Flies Show Free Will

[Petr]

Cool, if true.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/flies-show-free-will/#more-2337


16 May 2007

Flies Show Free Will

dacook


A team of neurobiologists led by Bjorn Brembs of Free University Berlin have found experimental evidence in fruit fly behavior indicating that these much-abused bugs may have an element of free will. A report on the study in LiveScience notes that:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18684016/?GT1=9951

For centuries, the question of whether or not humans possess free will — and thus control their own actions — has been a source of hot debate.

“Free will is essentially an oxymoron — we would not consider it ‘will’ if it were completely random and we would not consider it ‘free’ if it were entirely determined,” Brembs said. In other words, nobody would ascribe responsibility to one’s actions if they were entirely the result of random coincidence. On the other hand, if one’s actions were completely determined by outside factors such that no alternative existed, no one would hold that person responsible for them.
Of course standard Darwinian orthodoxy denies the reality of free will. Though many Darwinists shy away from the implications of their beliefs as they apply to ascribing responsibility for human behavior, their position demands that all behavior is determined by the genetic heritage of selfish genes. If free will in fact exists, it must exist outside the deterministic universe of materialism. But if free will exists in flies, can it be denied in humans?

Of course the scientists behind this study are good Darwinists all, and therefore must cavil and caveat their way out of the real implications of their findings:

Brembs said that “even a fly brain possesses a function which makes it easier to imagine a brain that creates the impression of free will.”
Just as life give only “the appearance of design” to people like Dawkins, observed behavior must be noted to give only “the impression of free will.” To stay in the mainstream, scientists must not acknowledge the possibility of actual free will, although Brembs comes perilously close with his statement:

“If even flies show the capacity for spontaneity, can we really assume it is missing in humans?” he asked.
As with biological complexity, the more we discover about behavior, the less deterministic it looks. Evidence for free will is evidence against Darwinism, no matter how it is spun.

[Kim Jong Tha Illest]

Petr, i suggest you spend a little bit less time doing the whole 'enemy of my enemy' bit and a little more time thinking about how a concept of free will that is manifested in the behavior of FRUIT FLIES squares with christian apologetics of any kind.

[Petr]

Petr, i suggest you spend a little bit less time doing the whole 'enemy of my enemy' bit and a little more time thinking about how a concept of free will that is manifested in the behavior of FRUIT FLIES squares with christian apologetics of any kind.
Trust me, I know Christian theology better than you do. So there's no need to worry about that.


Petr

[Kim Jong Tha Illest]

Trust me, I know Christian theology better than you do. So there's no need to worry about that.


Petr

But i do worry petr. I worry because i care.

Like, I'd care to hear an explanation of how nonhuman animals can have free will that fits into a christian account of the nature of things.

[il ragno]

Shall the flies praise Thee?

Flies Show Free Will

Yes, even the flies. EVERY knee shall bend!

[Basil Fawlty]

What about the bee's knees?

[Petr]

Shall the flies praise Thee?

Yes, even the flies. EVERY knee shall bend!
Actually you hit pretty close to the truth there, Raggie.


Psalms 148

1 Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens, praise him in the heights!
2 Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!
3 Praise him, sun and moon, praise him, all you shining stars!
4 Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD! For he commanded and they were created.
6 And he established them for ever and ever; he fixed their bounds which cannot be passed.

7 Praise the LORD from the earth, you sea monsters and all deeps,

8 fire and hail, snow and frost, stormy wind fulfilling his command!

9 Mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars!

10 Beasts and all cattle, creeping things and flying birds!

11 Kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all rulers of the earth!
12 Young men and maidens together, old men and children!

13 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for his name alone is exalted; his glory is above earth and heaven.

14 He has raised up a horn for his people, praise for all his saints, for the people of Israel who are near to him. Praise the LORD!


