A surreal 17th-century Chinese poem

[Petr]

(The very first post I made on the old Phora forum in the early 2004 was concerned with this poem!)


http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.CHAP3.HTM


"Observe the bacchanalia of blood by Chang Hsien-chung when, near the end of the Ming Dynasty in 1644, he conquered Szechwan province and in Chengtu declared himself emperor of the Great Western Kingdom. The Chinese chronicles say that when the scholars rejected his imperial claim he immediately had them all massacred. Then he set about destroying all the merchants, then all the women and all the officials. Finally he ordered his own soldiers to kill each other. He ordered the feet of the officers' wives to be cut off and made a mound of-them, and at the top of the mound he placed the feet of his favorite concubines. For some reason he was obsessed with ears and feet, and since it was too much trouble to bring the bodies of the villagers who lived in remote outlying districts to Chengtu, he ordered his private guards to bring him their ears and feet, and he carefully counted them. When the massacre was over, he ordered that there should be placed in a prominent position in Chengtu an inscription carved in stone, reading:

Heaven brings forth innumerable things to help man.
Man has nothing with which to recompense Heaven.
Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.31


Petr

[Petr]

Heaven brings forth innumerable things to help man.
Man has nothing with which to recompense Heaven.
Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.31

My Christian interpretation: this poem reflects the desperation of human race as it realizes its infinite distance from the divine world, and yet feels that it is there, but unreachable. The only way out for a fallen man is to indulge in furious, demonic destruction and ultimately self-destruction.

Only Jesus Christ can serve as a bridge between this world and divine world, between God and man. He is the way, truth and life.

Without Him we are all basically on the same level and in the same position as Chang Hsien-chung was .


Petr

[Petr]

pinging...

[Petr]

A 19th-century French philosophical writer Edgar Quinet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Quinet) commented on this Chinese "Heaven-complex":

http://www.archive.org/details/edgarquinethise02heatgoog

pp. 306-307

Here, then, is a people so absorbed in its books, that it has forgotten the heavens above its head and the rest of the human race. For want of a tie with the infinite source of renewal, its life is worn out as soon as it commences, so that China is at once the oldest and youngest society in the world. Its distinctive trait is, that from its cradle it has represented rationalism in the East. Its god, without form or voice, is but the supreme heavens; the Void, but the void without either depth, or love, or hatred. The people are one; no castes, scarcely any traces of slavery, and up to a certain point no polygamy; but their god is without life, without personality, without soul. In the canonical books, amongst the words, warnings, councils of kings and sages, God never speaks or appears. Without preference, without inclination for any one, he is impartial as death; he has become in reality nothing but a political fiction placed at the head of the Constitution. Would you measure all that earth can do without heaven, life without immortality, man without God, study China.

Nothing being involved in such a religion, it neither progresses nor declines. Governments change, nowhere more; twenty-two dynasties have successively disappeared; but at the end of all these revolutions the primitive institutions of China remain immutable. In like manner, the West will be eternally condemned to turn Ixion-like on the revolutionary wheel, should the religious principle become similarly attenuated in Europe.

Six hundred years before the Christian era, the Emperors caused a collection of popular songs to be made. With the exception of a few words addressed furtively to the spirit, patron of the family, of a cry in a moment of distress to the blue heavens, quickly followed by a sceptical reflection, or of a prayer to the Void, these songs surprised on the lips of soldiers, labourers, and hirelings, discover no trace of a God who sees and tries the hearts of men. Each suffers, complains alone; without those cries of distress which rise from every condition of society, from the beggar to the emperor, finding any common centre. They resemble, if such a thing were possible, the Hebrew Psalms without Jehovah. They are the last efforts of Chinese poetry; wanting sacred wings, it fell to the ground as soon as it attempted to fly. Man cries out, God holds his peace, and the silence is eternal. 1

1 How true this is may be seen by reference to Dr. James Legge's "She-King, or the Book of Chinese Poetry." Dr. Legge, as all interested in the translation of the Bible into Chinese are aware, has been the advocate of the opinion that the Chinese had the idea of the true God, the One, Supreme Being, in opposition to Dr. Boone, the American Missionary Bishop in China, who denied that they had. Dr. Legge thinks that these poems abundantly confirm his conclusion. But abundantly is too strong a word. The few references to a Supreme Ruler are often under the vague title of Heaven; and if Shang-ti is sometimes credited with good dispositions towards men, he is as often spoken of in terms of the utmost bitterness, as thus: —

"Great Heaven, unjust, the land exhausts with all these pains;
Great Heaven, unkind, these woes upon it ceaseless rains.

O Great unpitying Heaven, our troubles have no close!
With every month they grow; men's minds know no repose,
My heart with grief is drunk." . . . — P. aas, II. iv. vil.

Or again, —

"Revere Heaven's changing moods with fear profound." —P. 3X), HI. ii. X.

It is not surprising after this to learn that these odes do not speak of the worship which was paid to God, unless it be incidentally.

[Petr]

Without preference, without inclination for any one, he is impartial as death; he has become in reality nothing but a political fiction placed at the head of the Constitution.
In this depiction of Shang Ti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi), the Deism-flavored Chinese god of heaven, it's as if Quinet were also describing the modern American PC-Unitarian deity whose only real job would seem to be guaranteeing sacred Equality for all...

In like manner, the West will be eternally condemned to turn Ixion-like on the revolutionary wheel, should the religious principle become similarly attenuated in Europe.
And here Quinet was clearly on the same page as thinkers like Dmitry Merezhkovsky, who likewise feared the "spiritual Chinafication" of post-Christian Western societies:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42616&highlight=dmitry


Petr

[Lionheart]

My Christian interpretation: this poem reflects the desperation of human race as it realizes its infinite distance from the divine world, and yet feels that it is there, but unreachable. The only way out for a fallen man is to indulge in furious, demonic destruction and ultimately self-destruction.

Only Jesus Christ can serve as a bridge between this world and divine world, between God and man. He is the way, truth and life.

Without Him we are all basically on the same level and in the same position as Chang Hsien-chung was .


Petr
Here's a good one:

TO Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love
All pray in their distress;
And to these virtues of delight
Return their thankfulness.

For Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love
Is God, our Father dear,
And Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love
Is man, His child and care.

For Mercy has a human heart,
Pity a human face,
And Love, the human form divine,
And Peace, the human dress.

Then every man, of every clime,
That prays in his distress,
Prays to the human form divine,
Love, Mercy, Pity, Peace.

And all must love the human form,
In heathen, Turk, or Jew;
Where Mercy, Love, and Pity dwell
There God is dwelling too.

What do you think, Petr? Does God show himself through the goodness of man?

[banjo_billy]

To the Number One Daughter of the Wang Family
by Cheng Hsieh (Ch'ing Dynasty)

Once we rode bamboo stick horses
Back and forth between your house and mine.

Still I remember curly pigtails covering your neck.
Rouge dabbed on your forehead.

Your mother led you by the hand,
Your father carried you piggyback.

