PDA

View Full Version : If only Hitler had never been born!


Ixtab
12-23-2005, 03:04 PM
It's quite reasonable to imagine that, had Hitler never been born, the Eugenics Movement of the
early 1900's would have continued to flourish, and there would be eugenics programs in place in
most advanced countries today. Policies would evolve to make use of new knowledge of
genetics as it was acquired, and people would take eugenics for granted as merely "common
sense," and "just basic human kindness." But unfortunately, the vagaries of history and
limitations of the human mind have conspired to construct a psychological trap which has thus
far prevented any serious discussion of eugenics since the end of World War II. The "trap" is the
universally accepted belief that "Hitler supported eugenics, so eugenics must be evil." It seems
incredible that this non sequitur has totally paralyzed the Western world on the issue of our own
evolution for decades. There were 28 other countries besides Nazi Germany that practiced
eugenics, and nothing monstrous happened there. Sweden's eugenics program lasted 40 years.
Like Pavlov's dogs, we in the Western world are the objects of conditioning. Pavlov rang a bell
just before feeding the dogs, and soon they began to salivate at the sound of the bell. We have
heard "eugenics" paired with horrific stories of Nazi atrocities so many times that we now feel
negative emotions upon hearing the word, and we fear and hate the very idea of it. Like a kneejerk
response, it may not be rational, and it may not be fair, but that doesn't matter to the more
primitive mechanisms of our brains. Fortunately, such conditioning can be extinguished. There
are numerous studies in the psychological literature on this. The bottom line is that if Pavlov
starts feeding his dogs without ringing the bell first, then gradually the dogs will cease salivating
at the sound of a bell. Similarly, if people see, hear, read, and talk about eugenics when it is not
coupled with frightening images of the Holocaust, then eventually the conditioned negative
emotions towards it will fade away. Making this happen becomes the responsibility of all of us
who support eugenics.

The non sequitur joins forces with the unfavorable Zeitgeist

The Zeitgeist of the Western world at the turn of the millennium is completely and utterly
unfavorable to eugenics. All the facts that comprise the edifice of scientific knowledge upon
which it rests have been declared verboten by the liberal Thought Police. These are not matters
of opinion, these are scientific facts. Twin studies and adoption studies have found that all traits
have some genetic component--intelligence, kindness, phobias, political beliefs, favorite colors,
sexual preference, religious faith, vegetable aversions--and on and on and on. IQ is more a
function of heredity than it is of environment--adopted children show no correlation with their
adoptive families whatsoever by the time they are grown. Yet these facts have been deliberately
kept from the public by the media and academia, and branded "racist."
Thankfully, Communism as a political system has fallen into "the ash heap of history," as
Ronald Reagan predicted, but it's ideology of egalitarianism is alive and well in both the media
and academia, which currently have a strangle-hold on public opinion. Anyone who dares
question egalitarianism publicly will face serious consequences.
Recall that the idea of Communism sounded nice--that "everyone will share, and work toward
the common good." [Actually, early communists supported Eugenics in its heyday -- including certain Soviet geneticists. Eugenics is not a left-wing/righg wing thing.] But behind that facade lurked the most destructive system of governement
that ever existed. Likewise, egalitarianism sounds nice. It asserts: "All individuals and groups
are born exactly equal on every trait that matters." The simple fact is that it's demonstrably false.

[b]Paper Tiger[/b]

Egalitarianism and the association of eugenics with the Nazis may seem to have created a
hopeless situation, but it's more like a paper tiger. The fact is, no concerted effort has ever been
made to overcome it. We can even allow eugenics' unfairly sullied reputation to work for us in
the beginning--we do nothing to reinforce it, of course, but if the word "eugenics" generates a lot
of controversy, then so be it. The media follow controversy, and eugenics is nothing if not
controversial. Talk radio thrives on it. We will get a brief "free ride," and then people will come
to realize that we are serious, dedicated people who are concerned with the well-being of future
generations. We might consider hiring a publicist and a marketing analyst to help us over the
long term.
Eugenics needs to enter the public discourse, and people need to hear the common-sense
arguments in favor of it. We should expect that some in the media will try to suppress eugenics'
message, or distort it, just as they more generally do not cover (or deliberately slant) facts and
events that are at variance with their own liberal, egalitarian views. However, others will cover it
fairly, and with the Internet, C-Span, and who-knows-what next, eugenics won't be suppressed
for long.

