Why European women are turning to Islam

[Felix the Cat]

Why European women are turning to Islam (http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2005/1227/p01s04-woeu.html)

PARIS – Mary Fallot looks as unlike a terrorist suspect as one could possibly imagine: a petite and demure white Frenchwoman chatting with friends on a cell-phone, indistinguishable from any other young woman in the café where she sits sipping coffee.

And that is exactly why European antiterrorist authorities have their eyes on thousands like her across the continent.

Ms. Fallot is a recent convert to Islam. In the eyes of the police, that makes her potentially dangerous.

The death of Muriel Degauque, a Belgian convert who blew herself up in a suicide attack on US troops in Iraq last month, has drawn fresh attention to the rising number of Islamic converts in Europe, most of them women.

"The phenomenon is booming, and it worries us," the head of the French domestic intelligence agency, Pascal Mailhos, told the Paris-based newspaper Le Monde in a recent interview. "But we must absolutely avoid lumping everyone together."

The difficulty, security experts explain, is that while the police may be alert to possible threats from young men of Middle Eastern origin, they are more relaxed about white European women. Terrorists can use converts who "have added operational benefits in very tight security situations" where they might not attract attention, says Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at the Swedish National Defense College in Stockholm.

Ms. Fallot, who converted to Islam three years ago after asking herself spiritual questions to which she found no answers in her childhood Catholicism, says she finds the suspicion her new religion attracts "wounding." "For me," she adds, "Islam is a message of love, of tolerance and peace."

It is a message that appeals to more and more Europeans as curiosity about Islam has grown since 9/11, say both Muslim and non-Muslim researchers. Although there are no precise figures, observers who monitor Europe's Muslim population estimate that several thousand men and women convert each year.

Only a fraction of converts are attracted to radical strands of Islam, they point out, and even fewer are drawn into violence. A handful have been convicted of terrorist offenses, such as Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber" and American John Walker Lindh, who was captured in Afghanistan.

Admittedly patchy research suggests that more women than men convert, experts say, but that - contrary to popular perception - only a minority do so in order to marry Muslim men.

"That used to be the most common way, but recently more [women] are coming out of conviction," says Haifa Jawad, who teaches at Birmingham University in Britain. Though non-Muslim men must convert in order to marry a Muslim woman, she points out, the opposite is not true.

Fallot laughs when she is asked whether her love life had anything to do with her decision. "When I told my colleagues at work that I had converted, their first reaction was to ask whether I had a Muslim boyfriend," she recalls. "They couldn't believe I had done it of my own free will."

In fact, she explains, she liked the way "Islam demands a closeness to God. Islam is simpler, more rigorous, and it's easier because it is explicit. I was looking for a framework; man needs rules and behavior to follow. Christianity did not give me the same reference points."

Those reasons reflect many female converts' thinking, say experts who have studied the phenomenon. "A lot of women are reacting to the moral uncertainties of Western society," says Dr. Jawad. "They like the sense of belonging and caring and sharing that Islam offers."

Others are attracted by "a certain idea of womanhood and manhood that Islam offers," suggests Karin van Nieuwkerk, who has studied Dutch women converts. "There is more space for family and motherhood in Islam, and women are not sex objects."

At the same time, argues Sarah Joseph, an English convert who founded "Emel," a Muslim lifestyle magazine, "the idea that all women converts are looking for a nice cocooned lifestyle away from the excesses of Western feminism is not exactly accurate."

Some converts give their decision a political meaning, says Stefano Allievi, a professor at Padua University in Italy. "Islam offers a spiritualization of politics, the idea of a sacred order," he says. "But that is a very masculine way to understand the world" and rarely appeals to women, he adds.

After making their decision, some converts take things slowly, adopting Muslim customs bit by bit: Fallot, for example, does not yet feel ready to wear a head scarf, though she is wearing longer and looser clothes than she used to.

Others jump right in, eager for the exoticism of a new religion, and become much more pious than fellow mosque-goers who were born into Islam. Such converts, taking an absolutist approach, appear to be the ones most easily led into extremism.

The early stages of a convert's discovery of Islam "can be quite a sensitive time," says Batool al-Toma, who runs the "New Muslims" program at the Islamic Foundation in Leicester, England.

"You are not confident of your knowledge, you are a newcomer, and you could be prey to a lot of different people either acting individually or as members of an organization," Ms. Al-Toma explains. A few converts feel "such a huge desire to fit in and be accepted that they are ready to do just about anything," she says.

"New converts feel they have to prove themselves," adds Dr. Ranstorp. "Those who seek more extreme ways of proving themselves can become extraordinarily easy prey to manipulation."

