Sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks

[Bajlozi]

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.

Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J.

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract

[Ambrosio Spinola]

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/romanciv/romancivimages2/6zeustyphon.jpg

Of course...here an ancient Greek vase...they portrayed themselves as blacks!!!!111ONEOMG

[Jake Featherston]

Pericles was well known for gettin' jiggy with it.

[Helios Panoptes]

This is what world-leading geneticists Neil Risch from Stanford U., Alberto Piazza from the University of Torino and L. L. Cavalli-Sforza also from Stanford had to say on the interpretations of Arnaiz-Villena based on the HLA-DRB1 marker [1]:


Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

http://dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/000361.html

[WFHermans]

Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, but the reason for that is the Greek origin of those Ethiopians.

[Jake Featherston]

Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, but the reason for that is the Greek origin of those Ethiopians.

I think Helios has made it clear we don't need to pay any attention to this study, but if we did need to, then yes, that seems a far more likely explanation. The Greeks were far more likely to travel to Ethiopia than vice versa.

[Dardanian11]

The Greeks
from C.S. Coon, The Races of Europe, Chapter XII, section 14

The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present. Some of these converts to Hellenicism were inhabitants of Asia Minor, others of Thrace and Byzantium, others of the lands bordering the Black Sea, especially the Crimea.

Into the peninsula of Greece itself, many thousands of Slavs wandered as immigrants during the maximum South Slavic expansion; the Turks brought colonists, including many Albanians, and whole districts of Boeotia and Attica and of other parts of Greece are today Albanian speaking. Romance-speaking shepherds, the Vlachs, have also made the slopes of the Pindus their seasonal pastures. Since the World War many of the Greeks living in Thrace and Asia Minor have been sent to Greek soil to live, while Turks and other Moslems have been in turn repatriated. Despite these attempts at producing ethnic order, much Greek territory, especially in Macedonia, remains ethnically heterogeneous. Furthermore, the number of Greeks who live abroad, be it in Egypt, East Africa, or in the New World, is so great that the Greeks are still almost an international people. Many of the Greeks leave home to make their fortunes on less stony soil, but many of them also return.

It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many kinds of people living in different places, as they do today. If one refers to the inhabitants of Attica during the sixth century, or to the Spartans of Leonidas, then the changes in these localities have probably not been nearly as great as that between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South Germans, to cite but a single example.

Within the peninsula of Hellas, despite the mobility of the Greeks to and from their country, the internal mobility has not been sufficient to break down strong local differentiations in head form. The Epirotes, like their neighbors the Toscs, have an extremely high cephalic index mean, 88, and there seems to be a strongly brachycephalic zone running down the western slopes of the mountain core from Albania to the Gulf of Corinth, and perhaps beyond. [130] It is an extension of the same zone which extends all the way from the Alpine racial center in France, and more specifically, of the population studied in the region of Gjinokaster in southernmost Albania. The Greeks of Macedonia, again, who live in settlements interspersed with those of Bulgars and of Turks, possess the usual West Balkan brachycephaly, with mean cephalic indices of 86 for Christians, and 84.6 for Moslems. Greeks from the northern shore of Asia Minor have a mean of 87, while those from the Black Sea coast in Rumania, and members of the colony in the Crimea, are low brachycephals, with a mean of 82.

In Greece itself, most of the Peloponnesus, Attica, Euboea, and the Ionian Isles are characterized by a mean cephalic index of 81 to 82; this is also true of the Greeks who are found abroad, as in America. Aside from local groups in regions which, in classical times, were not truly Greece, the modern Greeks are for the most part low brachycephals. In Thessaly a provincial mean of 77 has been reported; and Greeks from the shore of the Sea of Marmora have a mean of 79. There are still, therefore, local groups of Greeks who are largely long-headed.

The stature mean for Greeks in general runs about 167 cm., and there seems to be little regional variation; those in Asia Minor and in the Crimea are a millimeter shorter, those measured in Boston a millimeter taller. The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen; their stature is too elevated for the prevalence, in partial brachycephalization, of a strong, small Mediterranean strain. About half of them have brunet-white or light brown skin color, the rest the usual pinkish-white of central and northern Europe; over 80 per cent have dark brown hair, the rest have hair evenly divided between black and the lighter shades of brown. Pronounced blondism, although rare, is not unknown. The beard is rarely lighter than the head hair, in contrast to the condition found among Ghegs and Montenegrins; the implication is that the dark brown hair of the majority of Greeks is a pure brunet condition. Over 65 pa-cent of Greeks have pure brown eyes, and most of these are dark brown: pure lights are sporadic, but there is a 15 per cent incidence of light-mixed iris forms.