Petr

[Insidium]

Of course standard Darwinian orthodoxy denies the reality of free will. Though many Darwinists shy away from the implications of their beliefs as they apply to ascribing responsibility for human behavior, their position demands that all behavior is determined by the genetic heritage of selfish genes. If free will in fact exists, it must exist outside the deterministic universe of materialism. But if free will exists in flies, can it be denied in humans?

Really? Then why did Daniel Dennett, a vocal supporter of evolutionary theory, write a book called Freedom Evolves, which provides an evolutionary basis for free will?

[Petr]

And since we are now anthropomorphizing disgusting critters: :p


Cockroaches live in a democracy

Cockroaches govern themselves in a very simple democracy where each insect has equal standing and group consultations precede decisions that affect the entire group, indicates a new study.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1607034.htm


Petr

[Petr]

Really? Then why did Daniel Dennett, a vocal supporter of evolutionary theory, write a book called Freedom Evolves, which provides an evolutionary basis for free will?
Because he is in denial, inconsistent (or being deceptive)?


Let's all stop beating Basil's car

by Richard Dawkins

"Assigning blame and responsibility is an aspect of the useful fiction of intentional agents that we construct in our brains as a means of short-cutting a truer analysis of what is going on in the world in which we have to live. My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car."

http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html#dawkins


Petr

[Hippias]

Really? Then why did Daniel Dennett, a vocal supporter of evolutionary theory, write a book called Freedom Evolves, which provides an evolutionary basis for free will?

I haven't read that, but in Elbow Room Dennett develops his own account of free will, which differs subtly from the traditional "ability to do otherwise" libertarian account.

[Angler]

I define free will simply as "the ability to act in accordance with one's desires." Materialism (or "Darwinian orthodoxy") certainly does not rule out that people can act on their desires, wishes, impulses, and so forth.

The origin of those desires, on the other hand, does not factor into the definition of free will. Desires are the result of extraordinarily complicated interactions between genes and environment. So while there is an element of determinism there, we nevertheless have free will so long as we are able to act as we choose, regardless of the motivation for those choices.

Even if we suppose that free will is some kind of supernatural quantity, that still doesn't remove the question: "Where do our desires come from?" If they come from God or the Devil, then there's still determinism involved, just as if our desires came from the interaction of genes and environment.

[Omniel]

I've noticed on a number of occasions that it's possible to scare the proverbial shit out of a fly and then have it taunt you by diving towards your face and then swerving away at the last minute -or worse, get really pissed off and launch an unexpected nighttime ear attack. This news doesn't surprise me.

[il ragno]

I've noticed on a number of occasions that it's possible to scare the proverbial shit out of a fly and then have it taunt you by diving towards your face and then swerving away at the last minute -or worse, get really pissed off and launch an unexpected nighttime ear attack. This news doesn't surprise me.

I was about to make a similar point. You could say the flies, ingrained with survival smarts at the very least, are one up on humans with free will; since free will is what allows humans to do the truly stupid things - buy Edsels, smoke cigarettes, watch FOX Broadcasting - that no self-respecting shithouse fly would ever be caught dead doing.

[Sandee]

I thought Christians didn't believe that animals could have souls and/or free will and that in comparison, only humans had souls and thus, rightfully so, free will as well.

Edit: I mean, animals are most likely to 'react' and to follow their natural instincts whereas humans can use their higher mental capabilities to judge right from wrong and act accordingly and thus, the whole 'free will' notion.

[Felix the Cat]

Flies annoy me. I catch them, stun them, and feed them to the spiders in my yard.

[Helios Panoptes]

Could we define 'free will' before arguing about whether flies have it or not?

[The Retard]

Could we define 'free will' before arguing about whether flies have it or not?

I define 'free will' as any decision that has a consequence and you're conscientiously aware of it.

Perhaps not the best definition but I surely don't believe in what Spinoza teaches.

[Macrobius]

I thought Christians didn't believe that animals could have souls and/or free will and that in comparison, only humans had souls and thus, rightfully so, free will as well.