[b]Safety in Numbers[/b]

Eugenicists need to join together in an organization, and to speak out publicly in articles,
speeches, debates, and every forum possible. (I can say from my own somewhat limited
experience that in debates, most anti-eugenicists aren't very formidable opponents, as they tend
to be overly-emotional and terribly ill-informed.) Within 2 or 3 years, we should hold an
international eugenics conference. A number of eminent scientists favor eugenics (such as
Francis Crick, James Watson, Joshua Lederberg, Lee Silver, et al). The conference will be a
great accomplishment, in and of itself, and we can publish the proceedings. It ought to be a held
again every other year. It will also be newsworthy, in light of the many luminaries in attendance--
to say nothing of the noisy protesters marching outside!
It's essential to groom several individuals as our media spokespeople. I deliberately use the word
"groom" in 2 senses. The first is to prepare for a role, the second is to "spruce up." Like the
politicos, we must be media-savvy in order to succeed, so our spokespeople must practice
debating, dealing with unruly audiences, etc., and in addition, we must take all necessary steps
to make them as "camera friendly" as humanly possible.
The fact that eugenics is a taboo subject means it's worse than being ignored--it means there's a
"built-in" opposition to it on the part of the public before the subject is even broached. By
temperament, most people are too timid to become directly involved in such a controversial
issue, although some can do it behind the scenes. This leaves only a tiny percentage of the
smartest and the bravest people who are even capable of working on it, so those of us who can,
should!!
It would be a mistake to conclude that because the taboo against eugenics is unfair and
unwarranted, we should simply ignore it, and the psychological dynamic keeping it in place.
There are things we can do to eradicate the taboo (described below). It is also pointless to
bemoan the blind conformity of the average person, which plays a role in maintaining it. We
need to be objective about human nature, and to work with it.
Consider the role of conformity in our evolution. The human species evolved as a social animal,
and individuals had a difficult or impossible time trying to survive alone. Those who were too
terrified to express strong disagreement with the group would be more likely to survive and pass
on their genes in primitive circumstances in which ostracism usually meant death. It's no wonder
conformity is a very strong instinct. Therefore, psychologically, it's important for the public to
see respectable, articulate people speak out in support of eugenics, and then to see these same
individuals again and again over time. Only then they will understand--not only intellectually,
but emotionally, on a gut level--that eugenicists are not in danger of being crucified, burned at
the stake, or shunned by every living creature. If someone says something in favor of eugenics,
and is denounced as a racist or a Nazi, he/she should maintain a "high profile" afterwards,
confident and un-cowed, and other members of the organization should immediately hold a
press conference to express their support.

[b]"Jimmy the Greek"[/b]

Eugenicists can learn a lesson from what happened to "Jimmy the Greek." In response to a
question about why blacks seemed to excel at sports, he said something to the effect that perhaps
plantation owners had encouraged reproduction of the strongest men so they could get more
work done in the fields. He was instantly fired from CBS, and from then to his death was never
seen nor heard from again. Most people were hard-pressed to say precisely what was so
offensive about his remark. Perhaps he said something derogatory off camera. But the point is,
the public gets the message: "Race is a taboo subject. Terrible things happen to those who
breech the taboo."
This is precisely the message we want the public to un-learn about eugenics, and we can take
simple, practical steps to insure that it does un-learn it. Here is the essential thing, which bears
repeating: We must speak out about eugenics at every opportunity, and we must insure that the
public sees that those who do so go on to survive and prosper!! After they've witnessed this a
number of times, eugenics will no longer be a taboo subject. It's just that simple. We will have
won a major psychological victory.
It will take years of hard work to accomplish this. But if this problem were easily solved,
someone would have solved it long ago! In that case, we wouldn't have the honor and privilege
of taking on the challenge ourselves! We have before us an exceedingly difficult problem
demanding every ounce of our creative intelligence. But it is also the most "worthy" of problems
because the happiness and well-being of countless people of the future depend on our efforts.
There's always a multitude of worthwhile causes, but I can't imagine any more important than
eugenics, because the health, intelligence, and character of the population are essential to the
recognition and solution of all problems. We can never fully anticipate what difficulties the
future will bring, and solve them in advance. Would it even be advisable to try? Certainly it
would not represent the optimal use of our resources. Far and away the best thing we can do for
the children of the future is to bequeath to them the gifts of excellent health, high intelligence,
and good character so that they will have the maximum innate capacity to meet whatever
challenges might arise.
Ask yourself this question: Would you rather be a healthy, smart, honorable person with number
of problems to overcome, or chronically ill, retarded, or a psychopath with no other problems? I
think everyone--past, present, and future--would make the same choice. Biological integrity is
the number one priority for individuals, and for our species.
by Marian Van Court

