The Words of Adolf Hitler

[Richter Freisler]

I: NATURE

Ultimate wisdom always consists in understanding the instinctive causes—that is: a man must never fall into the madness of believing that he has really risen to be lord and master over Nature—which is so easily induced by the conceit of half-education—but must understand the fundamental necessity of Nature’s rule, and realize how much his existence is subject to these laws of eternal combat and upward struggle. Then he will sense that in a universe where planets revolve around suns, and moons turn about planets, where force alone forever masters weakness, compelling it to be an obedient servant or else crushing it, there can be no special laws for man. For him, too, the eternal principles of this ultimate wisdom hold sway. He can try to grasp them; but escape them, never. I:10

When man tries to rebel against the iron logic of Nature, he comes into conflict with principles to which he himself owes his existence as man. And so his action against Nature must lead to his own downfall. I:11

Here too, of course, Nature can be mocked for a certain time, but her revenge will not fail to appear. It just takes time to manifest itself, or rather, it is often recognized too late by man. I:10

Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands. I:2

... This planet once moved through space for millions of years without human beings, and it can do so again some day if men forget that they owe their higher existence, not to the ideas of a few crazy ideologues, but to the knowledge and ruthless application of Nature’s iron-clad laws. I:11

... It is life alone that all things must serve. I:8

[Richter Freisler]

XI: THE STATE

The state is a means to an end. Its end lies in the preservation and advancement of a community of physically and spiritually similar beings. This preservation comprises first of all existence as a race, and thereby permits free development of all the forces dormant in this race.
II:2

Thus, the highest purpose of the racial state is concern for the preservation of those original racial elements which bestow culture and create the beauty and dignity of a higher humanity. We, as Aryans, can conceive of the state only as the living organism of a people, which not only assures the preservation of this people, but by the development of its spiritual and ideal abilities leads it to the highest freedom. II:2

The racial state ... must set race in the center of all life. II:2

... The highest aim of human existence is not preservation of a state, let alone a government, but the preservation of the race. I:3

If, by the instrument of governmental power, a people is being led toward its destruction, then rebellion is not only the right of every member of such a people—it is his duty. I:3

For in the long run systems of government are not maintained by the pressure of force, but by faith in their soundness and in the truthfulness with which they represent and advance the interests of a people. I:10

The best state constitution and state form is that which, with most genuine certainty, raises the best minds of a racial community to leading importance and leading influence. II:4

Starting with the smallest community group and proceeding to the highest leadership of the entire nation, the state must have the principle of personality anchored in its organization. II:4

This principle—absolute responsibility unconditionally coupled with absolute authority—will gradually breed an elite of leaders such as today, in this age of irresponsible democracy, is utterly inconceivable. II:4

By rejecting personal authority and replacing it with the numbers of a momentary mob, the parliamentary principle of majority rule sins against the basic aristocratic idea of Nature ... I:3

Sooner will a camel pass through the eye of a needle than a great man be ‘discovered’ by an election. I:3

And no more than a hundred empty heads make one wise man will a heroic decision arise from a hundred cowards. I:3

Today’s Western democracy is the forerunner of Marxism, which without it would be unthinkable. It provides this world plague with the culture in which its germs can spread. I:3

[Vindex]

Yep, Hitler was right.

[Richter Freisler]

IV: IDEALISM

The purest idealism is unconsciously equivalent to the deepest knowledge.
I:11

How necessary it is to keep realizing that idealism does not represent a superfluous expression of sentiment, but that in truth it has been, is, and always will be the premise for what we call human culture—yes, that it alone created the concept, ‘man.’ It is to this inner attitude that the Aryan owes his position in the world, and to it the world owes man. For it alone formed from pure spirit the creative force which, by a unique pairing of the brutal fist and intellectual genius, created the monuments of human culture. I:11

The Aryan is greatest not in his mental qualities as such, but in the extent of his willingness to put all his abilities in the service of the community. In him the instinct for self-preservation has reached its noblest form, since he willingly subordinates his own ego to the life of the greater whole and, if the hour demands, even sacrifices it. I:11

Without his idealistic attitude all, even the most brilliant faculties of the mind, would remain mere intellect as such—outward appearance without inner worth, and never creative force. But since true idealism is nothing more than the subordination of the interests and life of the individual to the greater whole—and in turn is the precondition for the creation of organizational forms of all kinds—it corresponds in its innermost depths to the ultimate will of Nature. It alone leads men to a voluntary recognition of the privilege of force and strength, and thus makes them particles of that Order which shapes and forms the entire universe. I:11

In giving one’s own life for the existence of the community lies the crown of all sense of sacrifice. It is this alone that prevents what human hands have built from being overthrown by human hands or destroyed by Nature. I:11

As soon as egoism becomes the ruler of a people, the bands of order are loosened and in the pursuit of their own happiness men fall from heaven into a real hell. I:1

Indeed, we may therefore state that not only does man live in order to serve higher ideals, but that conversely these higher ideals also provide the premise for his existence as a person. II:1

[cerberus]

In giving one’s own life for the existence of the community lies the crown of all sense of sacrifice. It is this alone that prevents what human hands have built from being overthrown by human hands or destroyed by Nature. I:11
Could never acuse Hitler of doing this , he was more of a mind to dstroy Germany from the Rhine to Berlin and from the Oder to Berlin and to hell with anyone left , he took the cowards way out.
As soon as egoism becomes the ruler of a people
This could have been written for or about Adolf Hitler.
His ego knew no bounds and his superego was none existant.
Hitler's ego was simply huge and his own opinion of himself was hyperinflated.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I´m really bored but the broken record type of whinnings from Cerb. Coward´s way out? <sigh>

