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tempus fugit
02-20-2007, 04:01 PM
My daughter is writing a report on Arthur Miller's The Crucible, which was Miller's response to the McCarthy era.

I'd like her to NOT regurgitate the typical line about how awful McCarthy was, etc., and instead look more honestly at the times.

What are your thoughts about the Senator and his actions?

WFHermans
02-20-2007, 04:08 PM
It is a good idea to expell foreign agents from your government. Joe McCarthy was right.

Dr. Gutberlet
02-20-2007, 04:14 PM
McCarthy was a man to be admired. Blacklisting communist-sympathising subversives is a GOOD thing. He didn't go far enough IMO.

tempus fugit
02-20-2007, 04:16 PM
Glad you guys agree!

Carlos Danger
02-20-2007, 11:17 PM
Didn't he accuse the US Army of being run by communists?

Zubenelgenubi
02-20-2007, 11:46 PM
Didn't he accuse the US Army of being run by communists?
As I recall, that's what did him in in the end.

Daniel Shays
02-20-2007, 11:53 PM
Tell her to mention his corrupt homosexual jewish aide, Roy Cohn.

Kodos
02-20-2007, 11:53 PM
My daughter is writing a report on Arthur Miller's The Crucible, which was Miller's response to the McCarthy era.

I'd like her to NOT regurgitate the typical line about how awful McCarthy was, etc., and instead look more honestly at the times.

What are your thoughts about the Senator and his actions?

McCarthy was right generally (as VENONA proved) but personally corrupt. Make sure she mentions VENONA in detail.

Nixon was the true man of integrity on the HUAC and Watergate was all about payback for him being right about Alger Hiss.

il ragno
02-21-2007, 12:09 AM
Without McCarthyism, post-WW2 Jewish planetary domination would have been a fait accompli by 1960. Tailgunner Joe helped stave it off a good 20-25 years or so.

kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman
02-21-2007, 12:12 AM
Joe McCarthy I hear was quite inaccurate in his accusations. He accused a lot of people of being communist who really weren't communist.

Obviously, some massive libeler and defamer isn't a man to be looked up to.

Thomas777
02-21-2007, 12:15 AM
Joe McCarthy I hear was quite inaccurate in his accusations. He accused a lot of people of being communist who really weren't communist.

Obviously, some massive libeler and defamer isn't a man to be looked up to.

Was Alger Hiss some sort of anomaly in your opinion?

Its interesting that nobody talks about 'Morgenthauism' with respect to many thousands of people who were persecuted for sedition or interned during WWII on account of dubious evidence of pro-Axis sympathies.

Kodos
02-21-2007, 12:16 AM
Without McCarthyism, post-WW2 Jewish planetary domination would have been a fait accompli by 1960. Tailgunner Joe helped stave it off a good 20-25 years or so.

The overlap between jews and the left isn't 100%.

Thomas777
02-21-2007, 12:19 AM
The overlap between jews and the left isn't 100%.

Do you know why Roy Cohn was appointed as special counsel?

Kodos
02-21-2007, 12:20 AM
Was Alger Hiss some sort of anomaly in your opinion?

Its interesting that nobody talks about 'Morgenthauism' with respect to many thousands of people who were persecuted for sedition or interned during WWII on account of dubious evidence of pro-Axis sympathies.

Well relative to the Orwellian reign of terror (and unlike WWII Germany didn't declare war on us here) Woodrow Wilson instituted during the 1st world war it was nothing.

Pro nazi people are so eager to skewer FDR and the jews they miss that the real villain of American history were Wilson and his "progressives".

Kodos
02-21-2007, 12:20 AM
Do you know why Roy Cohn was appointed as special counsel?

He and McCarthy were both gay (unfortunately)...

If Cohn was part of some deliberate jewish conspiracy thing he went far selling it, he was the prosecutor who sent the Rosenbergs to the chair.

Thomas777
02-21-2007, 12:51 AM
He and McCarthy were both gay (unfortunately)...

If Cohn was part of some deliberate jewish conspiracy thing he went far selling it, he was the prosecutor who sent the Rosenbergs to the chair.

I have never seen any evidence that McCarthy was gay.

You are also missing the issue RE: Cohn.

Kodos
02-21-2007, 03:29 AM
I have never seen any evidence that McCarthy was gay.

You are also missing the issue RE: Cohn.

Wikipedia (I haven't read any detailed books on the subject of McCarthy, ive read books which go over him) says he was indeed selected to avoid any appearance of anti semitism.

It also says the alternative he got promoted in front of was Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy would have been worse then Cohn as im convinced that Bobby Kennedy (with Ted) was a secret communist himself.