daisy
12-23-2005, 03:32 PM
i have never associated hitler's homicidal murders of jews with eugenics
somehow homicidal showers and homicidal gas chambers don't remind me of eugenics

Petyr Baelish
12-23-2005, 08:08 PM
i have never associated hitler's homicidal murders of jews with eugenics
somehow homicidal showers and homicidal gas chambers don't remind me of eugenics



You are, unfortunately, in the (rational) minority vis-a-vis this issue.

raven
12-23-2005, 08:14 PM
I won't lie and say that I'm in support of the eugenics movement. The eugenics movement of the late 19th century and early 20th century gave birth to Nordicism after all.

Crowley
12-23-2005, 09:02 PM
My favorite historical woulda coulda shoulda is too bad the United States didn't stay the hell out of the First World War. Had the United States minded its own business Germany would have won the war and thus saved both the Russian and the German people from the terror of World War 2 and Hitler would not have been necessary. The eugenics movement will rebound in Asia where individual rights are subordinated to group rights.

Fade the Butcher
12-28-2005, 03:56 PM
True. The eugenics movement was flourishing until it became associated with Nazism. There were other factors that also contributed to its demise, though.

Ixtab
12-28-2005, 04:10 PM
True. The eugenics movement was flourishing until it became associated with Nazism. There were other factors that also contributed to its demise, though.What would you consider to be the most significant factors?

Fade the Butcher
12-28-2005, 04:17 PM
1.) Nazism
2.) Liberalism
3.) Jewish activists in our universities

Petr
12-28-2005, 04:23 PM
1.) Nazism
2.) Liberalism
3.) Jewish activists in our universities
Do you think that it was all due to external factors like these and had nothing to do with any sorts of internal flaws of eugenics?


Petr

Fade the Butcher
12-28-2005, 05:15 PM
Pretty much. The eugenics movement was making rapid progress until the 1930s.

Ambrosio Spinola
12-29-2005, 07:01 AM
Talking about Liberalism Fade, I read your very nice threads over at SF about these dolts who upheld first and foremost "Their liberties" over the racial community. It would be nice if you could post a thread about that over here. There was some good quality stuff there.

Lord_Lugdreg
12-29-2005, 10:01 AM
Even if The Great One had never been born the jews would still have worked tirelessly to stop eugenics.

Since they believe they are (self)Chosen any belief that would want to cull the world of their kinky-haired, black-eyed, hooked-nosed darker skinned selves would be opposed by them eventually.

In fact The Great One probably delayed their 'progress' by several decades.

Right now eugenics is being practised in China so it is still exists in the World and my guess is when the Chinese eventually invade the USA/ZOG many Whites will be enslaved to take part in fiendish yellow experiments to create Anima Eternae Clones.

Kodos
12-29-2005, 04:32 PM
Even if The Great One had never been born the jews would still have worked tirelessly to stop eugenics.

Since they believe they are (self)Chosen any belief that would want to cull the world of their kinky-haired, black-eyed, hooked-nosed darker skinned selves would be opposed by them eventually.

In fact The Great One probably delayed their 'progress' by several decades.

Right now eugenics is being practised in China so it is still exists in the World and my guess is when the Chinese eventually invade the USA/ZOG many Whites will be enslaved to take part in fiendish yellow experiments to create Anima Eternae Clones.