At the same time, says al-Toma, converts seeking respite in Islam from a troubled past - such as Degauque, who had reportedly drifted in and out of drugs and jobs before converting to Islam - might be persuaded that such an "ultimate action" as a suicide bomb attack offered an opportunity for salvation and forgiveness.

"The saddest conclusion" al-Toma draws from Degauque's death in Iraq is that "a woman who set out on the road to inner peace became a victim of people who set out to use and abuse her."

[Felix the Cat]

US Latinas seek answers in Islam (http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2004/1227/p11s02-ussc.html?s=widep)

UNION CITY, N.J. – Jasmine Pinet sits on the steps outside a mosque here, tucking in strands of her burgundy hair beneath a white head scarf, and explaining why she, a young Latina, feels that she has found greater respect as a woman by converting to Islam.

"They're not gonna say, 'Hey mami, how are you?' " Ms. Pinet says of Muslim men. "Usually they say, 'Hello, sister.' And they don't look at you like a sex object."

While some Latinas her age try to emulate the tight clothes and wiggling hips of stars like Jennifer Lopez and Christina Aguilera, Ms. Pinet and others are adopting a more conservative lifestyle and converting to Islam. At this Union City, N.J., mosque, women account for more than half of the Latino Muslims who attend services here. Nationwide, there are about 40,000 Latino Muslims in the United States, according to the Islamic Society of North America.

Many of the Latina converts say that their belief that women are treated better in Islam was a significant factor in converting. Critics may protest that wearing the veil marks a woman as property, but some Latina converts say they welcome the fact that they are no longer whistled at walking down a street. "People have an innate response that I'm a religious person, and they give [me] more respect," says Jenny Yanez, another Latina Muslim. "You're not judged if you're in fashion or out of fashion."

Other Latina Muslims say they also like the religion's emphasis on fidelity to one's spouse and family.

But for many family members and friends, these conversions come as a surprise - often an unwelcome one. They may know little of Islam other than what they have heard of the Taliban and other extremist groups.

That creates an inaccurate image, insists Leila Ahmed, a professor of women's studies and religion at Harvard University. "It astounds me, the extent to which people think Afghanistan and the Taliban represent women and Islam." What's really going on, she says, is a reshaping of the relationship between women and Islam. "We're in the early stages of a major rethinking of Islam that will open Islam for women. [Muslim scholars] are rereading the core texts of Islam - from the Koran to legal texts - in every possible way."

New views of women and Islam may be more prevalent in countries like the US, where women read the Koran themselves and rely less on patriarchal interpretations.

"I think the women here are asserting more their rights and their privileges," says Zahid Bukhari, director of the American-Muslim Studies Program at George- town University. "

Some Latina Muslims say they harbored stereotypes about Muslim women before deciding to convert, but changed their minds once becoming close friends with a Muslim.

"I always thought, geez, I feel sorry for women who have to wear those veils," says Pinet. Then she met her Muslim boyfriend and began studying the Koran with a group of Muslim women. She says she was impressed with the respect they received.

"A women is respected because she is the mother, she takes care of the children, and she's the one that enforces the rules," Pinet says. "They're the ones who are sacred."

Critics of the decisions of Latinas to convert to Islam say they are adopting a religion just as patriarchical as the Roman Catholic faith that many are leaving behind.

"While it's true the Latino culture tends to be more male-dominated, and there's a tendency toward more machismo, I would venture to say it exists [in Islam] as well," says Edwin Hernandez, director of the Center for the Study of Latino Religion at the University of Notre Dame.

Latinos account for six percent of the 20,000 Muslim conversions in the United States each year, according to a report published by the Council on American-Islamic Relations. Anecdotal evidence suggests this number may be rising. But that doesn't mean it's getting any easier for the women who make this choice.

"At first it was anger and then more like sadness," Nylka Vargas says of her parents' reaction when she told them she was converting to Islam and began dressing more conservatively. "They would sometimes feel strange being around me."

Pinet's family has been more accepting, but she too has encountered some resistance in her community. It's as if you've betrayed your own kind," she says.

For some, the cultural differences are the most trying.

"I can't eat pork, I can't wear [form- fitting] clothing, I can't dance in the clubs, I'm not gonna attend church," says Ms. Yanez, who is of Cuban and Spanish descent. "But I keep my language, and there's still things that we do as Latinos that they don't have to change."

Within the Islamic community, Latina Muslims report being warmly received, although language barriers sometimes exist for Latinas who only speak Spanish. There are few Spanish services at mosques and a limited number of Islamic texts in Spanish.