[Sulla the Dictator]

I´m really bored but the broken record type of whinnings from Cerb. Coward´s way out? <sigh>

That was the sentiment of everyone who went on trial at Nuremberg. Frank said he didn't kill himself because it was his job to look after the people who followed his orders. He was supposedly outraged upon learning of Hitler's suicide.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I see nothing cowardly in staying at your besigued Capitol and take the leader´s way out when all hope is lost. The Japanese have a great tradition in this much like Ship Captains, etc. Many leaders from ancient times up to today have done this and it was always a honorable way out. Was Cato a coward? Scipo? Brutus? Varus? Marc Anthony? C´mon.

[Die]

The highest aim of human existence is not preservation of a state, let alone a government, but the preservation of the race. I:3

The highest aim of human existence is preservation of the race?!

:rofl:

[cerberus]

I´m really bored but the broken record type of whinnings from Cerb. Coward´s way out? <sigh>
Yea , bit cheesie lets try " the last desperate act of a despondent despot. An absolute devil , delivering death to himself as the hunted , haunted ,hollow, hubris."
Bit OTT?:p
Not really Ebus. Hitler played out his hand in life in exactly this over the top manner,all came out when he attained power.
The grand parades , the remodelling of Berlin , plans for buildings which dwarfed anything built before.
Look at his military parades , party meetings , wasting millions on grand parade grounds which would only be used once a year.
banners , standards , flags - pomp and circumstance gone mad.
His generalship - nothing simple war on a scale never dreamnt off - look at his portraits of himself - he was in love with his own projected image - at last he had proved himself , he was no longer "a contender" - he was somebody and the world was going to hear from him.
Consider Kursk - "Citadel" - he called off Manstein when the moment was right to take out the salient.
He waited 4 months odd so he could have " new tanks" ( read this as new toys) to attack with.
Don't have to tell you what outcome was - hubris at his best.
So perhaps my OTT wording is not so far wrong , if we are talking about Hitler.

[cerberus]

I see nothing cowardly in staying at your besigued Capitol and take the leader´s way out when all hope is lost.
Ebus. Hitler knew the war was lost - he knew there would be no wonder weapons to save the day.
He still believed that he alone could overturn events by his own will.
Did he not say that even if Berlin was destroyed it would be easier to rebuild as he wanted it from a ruin , so he even allowed ( in his own mind) that the soviets were helping him , indirectly of course.
The leader's way out was to jump ship - he as Frank said left others to answer for him.
Said it before and will say it again , the old broken record I am afraid ;" The German people deserved better".

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Hitler believed right up to the end in some Frederich the great miracle of the west allies turning against Russia and these views were reinforced by the death of Roosevelt which brought him back to that mythos.
Regardless about how you feel about the German population deserving better or the bombs helping rebuild Berlin a la Nero after the flames, the man took no cowards way out at all. We all know what happend to the rest of the top brass at Nuremberg and even those who not even made it there. Hitler running to the Alps or South America? Nah, he did the right thing by putting that PPK to his head. Anything else would have been unstatemanwise.

How many times have we had this exchange already?

[cerberus]

Hitler believed right up to the end in some Frederich the great miracle of the west allies turning against Russia and these views were reinforced by the death of Roosevelt which brought him back to that mythos.
The gulf between reality and the world of Adolf Hitler.
Regardless about how you feel about the German population deserving better or the bombs helping rebuild Berlin a la Nero after the flames, the man took no cowards way out at all.
They did deserve better , I have no doubt of that.
The bombs a la Nero - Hitler again , not me.
We all know what happend to the rest of the top brass at Nuremberg and even those who not even made it there.
By and large the guilty got what they deserved , some - Jodl , Donitz got a rough ride.

How many times have we had this exchange already?
Probably too many and it keeps coming up.

[themistocles]

That our culture values self-preservation while our enemies value suicide seems to suggest a lesson for history. :D

[Sulla the Dictator]

I see nothing cowardly in staying at your besigued Capitol and take the leader´s way out when all hope is lost. The Japanese have a great tradition in this much like Ship Captains, etc. Many leaders from ancient times up to today have done this and it was always a honorable way out. Was Cato a coward? Scipo? Brutus? Varus? Marc Anthony? C´mon.

Hitler was a part of the modern world, not the Classical one. In the Classical world you were expected to answer for failure with your life. Here, however, he left his followers holding the bag. Particularly in light of his last days, where he blames his failures on the German people and his own Generals.

His suicide was done to avoid being 'on display', in his own words. It wasn't to atone for what he had done to Germany.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I do not agree with that at all, Hitler if anything was not a man of his time and saw it very fitting to get a wagnerian end in the world he cherished going down in flames all around him. That is along with the display thing which seeing how Nuremberg went about was a damn valid reason too although probably he would have never made that far and might have bit a cyanide capsle like Himmler was made do. Or worse, follow the example of Mussolini and end up on some gas station after surredering.
As much as one might loathe his motives to drag out the war to the bitter end he was very much coherent with his weltanschaung.

[OVERWATCH]

Not unlike what was expected of Field Marshals.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Not unlike what was expected of Field Marshals.