Don't worry about it, judging by the content of your post you have no chance of being selected as a candidate for genetic experiments to create the master race.

Crowley
12-29-2005, 04:51 PM
It is doubtful that eugenics would be discredited had Hitler, and the nationalist right throughout Europe, won the war. War was inevitable between nationalist and communists. The communists won. You can blame Hilter for losing but not for starting the war. The communists started the war. So it is more accurate to say communism destroyed eugenics.

Fade the Butcher
12-29-2005, 05:39 PM
What if there had never been a war in the first place?

Crowley
12-29-2005, 06:00 PM
The soviets would have marched into Germany with the help of German and Jewish Reds, same thing would have been repeated in France.

Fade the Butcher
12-29-2005, 06:27 PM
Why didn't the Soviets take over Western Europe when they had the chance?

Crowley
12-29-2005, 07:09 PM
Why didn't the Soviets take over Western Europe when they had the chance?

Patton and nuclear warheads.

Anarch
12-29-2005, 08:22 PM
Why didn't the Soviets take over Western Europe when they had the chance?
Because they were too busy consolidating the revolution, i.e. socialism in one country. And with the combined power of free Europe with the backing of the British Empire, plus the almost-guarenteed lack of support of the USSR by the United States, would've resulted in the USSR getting, well, pwn3d. After WW2, they were ruined internally.

DeathtoPrejudice
01-03-2006, 05:46 AM
If Hitler had never been born, assuming everything else progressed normally, Communism would have been in control of all of europe (including britain) around the era of WWII.

I'm not justifying his, hateful and disgusting mass murder known as the holocaust, but he had a purpose in this world and he fufilled it...

Kodos
01-03-2006, 06:15 AM
If Hitler had never been born, assuming everything else progressed normally, Communism would have been in control of all of europe (including britain) around the era of WWII.

Russian armies are historically much stronger on the counteroffensive then the offensive, if Stalin attacked without Hitler invading you would not be dealing with the red army of 1945 but the red army that got so badly pwn3d in Finland. Hitler's defeat gave Eastern Europe to the reds and gave the communist internationally( outside the US) a great deal of respect.

DeathtoPrejudice
01-03-2006, 06:21 AM
The Finnish were notoriously devote to their defense, plus they were highly trained and well equiped. the invasion of finland was extremely, poorly planned, and the Finnish winter (Russian winter bad? pfft) really destroyed the russians.

Check this article:

Here is why and how the Third Reich went to war against the Soviet Union.

Yes, it is a lomg read, but it is imperative that you understand the facts (if you have an interest in this topic, that is).

I like to leave out the general anti-bolshevist comments, and minor equipment (planes, tanks etc) inaccuracies when reading it.

"The critical moment of World War Two - if not the entire Twentieth Century - is generally accepted to have been Hitlerīs decision to launch an "unprovoked" attack on a seemingly neutral and peaceful Soviet Union. Up until recently, this (Fuehrer decision) has been regarded as a mistake, which doomed **** Germany.

"Icebreaker" by Russian military historian Viktor Suvarov exposes this picture as nonsense. This extensively researched piece of history provides compelling evidence that Operation Barbarossa was a reluctant pre-emptive strike against a massive Soviet military machine poised to invade not just Germany but the whole of Western Europe.

Suvarov quotes top secret Soviet documents which make it crystal clear that Soviet military theory was based on offense and the conquest of territory "for the World Revolution." And this theoretical plan for offensive war was matched by practical preparations in every branch of the armed forces.

In 1939 Adolf Hitler came into the war with a total of 3,195 tanks, fewer than the Kharkov Works in the "peace loving" Soviet Union was producing every six months on a "peace time" footing. The works produced the BT high speed tank, which was capable of 100 kmph and had a range of 700 km. Based on a design by the American tank genius J. W. Christie, these had their engines and transmission systems at the rear and were 25 years ahead of their time. By 1936, BT tanks were fording deep rivers under water and driving along river beds.