Edit: I mean, animals are most likely to 'react' and to follow their natural instincts whereas humans can use their higher mental capabilities to judge right from wrong and act accordingly and thus, the whole 'free will' notion.

Depends on whether you mean the folk understanding of Christianity or formal doctrine. Traditional Christianity (Orthodoxy and I don't see why Catholicism would be different) distinguishes three kinds of Soul (psyche, life): vegetable soul (growth principle), animal soul, and rational soul.

'Soul' really just means 'life' or 'vital principle' and can be understood in a scientific sense (as can the Greek term equivalent, Psyche, or its Latin translation, Anima). Current speakers, if uneducated, would typically have no sense of etymological connection between psyche-soul-anima. However, this is well understood among educated speakers, e.g., and presumed by educated Europeans, such as Carl Jung. The root meaning of psyche (soul in English) is 'butterfly' in Homeric Greek, by the way -- as in emerging from a chrysalis.

Anyway, animals have the first two kinds of soul, but lack the third. Human souls are immortal, but animal souls mortal and perish at death (However some Christians, such as C.S. Lewis, have argued that the immortality of animal souls is a legitimate speculation.)

Human souls became conditionally immortal, rather than naturally immortal, at the time of the Fall. That is, they require God's will prevent us sinking to the Animal, mortal state. If we did, we would simply vanish along with our biochemistry at death, like animals. On the other hand, had we remained naturally immortal, the effects of the Fall would have been eternal (repentance impossible), because it is only through Death that a restoration to permanent Immortality is possible. God didn't create Death (it was a consequence of Adam's choice), but he did grant Man conditional immortality to his soul, preventing immediate and permanent mortality, but by Grace (since by Nature Adam would have perished at his Death), and of course eventual resurrection of the body. ADDED: Indeed, without direct and immediate intervention, Adam would have died on the spot, since 'death' means separation from God, and Adam chose separation. Thus, our life, before and after death, is a gift or grace of God's. It certainly leaves us in approximately the Animal state, only with an extra soul to work with, and the *chance* of using our free will to accept immortality, now only possible by grace, and a permanent spiritual body. By comparison, the Devil is an immortal spirit, but a dead one (eternally separated, and not having a physical body, not subject to the changeableness Adam was, hence beyond rescue of the consequence of *his* free will). 'Spirit' (breath, wind) is, by the way, entirely different from 'Soul' in Christian tradition, though they are often conflated.

In any event, human souls are immortal (maintained by God until the Last Judgement) separately from the Body, and the resurrected spiritual body is also immortal. Animal souls are non of this. However, their mortality *is* a consequence of the Fall, since there was no Death in Paradise. Man's sin had cosmic consequences.

Free will is part of Man being created 'in image of God' and references specifically the intellectual soul (nous). Traditional Christians would not attribute what we call 'natural instinct' to pre-Fall animals. (I.e., Lions didn't eat Lambs, as that would have required killing). Animal instincts and animal life (also, plant life, viruses, meteorology...) are just as fallen as we are, in the post-Fall cosmos.

That's the Orthodox Christian doctrine so far as I understand it, and I would expect Catholic doctrine is substantially the same. Protestant doctrine I don't know (but I doubt Calvin and Luther would be different here). Modern liberal protestantism (which tends to influence all Christians at street-level) is probably all over the map.

[Macrobius]

Shall the flies praise Thee?



Yes, even the flies. EVERY knee shall bend!

Savour the moment folks. Il Ragno made a joke about flies and knees and it *wasn't* about oral sex. Petr will convert him yet.

[Ahmadinebobina]

Tremendous.
Birds can think, also.

[Ahknaton]

Shall the flies praise Thee?

Yes, even the flies. EVERY knee shall bend!

Savour the moment folks. Il Ragno made a joke about flies and knees and it *wasn't* about oral sex. Petr will convert him yet.
If the flies are worshipping anyone, it's probably Beelzebub.