Sometimes, you put on boy's clothes.
Though you were very small, my heart hurt for you.

After school, when you got home before dark,
You'd come up to my red room asking:
"Is the wild quince in bloom?"
"Have you seen a goldfinch, yet?"
And beg me for a brush pen
To paint your eyebrows.

Twenty years over the world, a long-time wanderer!
And everything that's happened, like a flaw of wind,
passing dream, mere rain and cloud, dividing us.

Today, meeting again in this room,
We still keep -- shall I say? -- certain affections
together with some evidence of sociability.

Dear lady! do you remember years ago
When you were shy and small,
It needed only a word from me
to get you all worked up
And your cheeks would turn bright pink?




I'd give my right eye to see just that again!

[banjo_billy]

"Answering Vice-Prefect Chang"

In my later years I care for nothing but quietness
All things now inconsequent to my heart
I take thought for myself
No splendid plans
I only know
I'll go back to my house in the woods
Pine wind blowing loosening my sash
Mountain moon on my hands playing the lute
You ask if I've construed the Poles of Being
Listen! a fisherman's song going far up the river



-- Wang Wei (T'ang Dynasty)

[banjo_billy]

Recruiting Officer at Shih-Hao Village
by Tu Fu (T'ang Dynasty)

Came at dusk into Shih-hao Village.
Draft officer there rounding up people by night.
Old man climbed over the wall escaped.
Old woman came out the door, staring.

Officer roared, angry as a bull!
Old woman cried enough to twist your bowels!
I heard her.
She went up and spoke to him:
"I had three sons on the border at Yeh.
"The first one sent me a letter.
My other two sons a while back killed in battle.
Survivors lucky to be alive at all.
The dead gone for good.
There are no more men in this house.
Only my grandson at the breast.
His mother stayed here to look after him,
In and out of the house
Without a decent skirt on her legs."

"I'm an old woman, weak in the back.
But please, Sir!
Let me follow you when you return tonight
Hurrying to meet the draft at Ho-yang.
I'll be in time to cook a morning meal
For the soldiers."

Night late. Talk dwindled away.
I seemed to hear low sobbing.
At dawn, resumed my journey.
The old man alone,
When I said good-bye to him.

[banjo_billy]

Setting brush to paper has always been hard
because I want perfection:
Each poem I'll change a thousand times
before I am content.
The matron, it seems, continues to act
like an adolescent girl --
until her hair is perfectly combed
no one's allowed to look.

In snow and mud the goose leaves prints
then flies off hurriedly.
Catching sight, it's hard to keep
my old eyes from reddening;
A letter from my family, written sixty years past,
suddenly falls floating from the pages of my book.

Become an immortal? Become a Buddha?
-- It's all so hard to tell!
I'll just go and transform again
in the Creator's furnace.
But if I do appear before the Emperor of Jade,
I'll ask, "Now, really, beyond the sky,
is there another sky?"



-- Yuan Mei, 1716-1798 AD, Ching Dynasty

[banjo_billy]

MEANDERING RIVER

Spring diminished with each petal in flight,
these ten thousand wind-tossed flakes
overwhelm me with grief.

Now that the last blossoms are passing before my eyes
(All that anguish!), I can't afford to scrimp on wine.

Kingfishers nest in small, lakeside pavilions.
Beside stately tombs at the park's edge, unicorns lounge.

Joy is the nature of things.
Look closely -- where is
This fleeting consequence you've tangled your life in?

Day after day, I pawn spring clothes when court ends
And return from the river thoroughly drunk.

By now, wine debts await me wherever I go.
But then, life's seventy years
have rarely ever been lived out.

And shimmering butterflies are plunging deep
into blossoms here.
Dragonflies quavering in air prick the water.

Drift wide, O wind and light -- sail together
Where we kindred in this moment will never part.



-- Tu Fu, 712-770 A.D., Tang Dynasty

[HNIC]

My Christian interpretation: this poem reflects the desperation of human race as it realizes its infinite distance from the divine world, and yet feels that it is there, but unreachable. The only way out for a fallen man is to indulge in furious, demonic destruction and ultimately self-destruction.

Only Jesus Christ can serve as a bridge between this world and divine world, between God and man. He is the way, truth and life.

Without Him we are all basically on the same level and in the same position as Chang Hsien-chung was .


Petr

My White interpretation: you're bat-shit insane. Please do all a favor and lock yourself up in a mental hospital.

[Kodos]

My White interpretation: you're bat-shit insane. Please do all a favor and lock yourself up in a mental hospital.

Petr knows the history of every country in detail... suffering occasional fanatical harangues is the price of having such a great historian.

[Petr]

My White interpretation: you're bat-shit insane. Please do all a favor and lock yourself up in a mental hospital.
My suggestion: leave this forum, worthless troll.


Petr

[HNIC]

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/FSB/FSB157/x28587017.jpg

"Jeeboo - yes, I can see you now! Save me Jeeboo!"

[Petr]

Could some moderator please remove junk posts from this high-brow thread?


Petr

[HNIC]

The bloodiest war in China was caused by another insane Jeeboo-worshiper, Hong Xiuquan. This war is called the Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) which led to ~20 million dead. Religious wars are almost unheard of in Asia, but are always brought about immediately by semitic religions.

Christianity leaves death and destruction in its wake. It is the true anti-spiritual cult of this planet. A cult of death and misery. Christianity takes all that which is good, twists them and reduces them to their basest values. This semitic, anti-life sect defaces and corrupts everything it comes in contact with.

And then we have morons who keep marketing it and lie that it created Europe.

[Petr]

The bloodiest war in China was caused by another insane Jeeboo-worshiper, Hong Xiuquan. This war is called the Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) which led to ~20 million dead. Religious wars are almost unheard of in Asia, but are always brought about immediately by semitic religions.

Christianity leaves death and destruction in its wake. It is the true anti-spiritual cult of this planet. A cult of death and misery. Christianity takes all that which is good, twists them and reduces them to their basest values. This semitic, anti-life sect defaces and corrupts everything it comes in contact with.

And then we have morons who keep marketing it and lie that it created Europe.
Nazitard version of shallow village-atheist narrative. :nazitard:

Petr

[HNIC]

Just admit you worship death instead of negging me. :thanks:

[Königin Luise von Preußen]

Just admit you worship death instead of negging me. :thanks:
:negrep:

stop trolling, fool.

[banjo_billy]

The bloodiest war in China was caused by another insane Jeeboo-worshiper, Hong Xiuquan. This war is called the Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) which led to ~20 million dead. Religious wars are almost unheard of in Asia, but are always brought about immediately by semitic religions. Not true. China has always had wars and rebellions that contained religious factions. Notably among them were the conflicts between Buddhists and Taoists. And these were usually opposed by the Confucian ideals of strict government and ancestor worship. The Chinese are not particularly religious by cultural tradition, so when religion of any kind enters the fray it excites them tremendously. Religion has played such an important part of various rebellions than even in modern times, the Communist government has dealt with the Fa Lun Gong movement quite harshly so as to reduce its influence. And knowing the power of religion, Jewish-Communism always destroys religion such as Buddhism in Tibet.

