock it to the Jews.

Yet look at the rest of the world's conduct and you find endless criticisms of Israeli conduct in countries that (a) recognise the state of Israel and (b) regard the Holocaust as part of their national histories, because it happened in them. That's how it is in Europe.

In the US, you still get endless criticisms of Israel, from the left and right, from people that don't see this as a Holocaust issue. The US has voted against Israel along with the rest of the world in the UN Security Council a majority of the times their behaviour has come up for a vote, and vetoed resolutions in a minority of occasions.

Yes, there's a very valid debate to have about whether it's in the US strategic interests to be funding Israel's high-tech military, but dragging in all manner of crap from sixty years ago is just handing the other side a propaganda coup on a platter.

The question I have for you is which you worry about more, the Holocaust or Israel. Because they are eminently separable issues and it does you no favours to conflate them.

If you have a viewpoint on Israel's place in the world today, you have an endless ream of points to make without sounding like a knee-jerk Stormfront drone. But you should probably do so in a different sub-forum, because this one deals with history and not contemporary Middle Eastern politics.

If you have a viewpoint on the history of the 1940s, then you may wish to try another forum altogether, because you'll have your ass handed to you on this one, and that's just talking about people like Captain Marinesko.

I'm not here to dance to your klezmer music.

Oh yes, the obligatory VNN/Stormfront insinuation that I must be Jewish. I'm not Jewish, Fitz. I'm a historian. Holocaust denial isn't just offensive to Jews, it's intellectually offensive to my profession. You'd be surprised at some of my views on Iraq and the Middle East. So be careful with your silly stereotypes.

[calvin]

Oh yes, the obligatory VNN/Stormfront insinuation that I must be Jewish. I'm not Jewish, Fitz. I'm a historian. Holocaust denial isn't just offensive to Jews, it's intellectually offensive to my profession. You'd be surprised at some of my views on Iraq and the Middle East. So be careful with your silly stereotypes

No one would be remotely surprised by any of your views on Iraq and the Middle East, we can flip open the Guardian newspaper and find your views on virtually anything contained within. You are part of tenured academia, bloated on scholarships and ready to be humiliated by people like Gary Brecher as was smug neocon Victor Davis Hanson.

[Kriger]

Left out some major events there, Milhouse, like the British White Paper, the Biltmore program, the Evian Conference, acts of the Jewish Agency, the Anglo-American Palestine Committee, Chaim Weizmann president of the World Zionist Organization and his relation with Arabs. As long as you are going to provide us with an outline of events, these certainly rank up there.

The Holocaust has always been directly linked to the establishment of Palestine in Israel. It was the solution being offered to world governments as the answer to the Jewish Question. It was the main focus of government policies towards the problem of Jewish refugees in Europe during the war. These policies were shaped by the Zionists who supposedly represented the Jewish people. In truth they supported their own agenda, and not that of the Jewish people. The governments were all for getting the Jewish people out of Europe, including the Nazi government. Zionist political goals of establishing Palestine as a Jewish nation state interfered with these proposals by different countries right down the line.

That's the whole history of the Holocaust, Milhouse, the whole history as is known by the Jewish people themselves.

"Similarly, at the annual dinner of the Anglo-American Palestine Committee on May 25, 1942, Weizmann declared that Palestine must be the only plan for settlement for Jewish refugees. Weizmann: 'Palestine alone could absorb and provide for the homeless and the stateless Jews uprooted by the war. It is canalized all the sympathy of the world for the martyrdom of the Jews that the Zionists reject all the schemes to resettle these victims elsewhere--in Germany, or Poland, or in sparsely populated regions such as Madagascar'.

These are some of the events of the Holocaust that are being discussed in many Jewish communities and organizations throughout the world.

They do not deny the the Holocaust either. By the same token, they do not deny actual events that not only influenced the Holocaust, but that interfered with policies being presented to assist the Jewish people in Europe.
The core of these influences and interference was the World Zionist Organization. The Jewish people themselves know this to be true. And you, Milhouse, continue to make light of what the Jewish people themselves know about Holocaust history. That makes you the denier.

To say otherwise is to deny the true history in it's totality.

The Holocaust has been turned into some type of religious icon that if the whole world does not worship, laws are enacted to make them do so.

Serious attempts to make Holocaust history a forced religion in countries not currently having denial laws are being seriously lobbied in these countries to date.

The Jewish people are having their say about the Holocaust, Milhouse, you really need to listen to what they are saying. The whole world needs to listen to what they are saying. I know I am.