Grassroots organizations specifically for Latino Muslims have been created in recent years. They function in part as an informational resource for new converts and but also as a support group for those who encounter difficulties at home.

Ultimately, Latina Muslims say that time heals the divisions and angst their conversion sometimes causes among friends and family.

"What I had to learn was patience," says Vargas, whose family came to accept her religious beliefs after several years. "Sometimes things are not as we want them."

[Zrinski]

I don't understand why would someone needs to convert to Islam or any other religion to find inner peace and their spirtuality....

[Ace Rimmer]

I have Slovenian female friend ( :D )
who converted to Islam recently.

[Ixtab]

Christianity is just as much a semitic cult as Islam, the widespreadedness of conversions from Christianity to Islam is therefore a non-issue from the perspective of a European patriot. It is only an issue to adherents of either of those Semitic cults.

[Ace Rimmer]

Islam is just as foreign as Christianity, the widespreadedness of conversions from Christianity to Islam is a non-issue from the perspective of a European patriot.

Says Canadian.

[Ixtab]

Says Canadian.What does my being Canadian have to do with anything I said?

[Ace Rimmer]

What does my being Canadian have to do with anything I said?

Canadians are foreign to Europe, not Christianity, and thus their word
on the subject has the same value as word of someone from Congo.

[daisy]

What does my being Canadian have to do with anything I said?
canada is part of the anglosphere which has to do with everything.
i should have seen this coming. eventually they are going to encourage conversion of our grandchildren to islam to infiltrate the muslims.

[Felix the Cat]

Canadians are foreign to Europe, not Christianity, and thus their word
on the subject has the same value as word of someone from Congo.
Why should people lose interest in the affairs of their homelands just because they no longer happen to live there?

[Ixtab]

Canadians are foreign to Europe, not Christianity, and thus their word
on the subject has the same value as word of someone from Congo.-Ad hominem. The truth-value of a statement is not affected by the place of origin of the person making the statement.
-And surely an indinenous Congolese is far less 'Euroepan' than a Canadian of European ancestry.

[Ace Rimmer]

Why should people lose interest in the affairs of their homelands just because they no longer happen to live there?

I said nothing about losing interests or some sort of jurisdiction he should have on the matter.
I spoke about how I personally value and see foreign comments on Europe and her internal matters.
And no, I don't share your opinion about Europe being his homeland.

[Ixtab]

I spoke about how I personally value and see foreign comments on Europe and her internal matters.I demand irrefutable proof that the truth-value of a statement can be determined by specifying the birth-location of the man making the statement.

[Atlas]

The problem is not islam, but if the converted girl decide to marry a non-white muslim. Race above religion.

[Hakluyt]

Canadians are foreign to Europe, not Christianity, and thus their word
on the subject has the same value as word of someone from Congo.

Canada, Croatia
North America, The Balkans
hmm...

[Ace Rimmer]

-Ad hominem. The truth-value of a statement is not affected by the place of origin of the person making the statement.

1.Your "truth" is questionable and in my opinion untrue.
2.It is affected by location since your foot is not where your mouth is,
your reasoning on "European Patriotism", Christianity and irrelevance of conversions to Islam of Europeans
will not affect your country and your personal life but the lives of Europeans.

It reminds me on the sort that wishes death to USA soldiers in Iraq
over the internet in comfort of their home.

-And surely an indinenous Congolese is far less 'Euroepan' than a Canadian of European ancestry.

They still both are not European.

[Ace Rimmer]

Canada, Croatia
North America, The Balkans
hmm...

No need for this petty attempts to provoke me.
If you think that Canada is in Europe we simply don't agree.

[Starr]

The problem is not islam, but if the converted girl decide to marry a non-white muslim. Race above religion.

Correct. This article makes it sound as if white women are, by themselves, "finding" Islam. I think that is bull. They are becoming Muslims when they marry Muslim men. Thus the problem is once again mud immigration, not Islam.

[Ace Rimmer]

Correct. This article makes it sound as if white women are, by themselves, "finding" Islam. I think that is bull. They are becoming Muslims when they marry Muslim men. Thus the problem is once again mud immigration, not Islam.

The case I am familiar with (see my earlier post) has no Muslim men involved.

[Ixtab]

1.Your "truth" is questionable and in my opinion untrue.Then disprove it.

2.It is affected by location since your foot is not where your mouth is, ...]That doesn't mean the statement, itself, is false. It can be incidentally or accidentally true, it can be backed up by research.