Christianity leaves death and destruction in its wake. It is the true anti-spiritual cult of this planet. A cult of death and misery. Christianity takes all that which is good, twists them and reduces them to their basest values. This semitic, anti-life sect defaces and corrupts everything it comes in contact with.

And then we have morons who keep marketing it and lie that it created Europe.

Unfortunately for both you and the people who read your rantings, you know little about either Christianity or the Taiping Rebellion. Like so many Christian leaders, Hong Xiuquan, offered the Chinese something that had been denied to them by their Ching Dynasty overlords as well as by both the Buddhist and Taoist sages -- personal immortality, national virtue, freedom from opium and related vices, and a Chinese-controlled nation. The Taiping Rebellion was not just a religious war, it was a war to throw off both the Ching Dynasty as well as Western control of China.

Not coincidentally, the Taiping Rebels were opposed by the very people who promoted opium, vice, and national rape of resources, that is, the Jews of the Western nations. The Taiping Rebellion was not anti-Jewish but it was opposed to the very things that made money for the Jews.

Hong Xiuquan would have been successful had it not been for the lies and slanders perpetrated by the Jews for inducing the Christians of Shanghai to turn against him.

Jesus and Hitler and Hong Xiuquan told the truth about the Jews; the Jews are devils.

[Kodos]

Unfortunately for both you and the people who read your rantings, you know little about either Christianity or the Taiping Rebellion. Like so many Christian leaders, Hong Xiuquan, offered the Chinese something that had been denied to them by their Ching Dynasty overlords as well as by both the Buddhist and Taoist sages -- personal immortality, national virtue, freedom from opium and related vices, and a Chinese-controlled nation. The Taiping Rebellion was not just a religious war, it was a war to throw off both the Ching Dynasty as well as Western control of China.

The Taipings combined Islamic and communist tendencies, a theocracy with strict sexual segregation, insistence all emblems of traditional chinese culture that might be idolatrous be destroyed, suppression of private trade...

Glad his religion didn't take over China.

Hong Xiuquan would have been successful had it not been for the lies and slanders perpetrated by the Jews for inducing the Christians of Shanghai to turn against him.

China would be a nutcase state now if it adopted Hong's religion and he pissed off ALL the European powers, he had no chance.

Whats wrong with Taoism?

[Königin Luise von Preußen]

One part insane Jeeboo-worship, one part simplistic judeophobia. You see a jew everywhere except where it matters the most - the mirror.

Further proof that deadkike worship is a sign of serious mental deficiency.


if you don't have other arguments, than to troll.. :negrep: :negrep: :negrep:


a troll is unable - generally speaking - to "mirror" society, let alone his own simplicism..

[banjo_billy]

The Taipings combined Islamic and communist tendencies, a theocracy with strict sexual segregation, insistence all emblems of traditional chinese culture that might be idolatrous be destroyed, suppression of private trade...

Where do you get those ideas? There was absolutely nothing Islamic about the Taipings. Certainly, their Christianity had its unique Chinese twist since Hong Xiuquan believed himself to actually be a brother of Jesus. Its sexual restrictions were based upon Christian monastic ideas, not upon sexual suppression for its own sake. And certainly, it was opposed to devil worship in all forms. The trade that it wished to suppress was the trade in opium, whiskey, tobacco, and fake Western medicine. All of these were Jewish monopolies just as they are today.

Glad his religion didn't take over China.

His religion would have been a great boon to China, opening it to civilizing influences without the vices that the Jews had brought in. Even though it was a sect of Christianity, over time it would have become more harmonious with the standard Christian sects of the day. And instead of the Chinese culture that was so alien to the West, it would have blended Chinese culture into something that would never have allowed Communism to flourish in the later centuries.

China would be a nutcase state now if it adopted Hong's religion and he pissed off ALL the European powers, he had no chance.

China is a nutcase state today. It is a society controlled by a subversive gang of ruthless, atheistic Communist dictators who are presently using ruthless, atheistic Capitalist methods for keeping themselves in power -- and all enabled by the Jews to this very day. The Chinese people have been conditioned to be both subserviant slaves and voracious consumers whose overriding goal is to gobble up China and spit out a hollow shell. Because of Communism, there are no real Chinese in Red China today. The real Chinese are found in Taiwan and Malasia.

Whats wrong with Taoism?

There is nothing wrong with Taoism. Except for its taints of ghost worship and sorcery, it has a lot of beautiful and wise teachings. But to be a Taoist is to accept one's disolution into the Void at death. For some people, including many Chinese, such religions as Christianity which offer the immortality of the personal Soul, then Taoism is not enough. They want to enjoy Heaven and not be amalgamated with the five elements.

[Kodos]

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3]Where do you get those ideas? There was absolutely nothing Islamic about the Taipings. Certainly, their Christianity had its unique Chinese twist since Hong Xiuquan believed himself to actually be a brother of Jesus.

He was a charismatic lunatic who amassed an armed following, much like Muhammad.

Its sexual restrictions were based upon Christian monastic ideas, not upon sexual suppression for its own sake. And certainly, it was opposed to devil worship in all forms.

Radical religious overthrow of the ancient cultural traditions of China based on the laws of a lunatic who ruled by religious proclamation, much like what Islam did in the Middle East.

Monastic restrictions were never intended for the ordinary christian, even among the most puritanical christian leaders. Not seeing women at all makes men not quite right in the head and unhappy and prone to homosexuality... No civilized society practices strict sexual segregation (I don't think they should vote, and other then women with 140+ iqs work in male professions or be educated above grade school) only Islamic barbarians do. Smashing images of anything much like Muslims in the name of supressing devil worship... kinda Islamic.

The trade that it wished to suppress was the trade in opium, whiskey, tobacco, and fake Western medicine. All of these were Jewish monopolies just as they are today.

They supressed nearly all trade, none of these trades are jewish monopolies the diamond trade is an example of something that IS a virtual jewish monopoly.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM

Taiping society itself would be a classless society with no distinctions between people; all members of Taiping society were "brothers" and "sisters" with all the attendant duties and obligations traditionally associated with those relationships in Chinese society. Women were the social and economic equal of men; many administrative posts in the new Kingdom were assigned to women

It was communists and it both segregated women AND gave them equal rights... how awful.


His religion would have been a great boon to China, opening it to civilizing influences without the vices that the Jews had brought in. Even though it was a sect of Christianity, over time it would have become more harmonious with the standard Christian sects of the day. And instead of the Chinese culture that was so alien to the West, it would have blended Chinese culture into something that would never have allowed Communism to flourish in the later centuries.

China isn't communist today its more facist. As a reactionary who hates the current rulers of the West I admire China's efficient facist state which achieves consistent economic growth, selects leaders for intellect, and punishes corruption quickly by death. The world didn't need a 2nd Islam... taking root in China of all places.