No...you got it wrong...Model took the cowards way out while Paulus did the right thing and became a public figure for the DDR.

[OVERWATCH]

No...you got it wrong...Model took the cowards way out while Paulus did the right thing and became a public figure for the DDR.

The Paulus situation is rather tricky,Paulus was made Field Marshall at the last minute so that the Stalingrad pocket would fight to the bitter death.

Although, in view of what was at stake it probably wasn't all that bad of a move on Hitler's part, though I'm sure Paulus (and a great many under his command) felt differently.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Pocket or no pocket, Paulus´personal surrender was a disgrace. He was not some innocent puppet doing things against his will and had been in charge of operations since Reichenau´s death. He had no problems either in living the good life in Soviet captivity writting essays and leaflets while the rest of his army starved to death in Gulags. I recall in Beevor´s Stalingrad how not few of his high officers did commit suicide or just attacked the soviets to meet a decent end.

[cerberus]

I do not agree with that at all, Hitler if anything was not a man of his time and saw it very fitting to get a wagnerian end in the world he cherished going down in flames all around him.
I would disagree - he was a product of his upbringing - a spoilt , over indulged individual with a number of chips on his shoulder.
He was more than in love with himself and that which he thought he was and aspired to be - a day dreamer.
His desire for a wagnerian departure - pure Hitler.
He did leave the nation in the lurch , I would agree that it does not make him a coward in the physical sense , but in a moral sense yes.
A statesman , no.
He was not going to fall into the Russia or Allied hands , he no doubt did not consider that he had anything to answer for apart from being defeated.
After all , who was he answerable to in life ?
Hitler did expect Paulus to kill himself , perhaps he should have waited on the promotion - what would Paulus's death have served ?
The icing on the cake of the 2 death of the heroic 6th Army ?
To serve as an instrument of Nazi propaganda ?

Although, in view of what was at stake it probably wasn't all that bad of a move on Hitler's part
It was a move which circumstance born of poor decision making made inevitable. It was not for the want of being warned of an impending disaster that 6th Army found itself in the position it did.
And to top it all Hitler expect hauser to do the exact same within a few weeks at Kharkov , a man who either could not learn from his mistakes or the sure sign of a man who had no errand commanding at any level.
Pocket or no pocket, Paulus´personal surrender was a disgrace.
His surrender at the time was not , his actions following were disloyal to his men.

[OVERWATCH]

"What hurts me most, personally, is that I still promoted him to field marshal. I wanted to give him this final satisfaction...a man like that besmirches the heroism of so many others at the last moment. He could have freed himself from all sorrow and ascended into eternity and national immortality, but he prefers to go to Moscow."

-From Hitler Directs his War

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Your cliches about Hitler bore me to death Cerb, I´m not going to rewrite the whole debate we had last time and I see nothing was learned from it either as you repeat the same stuff we went over again and again. So for you he is a coward and for me he is not...ok.

[OVERWATCH]

Your cliches about Hitler bore me to death Cerb, I´m not going to rewrite the whole debate we had last time and I see nothing was learned from it either as you repeat the same stuff we went over again and again. So for you he is a coward and for me he is not...ok.

He's actually pretty reasonable.

Regarding Hitler being a moral coward though, I have to disagree with that, because he was firmly convinced that what he was doing was right and just.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I do not agree with that at all, Hitler if anything was not a man of his time and saw it very fitting to get a wagnerian end in the world he cherished going down in flames all around him.


In an age of firebombs, atomic weapons, total war, and gas, thats not a responsible way to behave as a leader.

In fact, its insane. I don't think suicide is necessarily cowardly. However, in Hitler's case, it was inarguably childish.

The people who survived were left to answer for his crimes. And Germany suffered for his last little operetta.


That is along with the display thing which seeing how Nuremberg went about was a damn valid reason too although probably he would have never made that far and might have bit a cyanide capsle like Himmler was made do.


No one made Himmler kill himself. Just like no one made Goering do it. If Hitler had stood trial, there would have been no need to prosecute anyone but the surrounding members of his regime. For that reason, I'm a bit glad he did it. :D

But you shouldn't be. And virtually every member of the Nazi party who was in the dock at Nuremberg denounced Hitler for that act, as they felt they were being charged with his crimes.


Or worse, follow the example of Mussolini and end up on some gas station after surredering.


Thats not something Hitler would have had to worry about. Italy had more anti-fascist partisans than Germany by factors.


As much as one might loathe his motives to drag out the war to the bitter end he was very much coherent with his weltanschaung.

The Battle for Berlin was one of the most callous, self indulgant acts in human history. There's little difference between that and demanding ritual sacrifice on some sort of Aztec temple.

[cerberus]

So for you he is a coward and for me he is not...ok.
As I said Ebus . not in the physical sense - I do acknowledge his EK award in WW1. (ok?)

He did leave others to answer for him - in that sense he took the less painful option for himself.

Regarding Hitler being a moral coward though, I have to disagree with that, because he was firmly convinced that what he was doing was right and just.
88mm (Flak) - I don't doubt that in his own mind he was doing what he believed was right according to his own beliefs and values.
I look upon him as being a "coward" in the moral sense beacuse he left others to answer for his leadership and his decisions , "I was obeying orders from a higher command" has been given as a reason for what took place - the "higher command" had killed himself.
As far as being reasonable goes , I am trying to be that , Ebus. I feel is looking at it in a more rigid sense.