[eggheadbanga]

Left out some major events there, Milhouse, like the British White Paper,

Oh yes, the White Paper. British policy actually disproves the idea that the Holocaust 'led to the creation of Israel', because British policy towards Palestine remained resolutely unmoved by any of the manifold reports of persecution and atrocity emerging from continental Europe from November 1938 through to the day they quit the Mandate.

the Biltmore program,

Enacted before firm news emerged of the disaster unfolding in Poland.

the Evian Conference,

Held after the White Paper, IIRC.

acts of the Jewish Agency,

What are these?

the Anglo-American Palestine Committee,

In April 1946, the AAPC recommended AGAINST partition in Palestine but accepted a demographic loss of 5.7 million European Jews during WWII. This shows clearly that the formation of the state of Israel was not an inevitable consequence of the war, but developed because of events on the ground in Palestine.

Chaim Weizmann president of the World Zionist Organization and his relation with Arabs.

Weizmann was marginalised after the 'Biltmore program'.

As long as you are going to provide us with an outline of events, these certainly rank up there.

One could cite a myriad other events as well.

The Holocaust has always been directly linked to the establishment of Palestine in Israel.

No, it has not. Zionism originated in the late 19th Century. The Balfour declaration was in 1917. The British mandate began shortly thereafter, once Palestine was seized from the Ottoman Empire. Until 1939, British policy was to manage immigration to Palestine with a view towards fulfilling their promise of 1917.

At this point in time, the overwhelming majority of European Jews were not Zionists.

It was the solution being offered to world governments as the answer to the Jewish Question.

What? The Holocaust or Palestine?

It was the main focus of government policies towards the problem of Jewish refugees in Europe during the war.

Which? The Holocaust or Palestine?

These policies were shaped by the Zionists who supposedly represented the Jewish people. In truth they supported their own agenda, and not that of the Jewish people.

Zionism was marginal in Poland. The Bund were the most popular party. The Bund were anti-Zionists. Indeed, the first report of gassings to be publicised by Jewish organisations came from the Bund, not from the Zionists.

The governments were all for getting the Jewish people out of Europe, including the Nazi government.

No, they were not. You contradict yourself by mentioning the White Paper and then saying something as dumb as 'the governments were all for getting the Jewish people out of Europe'. The British government did not want this to happen. It went on not wanting this to happen almost to the day that the Mandate in Palestine ended.

Yet we are told by various revisionist sources that the selfsame British government merrily tortured prisoners to extract false confessions that are deemed to be of benefit to a 'Zionist' plot.

Zionist political goals of establishing Palestine as a Jewish nation state interfered with these proposals by different countries right down the line.

If you mean your silly website from anti-Zionists, then you can forget about this argument. They provided no sources, no evidence. Their evidence is also contradicted by a string of markers, whereby first Polish, then west European, then German Jews were all prohibited from emigrating Europe, over the course of 1940-41.

That's the whole history of the Holocaust, Milhouse, the whole history as is known by the Jewish people themselves.

Nope.

"Similarly, at the annual dinner of the Anglo-American Palestine Committee on May 25, 1942, Weizmann declared that Palestine must be the only plan for settlement for Jewish refugees. Weizmann: 'Palestine alone could absorb and provide for the homeless and the stateless Jews uprooted by the war. It is canalized all the sympathy of the world for the martyrdom of the Jews that the Zionists reject all the schemes to resettle these victims elsewhere--in Germany, or Poland, or in sparsely populated regions such as Madagascar'.

Look at the date, and then think again.

These are some of the events of the Holocaust that are being discussed in many Jewish communities and organizations throughout the world.

Yes, some, taken out of context and not even placed into date order.

They do not deny the the Holocaust either. By the same token, they do not deny actual events that not only influenced the Holocaust, but that interfered with policies being presented to assist the Jewish people in Europe.

Let's look at some of these events. The Evian conference was designed to deal with the question of German, Austrian and Czech Jews. No one as yet was even thinking about the possibility that Germany might overrun western Europe, the Balkans, invade the Soviet Union and successfully overrun the entirety of Poland. The British White Paper was similarly formulated on the same set of assumptions, namely that it was *unthinkable* in early 1939 that France might fall wholesale to German domination, never mind the plethora of other invasions which totally transformed the situation.

The core of these influences and interference was the World Zionist Organization. The Jewish people themselves know this to be true.

This sounds like yet another reference to your pet anti-Zionists. Therefore, it doesn't actually equate to 'the Jewish people' at all.

And you, Milhouse, continue to make light of what the Jewish people themselves know about Holocaust history. That makes you the denier.

That would be cute, if it weren't for the fact that many Israeli historians (eg Tom Segev) take the same position as I did above, namely that while it seems 'obvious' with hindsight that the Holocaust 'led to' the creation of the state of Israel, a closer examination of the sequence of events finds no such direct connection. Only after the creation of the state of Israel was this connection retroactively enshrined in the beliefs of many Zionists inside and outside of Israel.

To say otherwise is to deny the true history in it's totality.

No, what is to deny history in its (no apostrophe, I'm afraid, Shirt) totality is to project anachronisms back onto a time in the past where people did not and could not know what the outcomes would be.

The Holocaust has been turned into some type of religious icon that if the whole world does not worship, laws are enacted to make them do so.