The pigment ratios given above apply to Greeks as a whole; there is evidence, however, of considerable regional variation. The Macedonian Greeks are much lighter, especially those that are Moslem, while the Greeks of the lonian islands are darker, as are, in all probability, most Peloponnesians.

For a more detailed study of the Greeks, we may examine the series measured in Boston, which, although without doubt subjected to selective forces, does not seem too much at variance from native Greek sample for our purposes. The men measured came from all parts of Greece, and from Asia Minor. Their mean stature, 168 cm., is moderately tall; their bodily proportions are for the most part intermediate; the shoulders arc broad, the trunk length moderate, as shown by a relative sitting height of 52.9; the relative span is 104.

Their heads, with a mean cephalic index of 82, are long for brachycephals (189 mm.), and of moderate breadth (154 mm.); the head height of 127 mm. is moderately high. The occiput protrudes but little in most of the group; 40 per cent have lambdoidal flattening, while some degree of occipital flattening occurs in over 50 per cent. It is pronounced, however. in only about 20 per cent. Their facial breadths are: minimum frontal, 107 mm., bizygomatic, 142 mm., and bigonial, 111 mm.; the great breadth of the jaw, as compared with that of the forehead, is a Greek specialty, and is strongly contrasted with the inverted triangle face form of Albanian Dinarics. The face height is 124.4 mm., the upper face height 75.6 mm.; the facial index, 87, is mesoprosopic, the upper facial index, 53, a little high in comparison with the foregoing. The noses are both long (58.8 mm.) and moderately broad (37 mm.); the nasal index of 63.2, leptorrhine.

The dimensions given above are for the most part quite variable; a number of distinct types are included, but the metrical character of the group as a whole indicates a blending of Dinarics and Alpines with Atlanto-Mediterraneans, which is confirmed by the observational data to follow.

The head hair is straight in slightly more than half the group, wavy in most of the rest, but curly hair is not unusual. It is usually medium to fine in texture. With at least half of adult male Greeks, it is thin on the head, and about one out of five of any adult group is bald. In old age baldness affects the majority. The beard development is as a rule thicker than in most European groups, and the body hair is often abundant. The eyebrows are often thick, and are concurrent in 75 per cent of the group; the browridges are usually of moderate development. The foreheads give, in most cases, an appearance of great width, and are seldom more than very slightly sloping. The nasal characters of the Greeks are variable, but there are definite trends which pervade the whole group. The root is, as a rule, moderately high, and medium to broad; narrow roots, usual among most northern Europeans and among Dinarics, are rare. The bridge is of medium to great height, almost never low; the breadth is as a rule medium to broad. The nasal profile is straight in about 45 per cent of the group, convex in about 30 per cent, and concave in but 10 per cent, while the rest are wavy or concavo-convex. The tip is as a rule thick, and elevated more often than it is depressed. The nasal wings, as a rule medium, are flaring more often than compressed. On the whole few Greek noses can qualify as Dinaric in the strict sense; more are typically Alpine, while a straight-profiled, consistently wide form is the commonest.

There is nothing remarkable about the lips and mouth region of the Greeks; both membranous and integumental lips thicknesses, are of usual European dimensions, and eversion is as a rule slight to medium. The lip seam, however, is usually visible, and is sometimes prominently elevated. A slight degree of facial prognathism is found in nearly half the group; alveolar prognathism is rare. Typically Greek features are full, curved temples, full cheeks, a laterally prominent malar region, and strongly everted gonial angles. In these facial characters well over half show an extreme development for Europeans.

Within the Greek group, heavy beards, heavy browridges, and concurrent eyebrows tend to associate themselves with an Alpine type; there is also a linkage between tall stature, in the 170 cm. class, cephalic indices of about 80, straight noses, dark brown hair, and dark brown eyes. This last set of associations clearly denotes the presence of a strong Atlanto-Mediterranean element. There are also strong connections between black hair, occipital flattening, and narrow facial features, which means Dinaric or Armenoid. That the small amount of blondism among the Greeks is mostly Nordic in origin is indicated by its linkage with external eyefolds, relative thinness of beard, and absence of eyebrow concurrency.