China is a nutcase state today. It is a society controlled by a subversive gang of ruthless, atheistic Communist dictators who are presently using ruthless, atheistic Capitalist methods for keeping themselves in power -- and all enabled by the Jews to this very day. The Chinese people have been conditioned to be both subserviant slaves and voracious consumers whose overriding goal is to gobble up China and spit out a hollow shell. Because of Communism, there are no real Chinese in Red China today. The real Chinese are found in Taiwan and Malasia.

All that may be true but they are SO much better then our current rulers over here...

There is nothing wrong with Taoism. Except for its taints of ghost worship and sorcery, it has a lot of beautiful and wise teachings. But to be a Taoist is to accept one's disolution into the Void at death. For some people, including many Chinese, such religions as Christianity which offer the immortality of the personal Soul, then Taoism is not enough. They want to enjoy Heaven and not be amalgamated with the five elements.

Taoism doesn't actually say what happens at death at all not in the Tao Te Ching anyway. They could convert to regular christianity not join a would be Muhammad.

[banjo_billy]

One part insane Jeeboo-worship, one part simplistic judeophobia. You see a jew everywhere except where it matters the most - the mirror.

Further proof that deadkike worship is a sign of serious mental deficiency.

You are further proof that people who claim to be white do not live up to their potential. All of your statements are false. Where does that leave you in the playing field of ideas and arguments, when all of your statments are false?

[HNIC]

I don't claim to be 'White'. That's what Americans, who are such a bastardized mongrel people, do. Most of them do not know where they come from; they are a little bit of this, little bit of that. I am Germanic. That is a precise definition. Any snaggle-toothed hillbilly can be 'White', and I have nothing in common with those folks.

If what I said is false, then tell me: are you not a Christstain? Do you not blame the boogeyjew for every conceivable and unconceivable ailment? Do you not ascribe to this people capabilities far beyond that which is reality? I'd be happy to take this little chat to another thread, since it does not belong in here.

[banjo_billy]

He was a charismatic lunatic who amassed an armed following, much like Muhammad.

True it is that Hong Xiuquan was charismatic. In a fevored dream, he had gone to heaven and met with Jesus. And in an inspired preaching career, he amassed a huge following. In reply to official suppression, this following of believers were forced to defend themselves against official oppression. This blossomed into full scale rebellion against the evils of the Ching Dynasty. Hong Xiuquan was of the Hakka Minority but he was supported by the vast numbers of Han Chinese who had been scheming for several centuries to throw off the Ching dictatorship. So, the rebellion spread. But none of this can be equated with the Muslims by any religious similarity. Only by equating it to the general mechanics of faith-based rebellion can you do so.

Radical religious overthrow of the ancient cultural traditions of China based on the laws of a lunatic who ruled by religious proclamation, much like what Islam did in the Middle East..

Actually, what Hong Xiuquan was trying to establish was another Chinese Dynasty with himself as emperor. He didn't start out toward this goal, but that is what he eventually worked toward and, within the perimeter of his own following, achieved. Okay, I understand what your are stating. So, with those general ideas, I guess that you are correct in that respect.


Monastic restrictions were never intended for the ordinary christian, even among the most puritanical christian leaders. Not seeing women at all makes men not quite right in the head and unhappy and prone to homosexuality....

Traditional monastic orders don't have a problem with either celebacy or faggotry. Your ideas in this respect are from a modern layman's view not based on historical or factual experience. The modern problems such as those of the Catholic Church, are strictly modern problems and not indicative of the Traditional Monastic practice or experience.


No civilized society practices strict sexual segregation (I don't think they should vote, and other then women with 140+ iqs work in male professions or be educated above grade school) only Islamic barbarians do. Smashing images of anything much like Muslims in the name of supressing devil worship... kinda Islamic.

Hong Xiuquan, like most Chinese, didn't see anything unusual about hypocrisy. Although he declared celebacy for his followers, he had a wife and several concubines. After all, that's what a Chinese emperor was supposed to do.


They supressed nearly all trade, none of these trades are jewish monopolies the diamond trade is an example of something that IS a virtual jewish monopoly. ....

The opium trade was always a Jewish monopoly. Such trades as silk and tea, were also in Jewish hands.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM

Taiping society itself would be a classless society with no distinctions between people; all members of Taiping society were "brothers" and "sisters" with all the attendant duties and obligations traditionally associated with those relationships in Chinese society. Women were the social and economic equal of men; many administrative posts in the new Kingdom were assigned to women

It was communists and it both segregated women AND gave them equal rights... how awful.

It was not Communist unless you are saying that every Christian community that shares resources are communist, which would be an abuse of the word. Equality of the sexes is a Christian teaching. It was not usually followed in most countries but it was followed by Hong Xiuquan.

China isn't communist today its more facist. As a reactionary who hates the current rulers of the West I admire China's efficient facist state which achieves consistent economic growth, selects leaders for intellect, and punishes corruption quickly by death. The world didn't need a 2nd Islam... taking root in China of all places.

Arguing these ideas is useless unless you understand what Christianity and Islam are, so that you can tell them apart. Whether the Chinese leaders can be classified as one or the other of dictatorial scoundrels, doesn't matter since they are all the same scoundrels.

All that may be true but they are SO much better then our current rulers over here... They are not any better leaders than our own treasonous leaders, except in one thing: they do what's best for China, not what's best for the Jews.

Taoism doesn't actually say what happens at death at all not in the Tao Te Ching anyway. They could convert to regular christianity not join a would be Muhammad.[/quote]

The Tao Te Ching teaches the Way, or the Tao. And every religion today can benefit from that teaching. Lao Tsu's statement that "The Name that can be named, is not the Eternal Name," is a teaching that would solve a lot of fighting among people who kill each other over who knows the name of God or not.

But the Tao Te Ching was followed by a vast library of other Taoist writers. Read Chuan Tsu to get a deeper understanding of Taoism. Then try some qi gong practice to find the qi and the yin and yang of Taoist "science".

All of these are connected to Taoist meditation practices. Chuang Tsu, it was, who wrote of "dreaming that I was a butterfly, and when I awoke, I didn't know if I was a man who dreamed of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming that he was a man."

Taoism is very simple yet very deep in awareness. It is very similar to the Celtic and Druidic knowledge of ancient Europe in its immediate observation of Nature and Reality. The Celts and the Taoists had a lot of similar teachings. The main difference between the two is that the Chinese wrote down their teachings while the Celts and Druids did not. So, the ancient European teachings were pretty much lost.

[Kodos]

Ill just pick snippets here...

Traditional monastic orders don't have a problem with either celebacy or faggotry.

Monasticism wasn't imposed on the whole population and faggotry was always at least officially against the rules.

The opium trade was always a Jewish monopoly

Most of the merchants involved were Scots as Basil has pointed out, im not sure where most of Britain's jews lived but I imagine there were few in Scotland.

All that may be true but they are SO much better then our current rulers over here... They are not any better leaders than our own treasonous leaders, except in one thing: they do what's best for China, not what's best for the Jews.