[cerberus]

"What hurts me most, personally, is that I still promoted him to field marshal. I wanted to give him this final satisfaction...a man like that besmirches the heroism of so many others at the last moment. He could have freed himself from all sorrow and ascended into eternity and national immortality, but he prefers to go to Moscow."

88 I think your quote underlines the reason why Hitler did promote him , Hitler spoke of "National Socialist Zeal" being needed to secure victory at Stalingrad , he expected Paulus to provide him with a national icon - his fianl duty would be that of propaganda image.
When Paulus did not have the strength of character that Hauser displayed I don't think that Hitler should have been too surprised when he didn't kill himself. (To break out when he had the chance , when instead he "did as he was told")
In fairness to Hitler I don't think that he would have been able to appreciate this - people like Model , Manstein , Hauser , Rommel , Guderian ,Zeitler even Kluge who spoke their minds and didn't simply agree were not always appreciated.
Paulus was not amongest this number.

[cerberus]

In fact, its insane. I don't think suicide is necessarily cowardly. However, in Hitler's case, it was inarguably childish.


The same point I am making , so typical of Hitler - all his talk of destiny and fate etc always focused on himself - narcisus had nothing on Hitler - when he was looking at his painting of Frederick the Great - he was in his own mind looking at himself.
If Hitler had stood trial, there would have been no need to prosecute anyone but the surrounding members of his regime.
I would disagree on this point , many knew fine well that when carying out Hitler's orders they were acting illegally - I would still have brought them to book.
No one made Himmler kill himself
And here's me inking that the "scholarly research had shown that the "devilish Brits" had murdered him.;)
The Battle for Berlin was one of the most callous, self indulgant acts in human history. There's little difference between that and demanding ritual sacrifice on some sort of Aztec temple.
Absolutely - Hitler was determined to wring the last drop of blood that he could , his departure was going to be one worthy of a Wagner " special".

[Sulla the Dictator]

Regarding Hitler being a moral coward though, I have to disagree with that, because he was firmly convinced that what he was doing was right and just.

I don't think Hitler believed in 'right' or 'just'. He simply believed in the laws of the jungle. Which is why I see his last act as a selfish one.

The entire Reich was a monument to his vanity. Hitler was unwilling to sacrifice anything for the nation he demanded so much from. Not even the slightest bit of ego, even at the end.

[infoterror]

I don't think Hitler believed in 'right' or 'just'.

Not in the moral sense, no, but in the design/architecture sense? Most assuredly.

Have you read Speer?

[Ahknaton]

Hitler was unwilling to sacrifice anything for the nation he demanded so much from.I'm not that awestruck by Hitler, but this is one of those arguments you can make about almost any leader. Churchill & Roosevelt didn't personally go ashore in the first wave leading the troops through the thick of the machine-gun fire at Normandy did they?

Edit: 1 Kilopost, w00t!

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Its a ballant lack of understanding or willfull blindness that propells people to judge Hitler suicide from their particular viewpoint on how a leader should behave. If it would have been for Hitler then no one would, or better, should have survided the sinking of the great german dream. Regardless of what today´s critics think about such views, which I might myself disagree with too, these were his views and they were coherent with the rest. Coherent with the "not one step back" Russian front commands we now find crazy, coherent with wishing for Paulus and the 6th Army a "glorious" destruction, coherent with his "City festungs" in the east fighting the red hordes in 1945, coherent with arming the Hitler youth. You might strongly disagree with this hardline view as I might disagree myself but it has nothing to do with cowardice or leaving other holding the bag. You can call it oldfashioned, even outright Classic but he sought an heroic Numantine or ending for the whole of Germany which he just could not envision existing beyond the end of the war as a sovereign national entity. I would say he fully expected Germany to be partitioned between the winners and the population driven off a la Morgenthau plan. If you do not see it from his view then there is nothing much to discuss. Why would Japanese charge bayonet point to their deaths in Okinawa? How stupid can that be..well..it was not for them as much as you disagree or would have gleefully raised your hands in a similar position.

[cerberus]

the sinking of the great german dream.
Ebus. - "the great German dream" ? A lot was done in the name of the German people which the German people didn't know about.
Concentration camps , the removal of democratic vote - I don't believe that these were part of the "Great German dream , nor do I believe that T4 was part of the Great German dream - all of these served the dreams of Adolf Hitler and underpin what a Statesman he really was.
Certainly no Bismarck.
"not one step back" Russian front commands we now find crazy, coherent with wishing for Paulus and the 6th Army a "glorious" destruction, coherent with his "City festungs" in the east fighting the red hordes in 1945, coherent with arming the Hitler youth.

