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Thinker
02-13-2007, 05:59 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html

February 12, 2007
Believing Scripture but Playing by Science’s Rules
By CORNELIA DEAN

KINGSTON, R.I. — There is nothing much unusual about the 197-page dissertation Marcus R. Ross submitted in December to complete his doctoral degree in geosciences here at the University of Rhode Island.

His subject was the abundance and spread of mosasaurs, marine reptiles that, as he wrote, vanished at the end of the Cretaceous era about 65 million years ago. The work is “impeccable,” said David E. Fastovsky, a paleontologist and professor of geosciences at the university who was Dr. Ross’s dissertation adviser. “He was working within a strictly scientific framework, a conventional scientific framework.”

But Dr. Ross is hardly a conventional paleontologist. He is a “young earth creationist” — he believes that the Bible is a literally true account of the creation of the universe, and that the earth is at most 10,000 years old.

For him, Dr. Ross said, the methods and theories of paleontology are one “paradigm” for studying the past, and Scripture is another. In the paleontological paradigm, he said, the dates in his dissertation are entirely appropriate. The fact that as a young earth creationist he has a different view just means, he said, “that I am separating the different paradigms.”

He likened his situation to that of a socialist studying economics in a department with a supply-side bent. “People hold all sorts of opinions different from the department in which they graduate,” he said. “What’s that to anybody else?”

But not everyone is happy with that approach. “People go somewhat bananas when they hear about this,” said Jon C. Boothroyd, a professor of geosciences at Rhode Island.

In theory, scientists look to nature for answers to questions about nature, and test those answers with experiment and observation. For Biblical literalists, Scripture is the final authority. As a creationist raised in an evangelical household and a paleontologist who said he was “just captivated” as a child by dinosaurs and fossils, Dr. Ross embodies conflicts between these two approaches. The conflicts arise often these days, particularly as people debate the teaching of evolution.

And, for some, his case raises thorny philosophical and practical questions. May a secular university deny otherwise qualified students a degree because of their religion? Can a student produce intellectually honest work that contradicts deeply held beliefs? Should it be obligatory (or forbidden) for universities to consider how students will use the degrees they earn?

Those are “darned near imponderable issues,” said John W. Geissman, who has considered them as a professor of earth and planetary sciences at the University of New Mexico. For example, Dr. Geissman said, Los Alamos National Laboratory has a geophysicist on staff, John R. Baumgardner, who is an authority on the earth’s mantle — and also a young earth creationist.

If researchers like Dr. Baumgardner do their work “without any form of interjection of personal dogma,” Dr. Geissman said, “I would have to keep as objective a hat on as possible and say, ‘O.K., you earned what you earned.’ ”

Others say the crucial issue is not whether Dr. Ross deserved his degree but how he intends to use it.

In a telephone interview, Dr. Ross said his goal in studying at secular institutions “was to acquire the training that would make me a good paleontologist, regardless of which paradigm I was using.”

Today he teaches earth science at Liberty University, the conservative Christian institution founded by the Rev. Jerry Falwell where, Dr. Ross said, he uses a conventional scientific text.

“We also discuss the intersection of those sorts of ideas with Christianity,” he said. “I don’t require my students to say or write their assent to one idea or another any more than I was required.”

But he has also written and spoken on scientific subjects, and with a creationist bent. While still a graduate student, he appeared on a DVD arguing that intelligent design, an ideological cousin of creationism, is a better explanation than evolution for the Cambrian explosion, a rapid diversification of animal life that occurred about 500 million years ago.

Online information about the DVD identifies Dr. Ross as “pursuing a Ph.D. in geosciences” at the University of Rhode Island. It is this use of a secular credential to support creationist views that worries many scientists.

Eugenie C. Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, a private group on the front line of the battle for the teaching of evolution, said fundamentalists who capitalized on secular credentials “to miseducate the public” were doing a disservice.

Michael L. Dini, a professor of biology education at Texas Tech University, goes even further. In 2003, he was threatened with a federal investigation when students complained that he would not write letters of recommendation for graduate study for anyone who would not offer “a scientific answer” to questions about how the human species originated.

Nothing came of it, Dr. Dini said in an interview, adding, “Scientists do not base their acceptance or rejection of theories on religion, and someone who does should not be able to become a scientist.”

A somewhat more complicated issue arose last year at Ohio State University, where Bryan Leonard, a high school science teacher working toward a doctorate in education, was preparing to defend his dissertation on the pedagogical usefulness of teaching alternatives to the theory of evolution.