Hartmann von Aue
02-21-2007, 03:40 AM
McCarthyism is what you get when the elites of the country have rigged the system so that the "solid South" and much of the Fr. Coughlin audience end up voting for someone who appoints Communist spies to some of the highest positions in government.

McCarthy WAS RIGHT.

But the implications of that go far beyond the fact that many high government officials were agents of Stalin and members of the CPUSA.

He was exposing the secret attitudes, lies and hypocrisy that underlie the American system of government.

And of course, in doing so, one cannot avoid exposing the Jewish power.

Kodos
02-21-2007, 03:41 AM
Of course McCarthy was right VENONA proved it.

Jake Featherston
02-21-2007, 07:55 AM
McCarthy was just about the greatest American of the post-Second World War era.

Sulla the Dictator
02-21-2007, 07:56 AM
Its interesting that nobody talks about 'Morgenthauism' with respect to many thousands of people who were persecuted for sedition or interned during WWII on account of dubious evidence of pro-Axis sympathies.


Ummm.....why would they talk about "Morgenthauism"?

Berianidze
02-21-2007, 12:39 PM
McCarthy was nothing more than an opportunist. The belief that all the people he accused were communists or communist sympathizers is absurd--if that many government officials were in fact communists that would've led to enough influential individuals to probably throw a successful putsch. Clearly he tried to take advantage of a political climate consumed in paranoia surrounding the Cold War. It ended up nowhere in the long-run, as he became isolated and politically ostracized for his actions.

Dr. Gutberlet
02-21-2007, 01:52 PM
McCarthy was nothing more than an opportunist. The belief that all the people he accused were communists or communist sympathizers is absurd--if that many government officials were in fact communists that would've led to enough influential individuals to probably throw a successful putsch. Clearly he tried to take advantage of a political climate consumed in paranoia surrounding the Cold War. It ended up nowhere in the long-run, as he became isolated and politically ostracized for his actions.

Possibly, but at least the lives of several liberal pieces of Hollywood trash were never the same afterwards! That is a glorious achievement in itself.

ironweed
02-21-2007, 01:59 PM
Some of the more bizarre things he did, like hounding that dentist in the reserves, don't even make sense. Was he implanting secret microphones in the fillings or something?

In sum, I'm not saying there weren't Communist infiltrators, but I doubt McCarthy could've caught them if they'd had hammer and sickles tatooed on their foreheads. He was about as inept as they come.

ironweed
02-21-2007, 02:02 PM
Possibly, but at least the lives of several liberal pieces of Hollywood trash were never the same afterwards! That is a glorious achievement in itself.

Actually the Hollywood types that spoke about Communist infiltration voluntarily were far more penalized in the long run. They'd stepped off the preserve, so to speak.

Edit: I'm afraid I get confused between HUAC and and what McCarthy did in the Senate. I know Ayn Rand actually spoke before HUAC, not the Senate. Not sure where the ones who spoke voluntarily did most of their testimony. There might be no McCarthy connection here.

Rakhmetov
02-21-2007, 09:03 PM
McCarthy's claims had no credibility because there had never been widespread support for communism in America. Run of the mill Republicans and Democrats alike whether they be Truman or Eisenhower were brazenly anti-communist. It was the provocative "Truman Doctrine" after all which started the Cold War.

Perhaps such claims would be plausible in France and Italy where communists have been mega popular; communists in these countries at one point took well over 25 percent of the vote in elections. But in America such is just a fantasy. It was McCarthy's type of demagoguery which was responsible for the disastrous, murderous wars in Korea and Vietnam.

Starr
02-21-2007, 10:38 PM
McCarthy was nothing more than an opportunist. The belief that all the people he accused were communists or communist sympathizers is absurd--if that many government officials were in fact communists that would've led to enough influential individuals to probably throw a successful putsch. Clearly he tried to take advantage of a political climate consumed in paranoia surrounding the Cold War. It ended up nowhere in the long-run, as he became isolated and politically ostracized for his actions.


People like this are going to have a tendency to become somewhat paranoid, which will lead them to go overboard and this will eventually end up harming what may be(and in this case, very much was)a good and neccessary cause.

Today McCarthyism is out and political correctness is in. The ideas and motivations behind both, are quite obviously, the difference between night and day, but the methods used against those who are targeted are very similar.

Alfacritical
02-21-2007, 11:00 PM
It was the provocative "Truman Doctrine" after all which started the Cold War.

Evidence?

It was McCarthy's type of demagoguery which was responsible for the disastrous, murderous wars in Korea and Vietnam.
Evidence?