The Greeks, in short, are a blend of racial types, of which two are most important; the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricisrn here is present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete Dinarics. The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the days of Homer. The racial type to which Socrates belonged is today the most important, while the Atlanto-Mediterranean, prominent in Greece since the Bronze Age, is still a major factor, it is my personal reaction to the living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite.

The living inhabitants of Crete differ considerably from the mainland Greeks. [131] They are taller, with a mean stature of 169 cm., and mesocephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 79. In some districts, as at Pedhiádha, the mean is actually on the upper border of dolichocephaly, at 77. The heads of the mesocephalic Cretans are as large as those of Nordics or Atlanto-Mediterraneans; a mean length of 193 mm., and a breadth of 149 mm., characterizes the group with an index mean of 77.

In facial and nasal dimensions, the Cretans resemble the Greeks. They are, however, somewhat blonder; only 35 per cent have pure brown eyes, while about 7 per cent have eyes that are light or predominantly light; the rest are mixed, with dark mixture in the great majority. About 25 per cent have black hair, and about 50 per cent dark brown; 10 per cent are light brown or blond, the rest medium brown. As among Albanians and not among most mainland Greeks, the beards are much lighter; 40 per cent have blond or light brown mustaches, with an equal number black or dark brown. About one-sixth have light brown to very brunet-white skin color.

One special group, the Sphakiots, living near the western end of the south side of the island, differ from the other Cretans in a number of characters; they are very tall, with a mean stature of 175 cm., and meso- to sub-brachycephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 81.6. They have especially large heads, with a mean length of 191 mm. and breadth ci 155 mm.; their faces are longer than the others, and equally broad or broader. Morphologically Dinaric types are common among them; they may be compared with Montenegrins and the northernmost Ghegs. According to the general assumption of authorities on Crete, the Sphakioti are the partial descendants of the Dorians who invaded the island at the end of the Minoan period. That some of them do resemble the traditional Spartan type is very likely. One can only derive them from the north, from the region in which the larger branch of the Dinaric race was formed.

The living Cretans are for the most part Atlanto-Mediterraneans, and there has been no post-Dorian migration into the island which could have brought such a type in large numbers. The only logical explanation of its presence in Crete, formed on the basis of available data, is that some this element existed in Crete in Minoan, probably for the most part Middle and Late Minoan, times; that migrations from the Greek mainland at the time of the Minoan collapse may have brought more.

The fact that a larger number of Cretans are blond than is the case with Greeks is a matter that requires ample data and some analysis to explain. One may attribute much of the blondism, perhaps, to the invasion that brought the Sphakiots, while some of it must be inherent in the Atlanto-Mediterranean race. But the arrival of the early Greek-speakers may have brought blondism other than that borne by the brachycephals, and Crete is an island; it is a principle of insular anthropology, well borne out by the British Isles, that when a numerous group invades an island it has a better chance for survival than in a continental area where there is a nearby mountainous or forest-covered hinterland, to which earlier types may retreat and from which they may reëmerge.

The important discovery about Crete, however, is the fact that its population is mostly Atlanto-Mediterranean; this race seems to be almost equally important in most of Greece. It has also appeared in the Dinaric area, and in Serbia; we shall see more of it in the eastern Balkans.

Notes

130 A bibliography of works on the physical anthropology of the modern Greeks would include:

Apostolidès, BSAP, ser. 3, vol. 6, 1883, pp. 614-616.
Cucukala, G. J., AnthPr, vol. 8, 1930, pp. 12-136.
Hasluck, M. M., and Morant, G. M., Biometrika, vol. 21, 1929, pp. 325-334.
Hrdlicka, A., The Old Americans.
Koumaris,J., ACAP, 1931. Paris, 1931, pp. 218-221.
Neophytos, A. C., Anth, vol. 1, 1890, pp. 679-711; vol. 2, 1891, pp. 25-35.
Ornstein, ZFE, vol. 9, 1877, pp. (39)-(41); vol. 11, 1879, pp. (305)-(306).
Pittard, E., ASAG, vol. 1, 1914, pp. 7-36; BDAIP, vol. 25, 1915, pp. 447-454.
Schiff, F., ZFE, vol. 46, 1914, pp. 14-40.
Stephanos, C., DESM, ser. 4, 10, 1884, Article Grèce, p. 432.
Weisbach, A., MAGW, vol. 11, 1882, pp. 72-97.