Ebus. "coherent" ?
His "not one foot back" did work before Moscow - given that the gamble that he launched failed.
This order never changed with circumstances and he lacked any coherent military thinking by which he could review it in the light of changing circumstances - it become something of a " demob suit order" one size fits any ( and all circumstances) , it worked before so it will work again , " national socialist zeal" in otherwords.
This leads diretly via the Demansyk pocket to Stalingrad, " if it worked before it will work again" - no account of changing circumstances taken into account.
Not coherent , not remotely coherent to Paulus who was no "Papa" Hauser , and certainly not to any beyond his council of "yes men" (and I will exclude Jodl from that inner circle , within Hitler less than coherent decision taking process Jodl was reduced to what Richstofen described as a highly paid NCO in the pay of ( as Rundestedt said ) a Corporal.
There was nothing coheret then or now , and certainly not " glorious" about what happen 6th Army , the command structure and decision making process which brought about its destruction was incoherent , it was then and it remains so today.
The professional soldiers who saw it coming had no say , there is no "seem" about it Ebus.
His City "festrungs" made no sense then and they don't now. Do you think that holding Koingsberg to the last round would have made a difference ?
Why leave men to certain death or captivity when you can withdraw them , coherent thinking it is not.
Was his offensive in the west coherent thinking , did it really have any chance - did he know and understand the nature of the ground he ws attacking over , the actual weather conditions and the limitation they would place on his plans and time table ,the nature of his tanks in relation to the dire fuel situation - a more cohent thinker might have.
Again it was typical Hitler and his " demobed suit thinking" it worked in 1940 , it will work again , be it in a more limited scale.
The best i can say in his favour " its only a few inches on a map" - same thinking which dictated his moves in Russia.

If you do not see it from his view then there is nothing much to discuss.
The man who saw the needs of the suriving German people not to be worth consideration?
Bit like lines from "Henry V" "will bend it to our will , or break it all to pieces".
Take out "our" and insert "my" (his/ Hitler's).
How do you think the average German felt ?
Perhaps as a leader he should have considered them , a stateman might have , Hitler dismissed them- both in his battle plans for Berlin and any thought of their needs in a post war Germany.
His end was all that he considered , the end of his dream would have to be worthy of the final curtain call. As he loved to make an entrance , he would make his a worthy exit.
Why would Japanese charge bayonet point to their deaths in Okinawa?
The Japanese military still had in it a background of Bushido which when back a thousand years - feudal Japan was only a mere hundred years gone.
A brave but completely wasteful charge in the cold light of day is still a waste of life when it can hope to achieve nothing.
Hitler demanding similar from the Wehrmacht and the Hitler youth is even more incoherent and for what purpose ?

[cerberus]

Churchill & Roosevelt didn't personally go ashore in the first wave leading the troops through the thick of the machine-gun fire at Normandy did they?

Different circumstances - did Hitler go in with the first troops at Kursk ?
He didn't have to , although it would have been better for Germany that he had.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I see you have not understood anything I wrote which underscores just my point.

[cerberus]

Ebus. - which point(s) did I miss on ?

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I´m done with your chatter that ends always with T4 programs, KZs and what not. You are like a broken record month after month.

[eggheadbanga]

Its a ballant lack of understanding or willfull blindness that propells people to judge Hitler suicide from their particular viewpoint on how a leader should behave. If it would have been for Hitler then no one would, or better, should have survided the sinking of the great german dream. Regardless of what today´s critics think about such views, which I might myself disagree with too, these were his views and they were coherent with the rest. Coherent with the "not one step back" Russian front commands we now find crazy, coherent with wishing for Paulus and the 6th Army a "glorious" destruction, coherent with his "City festungs" in the east fighting the red hordes in 1945, coherent with arming the Hitler youth. You might strongly disagree with this hardline view as I might disagree myself but it has nothing to do with cowardice or leaving other holding the bag. You can call it oldfashioned, even outright Classic but he sought an heroic Numantine or ending for the whole of Germany which he just could not envision existing beyond the end of the war as a sovereign national entity. I would say he fully expected Germany to be partitioned between the winners and the population driven off a la Morgenthau plan. If you do not see it from his view then there is nothing much to discuss. Why would Japanese charge bayonet point to their deaths in Okinawa? How stupid can that be..well..it was not for them as much as you disagree or would have gleefully raised your hands in a similar position.

the Goetterdaemmerung quality of 1945 is what keeps everyone, of whatever political persuasion, fascinated by the Downfall of the Third Reich. Self-destruction, death-or-glory, to-the-last-round 'heroism' was there in spades, just as with the Japanese. The senselessness of it all (to us today) was precisely the point: self-destruction was the ultimate aim of Nazism.

Historians have long argued this. There was, some argue, an essentially operatic, choreographed quality to Hitler's strategy - he knew maybe as early as 1942 that the regime was a sinking ship, so the best thing was to take as many with them while they could. Thus the Holocaust...

Wegner, Bernd, ‘Hitler, der Zweite Weltkrieg und die Choreographie des Untergangs’, Geschichte und Gesellschaft 26, 2000, pp.493-518

Wegner, Bernd, ‘The Ideology of Self-Destruction. Hitler and the Choreography of Defeat’, German Historical Institute Bulletin, 2004 - latter available online open-access

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I would agree with the first part of your view. The second one is a bit far fetched for me. Hitler played a very tough game which he never dreamed would turn against him and his folk ultimately. He did see himself as "The choosen one" to bring Germany to the heights of European Empire of a sort which had not be seen before, not only in size but in a drastic break away from the rest of european nation worldviews about the individual, the community and its proyection towards their future. The "heroic" coat of this enterprise hung on it from start to end. It is understandable that outside viewers of this whole drama analyize this from our current morals but the man stood coherent to this aim till the end and it was a very fitting one as much as we might twich today in horror about its repercusions.

