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limit
12-08-2005, 02:36 AM
Check this out: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0520_030520_chimpanzees.html


The results suggested that within important sequence stretches of these functionally significant genes, humans and chimps share 99.4 percent identity. (Some previous DNA work remains controversial. It concentrated on genetic sequences that are not parts of genes and are less functionally important, said Goodman.)

Now, how on earth is this possible if humans and chimps differ by two chromosomes, in addition to what makes them... humans, or chimps?

Assuming completely identical DNA, and 46 versus 48 chromos, then the similarity would be roughly 94% (93.6?)

And to compound matters: the HGP claiming 24 chromosomes for humans: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/project/info.shtml

DNA in the human genome is arranged into 24 distinct chromosomes--physically separate molecules that range in length from about 50 million to 250 million base pairs. A few types of major chromosomal abnormalities, including missing or extra copies or gross breaks and rejoinings (translocations), can be detected by microscopic examination. Most changes in DNA, however, are more subtle and require a closer analysis of the DNA molecule to find perhaps single-base differences.

Now, 2 x 24=48, no?

Assuming that humans have 2 sex chromosomes (xx, xy), and 44 others, [b]how on earth could there be '24 distinct chromosomes'? There should be 23 (an x is an x)

:(

Péter
12-08-2005, 03:15 AM
Goddamnit not this again... :rolleyes:

22 autosomes + X + Y = 24 disparate chromosomes

Read the context clues. In what you highlighted it says "within important sequence stretches of these functionally significant genes, humans and chimps share 99.4 percent identity". They do not share 99.4 percent identity. Humans and chimps share 99.4 percent identity only among the "the important sequence stretches" of genes which exhibit the ability to function, i.e., DNA which actually codes for something.

daisy
12-08-2005, 03:37 AM
we each have two sets of 23 chromosomes with a total of about three billion base pairs per set. each set consists of 22 autosomes plus one sex chromosome; thus there are 24 distinct chromosomes -- one female (X), one male (Y) and 22 autosomes.
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/project/herac2.shtml2 sets each with one sex chromosome would equal 2 sex chromosomes
22 autosomes + 2 sex chromosomes=24

limit
12-08-2005, 11:45 PM
Lo and behold: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html



Genetic Blueprints
To map the chimp genome, researchers used DNA from the blood of a male common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) named Clint, who lived at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. Clint died last year from heart failure at the relatively young age of 24. A comparison of Clint's genetic blueprints with that of the human genome shows that our closest living relatives share 96 percent of our DNA. The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.

This says nothing about selected sequences. It is true that in selected sequences, a very high degree of similarity is found.

Check this out: http://www.broad.mit.edu/news/links/chimp-backgrounder.html

At the DNA level, the human and chimpanzee genomes are almost 99% identical at the DNA bases where the two genomes align to each other. By taking into account the insertions and deletions that have occurred in each species since their divergence from a common ancestor ~5 to 6 million years ago, they still share 96% of their sequence.

So in other words, this claims 96% genetic similarity across the genome, not selected sequences where a higher degree of similarity is found.

I say: how is there then a 96% similarity across the genome, if it truly is 46 vs. 48 chromosomes?

limit
12-09-2005, 02:15 AM
I have a problem. Unlikely as it may sound, I am sure (have seen) data claiming large populations with 48 chromosomes, yet I only have the links I have to prove this. One asset in my favour is a proportion of links claiming roughly a 96% similarity as regards humans vs. chimpanzees, without reference to 'selected streches of DNA, likely the whole genmome compared.

(I did stuff up as regards the sex chromoosomes though :p. One think i will say is that the mother ALWAYS passes on an X, which might mean 1 autosome, x or y, and I will look into this. ;))

limit
03-02-2006, 12:46 AM
I have a question. If there are indeed 2 sex chromosomes, then what makes the 46th x in women a sex chromosome? The Y is passed down from father to son, yet I have yet to read anywhere that this is the case as regards the womans 46th x.

I say there is one sex chromosome, the male Y.

limit
03-02-2006, 12:58 AM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html


A comparison of Clint's genetic blueprints with that of the human genome shows that our closest living relatives share 96 percent of our DNA. The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.