Besides these published works reference has been made to a series of 113 Greeks measured in Boston in 1932, by Drs. B. Gardner, S. Kimball, M. Titiev, and Mr. E. Muller, as part of a graduate course in field methods, under the direction of the author.

131 Hawes, C. H., ARBS, vol. 14, 1909-10, pp. 258-280; RBAA, supplement, 1910.
Luschan, F. von, ZFE, vol. 45, 1913, pp. 21-393.
Rosinski, B., Kosmos, vol. 50, 1925, pp. 584-637.
Schiff, F., ZFE, vol. 46, 1914, pp. 8-13.

link:
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coongreeks/

[B-Pep]

I have a lot of contact with Greeks in my daily life, and they are some of the most beautiful and cultured individuals I know. They look and act more European than the average "European-American". In my life I've only met two questionable Greeks, and yet you can still tell they are Europeans (they have very dark skin yet very fine features). One of these "Questionable Greeks" has a brother who has blonde hair and blue eyes.

All of these stupid "anthropoligists" should be ignored for they usually have some kind of nordicist agenda. The same anthropologists who say Greeks are non-white, I doubt would be very kind to Albanians and Balkanoids.

[Watzy]

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.

We are talking about modern Greeks here, since it's not possible to test the ancient ones. Ancient Greeks were a heterogeneous group, some of them arrived from Anatolia, while some from what is known today as Balkans.

Since blond Greeks were mentioned by pre-Macedonian Greek writers, a part of them such as Achaeans and Dorians had to posses Paleolithic Balkan genes found today mostly amongst modern Slavs of Croatia and Bosnia.

[Galdr]

What about those invading Northern tribes that actually evolved Greece into the classical culture we once knew it to be for it's cultural greatness? ;)

[Watzy]

What about those invading Northern tribes that actually evolved Greece into the classical culture we once knew it to be for it's cultural greatness? ;)

Since Ancient Greeks weren't Germanic, the chances these "Northern" tribes arrived from Germany or Scandinavia are very slim indeed. :)

[Galdr]

Since Ancient Greeks weren't Germanic, the chances these "Northern" tribes arrived from Germany or Scandinavia are very slim indeed. :)

I said they were Northern tribes but I didn't say they were German or Scandinavian. ;)

[Kriger]

I said they were Northern tribes but I didn't say they were German or Scandinavian. ;)

Then what invading Northern tribes are you referring to?

[delete]

Then what invading Northern tribes are you referring to?

Baltics amber is found in mykonos 1200 bc. At the same high quality bronze appears, (90 copper 10 % tin) in the mediterrainian, but it is found earlier in Denmark and Germany.
The highest concentration of high quality bronze swords is found in Denmark.

The seapeople arrive in Egypt around 1200 bc.

All this is facts, but main stream science does not care about this.

[Steppenwolf]

Everyone one knows that the Dorians came from the North ('Danaans' is etymologically similar to 'Danes'). The Hellenes were probably a fusion of two cultures: one Pelasgian and one Indo-European. The Titans were the Gods of the former; in fact they are very similar to those of other proto-Europeans: the Etruscans, for example. The struggle between the Titans and the Olympians symbolizes the real struggle between the native Pelasgian culture and the invading Indo-European one. The Sea-Peoples were Pelasgian (from Southern Italy and Greece) or, at most, a combination of the two fused aforementioned cultures.

[Furor Teutonicus]

All rubbish ... Any of these examples of Negroid types are actually Albanians or Turks.

[Galdr]

Everyone one knows that the Dorians came from the North ('Danaans' is etymologically similar to 'Danes'). The Hellenes were probably a fusion of two cultures: one Pelasgian and one Indo-European. The Titans were the Gods of the former; in fact they are very similar to those of other proto-Europeans: the Etruscans, for example. The struggle between the Titans and the Olympians symbolizes the real struggle between the native Pelasgian culture and the invading Indo-European one. The Sea-Peoples were Pelasgian (from Southern Italy and Greece) or, at most, a combination of the two fused aforementioned cultures.