Earle M. Holland, a spokesman for the university, said Mr. Leonard and his adviser canceled the defense when questions arose about the composition of the faculty committee that would hear it.

Meanwhile three faculty members had written the university administration, arguing that Mr. Leonard’s project violated the university’s research standards in that the students involved were being subjected to something harmful (the idea that there were scientific alternatives to the theory of evolution) without receiving any benefit.

Citing privacy rules, Mr. Holland would not discuss the case in detail, beyond saying that Mr. Leonard was still enrolled in the graduate program. But Mr. Leonard has become a hero to people who believe that creationists are unfairly treated by secular institutions.

Perhaps the most famous creationist wearing the secular mantle of science is Kurt P. Wise, who earned his doctorate at Harvard in 1989 under the guidance of the paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould, a leading theorist of evolution who died in 2002.

Dr. Wise, who teaches at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., wrote his dissertation on gaps in the fossil record. But rather than suggest, as many creationists do, that the gaps challenge the wisdom of Darwin’s theory, Dr. Wise described a statistical approach that would allow paleontologists to infer when a given species was present on earth, millions of years ago, even if the fossil evidence was incomplete.

Dr. Wise, who declined to comment for this article, is a major figure in creationist circles today, and his Gould connection appears prominently on his book jackets and elsewhere.

“He is lionized,” Dr. Scott said. “He is the young earth creationist with a degree from Harvard.”

As for Dr. Ross, “he does good science, great science,” said Dr. Boothroyd, who taught him in a class in glacial geology. But in talks and other appearances, Dr. Boothroyd went on, Dr. Ross is already using “the fact that he has a Ph.D. from a legitimate science department as a springboard.”

Dr. Ross, 30, grew up in Rhode Island in an evangelical Christian family. He attended Pennsylvania State University and then the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology, where he wrote his master’s thesis on marine fossils found in the state.

His creationism aroused “some concern by faculty members there, and disagreements,” he recalled, and there were those who argued that his religious beliefs should bar him from earning an advanced degree in paleontology.

“But in the end I had a decent thesis project and some people who, like the people at U.R.I., were kind to me, and I ended up going through,” Dr. Ross said.

Dr. Fastovsky and other members of the Rhode Island faculty said they knew about these disagreements, but admitted him anyway. Dr. Boothroyd, who was among those who considered the application, said they judged Dr. Ross on his academic record, his test scores and his master’s thesis, “and we said, ‘O.K., we can do this.’ ”

He added, “We did not know nearly as much about creationism and young earth and intelligent design as we do now.”

For his part, Dr. Ross says, “Dr. Fastovsky was liberal in the most generous and important sense of the term.”

He would not say whether he shared the view of some young earth creationists that flaws in paleontological dating techniques erroneously suggest that the fossils are far older than they really are.

Asked whether it was intellectually honest to write a dissertation so at odds with his religious views, he said: “I was working within a particular paradigm of earth history. I accepted that philosophy of science for the purpose of working with the people” at Rhode Island.

And though his dissertation repeatedly described events as occurring tens of millions of years ago, Dr. Ross added, “I did not imply or deny any endorsement of the dates.”

Dr. Fastovsky said he had talked to Dr. Ross “lots of times” about his religious beliefs, but that depriving him of his doctorate because of them would be nothing more than religious discrimination. “We are not here to certify his religious beliefs,” he said. “All I can tell you is he came here and did science that was completely defensible.”

Steven B. Case, a research professor at the Center for Research Learning at the University of Kansas, said it would be wrong to “censor someone for a belief system as long as it does not affect their work. Science is an open enterprise to anyone who practices it.”

Dr. Case, who champions the teaching of evolution, heads the committee writing state science standards in Kansas, a state particularly racked by challenges to Darwin. Even so, he said it would be frightening if universities began “enforcing some sort of belief system on their graduate students.”

But Dr. Scott, a former professor of physical anthropology at the University of Colorado, said in an interview that graduate admissions committees were entitled to consider the difficulties that would arise from admitting a doctoral candidate with views “so at variance with what we consider standard science.” She said such students “would require so much remedial instruction it would not be worth my time.”

That is not religious discrimination, she added, it is discrimination “on the basis of science.”

Dr. Dini, of Texas Tech, agreed. Scientists “ought to make certain the people they are conferring advanced degrees on understand the philosophy of science and are indeed philosophers of science,” he said. “That’s what Ph.D. stands for.”