I don't see any consistent policy with our leaders... destroying America isn't best for the jews since Americans have little hostility towards them.

[banjo_billy]

I don't claim to be 'White'. That's what Americans, who are such a bastardized mongrel people, do. Most of them do not know where they come from; they are a little bit of this, little bit of that. I am Germanic. That is a precise definition. Any snaggle-toothed hillbilly can be 'White', and I have nothing in common with those folks.

I am always glad to help the Volk to a better understanding of our True Power. If you can classify yourself as one of the Volk, then let's discuss these problems more thoroughly.

If what I said is false, then tell me: are you not a Christstain? I don't know what a "Christstain" is. I assume that you are making insulting words that only express your distain for something that you don't otherwise have the words to adequitely discuss. Religion is something too big to be put into a pigeon hole. For example, the Germanic rune knowledge also contains Christian power symbols. So, are you saying that these should be thrown aside simply because a sect that you hate also uses them?

Do you not blame the boogeyjew for every conceivable and unconceivable ailment? Like Hitler taught, Jews are at the bottom of all social ills. So, are you saying that you are Germanic but that you do not agree with Hitler's assessment of the Jews?

Do you not ascribe to this people capabilities far beyond that which is reality? Of course not! The Jews are simple criminals and con artists, that all. Their only powers are the powers of money and lies. That's all that Jews have in reality. And they are experts at using both money and lies to attain their aims.

I'd be happy to take this little chat to another thread, since it does not belong in here.

If you want to start another thread, let's between us decide on a name for the thread, first. That way, we won't be bothered by all of the Phora folks who jump into the fray thinking that the thread is about something odd or other.

What do you think about thread titles such as these?

"Germanic Runes and Christian Crosses, the Secrets of the Druids"

or how about

"Odin's Third Eye"

what about

"Why the Jews hate the Germans"

What ideas do you have about a thread title? You are obviously an intelligent person who thinks that he is right. But I see you as an intelligent person who is very wrong. If you want to fight it out on another thread, that's fine with me.

However: Understand that I won't let you get away with only a bruising, just because you are of the great Germanic People. If you don't agree with me, then I am liable to kick your ass. Sorry, that's just the Irish-Scots-Russian in this snaggle-toothed old hillbilly.

So, let's see what you're made of, Mein Freund. What shall we title our thread?

[banjo_billy]

Ill just pick snippets here... Okay, it looks like this is winding down.

Monasticism wasn't imposed on the whole population and faggotry was always at least officially against the rules. Monasticism was not a part of Hong Xiuquan's agenda since they didn't have time for that because of the war. But following Jesus' teachings and the traditions of the West as best as he understood them, was his goal.

Most of the merchants involved were Scots as Basil has pointed out, im not sure where most of Britain's jews lived but I imagine there were few in Scotland. The Jews have an ancient traditon of blaming scapegoats for their crimes. Whether it is waving a chicken over their heads to absorb their sins, like the modern Jews do, or pointing their lying fingers at whoever they want to cast the blame upon, the Jews are expert criminals who know how to escape from prosecution. I don't know where Basil or you get your information on the Opium Trade, but it has been tainted by the usual Jewish scapegoating. Certainly, there were other people besides Jews selling opium. After all, the Jews would sell opium to whomever they could make a profit from.

But you must understand that the Opium Trade was a Jewish monopoly. The Sassoon family controlled the entire opium crop from the fields in India to the distribution points in Asia. They only hired Jews to run the business. Other Jewish families controlled the opium trade to other parts of the world, such as the Delano family (the future maternal relatives of Franklin Delano Roosevelt) who controlled the opium that they bought wholesale from the Sassoons for distribution to the United States.

The Sassoons, working under British passport through the British East India Company, sold both in wholesale and retail lots. So, if non-Jews wanted to buy wholesale from the Jews, they were happy to make a deal.

I don't see any consistent policy with our leaders... destroying America isn't best for the jews since Americans have little hostility towards them.

You don't see a consistant policy with our treasonous leaders because you still see them as "our" leaders. They are not our leaders because they are actually treasonous arms of a foreign entity. And that foreign entity is the international Jewish bankers and their Jewish relatives. The overwhelming majority of U.S. Congressmen should be hung for treason and grand larceny.

Once you understand this, then you can see a consistent policy, and that policy is consistent treason and destruction of the People and the Country.

Cattle have little hostility toward the cow herders, too. But the job of the cow herders is to get the cattle to the slaughter house. In the same way, the Jews see themselves as the herders of the goyim (non-Jewish animals) who need only to trick and deceive us into walking into their traps. And the Jews work as a conspiring gang to achive this. There are no innocent Jews; they are all guilty of crimes against Humanity and betrayals most black.

Americans do not have hostility toward the Jews because we believe the lies of the Jews. The lying Jews are betraying the country and destroying the People for their own profit. That's all that matters to the Jews, their own profit. But even their own profit is not enough for the greedy, demonic Jews because it is a teaching of Judaism that they must also destroy all non-Jews around them.

So, whether Americans have hostility towards Jews or not, doesn't matter because the Jews definitely have a deep hatred and hostility towards Americans even as they live among us. And why? Because that's the teachings of Judaism, to hate all of Humanity and to especially hate those Gentiles who do them good deeds. The Jews really are a nation of psychopaths born and bred from birth.

[HNIC]

Before I start, may I please beckon you to learn to use the quote function found on any modern day message board already? You've been at this for at least six years, if not longer. 'Tis about time.

Religion is something too big to be put into a pigeon hole.

Quite the opposite, for religion is the tiniest of things, for the smallest of minds.

For example, the Germanic rune knowledge also contains Christian power symbols. So, are you saying that these should be thrown aside simply because a sect that you hate also uses them?

Aside the fallacy that Christstain symbolism could exist before Jeebooism came about - yes, I am saying that this anachronistic paganism should be, could be, must be left behind. It died a natural dead, much as its Semitic replacement is dying today. The more important task for us, is to fill the void left by such lunacies with something preferably logical and more to the point, beneficial to my racial kinsmen. The peasant mind, which always dominates any civilization in pure numbers, must be nourished by a spiritual superstition, for it needs such force-feeding to be able to go about its daily business.

What do you think about thread titles such as these?

"Germanic Runes and Christian Crosses, the Secrets of the Druids"

or how about

"Odin's Third Eye"

what about

"Why the Jews hate the Germans"

I think you probably flared up that old crackpipe again. Or perhaps hit the sauce for good measure.

What ideas do you have about a thread title? You are obviously an intelligent person who thinks that he is right. But I see you as an intelligent person who is very wrong. If you want to fight it out on another thread, that's fine with me.

You can name it what ever you wish. My only concern is that one of the powertripping fools will disturb my freedom of speech in this here thread. And please spare me your puerile disarmament attempts. I neither require praise nor want any.

[banjo_billy]

Before I start, may I please beckon you to learn to use the quote function found on any modern day message board already? You've been at this for at least six years, if not longer. 'Tis about time.

This is use of the quote function. I use it my way and you can use it your way.