That would not explain why more than 95% of the world doesn't legislate against denial.

Serious attempts to make Holocaust history a forced religion in countries not currently having denial laws are being seriously lobbied in these countries to date.

The latest attempt, in Italy, was brought forward by *Italians* and denounced as pointless by Italian Jewish organisations.

The Jewish people are having their say about the Holocaust, Milhouse, you really need to listen to what they are saying. The whole world needs to listen to what they are saying. I know I am.

No, you're not. You just cherry-pick some information out of context and ignore everything that's inconvenient to your blithering nonsensical argument.

If there is one underneath the pomposity, that is - you are to coherent argument what jelly is to structural engineering.

[Kriger]

You need to visit some Jews against Zionism websites, Milhouse, you are sorely behind the times. Roughly 20 years or so. Not only are they the source of much of my information, but email me regularly due to the fact that I am a White gentile who is extremely interested in what they have to say about the Holocaust and Zionism, as are my personal friends.

Attempts to discredit the information they provide me with get you nowhere. On a more personal note, I really would like more time to devote to this project. Not only is it extremely informative, but I am enjoying passing the information on.

In the meantime, you are glossing over the role that Zionists played in the Holocaust.

:nono:

Not very scholarly of you.

[eggheadbanga]

You need to visit some Jews against Zionism websites, Milhouse, you are sorely behind the times. Roughly 20 years or so. Not only are they the source of much of my information, but email me regularly due to the fact that I am a White gentile who is extremely interested in what they have to say about the Holocaust and Zionism, as are my personal friends.

Attempts to discredit the information they provide me with get you nowhere. On a more personal note, I really would like more time to devote to this project. Not only is it extremely informative, but I am enjoying passing the information on.

Well, gee, if the information includes links to websites that don't specify their sources, I think I'll pass, thank you very much.

In the meantime, you are glossing over the role that Zionists played in the Holocaust.

Zionists played a marginal role in the events of the Holocaust inside Europe. Not even within resistance and rescue efforts can Zionists be said to be dominant, but they have got the majority of the press because it suited Israeli historiography after 1948 to boost up activists, dead or alive, belonging to their worldview.

The simple fact is that European Jews were extremely divided ideologically, socially and culturally before and during the war.

The idea that Zionism created a 'Hoax' is completely laughable, and shows zero understanding of the sources of information about the camps or the mass shootings in Eastern Europe.

[Kriger]

Other than endless arguments over body counts, how people died, who died and for what reasons, I am not sure what your agenda is, Milhouse.

I just know that the lessons to be learned from World War II or any other war do not reside there. These are the tragic results of other events set into motion. Events set into motion by political agendas of the power players.

The lessons to be learned reside in the various political agendas of all parties concerned and the events set into motion to achieve these political goals.You can deny the facts all you want to, that is your option in life. The truth is that the World Zionist Organization played their role in the evolving events of World War II with their political agenda of establishing a state of Israel in Palestine. They influenced major political decisions of the major players in the war. It is documented, Milhouse. Visit the Jews against Zionism websites. It's all there. All you have to do is read. Read about the history of Zionism from 1897 to the present. You are denying history, Milhouse. Simple as that.

In the meantime, any idiot can see that the world again teeters on the brink of a world gone mad. There are those who maintain it already has gone mad. Again, it is the clash of major political agendas that are creating the evolving events.

The Evian Conference was convened at the initiative of the US President Franklin D. Roosevelt in July 1938 to discuss the problem of Jewish refugees. For nine days delegates from 32 countries met at Evian-les-Bains, France. Not much was accomplished since most western countries were reluctant to accept Jewish refugees. What does that tell you, Milhouse?

As for Weizmann, he served as the president of the World Zionist Organization for two terms--1920 to 1931 and 1935 to 1946. He also went on to become the first president of the state of Israel. Hardly the ostracized and minor role you attempt to portray.

Having said this, I am not arguing with you about this anymore. You have a right to view things as you will for whatever reasons. None of it changes the facts. All anyone has to do is visit the Jews against Zionism websites and start reading. It is all there. Attemtping to discredit me does not make it any less so.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

I'm not sure what think you predicted but you are rather predictable yourself on a few issues.

Israel exists because it has the unconditional financial and military support of The United States. As you saw in Lebanon recently, the myth of the invincible Israeli military has been exposed. What the Arab states fear is the treatment Iraq is getting from Israel's bully.

The use of the holocaust by Jewish organizations to insure the support of the American people has been as important as their money power over US politicians. If the Jews are attempting to deny a link between the holocaust and Israel at this point, it's only because the Arabs have started to effectively use it against them by pointing out Jewish hypocrisy and double standards.
No.

America did not Ally with Israel until AFTER it won the 1967 war. Then, once it was seen as a strong force, THEN we allied. Study some history before you post again, you ignorant fool.

[cerberus]

If you want to do a bitching act do it by PM - I will delete these exchanges which appear on these pages.