Petr
02-13-2007, 06:17 AM
People like Pissy Myers are such worthless little bullies. We must make sure that scumbags like him will lose their influence on society.

It is very clear that creationists, ID'ers and just about all opponents of dogmatic materialist paradigm suffer from institutional discrimination in today's academia (and are also subjected to systematic defamation by the mass media).

Evolutionist hypocrites took over the establishment by chanting the mantra of "free inquiry" - and now they want to push away that ladder, in order to never lose their prestigious position.


http://telicthoughts.com/creationist-earns-phd-gets-attacked-by-scientists/#more-1316


Creationist earns Ph.D., gets attacked by scientists

by Krauze


A young-earth creationist has received a doctoral degree in geoscience, and some scientists are already demanding that his degree should be taken away from him. The owner of the Ph.D. is named Marcus Ross, and his dissertation was about the abundance and spread of mosasaurs, marine reptiles that, as he wrote, vanished at the end of the Cretaceous era about 65 million years ago. Although his thesis advisor describes his work as "impeccable", some have "argued that his religious beliefs should bar him from earning an advanced degree in paleontology", according to the New York Times (subscription required).

The article cites Michael L. Dini, a professor of biology at Texas Tech University, who got into hot water in 2003, when he denied writing letters of recommendation to students who rejected the evolution of humans, regardless of the students' grades. According to him, scientists "ought to make certain the people they are conferring advanced degrees on understand the philosophy of science and are indeed philosophers of science. That's what Ph.D. stands for."

That's an odd complaint. Dr. Ross wrote an impeccable dissertation that the University of Rhode Island thought merited a Ph.D. Does professor Dini think that you can just breeze through a doctoral education without understanding the subject? At what university did he take his degree, and can I go there?

News of Marcus Ross' degree also reached the ears of Paul Z. Myers, a professor of biology at University of Minnesota, Morris. On his blog, Pharyngula, he calls Ross a "trained parrot" and wants the university to "review their doctoral programs". Of course, he doesn't specify exactly which steps the university should have taken to prevent this travesty to be inflicted on Science. Should Marcus Ross have been forced to sign a statement, pledging eternal loyalty to Evolution and an Old Earth? Should he have undergone a polygraph test, ensuring that he didn't harbor any counter-consensus ideas? Myers think that Ross carrying out research he didn't agree with justifies labelling him a "fraud":

He was doing "research" on the distribution of mosasaurs 65 million years ago, but what he was actually doing was echoing ideas he disagreed with to fit the expectations of his advisors - he was a complete fraud.

Is that how Myers think you get a doctoral degree? Just by "echoing ideas"? As for Ross not believing the statements about millions of years from his own dissertation, that's the beauty of science - it doesn't matter whether you believe in it or not. As long as Ross' data and arguments hold up, it doesn't matter one bit what his beliefs are.

Is it a coincidence that Myers wants to force creationists to advocate their creationist beliefs in their scientific work? After all, he is also the one who thinks that researchers who are friendly towards intelligent design should be denied tenure. So if you privately have a telic perspective on the origin of life, you're a fraud, and if you openly advocate this perspective, you will be denied tenure. Head I wins, tail you lose.

Don't forget, PZ Myers and Michael Dini are both scientists. Or, as you also call them, peer reviewers.

Petr
02-13-2007, 06:41 AM
http://www.intelligentdesign.fi/2007/02/12/valitettavaa-vainoa/#more-122


From David Southwell's Secrets & Lies: Exposing the World of Cover-ups and Deception:

http://www.amazon.ca/Secrets-Lies-David-Southwell/dp/1844424944/sr=1-5/qid=1171352480/ref=sr_1_5/701-0103027-1537964?ie=UTF8&s=books


“The quickest way to commit professional suicide in today’s scientific world is to challenge any aspect of Darwinism. The theory is so entrenched as the bedrock of all biological and zoological science that anyone who examines it is attacked with a frightening degree of professional hostility” He adds that he believes evolution is true but that “elements of Darwinian’s theory of mutation combining with natural selection appear to be flawed”

He then gives several examples of suppression. One is as follows:

An example of the suppression of any scientists who questions any aspect of Darwinian theory is that of British biologist Warwick Collins. In 1976 he wrote a paper on sexual selection as an anomaly in Darwinian theory. As he was about to speak at an international conference to explain his paper, renowned geneticist Professor Maynard Smith stood up and attacked Collins in front of the audience. He told him that he would use his influence to block publication of any further papers he wrote. Smith seems to have been true to his word as Collins continues to have his papers rejected for publication for no reason” (Page 89).