Exactly! The Northern Dorians.

[Bajlozi]

Everyone one knows that the Dorians came from the North ('Danaans' is etymologically similar to 'Danes'). The Hellenes were probably a fusion of two cultures: one Pelasgian and one Indo-European. The Titans were the Gods of the former; in fact they are very similar to those of other proto-Europeans: the Etruscans, for example. The struggle between the Titans and the Olympians symbolizes the real struggle between the native Pelasgian culture and the invading Indo-European one. The Sea-Peoples were Pelasgian (from Southern Italy and Greece) or, at most, a combination of the two fused aforementioned cultures.
In regard to Pelasg`s, arent they the ancestors of Illyrians and Thracs?

[Galdr]

In regard to Pelasg`s, arent they the ancestors of Illyrians and Thracs?

Some theorists consider them to be a remnant of the neolithic era.

[Bajlozi]

Some theorists consider them to be a remnant of the neolithic era.
I found this colossal work (which stretches over e period of 40 years) about Palasgians and The White race in General;

Auteur : ANGELY ROBERT D'
Livre : GRAMMAIRE ALBANAISE COMPAREE
Edité par S. d'angely - Paru en 1998

Auteur : ANGELY ROBERT D'
Livre : DE L'EMPIRE OTTOMAN, DES ALBANAIS, DE L'EPIRE
Edité par Cismonte e pumonti - Paru en 1991

Auteur : ANGELY ROBERT D'
Livre : DES THRACES DES ILLYRIENS A HOMERE
Edité par Cismonte e pumonti - Paru en 1990

Auteur : ANGELY ROBERT D'
Livre : LE SECRET DES EPITAPHES
Edité par Cismonte e pumonti - Paru en 1991

Auteur : ANGELY ROBERT D'
Livre : LES PELASGES
Edité par Cismonte e pumonti - Paru en 1990

The most interesting;

Robert d’Angely, L’ENIGME
http://www.livres-chapitre.com/-P0PWW7/-D/'ANGELY-R./-L/'ENIGME.html

[Micaelis]

This thread is horrible. Congratulations.

[Watzy]

Exactly! The Northern Dorians.

Actually there's nothing "northern" about Dorians. They settled Greece from Balkanic locations such as Dalmatia, Pannonia, Macedonia, Epirus, Illyria ect.

It was the Balkanic stock that contributed to the cultural development of Ancient Greece while northern European peoples were still pretty much on the level of 19. century Kongo or Guinea.

The closest and the most direct biological kin to Dorians should be searched amongst tall and blond natives of various Balkanic locations such as Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro - not Denmark.

Nordicist explanations exist only to provide a pseudo-history to uncivilized and non-historic Germanic ancestors of northern Europe.

Sfakian People and the Dorians

"In the southwest part of the island of Crete today lives
a Dorian Greek tribe. They are very tall, fair haired and have blue eyes."

In actual fact, the origins of the Dorians, a pastoral people, are necessarily obscure, but it appears they originated in northern and northwestern Greece, i.e. Macedonia and Epirus. From there they apparently swept southward into central Greece and then into the southern Aegean area in successive migrations beginning about 1100 BC, at the end of the Bronze Age. This new people brought with it a new material, iron, which was of Balkan origin.

Dorian Greeks settled in Illyria before 2000 BC, ancient regions of the Balkan peninsula occupied by Indo-European-speaking tribes, including the Dalmatians and Pannonians. Warlike and piratical, they withstood (6th cent. B.C.) Greeks attracted by their iron mines and later attacks by Macedonians. The Romans conquered them and set up (168-167 B.C.) the province of Illyricum. Today Illyria means the Adriatic coast North of central Albania.

Illyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age and to have manifested itself in the territory of Albania toward the beginning of the Bronze Age, about 2000 BC. The Illyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to (and including) the region of Epirus, which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece. In general, Illyrians in the highlands were more isolated than those in the lowlands, and their culture evolved more slowly, a distinction that persisted throughout history. In its beginning, the kingdom of Illyria comprised the actual territories of Dalmatia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, with a large part of modern Serbia. Shkodra (Scutari) was its capital, just as it is now, the most important center of Northern Albania. The earliest known king of Illyria was Hyllus (The Star) who is recorded to have died in the year 1225 B.C.

