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Petr
12-25-2005, 10:15 PM
I got this link from "Little Geneva":


http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-12/22/content_505587.htm


Stones indicate earlier Christian link?

By Wang Shanshan (China Daily)

Updated: 2005-12-22 06:34


One day in a spring, an elderly man walked alone on a stone road lined by young willows in Xuzhou in East China's Jiangsu Province. At the end of the road was a museum that few people have heard of.

As he wandered into the dimly-lit gallery, he was stunned by what he saw. Was he standing, he asked himself, in front of the famous Gates of Paradise in Florence?

Wang Weifan, a 78-year-old scholar of early Christian history in China, said he saw images from Bible stories similar to those engraved in the doors of the Baptistry of St John. But in Florence he didn't.

Even so, the art objects could be more precious in their own way if the early Christian clues that Wang believes he detected can ever be confirmed. They are from the Eastern Han Dynasty (AD 25-220), China's parallel to the Roman Empire, and almost a millennium older than the gilt-bronze gates of Florence.

"There was Christmas. There was Genesis. There was Paradise Lost. They were on display, one by one, on 10 stone bas-reliefs excavated from an aristocrat's tomb in the Han Dynasty," said Wang, a professor of theology at the Jinling Theological Seminary in Nanjing, as he told his story to China Daily.

Before Wang's discovery tour to the Han Dynasty Stone Relief Museum in 2002, no one seriously believed that, merely 100 or so years after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, his teachings could have reached as far as to China.

There were myths. There was legend. But hardly any evidence.

But now Wang says the early Christian connection with China no longer seems entirely groundless. "It really happened," he said.

The reliefs were carved on the stone tablets from two tombs, discovered in 1995 at a place called Jiunudun, or "Terrace of Nine Women," in suburban Xuzhou. Many stone reliefs were found when tombs at the site were first excavated in 1954.

Art historians have long believed that the stone carvings portray the tomb owners in their life after death in ancient China. The styles and the themes were simliar to those found in Shandong Province.

But Wang has a different interpretation.

"The Bible stories were told on the stones in a kind of time sequence," he said.

One of the reliefs showed the sun, the moon, living creatures in the seas, birds of heaven, wild animals and reptiles - images that Wang linked to the Creation story in Genesis.

"Another one depicted a woman taking fruit from 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil' and a snake biting her right sleeve," Wang said. "It also included the angel sent by God to guard the tree. That's similar to the 'Eve Tricked by the Serpent' story in the Bible."

The professor thought at first it was Judaism in which the owner of the tomb possibly believed, but what he saw in two of the stones changed everything.

"There were four fishermen in the picture," Wang said of an image in the eighth stone. "It reminded me of the story in the New Testament about Peter, Andrew, James and John, (four of Jesus' disciples) who were all fishermen."

And in the sixth stone, a woman and man are sitting around what looks like a manger, with three men approaching from the left side, holding gifts, and other men queued up, kneeling, on the right. In that scene, Wang said he saw the first Christmas.

The bas-reliefs followed the artistic style of early Christianity in the Middle East, Wang said.

"Some have decorative designs of the Arabic number 8, formed by two rare animals crossing their necks. They were almost the same as designs on Uruk oval seals found in the Euphrates River and Tigris River valleys in the Middle East," he said.

Scholars agree that the date of the tomb is in the mid-to late Han Dynasty period, which could be anywhere from about AD 100 to 220. And it seems equally clear that the aristocrat buried in it commissioned artisans to carve the scenes.

But could he have been a Christian?

If Wang's suspicions are right, the time of Christianity's arrival in China could be as early as the end of the 1st century, more than 500 years before the widely recognized date.

However, Wang's opinion is opposed by a number of Chinese historians, archaeologists and other scholars.

Christian history

Historians currently believe that Christianity had been introduced to China by the middle of the 7th century.

In evidence is a stone stele, about 2.75 metres tall, bearing inscriptions about an AD 635 meeting between a Nestorian Christian monk named Alopen from Syria and Chinese Emperor Taizong (599-649) of the Tang Dynasty (618-907).

The stele, excavated in 1625 in Xi'an, capital of Northwest China's Shaanxi Province, documented Taizong's approval to spread Christianity. Xi'an, called Chang'an in the Tang era, was the capital of one of the most open and prosperous dynasties in Chinese history.