Petr
02-13-2007, 07:01 AM
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/02/unnatural_selection_ms_dean_in_1.html#more


Un-natural Selection: Ms. Dean Invites Us to Justify Academic Discrimination


In Monday's New York Times ("Believing Scriptures but Playing by Science's Rules"), Cornelia Dean joins Eugenie Scott of the Darwin lobby NCSE (National Center for Science Education) in raising the tantalizing thought that (as "some say") maybe scientists who have earned legitimate doctorates in scientific fields, but are known to hold private views that question Darwinism, should be denied their professional degrees. Take that in: Perhaps doctoral candidates whose personal views deviate from an ideological party line should be punished professionally. Presumably, if they are in a later stage in their career, you can thwart their application for tenure; or later still, a promotion to full professor.

This has long been suggested by firebrand Darwinists, such as those attending the "Beyond Belief" conclave in San Diego late last year. Now it is posed coyly as an open question on the news pages of the New York Times.

Corny Dean, from my experience, decides on her own what terms--and science standards--mean. For example, "creationism" in the Dean Lexicon is a totally flexible term that embraces without distinction people who support intelligent design and those who support a Young Earth. Dean knows the difference in common usage, but she isn't about to let the readers in on it. For her the pejorative terminology carries too much ideological advantage to let mere accuracy, let alone nuance, intervene.

She likewise wields the word "fundamentalist" as a club against anyone who is religious and also questions Darwinism. This, her editors, if they consult their own style book, know is a misuse. Even at the New York Times you are not supposed to call people "fundamentalists" unless that is what they call themselves. Ms. Dean apparently makes her own rules.

Dean is adroit enough to report the views of a few academics who resist persecuting colleagues for their personal beliefs. But she clearly comes down on the side of redefining the responsibility of scholarship in a way that serves her purposes. Why not discriminate against students and professors suspected of religious or anti-Darwinian views? After all, she concludes, citing Eugenie Scott, "fundamentalists who capitalize on secular credentials to 'mis-educate the public' were doing a disservice."

A fine Orwellian sentiment, isn't it? You can now lose your hard earned doctoral degree for "doing a disservice" in the eyes of some Eugenie Scott or Cornelia Dean at Hale-Bopp U or Quark College. This is like the other euphemism one discovers at tenure time, "lack of collegiality," which really means "we don't like the person's views."

Copy the Times article from the paper's website (they won't let us reprint it here) and send it to your friends. It is a keepsake for the day when the history of academic discrimination in this era is written.

Posted by Bruce Chapman on February 13, 2007 12:50 AM

HrodbertPalatinus
02-13-2007, 07:27 AM
The totalitarian impulse always lies behind the materialistic progressivists and this-worldly chiliasts. It's a psychological law. That's why the West is becoming dangerous nowadays.

Insidium
02-13-2007, 06:57 PM
If he does good work in geology, then let him do good work in geology. However, I am sure that part of the reason for the reaction is embarrassment to accept into their ranks someone who firmly believes in the much more popular equivalent of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.

Steppenwolf
02-13-2007, 07:06 PM
The totalitarian impulse always lies behind the materialistic progressivists and this-worldly chiliasts.
I agree with you, and in turn you shall agree with me that the religious culture was, at the apex of its power, no less totalitarian and absolutist.

Insidium
02-13-2007, 07:43 PM
I agree with you, and in turn you shall agree with me that the religious culture was, at the apex of its power, no less totalitarian and absolutist.

How many creationists have been sentenced to jail or executed for a charge analogous to blasphemy?

Steppenwolf
02-13-2007, 09:17 PM
How many creationists have been sentenced to jail or executed for a charge analogous to blasphemy?
Why should we expect different cultures to exert similar punishments? In fact, the Scientific culture tends to rehabilitate, hegemonize rather than punish. Both can be equally absolutist; only their manner in dealing with deviation differs (and in my opinion, rehabilitation is far more terrible).

Wodan
02-13-2007, 09:25 PM
I think everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint, including 'Bible Believers'.

However, the main sticking point I have with 'Believers' of any creed, is why do always expect their 'Beliefs' to come out of the pocket of ordinary people ?

Kodos
02-13-2007, 10:47 PM
Is he an IDer or a real young earth creationist...

Theres a big diffrence.

Keystone
02-13-2007, 11:14 PM
Is he an IDer or a real young earth creationist...

Theres a big diffrence.
Not really that much difference. Not so much different than the evolution faithful.