[cerberus]

I´m done with your chatter that ends always with T4 programs, KZs and what not
And believe it or not Ebus. the "what not" very much a side issue for me, but when you try to talk about a "German dream" , don't disassociate it from the nightmare which it was for others.
Goetterdaemmerung quality of 1945 is what keeps everyone, of whatever political persuasion, fascinated by the Downfall of the Third Reich.
Part of Hitler's mentality.
The Third Reich is very recent history and whilst I can understand in part where you are coming from Ebus. basically that we should look at Hitler as being coherent in the context of what he himself believed.
In doing so we can see what his aim was and how he sought to achieve it , those who "worked towards the Fuhrer" were those he left to answer for his coherent thinking.

What you discount is that Hitler set the bar for all sorts of standards which were as criminal then as they are now - his only real equal was Stalin.
How coherent was Hitler thinking and his actions / orders given the needs of the people and the effects his orders would have on them both in the short and the long term , when he would no longer be there ?
If Speer was indeed acting against Hitler in consideration of the future needs of the people it is a pity that more didn't do likewise.
Perhaps the first people to actually act in this manner were the men from Army Group Centre.

[eggheadbanga]

I would agree with the first part of your view. The second one is a bit far fetched for me. Hitler played a very tough game which he never dreamed would turn against him and his folk ultimately. He did see himself as "The choosen one" to bring Germany to the heights of European Empire of a sort which had not be seen before, not only in size but in a drastic break away from the rest of european nation worldviews about the individual, the community and its proyection towards their future. The "heroic" coat of this enterprise hung on it from start to end. It is understandable that outside viewers of this whole drama analyize this from our current morals but the man stood coherent to this aim till the end and it was a very fitting one as much as we might twich today in horror about its repercusions.

I personally don't completely agree with Wegner and the other historians who argue that NS rampage was one long kamikaze attack, because it's probably not until 1944 that the last vestiges of rationality departed from German strategy. Certainly most leading generals and politicians inside the regime didn't think all was lost until the summer of 1944. Eichmann arrived in Budapest convinced of victory in spring 1944 but left convinced of inevitable defeat. Thus, whatever crimes one attributes to the NS regime, they were committed, at the very least through to 1943, with the expectation of victory. But some, as I said, argue otherwise, that

Hitler, however, was in some ways more realistic than some of his acolytes, though he of course exuded final-victory confidence most of the time. There are traces in his utterances from 1942 onwards which indicate a growing awareness of potential defeat, i.e. a realisation that the geopolitical gamble of 1938-41 had failed. Thus the well-known outbursts (September 1942 sacking of List, etc) and rages.

Certainly also the concept of sacrifice underpinned the entire war effort from start to finish; what changed was the purposiveness of this sacrifice, in an era which obviously could endure far higher casualties than today's societies. Demyansk was probably the first completely pointless battle fought by the Germans - there was no reason whatsoever to fight on that ground. Rzhev 1942 was purposive, just as the Somme was ultimately somewhat purposive. Stalingrad was the ultimate purposive sacrificial battle - by the end, the aim was simply to draw off enemy forces to save the entire front; the sacrifice was deemed worth it strategically, which it was, temporarily.

By 1944, much of the German Army wasn't so into the idea of sacrificing itself anymore, thus the increasing flow of surrenders even on the Eastern Front. On the Western Front the Wehrmacht basically was a sieve from Normandy onwards. The Brits interrogated 29,000 German prisoners in the first 3-4 weeks of Normandy alone.

The 1945 final defense has been exalted as a 'defense of European civilisation' against the Mongol-Bolshevik hordes come raping and pillaging, but in reality the Wehrmacht simply disintegrated from January 1945 onwards. Militarily it was a sadly tawdry end, especially when compared to the skilful defensive actions on the Eastern Front in the second half of 1944. In terms of collateral damage, the continued fighting was simply horrendous for German civilians. Much of the Soviet atrocity that broke over Germany in 1945was motivated by a 'f*** you, you're still fighting, you're still trying to kill us, okay, we'll kill you back and rape your women, too' attitude that might not have been there had Germany done the strategically rational thing and stopped fighting in January, after the collapse of the Vistula front and the evident failure of the Ardennes offensive. Same thing with Dresden.

All this said, the final Battle of Berlin is still rather cool, in military terms. A remnant of a corps versus two army groups!

[Ambrosio Spinola]

It so seems most of Hitler´s view on this matter resonate in his words about how he wanted to build his public infrastructures and monuments (Nuremberg, Berlin, etc..) so that they would make very nice looking ruins in a thousand years. One is almost tempted to think hios refusal of using Sarin or Tabun as weapons were done as not to "dirty up" the "glorious" ride of the Walkires.

Btw...Good to see you back eggheadbanga :)

[eggheadbanga]

It so seems most of Hitler´s view on this matter resonate in his words about how he wanted to build his public infrastructures and monuments (Nuremberg, Berlin, etc..) so that they would make very nice looking ruins in a thousand years. One is almost tempted to think hios refusal of using Sarin or Tabun as weapons were done as not to "dirty up" the "glorious" ride of the Walkires.

Btw...Good to see you back eggheadbanga :)

why thank you. Still semi-active only tho...

The ruins theory is def. a good example of the aestheticisation of politics that was inherent to Nazism. It's almost as if Speer had read Walter Benjamin's failed Habilitationsschrift The Origins of German Tragic Drama.

I think one has to impute a streak of death-cult to Nazism as an ideology/worldview, but only a streak. It wasn't guaranteed to end in apocalypse and suicide, but it had that potential gene inside it.