A whole-genome comparison: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html


Genome sequencing and assembly

We sequenced the genome of a single male chimpanzee (Clint; Yerkes pedigree number C0471; Supplementary Table S1 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html)), a captive-born descendant of chimpanzees from the West Africa subspecies Pan troglodytes verus, using a whole-genome shotgun (WGS) approach19, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B19)20 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B20). The data were assembled using both the PCAP and ARACHNE programs21, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B21)22 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B22) (see Supplementary Information (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html) 'Genome sequencing and assembly' and Supplementary Tables S2−S6 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html)). The former was a de novo assembly, whereas the latter made limited use of human genome sequence (NCBI build 34)23, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B23)24 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B24) to facilitate and confirm contig linking. The ARACHNE assembly has slightly greater continuity (Table 1 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#t1)) and was used for analysis in this paper. The draft genome assembly—generated from http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif3.6-fold sequence redundancy of the autosomes and http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif1.8-fold redundancy of both sex chromosomes—covers http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif94% of the chimpanzee genome with >98% of the sequence in high-quality bases. A total of 50% of the sequence (N50) is contained in contigs of length greater than 15.7 kilobases (kb) and supercontigs of length greater than 8.6 megabases (Mb). The assembly represents a consensus of two haplotypes, with one allele from each heterozygous position arbitrarily represented in the sequence.

What's this?:


Genome-wide rates. We calculate the genome-wide nucleotide divergence between human and chimpanzee to be 1.23%, confirming recent results from more limited studies12, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B12)33, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B33)34 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B34). The differences between one copy of the human genome and one copy of the chimpanzee genome include both the sites of fixed divergence between the species and some polymorphic sites within each species. By correcting for the estimated coalescence times in the human and chimpanzee populations (see Supplementary Information (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html) 'Genome evolution'), we estimate that polymorphism accounts for 14−22% of the observed divergence rate and thus that the fixed divergence is http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif1.06% or less.

A divergence of 1.23% is only possible of the chromosome number is identical, or else the minimum difference is roughly 94%, assuming identical DNA.

Ahknaton
03-02-2006, 10:46 AM
A slightly out-there New Agey view of this:

According to Drunvalo Melchezedek (http://www.drunvalo.net/), our planet is covered with geometrically constructed 'morpho genetic grids'. These grids extend from about 60 feet under the Earth's surface to about 60 miles above the Earth, arranged in geometric patterns (see 'Sacred Geometry'). Each species has its own grid, which supports life, and connects the consciousness of its particular species. Before any species can come into existance or make an evolutionary step, a new grid must be completed. When a species becomes extinct, that particular species' grid dissoves.

A new grid was completed in 1989 - the 'christ-consciousness' grid. This grid will allow humans to evolve into our next version. We'll develop two additional chromosomes (which are really 'geometrical images' designed to resonate with our specific grid) for a total or 46 + 2.

The main change will be a shift to the "unity consciousness". Every cell in your body has its own consciousness and memory. You, the higher being that occupies your body, make the millions of different consciousnesses in your body work together as one being. How does this relate to this grid? Think of yourself as a cell and the grid as the higher being. We will still have individual consciousness, but will be united in the form of a higher being in order to work as one entity.

"There are three totally different kinds of humans on the Earth, meaning that they perceive the One reality in three different ways, interpreted differently. The first kind of human has a chromosome composition of 42+2. They comprise a unity consciousness that does not see anything outside themselves as being separate from themselves. To them, there is only one energy - one life, one beingness that moves everywhere. Anything happening anywhere is within them, as well. They are like cells in the body. They are all connected to a single consciousness that moves through all of them. These are the aboriginals in Australia. There might be a few African tribes left like this. Then, there is our level, comprising 44+2 chromosomes. We are a disharmonic level of consciousness that is used as a steppingstone from the 42+2 level to the next level, 46+2...These two additional chromosomes change everything."