No on really knows how or why we got here, so everybody should just shut up.

More important things going on.

Kodos
02-13-2007, 11:59 PM
Not really that much difference. Not so much different than the evolution faithful.

No on really knows how or why we got here, so everybody should just shut up.

More important things going on.

Young earth creationism has damning fossil record and radiocarbon evidence against it.

Keystone
02-14-2007, 12:08 AM
Young earth creationism has damning fossil record and radiocarbon evidence against it.
What did I just say?

Who cares? What if we all came from a caramel crumb cake? We're still all just here. I don't get the fascination over what might or might not have been.

Kodos
02-14-2007, 12:16 AM
What did I just say?

Who cares? What if we all came from a caramel crumb cake? We're still all just here. I don't get the fascination over what might or might not have been.

Some fancy ourselves amateur scientists and natural philosophers and want to understand the universe.

Vainity certainly, but without it we'd still be living in caves.

Keystone
02-14-2007, 12:27 AM
Some fancy ourselves amateur scientists and natural philosophers and want to understand the universe.
Ya, but so much wasted energy goes into this sort of thing. Plus, these arguments are populated with mostly snide jagoffs who suck the life out of things.
Vainity certainly, but without it we'd still be living in caves.
Practical things came from necessity, I would think. Not wondering about God.

In other news...Pittsburgh is encased in ice....:mad:

Kodos
02-14-2007, 12:39 AM
Ya, but so much wasted energy goes into this sort of thing. Plus, these arguments are populated with mostly snide jagoffs who suck the life out of things.

Your opinion.

Practical things came from necessity, I would think. Not wondering about God.

In other news...Pittsburgh is encased in ice....:mad:

God is just one subject. Necessity and a dumbass won't come up with anything.

Keystone
02-14-2007, 12:43 AM
Your opinion.
LOL. On this forum? This can be Jagoff Central.
God is just one subject. Necessity and a dumbass won't come up with anything.
What I'm saying is, progress never depended on people arguing about unprovable things from the past.

Insidium
02-14-2007, 12:49 AM
Why should we expect different cultures to exert similar punishments? In fact, the Scientific culture tends to rehabilitate, hegemonize rather than punish. Both can be equally absolutist; only their manner in dealing with deviation differs (and in my opinion, rehabilitation is far more terrible).

It comes with the territory. The original comparison was between the totalitarianism and absolutism of the modern scientific establishment and that of the Catholic Church (when it wielded a great amount of power in Europe). Execution, torture, and imprisonment are certainly factors in judging how totalitarian something is. Any of the aforementioned methods are far more totalitarian than mere intellectual boycott.

Why do you think rehabilitation is worse, and what exactly do you mean by that?

Insidium
02-14-2007, 12:54 AM
Not really that much difference. Not so much different than the evolution faithful.

No on really knows how or why we got here, so everybody should just shut up.

More important things going on.

The "evolution faithful" are approaching the question of the diversity of life on earth from a scientific perspective: attempting to model systems quantitatively and effectively. This is a different thing from religious faith. Quit throwing fuel on the bonfire of ignorance.Taking a defeatist position likes yours is pathetic, and disrupting the thread with it is obnoxious.

Keystone
02-14-2007, 01:02 AM
The "evolution faithful" are approaching the question of the diversity of life on earth from a scientific perspective: attempting to model systems quantitatively and effectively. This is a different thing from religious faith. Quit throwing fuel on the bonfire of ignorance.Taking a defeatist position likes yours is pathetic, and disrupting the thread with it is obnoxious.
What does this have to do with anything constructive or useful?
I've already said, I don't care how things came to be, we're all just stuck here with more immediate problems.

Petr
02-14-2007, 01:19 AM
Execution, torture, and imprisonment are certainly factors in judging how totalitarian something is. Any of the aforementioned methods are far more totalitarian than mere intellectual boycott.
Modern secularism (at least in its Western, liberal form) knows that Machiavellian art of ruling with an iron fist in a silken glove. Or, metaphorically speaking, suffocating its victims silently with a pillow instead of noisily quartering them in public.

This passive-aggressive oppression allows the subject population to entertain the illusion that they have real freedom, but great minds like Goethe know better:

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."


Petr

Insidium
02-14-2007, 04:18 AM
Alright, I'll take that over torture any day. I believe that the best way to combat the harmful, truth-stifling rhetoric of religion and its pseudo-scientific synonyms (creationism, ID) is to exclude them entirely from the realm of actual intellectual and scientific discourse. Of course, their power over the realm of the layman is much greater, since the ignorant and superstitious prefer a comfortable fairy tale over hard, often tedious quantitative analysis.