On unmade roads the Mark BT operated (although not very effectively) on heavy tracks, but once on good roads, their tracks were discarded and the tanks raced ahead on wheels. The only real roads were to be found in western Europe, in particular the German autobahn network, for which the tanks were intended. The claim that Stalinīs tanks were not ready for war is not true; they were not ready for a defensive war.

The same applied to Soviet aircraft in both numbers and quality. Communist propagandists in the post war period claimed that although the Soviet Union had many aircraft, they were inferior. In fact, the most heavily armed fighter in the world in 1939 was the Russian Polikarov I-16. The type 17 had two synchronized 7.62 mm machine guns and two 20 mm cannons mounted on the wings, conferring a weight of fire twice that of the Messerschmitt 109E-1, and nearly three times that of the Spitfire 1.

Soviet aircraft builders created a plane, unique in the world, which had an armored fuselage. The IL-2 was virtually a flying tank with extremely high powered weaponry, including eight rocket launchers. Soviet planes were the first in the world to use rockets in combat.

The fatal weakness in this formidable air force was that none of its pilots had been trained for dogfights with enemy planes. The Soviet battle plan relied on a massive surprise attack to knock out the enemy air force on the ground in the first hour of the war.

By mid-June 1941, in final preparation for such a blow, Stalinīs planes themselves presented an ideal target, packed wingtip to wingtip on temporary airstrips immediately behind the front line, rather than dispersed several hundred miles to the rear - as they would have been in preparation for a defensive war.

Likewise, airborne assault troops are only useful to an aggressor. Countries concerned with defense need very few. Hitler had created only 4,000 paratroopers by 1939, but Stalin already had more than a million - 200 times more than the rest of the world, including Germany, put together. There were 10 Corps, each supported by airborne artillery and even battalions of light amphibious tanks.

Soviet engineers were also hoping to land hundreds, or even thousands of tanks in the west. Aircraft designers suggested that the ordinary tank be fitted with wings and a tail with its hull used as a framework. The tank crew controlled the flight by turning the turret and raising the barrel of the cannon! The entire construction was astonishingly simple. The risks of flying it were unusually great, but human life was cheap to Stalin. Just before landing the tank engine started up and the tracks revolved at maximum speed. The KT then landed on its tracks and gradually braked. Prototypes were actually flown but, like the millions of paratroopers, they were no use in the unexpected defensive war started by the German invasion.

Once the paratroopers had seized key points and airfields, the Soviet plan then called for huge numbers of reinforcements to be flown in. As well as building massive numbers of C-47 (Dakota) heavy transport planes under license from the U.S. government, Stalin ordered a huge glider building program. The ten different designs included Antonovīs multi-seat assault glider - the A-7 and the KZ-20, which could carry 20 soldiers.

The human cost of this extravagant expansion was horrific. Having sold Russiaīs artistic treasures and vast reserves of gold, platinum and diamonds, the Bolsheviks began their notorious collectivization program. The peasants were driven by force into collective farms so that crops could be taken from them without payment. Ten to sixteen million died from collectivization and the resulting famine, compared with 2.5 million Russians in World War I.

Yet Stalin sold five million tons of grain abroad every year. . . "

"Some of the (Ukrainian grain) money was spent on the thirteen fortified regions which were built along the Soviet Unionīs western frontier, in a strip of territory unofficially called the Stalin Line. A complex system of combat and supply installations, armored and built of concrete, was constructed along the 30 - 50 km deep zone; there were also reinforced underground premises to serve as storage depots and command posts.

The fortified regions were built with enormous effort and vast expense during the first two Five Year plans. In 1939 the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed. Once Poland had been partitioned, there was no longer a neutral buffer zone. Stalin could have ordered the garrisons on the line to be strengthened and additional belts of fortified zones could have been constructed behind and in front of the existing line. But in fact the existing fortified regions were dismantled. Some military buildings were handed over to collective farms for vegetable storage, but most were buried or dismantled. In the spring of 1941 powerful explosions thundered along the 1200 km line as armored firing positions were blown up.