The Illyrians carried on commerce and warfare with their neighbors. The ancient Macedonians probably had some Illyrian roots, but their ruling class adopted Greek cultural characteristics. The Illyrians also mingled with the Thracians, another ancient people with adjoining lands on the east. In the south and along the Adriatic Sea coast, the Illyrians were heavily influenced by the Greeks, who founded trading colonies there. The present-day city of Durrës evolved from a Greek colony known as Epidamnos, which was founded at the end of the seventh century B.C. Another famous Greek colony, Apollonia, arose between Durrës and the port city of Vlorë. The Illyrians produced and traded cattle, horses, agricultural goods and wares fashioned from locally mined copper and iron. Feuds and warfare were constant facts of life for the Illyrian tribes, and Illyrian pirates plagued shipping on the Adriatic Sea.

The first hellenic tribes of Dorians and Achaeoi resided in Macedonia in prehistoric times, first in Emathia near mountain Vermion and later expanded northwards and eastwards.

http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/greekmigration.gif

(...)

http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/dorians-sfakia.html

[Watzy]

"In the southwest part of the island of Crete today lives
a Dorian Greek tribe. They are very tall, fair haired and have blue eyes."

It must be underlined here that tall or blond individuals native to Balkans should not be confused with northern Europe, Nordic race, Germanics or any other Barbarian outsiders. They aren't "Nordic" but Paleolithic Europeans aboriginal to Balkans.

[Galdr]

Watzy I have never made any nordicist claims.

I only said they came from the North which can lead to different interpretations but that wasn't where I was trying to go at in conversation.

( I don't consider myself a nordicist.)

[Steppenwolf]

This thread is horrible.
How so? I posted in it.

[anthropos]

concerning the sub saharan origin of modern greeks...

and arnaiz vilena controversy...

i have discovered an interesting article...

btw,i am sick and tired with albanian animosity...

why do these balkanians behave like this to their greek benefactors...

just imagine that from the 3,5 millions of Albania's population...

one million has found shelter to a small neighboring country,called...

Greece!

anyway,have a look...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe

The Arnaiz-Villena controversy
An often-cited study from 2001 by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al.[15] which maps 28 world population based on the HLA DRB1 locus, concluded that "the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan, and West Africa (Burkina Faso)." Later that year, the same data was used in another study by the same author published in a different journal.[16] This second paper dealt specifically with the relatedness of Palestinians and Israelis and was subsequently "deleted from the scientific literature" because, according to the editor-in-chief Nicole Suciu-Foca, it "confounded the elegant analysis of the historic basis of the people of the Mediterranean Basin with a political viewpoint representing only one side of a complex political and historical issue".[17]

Erica Klarreich's report on the controversy further quotes Suciu-Foca as saying that the reaction against the paper was so severe that "We would have had mass resignations and the journal would have been destroyed if this paper were allowed to remain."[18] The controversy was further reported on in numerous locations including The Observer.[19]

Shortly after this, three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena's methodology.[20] They stated that "Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.", making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as "anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups."

No multiple-marker analysis has ever duplicated Arnaiz-Villena's results. In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 120 loci (view MDS plot[21]). Then, Ayub et al. 2003[22] did the same thing using 182 loci (view dendrogram[23]).

Another study was conducted in 2004 in the University of Ss. Kiril and Metodij, Skopje, Macedonia and used High-resolution typing of HLA-DRB1 following the methodology of Arnaiz-Villena. They did not reach to the same conclusion as Arnaiz-Villena but instead no sub-Saharan admixture was detected.[24]

A 2006 study by Tunisian scientists has asserted the relatedness of the Greeks to sub-Saharans by calculating genetic distances at the DRB1 locus,[25] the same used in the controversial Arnaiz-Villena paper. Both papers interpret those results as suggesting an admixture that happened, due to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopic people, during the Pharaonic period. However the Tunisian scientist did not analyze any Greek genetic material and no Greek laboratory contribiute to their reserch. They only compare their results with the ones of Arnaiz-Villena.[26] and thus repeated the same conclusion

The credibility of Arnaiz-Villena was seriously traumatized after he has been suspended without pay from the Hospital Doce de Octubre in Madrid, where he heads the department of immunology and molecular biology, after being charged with embezzlement of funds.[27]In addition to the charges, Dr Arnaiz-Villena is facing allegations of "moral harassment" at the Universidad Complutense de Madrid, where he chairs a research and teaching immunology unit.