Tool 46 And 2 Lyrics

Shedding skin and
I've been picking
Scabs again.
I'm down
Digging through
My old muscles
Looking for a clue.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own confused
And insecure delusions
For a piece to cross me over
Or a word to guide me in.
I wanna feel the changes coming down.
I wanna know what I've been hiding in

My shadow.
Change is coming through my shadow.
My shadow's shedding skin
I've been picking
My scabs again.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own chaotic
And insecure delusions.

I wanna feel the change consume me,
Feel the outside turning in.
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and
Cleansing I've endured within

My shadow
Change is coming.
Now is my time.
Listen to my muscle memory.
Contemplate what I've been clinging to.
Forty-six and two ahead of me.

I choose to live and to
Grow, take and give and to
Move, learn and love and to
Cry, kill and die and to
Be paranoid and to
Lie, hate and fear and to
Do what it takes to move through.

I choose to live and to
Lie, kill and give and to
Die, learn and love and to
Do what it takes to step through.

See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me.

limit
03-02-2006, 11:00 AM
Sub-saharan africans have the most genetic diversity of all 'humans', just as there is more genetic variation within a single chimpanzee troop than within the entire human species. This seems to point towards, and is confirmed by genetic evidence, that Homo Sapiens originated in africa. The genetic diveristy present in sub-saharan africans is not new, and is caused by the retention of older archaic genes, going back to Homo Erectus.

The lowest average IQ scores are found in sub-saharans, along with a large proportion of small crania, as well as obvious ape-like facial characteristics.

quote=Ahkenaton


SPAM

Ahkenaton, please challenge what I have just demontrated above, or else, you possibly posess 48 chromosomes.

Do you have any comprehension of maths at all?

limit
03-02-2006, 11:02 AM
If there are large populations with 48 chromosomes, which is indeed possible, as I have demonstrated above, then the holocaust will be nothing compared to what might come.

Ahkenaton, I have a question. If you have 46 chromosomes, and comparable intelligence to myself, then how is it that there is a greater than roughly 94% similarity between so-called humans, and chimpanzees with 48 chromosomes?

Ahknaton
03-02-2006, 11:17 AM
A divergence of 1.23% is only possible of the chromosome number is identical, or else the minimum difference is roughly 94%, assuming identical DNA.Don't you mean the maximum similarity? Also:

New chromosomes are not created out of brand new material, they are splittings & lengthenings of existing chromosomes. So assuming that one of the autosomes splits in half, you could have 2 extra chromosomes but still have identical DNA.

Also, there are several different methods for measuring genetic distance, so comparing percentages across different studies with differing methodologies may not be meaningful.
SPAM
I say it's not spam, but a relevent popular culture reference to this (supposed) phenomenon.
If there are large populations with 48 chromosomes, which is indeed possible, as I have demonstrated above, then the holocaust will be nothing compared to what might come.You are a bizzare individual.

limit
03-02-2006, 11:18 AM
You never understood one bit of it, in addition to being incorrect in your response.

Read it again: http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2065

Ahknaton
03-02-2006, 11:21 AM
You never understood one bit of it, in addition to being incorrect in your response.
The substance of your post was dealt with convincingly in post #2 by vaszoly.

limit
03-02-2006, 11:24 AM
The substance of your post was dealt with convincingly in post #2 by vaszoly.

I dealt with Vaszoly convincingly with this:

A whole-genome comparison: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture04072.html (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html)


Quote:
Genome sequencing and assembly

We sequenced the genome of a single male chimpanzee (Clint; Yerkes pedigree number C0471; Supplementary Table S1 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html)), a captive-born descendant of chimpanzees from the West Africa subspecies Pan troglodytes verus, using a whole-genome shotgun (WGS) approach19, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B19)20 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B20). The data were assembled using both the PCAP and ARACHNE programs21, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B21)22 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B22) (see Supplementary Information (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html) 'Genome sequencing and assembly' and Supplementary Tables S2−S6 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html)). The former was a de novo assembly, whereas the latter made limited use of human genome sequence (NCBI build 34)23, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B23)24 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B24) to facilitate and confirm contig linking. The ARACHNE assembly has slightly greater continuity (Table 1 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#t1)) and was used for analysis in this paper. The draft genome assembly—generated from http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif3.6-fold sequence redundancy of the autosomes and http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif1.8-fold redundancy of both sex chromosomes—covers http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif94% of the chimpanzee genome with >98% of the sequence in high-quality bases. A total of 50% of the sequence (N50) is contained in contigs of length greater than 15.7 kilobases (kb) and supercontigs of length greater than 8.6 megabases (Mb). The assembly represents a consensus of two haplotypes, with one allele from each heterozygous position arbitrarily represented in the sequence.