Berianidze
02-21-2007, 11:22 PM
Possibly, but at least the lives of several liberal pieces of Hollywood trash were never the same afterwards! That is a glorious achievement in itself.
I don't care one bit about liberal Hollywood trash who like to discuss Marx at cocktail parties. These are not communists. I sympathize more with the communists in the 1910's, 20's, and 30's who were arrested - ordinary working people who spoke against imperialism and were imprisoned for advocacy - not conspiracy, of Marxist philosophy.

Keystone
02-21-2007, 11:36 PM
I don't care one bit about liberal Hollywood trash who like to discuss Marx at cocktail parties. These are not communists. I sympathize more with the communists in the 1910's, 20's, and 30's who were arrested - ordinary working people who spoke against imperialism and were imprisoned for advocacy - not conspiracy, of Marxist philosophy.
Such is your romantic view. You'll grow out of it.

Rakhmetov
02-22-2007, 02:13 AM
Evidence?

With the Truman Doctrine the U.S. regime vowed to take any steps to prevent alleged but unsubstantiated Soviet interference in the world. This is of course what the Cold War was about: competition between the two superpowers. It was the Truman Doctrine which initiated this competition and the so-called "Marshall Plan" which employed blackmail, coercion, and neo-colonialism cloaked as "economic reconstruction". It was NATO which once again brought about polarizing military alliances that had destroyed Europe in the world wars.

People like McCarthy blasted Truman for "losing" China. In other words, he agitated for intervention in order to suppress national liberation movements. Korea and Vietnam took place due to McCarthy's demagoguery and the fabricated "communist threat".

Alfacritical
02-22-2007, 02:53 AM
It was the Truman Doctrine which initiated this competition and the so-called "Marshall Plan" which employed blackmail, coercion, and neo-colonialism cloaked as "economic reconstruction".

Evidence?

It was NATO which once again brought about polarizing military alliances that had destroyed Europe in the world wars.

Is one pole sufficient to polarize? What was the purpose of the Berlin wall?

Thomas777
02-22-2007, 03:32 AM
Ummm.....why would they talk about "Morgenthauism"?

Gee I dunno, Sulla. Why would anybody talk about "McCarthyism"? Both notions seem a little bit absurd, now don't they?

Jake Featherston
02-22-2007, 04:28 AM
It was McCarthy's type of demagoguery which was responsible for the disastrous, murderous wars in Korea and Vietnam.

The Vietnam War was largely caused by the failure of the State Department diplomats to convince Lyndon Johnson that China and the Soviet Union were two separate nations with distinct national interests, not one unified Communist bloc. Had Johnson listened to his diplomats on that score, he would have never taken the conflict in Vietnam seriously; Johnson was the last President to believe that ludicrous fiction, fortunately.

Jake Featherston
02-22-2007, 04:31 AM
Such is your romantic view. You'll grow out of it.

Indeed. When you take the sort of scum that dominates our liberal democratic capitalist system today, and put them in charges of an ostensibly socialist system, that is a Communist state. People like Jane Fonda will always matter more than Samuel Gompers in a status quo of that degenerate nature.

Berianidze
02-22-2007, 01:30 PM
Such is your romantic view. You'll grow out of it.
I do not consider myself a romantic idealist in any way, shape, or form. While I do not question the reasoning behind the state's interests in arresting and jailing many of these people -- I do sympathize with them. If anything, arresting them gives their message more credence. That's why Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr. later changed his position on arresting people for political thought because he felt that by throwing them in jail treated them as a threat, whereas he believed that in the "market-place of ideals" - objective truth always triumphs. The bourgeois state will always protect the interests of the bourgeoisie, regardless of how it contradicts the constitutional principles it holds so dear.

Sulla the Dictator
02-22-2007, 09:33 PM
Gee I dunno, Sulla. Why would anybody talk about "McCarthyism"? Both notions seem a little bit absurd, now don't they?

Probably because McCarthy actually lead the charge to purge Communists from the US government. A public, self declared role. Can you explain how Henry Morgenthau is similar to McCarthy?

Thomas777
02-22-2007, 09:49 PM
Probably because McCarthy actually lead the charge to purge Communists from the US government. A public, self declared role. Can you explain how Henry Morgenthau is similar to McCarthy?

I don't think that they are similar.

The point I was making was that McCarthy was not some delusional, rogue lunatic who terrorized hapless souls in bad faith. The GOP during the Truman administration was justifiably concerned about the Soviet intelligence apparatus and its ability to subvert the United States government, and when McCarthy was appointed to chair the Permanent SubComitte on Investigations, he opted to make national security and counter-espionage a priority.

McCarthy excelled at making enemies and he ran afoul of military interests...and in the 1950s, the United States Army was probably the most powerful interest group in America. That is what did in Joe McCarthy. Roy Cohn was also a loose cannon.