Quite the opposite, for religion is the tiniest of things, for the smallest of minds.

Aside the fallacy that Christstain symbolism could exist before Jeebooism came about - yes, I am saying that this anachronistic paganism should be, could be, must be left behind. It died a natural dead, much as its Semitic replacement is dying today. The more important task for us, is to fill the void left by such lunacies with something preferably logical and more to the point, beneficial to my racial kinsmen. The peasant mind, which always dominates any civilization in pure numbers, must be nourished by a spiritual superstition, for it needs such force-feeding to be able to go about its daily business.

I think you probably flared up that old crackpipe again. Or perhaps hit the sauce for good measure.

You can name it what ever you wish. My only concern is that one of the powertripping fools will disturb my freedom of speech in this here thread. And please spare me your puerile disarmament attempts. I neither require praise nor want any.

All of my opponents become disarmed before my relentless application of Truth. So, whether I praise you or curse you, the results are the same -- your surrender.

Then, of course, there are the Jews, Commies and Atheists for whom no amount of Truth will suffice since they are demons intent upon going once again into Hell. Those do not surrender, therefore they are destroyed.

Yes, I can name a new thread but since you are the one who suggested a change in subject, then I will leave the choice up to you. Start a thread under whatever subject or title that you choose, post the title here and I will debate you on that thread.

So, I am giving you "home court advantage". I want to be fair and I don't want you whining about how I took advantage of you by choosing a subject with which I am already familiar. So, you choose. It was your idea (see post #27), so take it to the next level.

You see, I am not being kind or cruel. I am not trying to disarm you or praise you at all. I am merely giving you as much rope as you want. Choose a title for the thread that you want to start and let's see what you are made of -- if you have the intellectual courage.

On the Phora, bluster is not enough; you must also be able to defend your position. This is why the Phora-Folks gave you so many red marks -- for stupid rants instead of intelligent debates. There are some genuine intellects who congregate on the Phora and some genuine White Nationalists and patriots from the USA, Europe, Ukraine, Russia, South Africa and Australia. Many are already on your side because they are also anti-religious fools. So, you won't be alone. You will have helpers trying to prove the points you make, not that it will do you any good against the God-conscious ones in this congregation. But no one is going to gang up on you except me and the others who know what real religion is about. Almost everyone here is the real deal. But what are you? Bluster and ignorance or genuine gold?

So, go ahead. Name a thread for the subject you want to debate, and let's see what you can do. The subject of the thread will be yours. You can have the home court advantage and the full attention of the thread participants. I want to be fair and I don't want you doing any whining when its all over. Hopefully, you will see the Light. So, choose. What is it you want to say? Declare? Argue? Debate? What? You name it.

[HNIC]

I'm not quite sure of the name, nor the location. How about "Christ-insanity: the ultimate peasant fallacy?" ?

[banjo_billy]

I'm not quite sure of the name, nor the location. How about "Christ-insanity: the ultimate peasant fallacy?" ?

It sounds like an interesting title. Why not PM one of the Moderators and ask which sub-forum such a thread should be placed? They will be glad to help you.

[Kodos]

Americans do not have hostility toward the Jews because we believe the lies of the Jews. The lying Jews are betraying the country and destroying the People for their own profit. That's all that matters to the Jews, their own profit. But even their own profit is not enough for the greedy, demonic Jews because it is a teaching of Judaism that they must also destroy all non-Jews around them.

So, whether Americans have hostility towards Jews or not, doesn't matter because the Jews definitely have a deep hatred and hostility towards Americans even as they live among us. And why? Because that's the teachings of Judaism, to hate all of Humanity and to especially hate those Gentiles who do them good deeds. The Jews really are a nation of psychopaths born and bred from birth.

I guess it comed down to a question of faith, I don't have the faith in this./..

[von Sternberg]

"Observe the bacchanalia of blood by Chang Hsien-chung when, near the end of the Ming Dynasty in 1644, he conquered Szechwan province and in Chengtu declared himself emperor of the Great Western Kingdom. The Chinese chronicles say that when the scholars rejected his imperial claim he immediately had them all massacred. Then he set about destroying all the merchants, then all the women and all the officials. Finally he ordered his own soldiers to kill each other. He ordered the feet of the officers' wives to be cut off and made a mound of-them, and at the top of the mound he placed the feet of his favorite concubines. For some reason he was obsessed with ears and feet, and since it was too much trouble to bring the bodies of the villagers who lived in remote outlying districts to Chengtu, he ordered his private guards to bring him their ears and feet, and he carefully counted them. When the massacre was over, he ordered that there should be placed in a prominent position in Chengtu an inscription carved in stone, reading:

Heaven brings forth innumerable things to help man.
Man has nothing with which to recompense Heaven.
Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill. Kill.31

No small chimping, this.

[Jake Featherston]

I'm not quite sure of the name, nor the location. How about "Christ-insanity: the ultimate peasant fallacy?" ?

Please feel more than free to open up such a thread in the Religion & Mythology sub-forum. Unless you can't refrain from employing the term "Jeeboism," in which case you should open said thread in the Lounge.

[Monty]

I'm not quite sure of the name, nor the location. How about "Christ-insanity: the ultimate peasant fallacy?" ?

This must be the lamest trolling I've seen in some time. Just pathetic.

[banjo_billy]

This must be the lamest trolling I've seen in some time. Just pathetic.

Is he a man or is he a troll?
If he keeps his word, then we'll know.

[Universe-Hun]

This must be the lamest trolling I've seen in some time. Just pathetic.
He is no troll.

There are alot of Christians on the forum, which is fine (whatever floats your boat, in the end). With that said, the problem is, many of the Christians seem to forget, or simply do not know, that there are groups of people that feel Christianity is not only a foreign Semitic religion, but preaches suicidal doctrine and is hand in hand with the destruction of Europe. Let us not forget how Christianity was introduced to Europe (through the sword). let us not forget who are the main (next to jews and libs) preachers of cultural Marxism...Christians... And some can even say that Christianity itself, is a Cultural Marxist religion. HNIC said he is Germanic, so I do not blame him for his contempt of Christianity, because some of the best of his blood fell at the hands of Christians. His concerns and even anger is valid, and should not be written off as "trolling" simply because he uses derogatory terms to describe a religious mentality.

[OVERWATCH]

He is no troll.

There are alot of Christians on the forum, which is fine (whatever floats your boat, in the end). With that said, the problem is, many of the Christians seem to forget, or simply do not know, that there are groups of people that feel Christianity is not only a foreign Semitic religion, but preaches suicidal doctrine and is hand in hand with the destruction of Europe. Let us not forget how Christianity was introduced to Europe (through the sword). let us not forget who are the main (next to jews and libs) preachers of cultural Marxism...Christians... And some can even say that Christianity itself, is a Cultural Marxist religion. HNIC said he is Germanic, so I do not blame him for his contempt of Christianity, because some of the best of his blood fell at the hands of Christians. His concerns and even anger is valid, and should not be written off as "trolling" simply because he uses derogatory terms to describe a religious mentality.