The reason was simple: Stalin had decided to spread Bolshevism westwards, and the belt of fortifications would have blocked supply routes, creating dangerous bottlenecks for the millions of tons of ammunition, food supplies and fuel needed for the offensive. Only a week after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, Stalin played his first dirty trick. Hitler began the war with Poland as they had agreed, but Stalin stated that he was not yet ready.

Hitler found himself on his own, and immediately at war with France and Britain as well. Meanwhile, Stalin marked the conclusion of this "non-aggression" treaty by introducing military service.

A new "defensive" line was started in partitioned Poland, but although constructed very slowly and visibly, it remained a comparatively light and uncompleted series of fortifications. Mines were removed from the vicinity of bridges, and mile after mile of barbed wire was cut. Unnecessary bridges across rivers on the new frontier remained intact, and later greatly aided the German advance.

In the spring of 1941, the Germans began similar preparations. Both sides erected offensive fortifications. Before launching an attack, great masses of troops would have to be concentrated in very narrow sectors, German troops in the Suwalki and Lyublin salient, and Soviet troops in the area of Lvov and Bialystok. In order to assemble these shock groupings, the secondary sectors were denuded of troops - the lightweight fortifications prevented them from being completely exposed.

By 1941, as the last obstacles to the Red advance were removed, the Soviet Union possessed thirty separate armies, the largest military force the world had seen, and one which could not be maintained for long without mass starvation. The plundering of neighboring countries would have been the only means of paying for and justifying the existence of such a force.

Many of the best armies were not deployed to fight the Germans, but to invade virtually defenseless neutral states, as Stalin had already done throughout eastern Europe. The 9th army was concentrated on the frontier with Rumania; an assault crossing of the Danube was planned by its 14th Rifle Corps. The 12th and 18th "mountain armies" were positioned to move southwest along the Carpathian Mountains to cut Germany off from the Ploesti oilfield in Rumania, and west into Czechoslovakia, which would enable Stalin to cut the Rumania-Germany oil pipeline. Without this irreplaceable Rumanian oil, the tanks, trucks, submarines, battleships and planes which were massed far away in the west would simply grind to a halt.

The seven armies in the Second Strategic Echelon included many thousands of men who had been released from concentration camps that spring to expiate their "guilt" by fighting for the Soviets. The generals and officers were also usually former political prisoners and were desperate to prove their worth. Their lives and those of their families were at stake. They were known as the "Black Divisions" because many still wore their black Gulag uniforms. The most powerful of the Second Echelon armies was the 19th, which was transferred from the North Caucasus to approximately 150 km north of the Black Sea. It contained mountain rifle divisions which could only be used in Rumania.

They were making their way to the frontier when Germany invaded.

They were not alone. In the final preparations for the attack on the West, millions of soldiers were still heading for the front in trains. Very often their ammunition and heavy weapons were being transported separately. Huge supply dumps were stockpiled just a few miles from the German lines. Most of the airforce was similarly exposed.

For a few critical days, Stalinīs mighty invasion machine was incapable of defending itself.

Stalin believed he had convinced Hitler that the Soviet Union was truly neutral and assumed the Germans were busy finalizing an invasion of Britain. Hitlerīs conquests had created an unprecedented situation in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, France, Greece and Albania. Their armies, governments, parliaments and political parties had been destroyed. Stalinīs huge armies were in an ideal position to take over Europe, but Hitler guessed Stalinīs design so that even in 1945 the Soviets got only half of Europe, and some territory in Asia.

At a Politburo meeting on 21st June 1941 G.R.U. (Military Intelligence) chief general Golikov reported that there was a massive concentration of the German airforce on the Soviet border, enormous reserves of ammunition and a regrouping of German forces.

He even knew the name of the operation - Barbarossa."

Just think about it and give credit where credit is due: Had it not been for "Barbarossa", you might not be alive today. The Bolshevik torture chambers and death pits which would claim millions of victims in the enslaved nations of the East would have spread throughout the West as well. This ghoul called "New World Order", now looming to swallow and spit out your children, was in the wings already in 1941, poised to unleash itself on Christianity.
Much of the content below is based on the 1984 Victor Suvorow book with the English title "The Icebreaker: Who Really Started World War II" as summarized in an insightful essay by Paul Ballard:

"Stalin at first refused to believe what was happening. He had established a sophisticated intelligence network to give him long advance warning of a decision by Hitler to wage war in the frozen wastes of Russia.