Nestorians were believed to be the first Western expatriates in China, according to Wang Meixiu, professor at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

But the Nestorians had little time to convert the Han. Emperor Wu Zong abolished Buddhism and other religions except Taoism in AD 845.

Christianity flourished to different extents three other times before the 20th century: during the Yuan (1271-1368), late Ming (1368-1644) and early Qing (1644-1911) dynasties, and after the First Opium War (1840-42).

Both Nestorians and the Catholics arrived in the second wave in the 13th century, and Christianity flourished again mainly among the ruling Mongols and the ethnic minority groups.

But its influence vanished soon after the Mongols retreated to the northern grassland when the Yuan Dynasty fell.

Catholic missionaries who arrived from the 16th to the 18th centuries converted a number of Han including a Chinese prime minister named Xu Guangqi (1562-1633), but their achievements failed to continue in the early 19th century for complicated reasons, Wang Meixiu said.

In the late 19th century, Christianity flourished for its fourth time in China with the arrival of Western colonialists.

St Thomas in Asia

But as it often happens, legends that do not go exactly in line with the official history have been handed down for millennia.

One of them concerns the arrival of Christianity in China in the 1st century, said Gu Weimin, historian and professor at Shanghai University, in his book "Christianity and Modern Chinese Society," published by Shanghai People's Publishing House in 1996.

According to the legend, St. Thomas, one of the 12 Apostles, left Jerusalem for Babylon and from there sailed to India. He landed in Cranganore, now called Kodungallur, on the southwestern coast of India, about 1,300 kilometres south of Bombay.

Legend says that after Thomas established a base of operations there, he headed for China. He was killed in India in AD 72 after he returned from the trip.

Both J. Xaveriana (1506-52) and Matteo Ricci (1552-1610), two of the most influential missionaries from the Society of Jesus, claimed in their writings that they found evidence supporting that Thomas had made his way to China successfully. They said they were quoting evidence from documents in Indian and Roman churches, Gu said.

"If St Thomas really made it, he should have left some clues for us to find," he added.

The controversy

One of those clues could be the 10 stone bas-reliefs in the aristocrat's tomb, which, archaeologists have determined through various methods including carbon dating, was built during the Eastern Han Dynasty.

"The owner of the tomb, about whom little has been known, was probably a Christian, though he was not necessarily converted by St Thomas or his disciples," Professor Wang Weifan said.

"It was natural that people had a statement made in their tombs of their identities," remarked Qi Tieying, president of the Yanjing Seminary in Beijing. "It happened that Christians usually buried a copy of the Bible with them.

"The tomb owner probably commissioned artisans to make the beautiful stones stating his beliefs."

Other scholars, however, doubt Wang Weifan's opinion. About Wang's linking the reliefs to the Bible stories. Zhu Qingsheng, professor at Peking University, said: "Stone reliefs from the Han Dynasty can be interpreted in too many ways because they are all vague and dim."

And Xin Lixiang, director of the department of archaeology at the National Museum of China, was more direct.

"Fancy those stones having anything to do with Christianity!" he said. "I am more than familiar with those reliefs in the Jiunudun Tomb and cannot imagine their telling the Bible stories. It's impossible."

Other Chinese theological researchers also thought the Nanjing-based professor's interpretation "hard to believe."

"Why was such an evidence of early Christianity was found only in Xuzhou?" said Wang Meixiu, of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. "The city lies inland, away from the ancient route of communications between the East and West. How could the ancient Christians travel there without leaving any trace in those towns along the route?"

Xin cited a parallel in the arrival of Buddhism to China.

"As often was the case, foreign religions first arrived in China through international transportation," he said. "There were recent pieces of evidence of the arrival of Buddhism during the Han Dynasty, also earlier than it is commonly thought. But they were all collected from excavation sites in coastal cities, such as Lianyungang and Yinan, both on the East China Sea. Little, so far as I know, could be obtained from Xuzhou, which is more than 250 kilometres away from the sea."

Besides their location in an inland city, the date of the reliefs is also problematic when considered as evidence of the arrival of Christianity, according to Tong Xun, professor at Beijing Union University.