... your reasoning on "European Patriotism", Christianity and irrelevance of conversions to Islam of Europeans
will not affect your country and your personal life but the lives of Europeans.I did not intend the statement to have an effect on anything outside of the present discussion.

It reminds me on the sort that wishes death to USA soldiers in Iraq over the internet in comfort of their home.Again, the truth of a belief is not determined by the physical location of the holder of that belief. Its truth resides in its correspondence with reality; it that correspondence is absent, it is a false belief, and you can establish its falseness by appealing to European realities, not by appealing to my physical location.

They still both are not European.In other words, you prioritise geography (dead matter) over ancestry and culture.

[raven]

Correct. This article makes it sound as if white women are, by themselves, "finding" Islam. I think that is bull. They are becoming Muslims when they marry Muslim men. Thus the problem is once again mud immigration, not Islam.
Why are these women marrying muslim men anyway? The media brainwashes white women into idolizing negroes but it's not like some Muhammad Hassan is being marketed as some sort of stud in the media or anything. What is up with white girls these days (with the exception of women like you of course :D)?

[Ace Rimmer]

Then disprove it.

No, you haven't proved anything and you are shifting the burden of proof,
it is you who made initial assertion and it is on you to prove it.


That doesn't mean the statement, itself, is false. It can be incidentally or accidentally true, it can be backed up by research.

I agree, but your statement is affected with no fear of consequences
and you will be untouched by it, unlike me and Europeans who are living here,
that's what I meant in the first place and drew parallel with Iraq and USA soldiers.

I did not intend the statement to have an effect on anything outside of the present discussion.

The idea it self is very dangerous and should be cut at the very root of it.

Again, the truth of a belief is not determined by the physical location of the holder of that belief. Its truth resides in its correspondence with reality; it that correspondence is absent, it is a false belief, and you can establish its falseness by appealing to European realities, not by appealing to my physical location.

Agreed.

In other words, you prioritise geography (dead matter) over ancestry and culture.

I do, since if something affects Europe, Canada will remain untouched from it,
or vice versa.

[Starr]

The case I am familiar with (see my earlier post) has no Muslim men involved.

The problem is that there are too many Muslims and thus Muslim influences and combine that with the fact that so many people today are spiritually dead or very close to it for the most part.

but I do also think(I don't know for certain obviously) that this article is greatly hyped for fear of terrorism reasons.

[daisy]

you will be untouched by it, unlike me and Europeans who are living here falseu.s. in the anglosphere are never untouched by what europe or u.k does. america and the rest of the anglosphere always follows their lead like monkey see monkey do.

[Ixtab]

No, you haven't proved anything and you are shifting the burden of proof,What do you want me to prove? That Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism?

I agree, but your statement is affected with no fear of consequencesSuch as?

I do, since if something affects Europe, Canada will remain untouched from it,
or vice versa.But that still would have nothing to do with whether I'm right or wrong about the origins of Christianity.

[Felix the Cat]

Ix, If not Christianity or Islam, what religion do you think would be appropriate for Europeans?

[Geist]

He is a Marxist, the answer is no religion (bar the Marxist one...)

[brigadier Biggles]

I don't understand why would someone needs to convert to Islam or any other religion to find inner peace and their spirtuality....

"If you ever find happiness by hunting for it,
you will find it,
as the old woman did her lost spectacles,
safe on her own nose all the time.”
Josh Billings

lol what a great quote.

[Banat]

Christianity is just as much a semitic cult as Islam, the widespreadedness of conversions from Christianity to Islam is therefore a non-issue from the perspective of a European patriot. It is only an issue to adherents of either of those Semitic cults.

I wonder if this necessarily puts Christianity in a bad connotation? To be frank, and more universal, I think that Christianity isn't compatible with human nature in general, not only some "European way", if something like that was imposed in the first place.

Second, can we even speak about European patriots, or about Europe as an idea, if we disregard that "Semitic cult" and the influence it has made on European peoples?

And what is most important, why "Semitic"? Aren't Semitic religions those ones who find Christianity most offensive? IMO, of all religions, Christianity, as it is practised today in my homeland, is a continuation of the religion of our ancestors, and closer to it than neo-pagan cults.

I don't understand why would someone needs to convert to Islam or any other religion to find inner peace and their spirtuality....

Considering Islam, Europe, today: spiritual insecurity, followed with disappointment in Christianity (often caused by a disturbing lack of understanding) and influence of a strong and friendly individual of Moslem faith. I see no other reasons.

[Zrinski]

I am disappointed in Crhistianity as well and I have absolutly no desire to convert to Islam...it's even worse than Christianity...