Steppenwolf
02-15-2007, 07:33 AM
It comes with the territory. The original comparison was between the totalitarianism and absolutism of the modern scientific establishment and that of the Catholic Church (when it wielded a great amount of power in Europe). Execution, torture, and imprisonment are certainly factors in judging how totalitarian something is. Any of the aforementioned methods are far more totalitarian than mere intellectual boycott.
I disagree. Execution, torture and imprisonment are different ways to deal with social deviance. The most effective weapon is, by far, rehabilitation (in fact it could only be employed by the most structured and complex societies, as Durkheim argued, albeit, as a progressive liberal, in a positive tone). It seems that this tendency to be concerned with physical over the mental, the material over the ideological, is only a current idiosyncrasy. I myself give more value to the latter.

Why do you think rehabilitation is worse, and what exactly do you mean by that?
Execution or other 'primitive' ways (like banishment) are more honourable. They at least accept the individual as he is. "You have your own ideas, but you and your ideas cannot be tolerated here, and will die or suffer accordingly." On the other hand, rehabilitation distinguishes the self from its ideas, as if they are two seperate things, and proceeds to instill in the self new ideas (which it calls 'truth'). I would argue that I am nothing without my ideological manifestations, and the moment I cannot live to them is the moment I fall, however 'romantic' this is.

Petr
02-15-2007, 07:43 AM
I disagree. Execution, torture and imprisonment are different ways to deal with social deviance. The most effective weapon is, by far, rehabilitation (in fact it could only be employed by the most structured and complex societies, as Durkheim argued, albeit, as a progressive liberal, in a positive tone).
Doesn't Michel Foucault also deal with more sophisticated ways post-Enlightenment societies suffocate dissidence and "asocial elements"?


Discipline & Punish

Panopticism

http://foucault.info/documents/disciplineAndPunish/foucault.disciplineAndPunish.panOpticism.html

The symbol of totalitarian "illumination/enlightenment" is that all-seeing, Sauronesque Masonic eye at the top of the pyramid...


Petr

Steppenwolf
02-15-2007, 07:48 AM
Doesn't Michel Foucault also deal with more sophisticated ways post-Enlightenment societies suffocate dissidence and "asocial elements"?
Yes, and I agree with him.

Insidium
02-15-2007, 07:36 PM
I disagree. Execution, torture and imprisonment are different ways to deal with social deviance. The most effective weapon is, by far, rehabilitation (in fact it could only be employed by the most structured and complex societies, as Durkheim argued, albeit, as a progressive liberal, in a positive tone). It seems that this tendency to be concerned with physical over the mental, the material over the ideological, is only a current idiosyncrasy. I myself give more value to the latter.

Perhaps this is correlated with a decrease in adherence to religion? After all, as the social paradigm changes from a religious to a secular/enlightened one, life becomes sacred (since it ceases to be eternal after death), and punishments become less cruel.

The main problem I see with equating the level of totalitarianism and disputing merely the form that totalitarianism takes is that the term becomes difficult to quantify. Furthermore, as far as I understand, totalitarianism is considerably more specific than merely "dealing with social deviance."

Micaelis
02-15-2007, 09:21 PM
The "evolution faithful" are approaching the question of the diversity of life on earth from a scientific perspective: attempting to model systems quantitatively and effectively.

Until evolution is proven into natural law, its scope and magnitude should be debated. That is the whole purpose of science. Evolutionism is unscientific in that respect. It resembles moreso the dogmas of religion.

Insidium
02-15-2007, 11:04 PM
Until evolution is proven into natural law, its scope and magnitude should be debated. That is the whole purpose of science. Evolutionism is unscientific in that respect. It resembles moreso the dogmas of religion.

You are spouting misconceptions. Science never proves anything. Proof is something reserved for logic and mathematics. Science models. A scientific model (synonymous to "theory") is one that correlates with observational data. As more data is acquired, the model is expanded, modified, or revised as is necessary. Of course, if there is considerable over-complication (addition of ad hoc principles) and failure on the part of the theory, it is often abandoned for a new theory. This process is usually gradual, though.