"The timing of the 1st century is too early to be true," she said. "Christianity was far from being well-established then. Even at its place of origin, it spread mainly among the disadvantaged people in society."

Despite the many objections of the other scholars, Wang's discovery will definitely arouse the interest of historians in the Chinese Christian community, who will take up the research, said Qi, of Yanjing Seminary.

"They are not going to say no to Professor Wang without making investigations, because he is the 'flagship' historian in the Chinese Christian community," Qi said. "He is a master not only of the Christian history in China, but also of Chinese art and culture.

"There could be an earthquake in the world's Christian community and probably outside it if Professor Wang is right.

"World history could be rewritten."

Fade the Butcher
12-25-2005, 10:36 PM
The Portuguese were looking for a legendary Christian community founded by St. Thomas in India when they arrived there in the fifteenth century.

Kodos
12-26-2005, 12:41 AM
The Portuguese were looking for a legendary Christian community founded by St. Thomas in India when they arrived there in the fifteenth century.

Weren't they looking for the great empire of "Prester John"?

Kodos
12-26-2005, 12:43 AM
There may have been 10 or so christians in China before Nestor but not too many before him( Nestorian christianity used to be big in the Orient though, with for instance 1/3 of the horsemen of Kublai Khan supposedly being Nestorian christians).

Fade the Butcher
12-28-2005, 05:16 PM
Weren't they looking for the great empire of "Prester John"?Yeah. I've read something about that.

Kodos
12-28-2005, 05:20 PM
Yeah. I've read something about that.

They also though Ghenghis Khan was a christian king( who they called King David) he did pwn muslims though( the mongols hated muslims until one of the stupid IlKhans converted).

Fade the Butcher
12-28-2005, 05:28 PM
The Mongols sacked Baghdad itself. Some idiot posted on Stormfront the other day that Islam never recovered from the Crusades.

Kodos
12-28-2005, 05:30 PM
The Mongols sacked Baghdad itself. Some idiot posted on Stormfront the other day that Islam never recovered from the Crusades.

We should have named the invasion of Iraq "operation Hulagu Khan"... there wouldn't have been much of an insurgency.

Fade the Butcher
12-28-2005, 05:36 PM
Good thing we have an 'exit strategy'. The U.S. military can't put down the insurgency, but the Iraqi military and police will do it.

Atlas
12-28-2005, 05:40 PM
Good thing we have an 'exit strategy'. The U.S. military can't put down the insurgency, but the Iraqi military and police will do it.


Hmm as you probably know, many iraqis working for the police on the American side are considered as traitor, I can understand why many hesitate to join up. Like those terror strike on the job interview place.

Petr
12-28-2005, 05:46 PM
Did you know that for a short period of time, Western Crusaders, Middle Eastern Christians and Mongols actually joined forces in an attempt to crush the Islamic power in the Middle East for good?

Definitely one those quirks of history worth examining!


“Hulagu was bitterly hostile to Islam, and much influenced by his Buddhist and Nestorian Christian entourage. His wife Dokaz Khatun and his principal lieutenant Kitbogha or Kitbuka were Christians, and a portable tent-church travelled with him, in which mass was celebrated daily. Mongke is said to have promised the Christian King of Armenia, who visited Karakorum in 1255, that the Mongols would restore Jerusalem to the Crusaders when they had destroyed the power of the Muslims. The Asian Christians were filled with extravagant hopes and expected the rapid downfall of Islam: the European nations were less sanguine.”

“ The Mongol army, in composition more Turkish than Mongol, and including contingents from the Christian kingdoms of Armenia and Georgia, was probably the largest, best equipped and best disciplined that had ever issued from the steppes of Central Asia.”

“Hulagu ordered the Caliph to come in person to his camp, with his family and retinue, to tell his people to stop fighting, and to give up his wealth and treasure. His commands were obeyed, and the metropolis of Islam was abandoned to the merciless bloodlust of the conquerors. The palaces, colleges and mosques were plundered and burnt; the cultural accumulation of five centuries perished in the flames, and the appalling figure of 800,000 is the lowest estimate given of the number of men, women and children who were slaughtered in the streets and houses. The Christians, gathered in a church under their patriarch, alone were spared.”