Court historians like to pretend that 'McCarthyism' was some insidious evil that was foisted upon America by McCarthy and McCarthy alone...and that concerns about Communist espionage in Government were not substantiated by probable cause. They also like to pretend that the Rosenbergs were framed, despite the fact that they were convicted of espionage after being afforded Due Process of law and were found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Suggesting these sorts of things is analagous to me claiming that the Axis powers were not attempting to subvert and sabotage the US war effort between 1941-45 and that claims to the contrary merely reflect a Jewish-Communist conspiracy launched by Frankfurter, Morgenthau, and other members of Roosevelt's inner circle.

Sulla the Dictator
02-22-2007, 09:57 PM
I don't think that they are similar.

The point I was making was that McCarthy was not some delusional, rogue lunatic who terrorized hapless souls in bad faith. The GOP during the Truman administration was justifiably concerned about the Soviet intelligence apparatus and its ability to subvert the United States government, and when McCarthy was appointed to chair the Permanent SubComitte on Investigations, he opted to make national security and counter-espionage a priority.

McCarthy excelled at making enemies and he ran afoul of military interests...and in the 1950s, the United States Army was probably the most powerful interest group in America. That is what did in Joe McCarthy. Roy Cohn was also a loose cannon.

Court historians like to pretend that 'McCarthyism' was some insidious evil that was foisted upon America by McCarthy and McCarthy alone...and that concerns about Communist espionage in Government were not substantiated by probable cause. They also like to pretend that the Rosenbergs were framed, despite the fact that they were convicted of espionage after being afforded Due Process of law and were found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


Well lets not go overboard. There actually IS a problem with McCarthyism in that it was often extra-legal. And though the Venona transcripts reveal some people to be Communist agents, it by no means reveals ALL targets of McCarthy to have been such. So I don't believe in letting McCarthy skate.


Suggesting these sorts of things is analagous to me claiming that the Axis powers were not attempting to subvert and sabotage the US war effort between 1941-45 and that claims to the contrary merely reflect a Jewish-Communist conspiracy launched by Frankfurter, Morgenthau, and other members of Roosevelt's inner circle.

Well, except that Henry Morgenthau had nothing to do with it, while McCarthyism, agree with it or not, is aptly named regarding a figure who is central to the effort.

Hartmann von Aue
02-22-2007, 10:44 PM
It doesn't matter to the anti-McCarthyites that Roosevelt and Truman appointed Communists and even Communist spies.

It doesn't matter to them that they appointed psychopaths capable of formulating the Morgenthau plan.

It doesn't matter to them that they gratuituously incinerated tens of thousands of civilians in terror bombing.

It doesn't matter to them. All that matters to them is protecting liberalism from being exposed for what it really is.

Der Sozialist
02-22-2007, 11:34 PM
It doesn't matter to the anti-McCarthyites that Roosevelt and Truman appointed Communists and even Communist spies.

Yes, and under Truman, many members from the NAZI party were hired as well—to help the CIA (for example) gather intelligence on the USSR.

It doesn't matter to them that they appointed psychopaths capable of formulating the Morgenthau plan.

Are you prepared to condemn Hitler’s plan for the occupation of Russia, Poland, and Britain? If not, this statement comes from a biased source.

It doesn't matter to them that they gratuituously incinerated tens of thousands of civilians in terror bombing.

Again, are you prepared to condemn the NAZIS for their actions during WW2? If not, this again comes from a biased source.

Kodos
02-23-2007, 01:11 AM
Well lets not go overboard. There actually IS a problem with McCarthyism in that it was often extra-legal. And though the Venona transcripts reveal some people to be Communist agents, it by no means reveals ALL targets of McCarthy to have been such. So I don't believe in letting McCarthy skate.

Fuck the law. Inter arma leges silent. The left should have been ruthlessly smashed top to bottom Pinochet style...

Now McCarthy and Cohn were somewhat corrupt (Nixon wasn't, as far as I know he was never wrong in anyone he went after) but the vast majority of those who suffered due to the HUAC were revealed by VENONA to have been communist agents.

Hartmann von Aue
02-23-2007, 05:05 AM
Yes, and under Truman, many members from the NAZI party were hired as well—to help the CIA (for example) gather intelligence on the USSR.

Are you prepared to condemn Hitler’s plan for the occupation of Russia, Poland, and Britain? If not, this statement comes from a biased source.

Again, are you prepared to condemn the NAZIS for their actions during WW2? If not, this again comes from a biased source.

If you want to understand my point of view I recommend that you read Leon de Poncins' State Secrets.