This also harks back to the centrality of Hitler, in that the regime probably would have destroyed itself without him; there was no obvious successor; and given the coalition Hitler had stirred up against Germany, not much chance of needing one. Thus, the regime was incapable of reproducing itself and perpetuating itself. Soviet rule could, for a few generations, though Stalinism could scarcely be maintained past one ruler of that mindset, another one would have killed off Russia entirely.

[Richter Freisler]

VI: PERSONALITY

The racialist philosophy is basically distinguished from the Marxist philosophy by the fact that it not only recognizes the value of race, but along with it the importance of personality, which it therefore makes one of the pillars of its entire structure. These are the factors which sustain its view of life.
II:4

Thus, in principle, it embraces the basic aristocratic principle of Nature and believes in the validity of this law down to the last individual. It sees not only the different value of races, but also the different value of individual men. From the mass it extracts the importance of the person, and thus, in contrast to Marxism with its disorganizing effect, it acts in an organizing way. II:1

The Movement must promote respect for personality by every means. It must never forget that in personal worth lies the worth of everything human; that every idea and every achievement is the result of one man’s creative force, and that the admiration of greatness constitutes not only a tribute of thanks to the latter, but also casts a unifying bond around the grateful. I:12

It is not the mass that invents and not the majority that organizes or thinks, but in all things only and always the individual man, the person. II:4

... The majority can never replace the man. I:3

To renounce doing homage to a great spirit means the loss of an immense strength which emanates from the names of all great men and women. I:12

When human hearts break and human souls despair, then from the twilight of the past the great conquerors of distress and care, of disgrace and misery, of spiritual bondage and physical constraint, look down upon them and hold out their eternal hands to despairing mortals. Woe to the people that is ashamed to grasp them. I:2

[Richter Freisler]

VIII: THE ENEMY


The mightiest counterpart to the Aryan is represented by the Jew.
I:11

He is and remains the perpetual parasite, a sponger who like a noxious bacillus keeps spreading as soon as a favorable medium invites him. And the effect of his presence is also like unto that of all spongers: wherever he appears, the host people after a shorter or longer time. I:11

Existence impels the Jew to lie, and to lie perpetually, just as it compels the inhabitants of northern lands to wear warm clothing. I:11

Was there any form of filth or shamelessness, particularly in cultual life, without at least one Jew involved in it? If you cut even cautiously into such an abcess, you found—like a maggot in a rotting body often dazzled by the sudden light-a little Jew. I:2

... No one need be surprised if among our people the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew. I:11

The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength with the mass of numbers and their dead weight. Thus it denies personal worth, contests the significance of folk and race, and thereby withdraws from mankind premise for its existence and culture. As a foundation of the universe, it would lead to the end of any order intellectually conceivable to man ... If, with the help of his Marxist creed, the jew is victorious over the peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of mankind and this planet will-as it once did for millions of years-move through the ether devoid of men. I:2

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will if the Almighty Creator: by resisting the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. I:2

There can be no making pacts with the Jew, but only the hard: either-or. I:7

For a racially pure people which is conscious of its blood can never be enslaved by the Jew. In this world he will forever be master over bastards alone. I:11

[Richter Freisler]

II: RACE


All occurrences in world history are merely an expression of the racial instinct for self-preservation, in a good or bad sense.
I:11

The inner nature of peoples always determines the way in which outward influences will have an effect. What leads one to starvation will train others for hard work. I:11

That which is not of good race in this world is chaff. I:11

... The racialist world view finds the importance of mankind in its basic racial elements. On principle it views the state as but a means to an end and conceives that end to be the racial existence of man. Thus, by no means does it believe in the equality of the races, but along with their difference it recognizes their higher and lesser value and feels itself obligated, through this knowledge, to promote the victory of the better and stronger, and demand the subordination of the inferior and weaker in accordance with the eternal Will that dominates this universe. Thus, on principle, it embraces the basic aristocratic idea of Nature and believes in the validity of this law down to the last individual. ... It believes in the necessity of an idealization of mankind, which in turn it sees the sole premise for the existence of mankind. But it cannot grant the right to existence even to an ethical idea if this idea represents a danger for the racial life of the bearers of a higher ethic; for in a bastardized and negrified world all concepts of the humanly beautiful and sublime, as well as all ideas of an idealized future for mankind, would be lost forever. II:2

All great questions of the day are questions of the moment and represent merely the effects of definite causes. Only one among them all, however, possesses casual importance: the question of the racial preservation of the nation. I:12

Everything on this Earth is capable of improvement. Every defeat can become the father of a subsequent victory, every lost war the cause of a later resurgence, every hardship the fertilization of human energy; and from every oppression the forces for a new spiritual rebirth can come—as long as the blood is kept pure. I:11

The Germanic inhabitant of the American continent, who has remained racially pure and unmixed, rose to become master of the same; he will remain master as long as he does not fall victim to defilement of the blood. I:11

Sin against the blood and against the race is the original sin in this world and the end of a humanity which surrenders to it. I:10

No, there is only one holiest human right, and this right is at the same time the holiest obligation, namely: to make sure that the blood is kept pure and, by preserving the best humanity, to create the possibility of a nobler development of these beings. II:2

A racial state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape. II:2

For the will of God gave men their form, their being and their abilities. He who destroys His work declares war upon the creation of the Lord and upon the divine Will. II:10

He who dares to lay hands upon the highest image of the Lord blasphemes against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. II:1

[Ahknaton]

