European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests

[Thinker]

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/316/5823/364a

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4784/eurospaleonlyrecentlypu0.jpg

[Gaellaoch Christo'kos]

Interesting. But don't northern Asians (north Chinese and Japanese etc.) have light skin as well (though not as light)? Any ideas as to when this happened?

I won't mention Canadian Indians, since they only got to America a relatively short time ago.

[Felix the Cat]

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2340

Asians owe their relatively light skin to different mutations. That means that light skin arose independently at least twice in human evolution, in each case affecting populations with the facial and other traits that today are commonly regarded as the hallmarks of Caucasian and Asian races.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

What about the Caucasians that live in the Middle-East and North Africa? IE, do Arabs have the same mutation as Europeans?

Mongoloid skin looks different from Caucasoid skin.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I do not believe this study is poiting in the right direction. Western pigmentation , in order to hold water needs to be a pre Glacial age thing when western populations were capable to have a common pale skin line which would not have been afected by the division the Ice age spread over western europe.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

It seems to me an arab (with no negro blood, sadly, arabs are occasionally part negro) has the same basic racial makeup. Its the MONGOLOID (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc) that they mean when they say Asian.

http://www.friedmanarchives.com/Israel/images/Old%20Arab%20in%20Shuk%208x10%20300%20dpi%20(1978).jpg

[Ambrosio Spinola]

You can not discount white (western) influx into the middle east as part responsible for "whitness" in the area. The whole of Anatolia was once settled with a much different brand of people before the big ethnic cleansing and Byzantine retreat of the Turkish take over.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

I would guess its the other way around. A pure arab looks exactly like the person I showed. They are Mediterranean by genetics.

Parts of southern europe and north africa have it too, this "Mediterranean" blood. The Egyptians were Mediterranean.

The arab slave trade happened between the middle-east and africa, and certain arabs have taken in negroid dna. Ixabert had an article about that.

Anyways, many Arabs could be described as "Caucasian" but they could not be described as Nordic (northern europe) or Alpinic (Eastern Europe).

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I would think the middle east is a big grey area and while what you say might be true that does not invalidate what I say. FYI I do not equal white with Nordic. A Spaniard might tend to have dark hair and eyes but is commonly VERY pale if not under the sun.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

I would think the middle east is a big grey area and while what you say might be true that does not invalidate what I say. FYI I do not equal white with Nordic. A Spaniard might tend to have dark hair and eyes but is commonly VERY pale if not under the sun.
I agree. Arabic areas tend to be Caucasoid with some, sadly, negro mixture (but not always). I'd say 80% (just a guess) look "passable." I haven't studied the Persians (not arab) too much, but its quite likely they've been hit with Mongoloid blood. Afghans are not Arabs either.

And I agree about nordics. They aren't the only whites.

[calvin]

You can agree with what you want, your pettifogging nonsense about the ethnic demarcation point between whites, arabs and jews, has been roundly trashed on another thread.

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

You can agree with what you want, your pettifogging nonsense about the ethnic demarcation point between whites, arabs and jews, has been roundly trashed on another thread.
I cleaned your clock in that debate calvin...

[Dr. Gutberlet]

I would think the middle east is a big grey area and while what you say might be true that does not invalidate what I say. FYI I do not equal white with Nordic. A Spaniard might tend to have dark hair and eyes but is commonly VERY pale if not under the sun.

I have met many Gothic Spaniards who look just as Nordic as my neighbors. Definitely moreso than myself who is an east baltid with lappoid somehwre in the mix.

[delete]

I think european continental skin started to become white ca 4000 years ago, when some white living in an area previously under the ice, found tin-sand from glacial erosion. The first tin was not mined, and the ones that had tin first, could make bronze, and conquer the others. My guess is the hallstatt culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture).

When bronze hit Scandinavia, you got another expansion, as this time the bronze technology was coupled with advanced houses, boats and wagon building. I don't think it is accidental that the Swedes build some of the best car in the world, and that the Norwegians build some of the best boats.

A good wagon was build from wood, and the impetus to develop the tools and techniques would without a doubt benefit from a parallell development of boat tecnology.

Denmark and southern sweden is some of the places on the earth that wagons could be driven without to much hassle to clear roads. This is especially true of denmark, where the wet beaches have alwas functioned as roads.

[calvin]

I cleaned your clock in that debate calvin...

Really? I seem to remember that you had to hand the torch over to Billoflanding and then simply disappeared when his world crashed around his ears. If that’s your definition of victory in debate it’s no wonder that your definition of white is so moronic.