What's this?:


Quote:
Genome-wide rates. We calculate the genome-wide nucleotide divergence between human and chimpanzee to be 1.23%, confirming recent results from more limited studies12, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B12)33, (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B33)34 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/full/nature04072.html#B34). The differences between one copy of the human genome and one copy of the chimpanzee genome include both the sites of fixed divergence between the species and some polymorphic sites within each species. By correcting for the estimated coalescence times in the human and chimpanzee populations (see Supplementary Information (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v437/n7055/suppinfo/nature04072.html) 'Genome evolution'), we estimate that polymorphism accounts for 14−22% of the observed divergence rate and thus that the fixed divergence is http://www.nature.com/__chars/math/special/sim/black/med/base/glyph.gif1.06% or less.


Notice the words 'Whole genome comparison'

:p :222:

Ahknaton
03-02-2006, 11:27 AM
Assuming that humans have 2 sex chromosomes (xx, xy), and 44 others, [b]how on earth could there be '24 distinct chromosomes'? There should be 23 (an x is an x)
Each person has 46 chromosomes, made up of 23 chromosome pairs.

22 of these pairs are autosomes, i.e. 2 slightly different versions of the same chromosome (one from each parent), so that's 22 "distinct chromosomes" so far.

There are 2 other distinct chromosomes, the X and the Y, making a total of 24 distinct chromosomes in a male (XY) and 23 distinct chromosomes in a female (XX).

What more is there to say?

limit
03-02-2006, 11:33 AM
Each person has 46 chromosomes, made up of 23 chromosome pairs.

22 of these pairs are autosomes, i.e. 2 slightly different versions of the same chromosome (one from each parent), so that's 22 "distinct chromosomes" so far.

There are 2 other distinct chromosomes, the X and the Y, making a total of 24 distinct chromosomes in a male (XY) and 23 distinct chromosomes in a female (XX).

What more is there to say?

Ignoring the chimp/human similarity thing, what makes the womans 45th X an autosome? I am aware that what makes the male Y a chromosome is that this is passed down from father to son, in an unbroken lineage.

Is this the case for the womans 45th and 46th X's?

Not that I'm aware of. There is cause for me to state the male Y is the only sex chromosome. It's also the chromosome on which the SRY gene is present, which turns a fetus male. I am not aware of any corresponding female gene similar, so one might say all fetuses are by default female, unless the SRY gene kicks in.

The mother to my knowledge only has an unbroken lineage going back only in mitichondrial DNA. Look it up, if you don't believe me.

Ahknaton
03-02-2006, 11:40 AM
Ignoring the chimp/human similarity thing, what makes the womans 45th X an autosome?
It's NOT an autosome. It's a sex chromosome. It's the 22 pairs of non-sex chromosomes that are the autosomes.
I am aware that what makes the male Y an autosome is that this is passed down from father to son, in an unbroken lineage.
The Y chromosome is not an autosome, it's a sex chromosome.
Is this the case for the womans 45th and 46th X's?
They are both sex chromosomes, one from the mother and one from the father.
Not that I'm aware of. There is cause for me to state the male Y is the only autosome.
It's not an autosome.
It's also the chromosome on which the SRY gene is present, which turns a fetus male. I am not aware of any corresponding female gene similar, so one might say all fetuses are by default female, unless the SRY gene kicks in. The mother to my knowledge only has an unbroken lineage going back only in mitichondrial DNA. Look it up, if you don't believe me.
These facts are both correct, but doesn't change the fact that neither the X or Y chromosomes are autosomes.