“The Christians of the East hailed the ruin of Baghdad (1258) in the spirit of the 'Babylon is fallen, is fallen! ' of the Book of Revelation, and looked forward to the end of half a millennium of Muslim domination. Hulagu's armies were soon in Syria: Aleppo resisted, was stormed and the non-Christian population massacred; Damascus gave in without a fight, three Christian leaders (the Mongol commander Kitbogha, the King of Armenia and the Frankish Count Bohemund of Antioch) riding through its streets and forcing Muslims to bow to the cross;”


Longer description here:

http://www.iun.edu/~historyn/Turkmong.htm

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Here is a description of the destruction of the Baghdad Caliphate by Mongols in 1258, narrated to a monk chronicler by an Armenian Christian prince who participated in the campaign at the side of Mongols and was an eyewitness:


http://rbedrosian.com/kg12.htm


60. The destruction of Baghdad.


In the year 707 of the Armenian Era [1258], Mongke-Khan, the great king of the kings of the earth, conqueror of the world, mustered a countless host and went to a distant land in the southeast against a people called the Nayngas. For this people had rebelled from him and did not pay him taxes like the other lands. The Nayngas were warlike men, fortified by their land; and they were idol-worshippers. Furthermore they devoured their old men and women. The whole clan of sons, grandsons and great grandsons would assemble [314] and would skin their aged parents through the mouth. They would remove the flesh and bones, cooking and eating them, leaving no leftovers. Out of the skin they make a bag which they fill with wine and from which all of them drink using the [deceased's] male member. However, only relatives do this, and none other, since they alone were sired [g377] by the deceased and it is theirs alone to eat and drink of him. The skull they encase in gold and drink from it for an entire year.

Mongke-Khan went against them in battle, crushed and forcibly subjugated them. But on the way home, death pangs gripped him and he died. His brother Arigh Boke (Arik' Bugha) seized the throne.

Now Hulegu (who was his brother and had been appointed head of the troops in the East by him) commanded all those subject to him to go against the Tachik capital, Baghdad, which was the seat of the Tachik dominion.

The king who sat in Baghdad was not called sultan or melik as the Turkish, Iranian or Kurdish autocrats customarily are, but caliph, that is, a descendant of Mahmet. The great Hulegu went against the caliph with a countless multitude [composed] of all the peoples subject to him. This [315] was done in the autumn and winter seasons because of the severe heat of that country [in the summer]. Prior to his departure [g378] he ordered Baiju-noyin and the troops with him in the land of [the sultan of] Rum to go and surround the great Tigris River on which the city of Baghdad was built, so that no one flee by boat from the city to Ctesiphon or to the more secure Basra. They immediately obeyed the command, tying pontoon bridges across the great river and sinking between [the surface of the] river and its bed sturdy fences with iron hooks and pipes so that no one depart the city swimming without them knowing about it.

Now Caliph Must'asar [translator's note: in fact, the last caliph was al-Musta'sim], who resided in the city proudly and presumptuously sent many troops against those guarding the river. [The caliph's men] were under the command of a chief named Dawdar [davat-dar, "vice-chancellor"] ostikan of his house. Dawdar went and first triumphed, killing some three thousand T'at'ars. When evening fell he sat eating and drinking without a care. And he sent messengers to Caliph Must'asar saying: "I defeated all of them, and tomorrow I will do away with the few survivors."

Now the crafty and ingenious T'at'ar army spent the entire [g379] night arming and organizing. They surrounded the Tachik army. [316] Among the T'at'ars was prince Zak'are, son of Shahnshah. At daybreak they put their swords to work, destroying the entire group and throwing them into the river. Only a few men escaped.

That same morning the great Hulegu surrounded the city of Baghdad, stationing everyone an arm's length from the wall [and telling them] to demolish it and guard well that none escape. He sent the valiant Prhosh [Xaghbakean] and others as emissaries to the caliph, so that he would come out obediently and pay taxes to the Khan. [The caliph] gave a stern reply full of insults, claiming to be lord of sea and land, and boasting about the [magical] banner of Mahmet, saying: "It is here and, if I touch it, you and the entire world will be destroyed. You are a dog, a Turk. Why should I pay taxes to you or obey you?"