Review these two links please:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law#Origin_of_laws_of_nature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

There are no legitimately scientific objections to evolution: it is capable of explaining a vast amount of data that otherwise would make little sense; it explains why life is so diverse (and for this reason, I consider it aesthetically appealing); and it is falsifiable in thousands of different ways. I am willing to bet that the majority of your objections to evolution are born from misconceptions, but if you think you've got something particularly critical, then I'd be curious to survey it.

Micaelis
02-15-2007, 11:16 PM
You need to reread my statement in a more sober state, Insidium.

Insidium
02-16-2007, 12:58 AM
I re-read it several times. Perhaps you should restate it?

Also, I challenge the claim that its dogmas are like religious ones:
1. it is naturalistic, just like every other scientific theory out there
2. there is no holy text or promises of eternal salvation
3. it is descriptive, and based on observation, not prescriptive
4. as any good scientific theory, it has undergone vast modifications since its advent

As of right now there is no evidence that exists to counter evolution, and thus no need for doubt. Specific details (such as taxonomic groupings, selection factors, etc.) are often disputed, but the overall framework has not encountered any incorrigible counter-evidence.

Micaelis
02-16-2007, 01:21 AM
I re-read it several times. Perhaps you should restate it?

From wikipedia:

"Scientists object to the terms evolutionism and evolutionist because the -ism and -ist suffixes accentuate belief rather than scientific study."

This holds for creationism as well. I have no problem with evolutionary thought, or the notion that change does occur in an organism as a natural outgrowth, which adapts it more suitably to its habitat. The problem is the role of the system itself in relation to the explanation of the flux principle in general. In that field of study, evolution is largely inadequate and is being taken up instead by recent developments and theories of quantum physics, which is able to analyse change on a molecular level.

What I'm trying to say, Insidium, is that evolution is adequate to explain only certain phenomena and, as a consequence "evolutionism" as a blanket theory has been rejected by modern science.

Petr
02-16-2007, 03:51 AM
As of right now there is no evidence that exists to counter evolution, and thus no need for doubt.
This is a typically dogmatic, true-believer statement. There is lots of potential evidence to counter evolution, and only a fanatic would even try to deny that.

(More sophisticated, less propagandistic evolutionists are not spouting nonsense like "evolution is as proven as gravity".)

Darwinism in its present paradigm may be de jure falsifiable, but it happens to be de facto infalsifiable, as all its competitors have been a priori disqualified! Nice sophistic trick.

As pointed out in here:


Michael Ruse muttered to me darkly several years ago that Dawkins seems not to understand that this argument makes evolution by natural selection true by necessity -- hardly a happy position for any putatively empirical theory to be in.

... Turns out however that for Dawkins evidence isn't finally decisive. Indeed evidence does not count at all, in the end. Only those explanations that begin with primal physical simplicity, such as natural selection, can possibly serve as real theories. Design loses, no matter what.

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15942&highlight=nagel


Petr

Petr
02-16-2007, 03:54 AM
Specific details (such as taxonomic groupings, selection factors, etc.) are often disputed, but the overall framework has not encountered any incorrigible counter-evidence.
That reminds me:

http://www.creationism.org/csshs/v09n4p09.htm


Looking at another point, Paul K. Feyerabend expresses doubts about the 'essential scepticism' that Horton holds to be characteristic of science. The average scientist, as far as Feyerabend is concerned[10], has a much more 'closed' attitude than is commonly believed. Quite like the 'primitive', the average scientist keeps scepticism to a minimum as...

"...it is directed against the view of the opposition and against minor ramifications of one's own ideas, never against the basic ideas themselves. Attacking the basic beliefs evokes taboo reactions which are no weaker than are the taboo reaction in so-called primitive societies." [11]


As any impartial observer can easily see, many evolutionists do indeed display hysterical taboo reactions when their sacred cows are threatened.


Petr

Insidium
02-17-2007, 03:51 AM
What I'm trying to say, Insidium, is that evolution is adequate to explain only certain phenomena and, as a consequence "evolutionism" as a blanket theory has been rejected by modern science.

I believe that the concept has far more potential to explain/model phenomena outside of merely biology, though I was arguing for the validity of the theory of evolution as it is understood in that field. Daniel Dennett provides a compelling account of free will in Freedom Evolves. Cosmic evolution is the most likely scenario for the origin of galaxies, solar systems, etc. Evolutionary psychology is also an immensely promising field. What is the problem, and how has science rejected it?

Petr, please try to read my posts more carefully.

Micaelis
02-17-2007, 06:31 AM
I believe that the concept has far more potential to explain/model phenomena outside of merely biology, though I was arguing for the validity of the theory of evolution as it is understood in that field.