[Bronze Age Pervert]

The group we know now as the "ancient Greeks" were actually a small aristocracy, racially different from the slaves and masses, which formed most of the population. Most of the modern Greeks are descendants of Syrian and "Lybian" (= African) slaves and imported laborers. The "ancient Greeks" were merely an invading Aryan aristocracy that superimposed itself on a preexisting Mediterranean substratum, with some noble Phoenician imports. All you need to do to see the folly of this study is to look at statues of ancient Greeks, for example the Doryphoros, and see how Nordic they looked. Or consider the fact that---sorry to mention it on the Phora---the most prized youths in ancient Athens were blond. On the cover of Dover's book on the subject you will see, e.g., a blond youth. Like Alcibiades, Achilles, and so on.

Unfortunately or fortunately like modern whites the Greeks probably had a desire not to do their own labor so they imported niggers. Too bad, now you get modern Greece, which is an armpit.

[anthropos]

Too bad, now you get modern Greece, which is an armpit.:deadhorse:



what about modern italy/modern spain/modern portugal/modern england/modern etc...where is blood purity today in europe???and what is it's value???my goodness,we are humans,not dogs,we dont need a pedigree!



i know nothing about genetics,i prefer environmrental biology...but i take part in this discussion because i see a racist person like this albanian to defame my people treacherously,by using the ambiguous Arnaiz Vilena theory...


U.S.A is the wealthiest and most powerful nation today,no blood purity whatsoever...mixing of races is not so bad after all...

modern Greece is greek allright,always masters of sea and trade...we always speak greek and use our greek alphabet...and we may say molon lave to any barbarian intruder,anytime...

my fear is that racism could easily be disguised by using the cover of genetics and fool many people...btw,see the ancient greek vases,no blond people at all,everybody is darkhaired...:cool:

[Hakluyt]

True story: I knew a Greek girl who looked uncannily like the woman below (with the typical sloped and pointed nose all portraits of ancient Greek women seem to have) which seemed to convince me that perhaps the modern Greeks are the same as the old; I later found out she is actually half-German and more or less a Nordicist herself. :p

http://www.costumes.org/History/greece/kohler/colorplate2.jpg

[Cid]

Has anyone one of the authoritative brains been to Greece ? I have been to Greece, and it is not an "armpit". The complexion of the Greeks is more white, and more attractive ,than the bastardized masses of the U.K. and France ( just to name two of the "new hybrid rainbow nations in the making" on the continent of Europe.

Greece is a beatifull land with a beatifull people. If Greece is an "armpit", then France and the U.K. are festerintg cloacal effluences.

Modern Greeks may have a distance with the likes of Pericles, Solon, Heraclitus, however they are equally distant from being the multiracial afro-asian cesspool that France and the U.K. represent.

[Pure_instinct]

One day Nordics will be considered as much a myth as Aryans. People will say we never existed or we were aliens from space. Those who insist that ancient Greece was never a land ruled by people of proto-Germanic, and therefore racially Nordic, people are contributing to the burying of our history. There is only one place that fair/red hair and blue eyes originate and that is northern Europe.

One day these traits will be so rare, only occurring in the odd throwback, that it will never be believed that once populations existed who were of this appearance - unless we all decide that being Nordicist is the right thing to do and breed in that direction.

Here is a quote from the script for 300
Xerses - "there would be no glory on your sacrifice... I will erase even the memory of sparta from history, every piece of greek parchment shall be burned...every greek historian and every scribe will have their eyes put out and their tongues cut from their mouths...while uttering the very name of sparta or leonidas will be punishable by death...the world will never know you existed at all..."

And here is a slightly altered version:

“ We will erase the memory of Germania and the White Race from the Histories. Every piece of White Art and culture shall be burned. Every White historian and scribe shall have their eyes put out and their tongues cut from their mouths. While even uttering the very name of Germany or Adolf Hitler will be punishable by death. The world will never know the White Race ever existed at all.”