When did Europeans turn white? Who cares! Argumentum ad antiquitatem; even if Europeans had dark skins in the past it doesn’t make them the same as dark skinned people in the present, and I’m not about to wait ten thousand years for them to get up to civilizational par.

[Vindex]

We turned White when Yakub(A.K.A the African Dr.Evil) created us in his lab back in the day, baby.

[BillOfLanding]

Really? I seem to remember that you had to hand the torch over to Billoflanding and then simply disappeared when his world crashed around his ears.

When did my world "crash around my ears"?

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I have met many Gothic Spaniards who look just as Nordic as my neighbors. Definitely moreso than myself who is an east baltid with lappoid somehwre in the mix.

Spain has undergone quite some more northern population influxes besides that "Gothic" thing which makes me chuckle when I keep hearing that whatever Spanish blond crosses my path has to be some time machine Visigoth. Visigoth influence in Spain must have not been much bigger than Moorish influence. Spain was visited by 250.000 so Visigoths who at the point of settling had already crossed much of east europe, the balkans, Italy and south France taking new allies and slaves along the way into a 4 million strong Iberian-Celtic-Roman area which already had housed the Suebii, Alans and Vandals before. Muslim Spain imported hordes of slavic slaves-soldiers to act as a buffer against Berber influence. Reconquista Spain imported thousands of frankish (franko-gallic) colonists to settle recovered land.
Spain imported thousands of Flemish and Valon catholics too to settle south Spain as a way to take out of the heretic harms-way.
Those are just quick examples that spring to my mind.

Pale skin has to come necesarily way before 4000 years since it bears no conection with just "nordic migrations" through europe.

[calvin]

When did my world "crash around my ears"?

It didn’t. Your posts were very well informed and interesting. I do tend to disagree with the thrust of your comments however. I apologise for the above. I believe that FDR gave up in that debate.

[New Scientist]

I don't think it is accidental that the Swedes build some of the best car in the world, .



http://www.ugs.com/about_us/success/images/saab_large.jpg

http://www.motordesktop.com/wallpaper/supercars/Lamborghini%20Gallardo%20Yellow%20-%201024x768.jpg

What was that ?

[BillOfLanding]

It didn’t. Your posts were very well informed and interesting. I do tend to disagree with the thrust of your comments however. I apologise for the above. I believe that FDR gave up in that debate.

It would be interesting to see FDR´s opinions on the things discussed in that thread. I think he was making the point that Jews are "White" because they were recognized as such since the earliest period of American history. This ends up being a useless discussion given the lack of a precise definition for the term "White race".

[kane123123/Eagle Eye/stumbler/iceman]

I did, after I made the point before that, that Jews are anthropologically Caucasoid.

The point was anyone who looked Caucasoid was considered white.

[calvin]

I did, after I made the point before that, that Jews are anthropologically Caucasoid

Caucasoid is a geographical designation, since it is generally accepted that all humans originated in Africa, geographical designations must be qualified in order to be of any utility, otherwise ultimately the only valid geographical designation for human groups would be Africoid.

Since geographical designations must be qualified I believe that the sensible way to ascribe geographical identity is by ascribing that identity to the location of any distinctive human group where they began to formulate a distinctive cultural identity.

I think that “European” is a better geographical appellation for Slavic, Teutonic and Celtic people, or at least the people who were formerly identified under these categories. Why? Because European, Indian and Semitic people all came from the Caucasus but are all distinct and unique ethno-cultural groups. The purpose of language is to convey meaning, precise terminology is always better than imprecise terminology. In my understanding a word (Caucasian) that yokes together signally different ethno-cultural groups under one imprecise definition, simply conveys less information than more specific definitions. For this reason I believe that the term “Caucasoid” is a redundant and largely useless term.

Using a meaningful geographical designation as described above it is impossible to consider Jews to be anymore White, than Europeans who have lived in Africa for generations are Black. Jews have retain a distinctive religiously informed culture that evolved in the Levant, not in Europe, Jews imported that culture into Europe and largely held steadfast to that culture whilst managing even to maintain a noticeable degree of genetic integrity over thousands of years under the governance of an alien host.

There is no parallel with Huguenots because the beliefs of the Huguenots evolved from the European mainstream and the Huguenots were not of significantly separate genotype to other religious denominations in Europe. The Huguenots were schismatic insiders, Jewish culture was an importation.