Ok. I don't really have a problem with biological evolution.

Daniel Dennett provides a compelling account of free will in Freedom Evolves.

Freedom is a metaphysical concept that I do not intellectually uphold. I think that the "will" (which is really an aggregate of forces) is best explained by schizoanalysis, which has been taken up by quantum psychology.

Cosmic evolution is the most likely scenario for the origin of galaxies, solar systems, etc.

I don't think that there is a scenario at all. And it's too early to tell. We are still exploring dark space. I'm going to order a couple of books on physical cosmology tomorrow.

Evolutionary psychology is also an immensely promising field.

Evolutionary psychology is able to explain survival instinct effectively. Beyond that it fails to produce any results.

What is the problem, and how has science rejected it?

The concensus of modern science does not accept evolutionism. However, it does not deny the process of evolution in species.

Steppenwolf
02-17-2007, 07:29 AM
Perhaps this is correlated with a decrease in adherence to religion? After all, as the social paradigm changes from a religious to a secular/enlightened one, life becomes sacred (since it ceases to be eternal after death), and punishments become less cruel.
While I agree with your statement that certain religions totally devalue life, I do not think that the decrease in religious adherence has contributed positively in that aspect. It seems to me that the lifestyle which substituted religion has, by rendering the material into the metaphysical (the economy and entertainment, for example), furthered this process of devaluation.

The main problem I see with equating the level of totalitarianism and disputing merely the form that totalitarianism takes is that the term becomes difficult to quantify. Furthermore, as far as I understand, totalitarianism is considerably more specific than merely "dealing with social deviance."
I guess so, but I have not specified otherwise.

Steppenwolf
02-17-2007, 07:52 AM
I wish to participate in the argument on evolution, but first I need to know what people mean by 'evolutionism' and 'darwinism'.

Darwinism in its present paradigm may be de jure falsifiable, but it happens to be de facto infalsifiable, as all its competitors have been a priori disqualified! Nice sophistic trick.
The scientific method is in itself infalsifiable. It is based on certain assumptions: materialism and casuality for example. It is unfair to reject Darwin's theory of natural selection, without bothering to reject science as a whole.

Insidium
02-18-2007, 02:25 AM
San Rosello, based on what I read on the wikipedia page for evolutionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionism), it seems to primarily be a slur that creationists use. The article also does not deal with cosmic evolution.

Also, it does not say that science has refuted evolutionism, merely that the term has been applied to sociological evolution lately.

The scientific method is in itself infalsifiable. It is based on certain assumptions: materialism and casuality for example. It is unfair to reject Darwin's theory of natural selection, without bothering to reject science as a whole.

Do you reject science as a whole on those premises?

Steppenwolf
02-18-2007, 08:29 AM
Do you reject science as a whole on those premises?
No. I am a scientist myself. Those premises do not necessarily make science false - it is true if one accepts those axioms.

Insidium
02-18-2007, 09:41 PM
No. I am a scientist myself. Those premises do not necessarily make science false - it is true if one accepts those axioms.

In what field do you practice?

Steppenwolf
02-19-2007, 03:12 PM
Mechanical engineering..

Also, it does not say that science has refuted evolutionism, merely that the term has been applied to sociological evolution lately.
Yes, although even biological evolution is grossly misunderstood by being thought of as a destined necessity. One common argument creationists spout, "why haven't apes evolved further?", shows that evolution is being thought of in this manner, and not only by creationists.

Insidium
02-20-2007, 04:44 AM
Yes, although even biological evolution is grossly misunderstood by being thought of as a destined necessity. One common argument creationists spout, "why haven't apes evolved further?", shows that evolution is being thought of in this manner, and not only by creationists.

Indeed, but biological evolution is not teleological. Apes are genetically adapted to their environments just like we are, just like mosquitoes are. We have simply taken a different evolutionary path than they have, but it is incorrect to claim that we are more "evolved."

Micaelis
02-20-2007, 07:31 AM
San Rosello, based on what I read on the wikipedia page for evolutionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionism), it seems to primarily be a slur that creationists use. The article also does not deal with cosmic evolution.

Also, it does not say that science has refuted evolutionism, merely that the term has been applied to sociological evolution lately.

Faith has no place in science. That means religious or material faith. A hypothesis, however, does have a place in the scientific method, although a hypothesis cannot be turned into an ideology. Evolution as an hypothesis in the cosmic or psychological fields is valid and scientific. Evolution as an ideology in the cosmic and psychological fields is not.