Religion and spirituality as a rule transcends the territorial pissings of men, that's true not just of Christianity but any other religion. Creatards & the creatard-inspired like HNIC who get their panties in an antichristian twist are simply angry atheists full of piss & vinegar. Been there & done that, the Rx is to age beyond their third decade and lose some of that wetness behind their ears.

[banjo_billy]

He is no troll.

And presto-changeo. Two days later, he must still be cogitating a reply under a bridge somewhere.

[Crowley]

My Christian interpretation: this poem reflects the desperation of human race as it realizes its infinite distance from the divine world, and yet feels that it is there, but unreachable. The only way out for a fallen man is to indulge in furious, demonic destruction and ultimately self-destruction.

Only Jesus Christ can serve as a bridge between this world and divine world, between God and man. He is the way, truth and life.

Without Him we are all basically on the same level and in the same position as Chang Hsien-chung was .


Petr

He was just insane Petr while holding high position in a rigid social system lacking an ejector seat.

[HNIC]

And presto-changeo. Two days later, he must still be cogitating a reply under a bridge somewhere.

Oh, do suck on your thumb billy - or get a pacifier. I'z been busy 'n sheeit.

[Universe-Hun]

Religion and spirituality as a rule transcends the territorial pissings of men, that's true not just of Christianity but any other religion. Creatards & the creatard-inspired like HNIC who get their panties in an antichristian twist are simply angry atheists full of piss & vinegar. Been there & done that, the Rx is to age beyond their third decade and lose some of that wetness behind their ears.

On face value I would have to agree with you. BUT, the 3 major monotheistic religions have large real-world effects on people, you almost have to expect the "piss & vinegar" backlashes. The topic of judao-chiz-lam(meta-physical) transcends spirituality and enters into Governmental and societal arenas(physical). Thus we see the venom of both the non-believers(atheists) and the people who typically would not get passionate over religious matters (agnostic) but rather, dislike the social trends pushed by said monotheistic religions.

[banjo_billy]

Oh, do suck on your thumb billy - or get a pacifier. I'z been busy 'n sheeit.

And your thread is to be announced when, O mighty Troll.

[HNIC]

And your thread is to be announced when, O mighty Troll.

Well, you've had... how many days is it? Don't see anything yet.

[Kodos]

bserve the bacchanalia of blood by Chang Hsien-chung when, near the end of the Ming Dynasty in 1644, he conquered Szechwan province and in Chengtu declared himself emperor of the Great Western Kingdom. The Chinese chronicles say that when the scholars rejected his imperial claim he immediately had them all massacred. Then he set about destroying all the merchants, then all the women and all the officials. Finally he ordered his own soldiers to kill each other

I find this hard to believe... surely they'd mutiny and kill him for that...

[banjo_billy]

Well, you've had... how many days is it? Don't see anything yet.

In other words, you're chickening out and admitting that you are nothing but a troll, full of piss and vinegar and fake bluster not intelligent enough to defend your own statements. Perhaps the moderators will begin to consider banning you when you hijack and disrupt threads with your aggressive and completely useless blather.

[banjo_billy]

I find this hard to believe... surely they'd mutiny and kill him for that...

Like the Japanese, the Chinese have been subjected to a couple thousand years of genetic pruning. Those who were rebellious, were killed along with their entire families. Those who did what they were told and obeyed the ruling elite, were allowed to live. In this case, these foolish soldiers were genetically and culturally conditioned into suicide. The Japanese samauri were little different in this case.

[Kodos]

Like the Japanese, the Chinese have been subjected to a couple thousand years of genetic pruning. Those who were rebellious, were killed along with their entire families. Those who did what they were told and obeyed the ruling elite, were allowed to live.

Apparently not in this case... China's never been as quite into a slavish obedience ethic as Japan its a bigger more heterogeneous societies and has more of a tradition of popular rebellions I think if he gave this order his troops would have mutinied and killed him... thus I think this story is exaggerated. The histories were probably written by his political opponents.

In this case, these foolish soldiers were genetically and culturally conditioned into suicide. The Japanese samauri were little different in this case.

He was a rebel/bandit leader, these weren't the Japanese Empire's Bushido fanatics I think they would have killed him had he given such an order...

In fact the Chinese have a saying I think the Japanese would find near blasphemous, "The hills are high and the Emperor is far away".

[banjo_billy]

In other words, you've yet to manage to make the thread in 4+ days. A useless whining Christstain, as always.

What an ass. It was your idea and now you don't have the balls or the brains to follow through. You're a troll.

:jew:

[Petr]

Apparently not in this case... China's never been as quite into a slavish obedience ethic as Japan its a bigger more heterogeneous societies and has more of a tradition of popular rebellions I think if he gave this order his troops would have mutinied and killed him...
Indeed, I listed some major Chinese popular uprisings here:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=904121&postcount=9


Orientals have apparently even made computer-games about these things, like the "Yellow Turban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Turban_Rebellion)" Taoist rebellion:


ZPc-q44w_Fk

S7wSkr2UYYs k6YPNKdPnV0

[Petr]

In fact the Chinese have a saying I think the Japanese would find near blasphemous, "The hills are high and the Emperor is far away".
Moreover, a very notable difference: while ruling Chinese dynasties have changed many, many times, the Japanese imperial line has never been interrupted or overthrown. Competing Japanese feudal dynasties fought over who would get to use the emperors as their puppets, not over becoming emperors themselves.

That's why emperor Hirohito could pretend direct descent from the founding deities of Japan. The imperial person has never been quite so sacred and venerable in China as in Japan. Nor did the Chinese maintain such rigid military caste as the Japanese Samurai class.


Petr

[Kodos]

Moreover, a very notable difference: while ruling Chinese dynasties have changed many, many times, the Japanese imperial line has never been interrupted or overthrown. Competing Japanese feudal dynasties fought over who would get to use the emperors as their puppets, not over becoming emperors themselves.

That's why emperor Hirohito could pretend direct descent from the founding deities of Japan. The imperial person has never been quite so sacred and venerable in China as in Japan. Nor did the Chinese maintain such rigid military caste as the Japanese Samurai class.


Petr

I think the big difference is in Japan the Emperor rules as a god himself (yes they renounced this but I understand that was more for foreign consumption and the Japanese never took it seriously) whos descended from the gods it was an extreme version of the "Divine Right of Kings", in China the emperor merely ruled with "The Mandate of Heaven" (a somewhat lesser version of the Divine Right of Kings) they could theoretically lose their mandate for misgovernment justifying a replacement of the emperor or the dynasty.