However, Hulegu did not become aggrevated because of the insults nor did he write any boasts. He merely said: "God knows what He does." Then he ordered the wall demolished; and they demolished it. He said to rebuild it again and guard it carefully. And they did so. [g380]

[317] The city was full of soldiers and people. For seven days they stood on the walls but no one shot arrows at them nor were swords used, either by the citizens or by the T'at'ar soldiers. But after seven days the citizens began to request peace and to come [to Hulegu] with affection and submission.

And Hulegu ordered that this be done [that peace be made]. Then countless multitudes came through the city gates, climbing over each other to see who would reach him first. [Hulegu] divided up among the soldiers those who came out and ordered [the soldiers] to take them far from the city and to kill them secretly so that the others would not know. They killed all of them.

Four days later Caliph Must'asar [i.e., al-Musta'sim] also emerged with his two sons, with all the grandees and much gold, silver, and precious stones as fitting gifts for Hulegu and his nobles. At first [Hulegu] honored him, reproaching him for dallying and not coming to him quickly. But then he asked the caliph: "What are you, God or man?" And the caliph responded: "I am a man, and the servant of God." Hulegu asked: "Well, did God tell you to insult me and to call me a dog and not to give food and drink to God's dog? Now in hunger the dog of God shall devour you." And he [318] killed him with his own hands. "That," he said, "is an honor for you, because I killed you myself and did not give you to another for killing." He ordered his son [g381] to slay one of the caliph's sons while he gave the other son as a sacrifice to the Tigris River, saying: "It did not harm us but was our collaborator in killing the senseless ones." And he said: "This man caused much blood to flow through pride. Let him go and answer to God and may we be innocent." He also killed other grandees.

[B][Hulegu] then ordered the troops guarding the walls to descend and kill the inhabitants of the city, great and small. [The Mongols] organized as though harvesting a field, and cut down countless, innumerable multitudes of men, women, and children. For forty days they did not stop. Then they grew weary and stopped killing. Their hands grew tired; they took the others for sale. They destroyed mercilessly.[/B]

[B]However, Hulegu's wife, the senior Khatun, named Doquz Khatun (Toghuz xat'un) was a Christian. She spared the Christians of Baghdad, Nestorians and other denominations and beseeched her husband not to kill them. And he spared them with their goods and property.[/B]

[319] [Hulegu] ordered all his soldiers to take the goods and property of the city. They all loaded up with gold, [g382] silver, precious stones, pearls, and costly garments, for it was an extremely rich city, unequalled on earth.

[Hulegu] himself took as his share the caliph's treasures--three thousand camel loads; and there was no counting the horses, mules and asses. Other houses, full of treasure, he sealed with his ring and left guards. For he was unable to take everything, since there was so much. Five hundred fifteen years had elapsed since that city was built by the Ishmaelite Jap'r in 194 A.E. [A.D. 745] on the Tigris River above Ctesiphon (Katisbon), about five day's journey above Babylon, and it had taken everything into its kingdom like an insatiable blood-sucker, swallowing up the entire world. It was destroyed in 707 A.E. [1258] paying the blood price for the blood it had caused to flow and for the evil it had wrought. When its measure of sin was filled up before the Omniscient God, He repaid it justly, strictly, and truthfully. And the [g383]arrogant and fanatical kingdom of the Tachiks ended after a duration of six hundred and forty seven years. Baghdad was taken on the first day of Lent, on Monday of the month of Nawasard, the twentieth of the month by the moveable [calendrical system].

[B][320] All this was narrated to us by prince Hasan called Prosh, son of the pious Vasak, son of Haghbak, brother of Papak' and Mkdem, father of Mkdem, Papak', Hasan and Vasak who was an eyewitness to the events and also heard about events with his own ears, [a man] enjoying great honor in the Khan's eyes. [/B]

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Petr

Fade the Butcher
12-28-2005, 05:50 PM
I have a book about the Mongols on my bookshelf that I have been meaning to read for weeks now. I still don't know that much about Eastern European history.

Kodos
12-29-2005, 05:56 AM
Did you know that for a short period of time, Western Crusaders, Middle Eastern Christians and Mongols actually joined forces in an attempt to crush the Islamic power in the Middle East for good?


Yep.