Why don't you look up the definition of autosome (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2406)

limit
03-02-2006, 11:45 AM
On this point, you are indeed correct, though this does not disprove my thesis: http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:autosome

If I had termed the autosomes X, and the sex chromosome Y, I still could have demontrated what I have.

And to prove my point I will go back and edit the posts to reflect this.

:D

limit
03-02-2006, 11:50 AM
It's almost equivalent to claiming victory in a debate as a result of spelling mistakes.

:p

In the end, it was a sorry, tragic tale. He lost from start to finish.

:222:

Ahknaton
03-02-2006, 11:54 AM
It's almost equivalent to claiming victory in a debate as a result of spelling mistakes.

:p
There's no need to turn this into a hostile argument. I'm just trying to clarify terms here.

limit
03-02-2006, 11:55 AM
That's ok. Maybe I have something to contribute. ;)

limit
03-03-2006, 03:56 AM
Nobody has thusfar disproven my thesis.

It seems there are indeed large populations with 48 chromosomes :p

limit
03-04-2006, 11:37 AM
An article I found:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2160


Chimp and human genomes vary by only 1.3 per cent and only a tiny fraction of this actually affects genes. The new research shows how variation in the amount of product of a gene may be as significant to our recent evolution as structural changes.

As I've said, 98.7% similarity across the genome is only possible of the chromosome number is the same. If not, the minimum difference of 48 vs. 46 is roughly 94%.

Get out your calculator and check for yourself.

Ahknaton
03-04-2006, 11:44 AM
As I've said, 98.7% similarity across the genome is only possible of the chromosome number is the same. If not, the minimum difference of 48 vs. 46 is roughly 94%.

Get out your calculator and check for yourself.
You are assuming that each chromosome is the same size (i.e. contains the same amount of genetic information), which is not necessarily the case.

limit
03-04-2006, 11:49 AM
Are you suggesting that humans have unusually large chromosomes? Or that chimps have unusually small chromosomes?

Which one?

Ahknaton
03-04-2006, 12:19 PM
Are you suggesting that humans have unusually large chromosomes? Or that chimps have unusually small chromosomes?

Which one?
Neither. I am saying that the chromosomes within a cell (be it human or chimp) are not the same size. Therefore x out of y chromosomes doesn't equal x/y of the genome.

limit
03-04-2006, 12:22 PM
Clever boy.

Helios Panoptes
03-04-2006, 07:16 PM
Clever boy.


Forrest, I think you knew the error of your ways all along. Am I right?

limit
03-05-2006, 01:14 AM
He didn't prove that humans have unusually large chromosomes, of that chimps have unusually small ones. What he did was speculate that one or the other was the case.

And when he responded 'neither' was the case, then what he said inadvertently was that the chromosomes must be the same size.

limit
09-26-2009, 11:45 AM
Check this out: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0520_030520_chimpanzees.html



Now, how on earth is this possible if humans and chimps differ by two chromosomes, in addition to what makes them... humans, or chimps?

Assuming completely identical DNA, and 46 versus 48 chromos, then the similarity would be roughly 94% (93.6?)

And to compound matters: the HGP claiming 24 chromosomes for humans: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/project/info.shtml



Now, 2 x 24=48, no?

Assuming that humans have 2 sex chromosomes (xx, xy), and 44 others, [b]how on earth could there be '24 distinct chromosomes'? There should be 23 (an x is an x)

:(

Ender, the answer is not exactly this, though related-not chimps necissarily, men and women possess the same amount of DNA when siblings. The DNA, which at some point or points a single joined strand, has separated differently, giving and impression of X vs. x, or X and y in common terms. I don't know exactly, though this might also be applicable to some extent 'chimpanzees'.

klipgeit
09-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Goddamnit not this again... :rolleyes:

22 autosomes + X + Y = 24 disparate chromosomes

Read the context clues. In what you highlighted it says "within important sequence stretches of these functionally significant genes, humans and chimps share 99.4 percent identity". They do not share 99.4 percent identity. Humans and chimps share 99.4 percent identity only among the "the important sequence stretches" of genes which exhibit the ability to function, i.e., DNA which actually codes for something.

Thanks,but what about those with 47 chromosomes Goddamnit.(rose)