I: NATURE

Ultimate wisdom always consists in understanding the instinctive causes—that is: a man must never fall into the madness of believing that he has really risen to be lord and master over Nature—which is so easily induced by the conceit of half-education—but must understand the fundamental necessity of Nature’s rule, and realize how much his existence is subject to these laws of eternal combat and upward struggle. Then he will sense that in a universe where planets revolve around suns, and moons turn about planets, where force alone forever masters weakness, compelling it to be an obedient servant or else crushing it, there can be no special laws for man. For him, too, the eternal principles of this ultimate wisdom hold sway. He can try to grasp them; but escape them, never. I:10

When man tries to rebel against the iron logic of Nature, he comes into conflict with principles to which he himself owes his existence as man. And so his action against Nature must lead to his own downfall. I:11

Here too, of course, Nature can be mocked for a certain time, but her revenge will not fail to appear. It just takes time to manifest itself, or rather, it is often recognized too late by man. I:10

Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands. I:2

... This planet once moved through space for millions of years without human beings, and it can do so again some day if men forget that they owe their higher existence, not to the ideas of a few crazy ideologues, but to the knowledge and ruthless application of Nature’s iron-clad laws. I:11

... It is life alone that all things must serve. I:8
Every single word of this is true.

[Richter Freisler]

VII: EDUCATION


... The racial state must not adjust its entire educational work primarily to the infusion of mere knowledge, but to the cultivation of absolutely sound bodies. The training of mental abilities is only secondary. And here again, first consideration must be assigned to the development of character, especially the promotion of will-power and determination, combined with training in a joyful sense of responsibility—and only lastly, academic schooling.
II:2

... A man of little academic education but physically sound, with good, strong character and imbued with joyful determination and will-power, is worth more to the racial community than a clever weakling. II:2

... In the long run a sound mind can only dwell in a sound body. II:2

Loyalty, spirit of sacrifice, discretion are virtues that a great nation absolutely needs, and their cultivation and development in school are more important than some of the things which today fill up our curriculums. II:2

And so the racial state, in its educational work, must side by side with physical training place highest stress precisely on the training of character. II:2

Aside from this, it is the task of the racial state to see to it that world history is finally written from a position in which the racial question is raised to dominance. II:2

The crown of the racial state’s entire work of education and training must be to burn the racial sense and racial feeling into the instinct and intellect, into the heart and brain of the youth entrusted to it. No boy and no girl must leave school without having been led to a final realization of the necessity and essence of blood purity. II:2

[cerberus]

I´m really bored but the broken record type of whinnings from Cerb. Coward´s way out? <sigh>
That may be Ebus- but take a look at what was going on around Hitler and what he saw his priorities as being.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Every single word of this is true.

I Could not agree more with you. Thanks Richter for that part.

[Geist]

I: NATURE

Ultimate wisdom always consists in understanding the instinctive causes—that is: a man must never fall into the madness of believing that he has really risen to be lord and master over Nature—which is so easily induced by the conceit of half-education—but must understand the fundamental necessity of Nature’s rule, and realize how much his existence is subject to these laws of eternal combat and upward struggle. Then he will sense that in a universe where planets revolve around suns, and moons turn about planets, where force alone forever masters weakness, compelling it to be an obedient servant or else crushing it, there can be no special laws for man. For him, too, the eternal principles of this ultimate wisdom hold sway. He can try to grasp them; but escape them, never. I:10

This is an excellent quote, but the seperation that man has created between himself and nature is an exceptionally wide one. Hitler was also fascinated by civilisation, and thus there is a strange paradox is his melding of these dichotomies.

... It is life alone that all things must serve. I:8

If this is the case why should any man bow before Hitler or the Nazi state?

[Geist]

The purest idealism is unconsciously equivalent to the deepest knowledge.
I:11

This is vague, and bordering empty.

[Geist]

All occurrences in world history are merely an expression of the racial instinct for self-preservation, in a good or bad sense.
I:11

What about the numerous occurances of race-mixing that have occured throughout history? What of the race-mixing in the British Raj before the Mutiny, what of those in Empires who went native? His statement here is absurd on many levels.

For the will of God gave men their form, their being and their abilities. He who destroys His work declares war upon the creation of the Lord and upon the divine Will. II:10

How does Hitler know the will of God? Why did he create lesser races?

[Geist]

... The racial state must not adjust its entire educational work primarily to the infusion of mere knowledge, but to the cultivation of absolutely sound bodies. The training of mental abilities is only secondary. And here again, first consideration must be assigned to the development of character, especially the promotion of will-power and determination, combined with training in a joyful sense of responsibility—and only lastly, academic schooling.

Not bad, but has potential to create drones.

... A man of little academic education but physically sound, with good, strong character and imbued with joyful determination and will-power, is worth more to the racial community than a clever weakling. II:2

Perhaps, but who will create your buildings, do your taxes, create your bombs, cure your diseases, interpet your laws...not the weak in mind.


Loyalty, spirit of sacrifice, discretion are virtues that a great nation absolutely needs, and their cultivation and development in school are more important than some of the things which today fill up our curriculums. II:2

I agree.

[WFHermans]

All occurrences in world history are merely an expression of the racial instinct for self-preservation, in a good or bad sense.
I:11
What about the numerous occurances of race-mixing that have occured throughout history?
The jews have been promoting the racemixing of other races for their own self-preservation.

[Geist]

In the British Raj circa 1890?