His key indicators were breathtakingly simple. For an army to survive the winter, every man would have to possess a thick sheepskin greatcoat. Soviet agents therefore kept a close watch for a sudden rise in the demand for sheepskins and a fall in the price of mutton as slaughtering was stepped up.

Meanwhile, other agents scoured rifle ranges for scraps of cloth used by German soldiers to clean their weapons. Soviet chemists then analyzed them in order to find out whether the Germans had developed a gun oil which would not freeze in the harsh weather.

There was still no sign of such an oil - or a non-freezing diesel engine oil - in June 1941, so Stalin was convinced that Hitler had no intention of attacking him. Hitler would have his forces concentrated in France, or even fighting in England, as the Red Army cut off their only source of fuel, crashed into the virtually undefended Reich and then "liberated" the whole of western Europe.

Hitler, of course, had not ordered such preparations because he had not planned on a war against Russia. Only in the spring of 1941 did intelligence reports of troop concentrations and Soviet moves to cut Germanyīs oil lifeline with Rumania force Hitler to take the desperate chance of opening a second front with a hasty pre-emptive strike.

Initially, at least, the gamble paid off. Caught in transit or crammed together in their own start-off positions, whole Soviet Armies were annihilated. Most of the air force was destroyed on the ground. The thousands of lightly armoured assault tanks were virtually helpless; forced to operate in the roadless wastes of Russia, they were easily outmaneuvered by the Germansī conventional cross-country tanks.

All this makes "Icebreaker" the definitive account of the build-up to Operation Groza ("Thunderstorm"), the Soviet conquest of Europe scheduled to begin early in the morning of Sunday 6th July 1941.

Suvorovīs revelations about the massive expansion of the NKVD - blood-soaked forerunner of the KGB - are particularly chilling, as these killers would have moved in behind the assault troops to liquidate "class enemies." The Bolshevik torture chambers and death pits which claimed millions of victims in the enslaved nations of the East would have spread throughout the West as well. With Germany and France under the Soviet jackboot, Italy and Spain would quickly have fallen, too. And Stalinīs one million paratroopers would have made short work of seizing the airfields of southern England to clear the way for a full-scale invasion.

Lenin and his pupil Stalin never made any secret of their desire for a second World War to establish a Communist Europe. For the fact that this monstrous plan failed, the democrats, simpering priests and court historians have no one to thank but Adolf Hitler. Without the man they love to hate, they would have been first against the wall."

OVERWATCH
01-03-2006, 06:30 AM
If Hitler had never been born, assuming everything else progressed normally, Communism would have been in control of all of europe (including britain) around the era of WWII.

Russian armies are historically much stronger on the counteroffensive then the offensive, if Stalin attacked without Hitler invading you would not be dealing with the red army of 1945 but the red army that got so badly pwn3d in Finland. Hitler's defeat gave Eastern Europe to the reds and gave the communist internationally( outside the US) a great deal of respect.

I agree, Stalin's purges weakened the already lackadaisical Soviet officer corps, causing them to be better yes-men than soldiers.

The invasion of the Soviet Union allowed the Soviets to deal with the Germans on their own home ground and under far better conditions than they would have had trying to bumbleblitz their way across the German plain.

Hitler worked a 'miracle'(or an armageddon, depending on your view)- he turned the Red Army away from being a fumbling mass of fools, and into an experienced wave of blood and steel.

OVERWATCH
01-03-2006, 06:36 AM
If Stalin was on the eve of invading Romania or elsewherein Europe, why were the best tanks for exploiting a breakthrough, the T-34, hanging around Moscow?

DeathtoPrejudice
01-03-2006, 06:42 AM
Stalin, as portrayed by his military decisions of the day. Wasn't the brightest person in regards to anything military.

Of course, his armies would have no trouble wiping out the third-rate nations of eastern europe, third-rate in regards to military capability. Hell, Hitler did with his puny Panzer II's, I's, and 38(t)'s, so no doubt Stalins T-26s, and BT's would have much trouble either.