[Petr]

I think the big difference is in Japan the Emperor rules as a god himself (yes they renounced this but I understand that was more for foreign consumption and the Japanese never took it seriously) whos descended from the gods it was an extreme version of the "Divine Right of Kings", in China the emperor merely ruled with "The Mandate of Heaven" (a somewhat lesser version of the Divine Right of Kings) they could theoretically lose their mandate for misgovernment justifying a replacement of the emperor or the dynasty.
True, the Chinese model is clearly more "constitutional" - dare I say more civilized - than the Japanese system. Sometimes Chinese rulers themselves could have doubts whether the mandate of heaven was still with them. In fatalistic resignation they could think that rebels were inevitably bound to succeed because "the mandate" had now transferred itself upon them (like some mystical force). Sort of like Western pagans might think, "the fickle goddess of Fortune has changed sides and now wishes for our defeat."


Let us not forget that the Japanese were pretty much mere savages until they in the Early Middle Ages copied the advanced Chinese culture (in the same quick way they copied the Western culture in the 19th century), like German peoples were before their contact with Greco-Roman culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofun_period#Introduction_of_material_culture_to_Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taika_Reform

Moreover, the Chinese have generally been more open to Christianity than the Japanese. This also proves their superior mentality.


http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/dspolitic/pm/1942/21118cs.jpg

[Kodos]

Moreover, the Chinese have generally been more open to Christianity than the Japanese.

I think it would take a radical Taiping (and to me the Taipings were a horrifying Islamicized version of christianity) like change to establish christianity in China, traditional Chinese don't want to give up veneration of their ancestors, beliefs in lucky spirits, taoism (a "religion" I find much to agree with in personally) etc. I don't think the Chinese government likes organized groups with strong religious sentiments either and thus will probably crackdown very hard if it percieves it as spreading widely.

It would not be a conservative cultural force in China and as such it would have a better chance of taking root in the poor and dispirited China that existed before Deng Xiaoping then China now.

Im not deliberately trying to antagonize you Petr I greatly respect you as a poster but thats my opinion on Christianity in China.

But its still more likely to spread there then in Japan, Japan had a small group of Christians around Nagasaki who survived the years under the Shogunate...

[Hartmann von Aue]

You could never make Madame Butterfly about a Chinese woman.

[banjo_billy]

You could never make Madame Butterfly about a Chinese woman.

Which is why Chinese men who know the difference admire Japanese women:

Poems for Yukiko of Tamba


Last year, with jade hands you offered cups of tea
boiled with snow brushed from the petals of plum blossoms!
"I'll recite fine poems for you, and serve you fine tea:
you'll remember forever the fifth house on West Bank!"


"Next year you must come again
and taste our tea once more
when the whole mountain is covered, front and back,
with blossoming cherry trees.
Please write a letter and let me know
when you'll be getting here --
I'll take you myself to pay a visit
to Miss Imamura, the geisha of them all!"


-- Liu E, 1857-1909, Ching Dynasty

[banjo_billy]

That is not to say, with melancholy pathos, that they ignored the rosy-cheeked Chinese girls:


Written on a Farmhouse Wall
by Ts'ui Hu (T'ang Dynasty)

A year ago today,
Inside this door,
Her pretty face.
The peach flowers,
Each to each,
Reflected pink.

Pretty face!
Where is she now?

Still the peach flowers,
Crinkling in spring wind.

[Petr]

I think it would take a radical Taiping (and to me the Taipings were a horrifying Islamicized version of christianity) like change to establish christianity in China, traditional Chinese don't want to give up veneration of their ancestors, beliefs in lucky spirits, taoism (a "religion" I find much to agree with in personally) etc. I don't think the Chinese government likes organized groups with strong religious sentiments either and thus will probably crackdown very hard if it percieves it as spreading widely.
The number of Christians in China may be already higher than the whole population of Japan:

Scholars have debated for decades about the number of Christians in China. But the new estimates both come from government sources. The higher number of 130 million reportedly comes from Ye Xiaowen, the head of China's State Administration of Religious Affairs. According to reliable reports, he used the 130 million head count at two government briefings in 2006. Bob Fu of China Aid Association has cited 130 million as a credible estimate. Other experts believe any statistic reporting over 100 million Christians is not credible.
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38227&highlight=china


Petr

[Petr]

ZPc-q44w_Fk
More interesting details about the "Yellow Turban" movement:

http://www.marxmail.org/archives/July99/falun_gong_in_historical_context.htm

The historical justification for this censorious view of Daoism as religion gone awry comes from Daoist movements such as Yellow Turbans Disturbance (Huangjin Huo). It is so labelled by the contemptuous Confucian establishment. Eighteen centuries ago, beginning around the year 170, shortly before the final collapse of the Han dynasty (B.C. 206-220 A.D.), roaming bands of disaffected peasants mounted a decade-long disruption of the peace in the provinces. Eventually, in 184, exploiting aggravating dislocations caused by floods along lower Yellow River (Huanghe), a messianic mass movement of social revolution developed in areas between modern-day Shandong and Henan provinces.

Historians call the movement Yellow Turbans Peasant Rebellion (Huangjing Minbian) because its peasant members identified themselves by wearing yellow turbans around their heads. It was the first major peasant revolt in Chinese history.

The leader of Yellow Turbans Peasant Rebellion (Huangjin Minbian) was Zhang Jiao, chief patriarch of the Daoist sect of the Way of Celestial Peace (Taiping Dao).

Zhang Jiao had been an unsuccessful candidate in keju (public examinations) for officialdom. While gathering herbal medicine in the mountainous wilderness, he allegedly met an old sage named South China Ancient Sage (Nanhua Laoxian) from whom he received the 3-volume Celestial Peace Methods (Taiping Yaoshe). A talented propagandist and messianic faith-healer, Zhang Jiao proclaimed himself pope of a new religion based on a synthesis of Huangdi (Yellow Emperor), primeval mythical sovereign, and a deified Laozi.

Huangdi is the ritual appellation adopted by the first monarch in Chinese history, a man named Gongsun, allegedly born on the celestial star Xuanyuan. Legend has it that Huangdi established the first kingdom in history at Youxiong, around Zhengzhou, modern-day Henan province. During his reign, language, costume, architecture, money, measure, medicine and music were professedly invented.

All Chinese consider themselves descendants of Huangdi. Huang (yellow) is the color of ripe wheat. The concept of yellow commands a mythical meaning in Chinese culture, signifying regality, prosperity and civilization, all symbolized by the color of golden harvest.

The Yellow Turbans, with a theocratic organization of over 500,000 zealous cadres leading an army of 360,000 at the height of its influence in the year 184, were ruled with supreme power by Zhang Jiao and his two brothers. The three brothers, as the Trinity of Lords of Heaven, Earth and Men respectively, were supported by a hierarchy of militarized clergy. Communal living was practised with regular public confessions, mass participation in spiritual trances and orgiastic ceremonies in which men and women engaged in prolonged kisses to "balance their vital vapor (luoqi)". Diseases were considered consequences of sin and were believed to be curable by healing amulets applied to affected parts of the body and therapeutic charms worn around the neck or waist. The Yellow Turbans Rebellion was finally suppressed by renegade army commanders of the falling Han dynasty who became independent warlords that kept China fragmented for three more centuries, since 220, before Yang Jian reunited the country by founding the Sui dynasty in 581.