Ahknaton
01-03-2006, 06:51 AM
What's the bet that if eugenics found favour amongst the cultural elite of society it would be denounced by some WNs as "jewgenics"?

OVERWATCH
01-03-2006, 06:55 AM
Stalin, as portrayed by his military decisions of the day. Wasn't the brightest person in regards to anything military.

Of course, his armies would have no trouble wiping out the third-rate nations of eastern europe, third-rate in regards to military capability. Hell, Hitler did with his puny Panzer II's, I's, and 38(t)'s, so no doubt Stalins T-26s, and BT's would have much trouble either.

The equipment quality factor is minor; the factor of overriding importance is the human one. Needless to say, the professional German soldiers of 1939-1941 were far more superior than their Russian counterparts, in every way possible, except one, and that is that the Red Army were masters of battlefield infiltration.

Nonetheless, infiltration tactics alone wouldn't win the war against people on very tenable ground(the Carpathians) and who are motivated to save their families, countries, and lives from Soviet domination. Plus they would likely be able to count on old Adolf to at least send lots of highly effective volunteers, if not ordering a crushing blow to the Soviet flank.

DeathtoPrejudice
01-03-2006, 07:01 AM
Adolf would be overly involved in the British isles, the invasion of britain. Leaving mainland europe vulnerable.

The russians being ill-prepared for a fight, even on the offensive is their trademark. And they had the numbers, and technilogical superiority over all the eastern nations of Europe.

OVERWATCH
01-03-2006, 07:11 AM
Adolf would be overly involved in the British isles, the invasion of britain. Leaving mainland europe vulnerable.

The russians being ill-prepared for a fight, even on the offensive is their trademark. And they had the numbers, and technilogical superiority over all the eastern nations of Europe.

Invading Britain was a pretty tall order I think. Plus, had the Red Army recieved a Finland-like defeat, again, but on a larger scale in Southeast Europe,well, those things just don't bode well for diverse and potentially unstable regimes like the USSR.

Watzy
01-05-2006, 06:55 PM
I won't lie and say that I'm in support of the eugenics movement. The eugenics movement of the late 19th century and early 20th century gave birth to Nordicism after all.

Indeed. Those who aren't extremely Nordic, or extremely rich or of the pure Germanic stock should think twice before condoning eugenicists. There's nothing noble about the goals of eugenicists. The 'science' of Eugenics was designed to eliminate all the non-Nordic and non-prosperous people so that the small Anglo-Germanic industrialist clique can inherit the earth.

In his new book "Seeds of Destruction" William F Engdahl explained how the project of eugenicists survived, working under more subtle terms and methods such as "population control".

Here's an enlightening article about the connection of the American eugenicists and the German Nazis (financed by Anglo-Industrialist elite) on the project to eliminate all of those 'less desirable':

Eugenics and the Nazis -- the California connection:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/09/ING9C2QSKB1.DTL

Hakluyt
01-05-2006, 07:39 PM
Power to da People Zvaci. Don't let those Anglo-Germano-Nordics push the little people around.

Watzy
01-05-2006, 08:19 PM
Power to da People Zvaci. Don't let those Anglo-Germano-Nordics push the little people around.

How silly of me. Prostitutes, vagrants and idiots should be happy to voluntarily walk into Rockefeller's eugenic gas chambers along with meds, east-Euros, niggers and Jews!

Ixtab
01-05-2006, 09:06 PM
I won't lie and say that I'm in support of the eugenics movement. The eugenics movement of the late 19th century and early 20th century gave birth to Nordicism after all.a.) Eugenics, in its heyday, was equally popular among Leftists (the Fabians, H.G. Wells, even certain Bolshiviks were all enthusiastic about the possibilities of Eugenics). It was more democratic in spirit, and of a very different nature from the Eugenics of the Right. It wasn't tainted with Nordicism.
b.) What is necessarily wrong with Nordicism?
c.) Nearly all sciences and social philosophies seem bizarre in their infancy by modern standards. Early psychology and geology were even more outlandish than the fringes of the Eugenics movement in the early 20th century.