[Ixtab]

Ix, If not Christianity or Islam, what religion do you think would be appropriate for Europeans?A distillation or generalisation of all Indo-European religions, resting on either a monotheistic or pantheistic foundation, and incorporating certain ideas that can be derived from primordial Christianity--for instance, the quasi-socialism that always arises whenever you try to get back to the original teachings and sayings of Jesus. Something along these lines, at least, would be my own "ideal" religion. It might be objected that the Indo-European religions are largely polytheistic or animistic, as if this somehow discredits them. In fact, the worship of dead stones and trees and Great Men has a kind of wisdom in it. Animism, polytheism, monotheism, are all manifestations of the same ever-developing idea, the idea of the divinity of the universe, of which Pantheism is the logical completion. And there is another kind of truth in the Polytheism of our ancestors: that the worship of Gods rests on ideals, and though the Gods themselves may be inexistent, those ideals can have a remarkable and irrefutable truth to them. Primitive people, like children, have a more developed visual-intelligence; they need an image, a personality, a Zeus, to represent abstract ideas which their minds are not fully developed to appreciate in the abstract. The abstract ideas themselves can be true.

[Starr]

Why are these women marrying muslim men anyway? The media brainwashes white women into idolizing negroes but it's not like some Muhammad Hassan is being marketed as some sort of stud in the media or anything. What is up with white girls these days (with the exception of women like you of course :D)?

They don't really need to be marketed as a stud. with the hordes of them flooding in and the idea that we are all equal it is going to happen.

At the most insane level, there could be some women that are fascinated by and attracted to the whole terrorist image. The ultimate bad boy?:cool:

[Scales]

I demand irrefutable proof that the truth-value of a statement can be determined by specifying the birth-location of the man making the statement.
A man makes the statement: 'I was born in Canada'.

True or not?

:p

[raven]

They don't really need to be marketed as a stud. with the hordes of them flooding in and the idea that we are all equal it is going to happen.

At the most insane level, there could be some women that are fascinated by and attracted to the whole terrorist image. The ultimate bad boy?:cool:
Yeah I'm sure that a terrorist would rank way above black ghetto gangsta in the "bad boy" list. :rofl: Not to mention that a white belgian girl (converted by some stinkin muslim husband) has already committed suicide for Allah in some sort of suicide bombing in Iraq.
I'd imagine this would really impress them,
"yo, yo, yo I used to be cleaning the slurpee machine at 7-11
Now I'm running from bush afta killin 4000 infidels on 9/11
Uh-huh T-Unit, Taliban 4 Life, Gang Rapin' Yo' Wife"

[Atlas]

On a similar note, it seems that many African American being jailed convert to islam during their jail break... can anyone confirm this with a link or a personal experience ?

[Watzy]

Christianity is just as much a semitic cult as Islam, the widespreadedness of conversions from Christianity to Islam is therefore a non-issue from the perspective of a European patriot. It is only an issue to adherents of either of those Semitic cults.

Europe is Christianity. What else is there to unite various nations of Western Eurasia? Surely not a mere geographic expression "Europe".

[Petr]

Europe is Christianity. What else is there to unite various nations of Western Eurasia? Surely not a mere geographic expression "Europe".
This is true. The very word "Europa" is of Phoenician origin:

http://phoenicia.org/europa.html


Petr

[daisy]

on a similar note, it seems that many african american being jailed convert to islam during their jail break... can anyone confirm this with a link or a personal experience ?they are converting many blacks, whites, etc... to the nation of islam in prisons here in u.s.
some white men have told me they joined the nation of islam just while they were in prison so they would watch their backs. they said it's like join the nation of islam or risk getting raped/sodomized by big black thugs in prisons.

[Felix the Cat]

Europe is Christianity. What else is there to unite various nations of Western Eurasia? Surely not a mere geographic expression "Europe".
Is an African who claims to be Christian entitled to settle in Europe? (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=24700#post24700)

Or is Christianity something more than a profession of faith?

[Niko Bellic]

Correct. This article makes it sound as if white women are, by themselves, "finding" Islam. I think that is bull. They are becoming Muslims when they marry Muslim men. Thus the problem is once again mud immigration, not Islam.

It's both, and something else about women. Every woman is born with submissive tendancies, though the extent to which those tendancies influence decision making varies with individuals. Muslim culture provides a perfect place for women who are more submissive than most. I bet these are the same women who enjoy being tied up and whipped during sex.

[Petr]

Is an African who claims to be Christian entitled to settle in Europe? (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=24700#post24700)
They should remain on their own continent and build own national identities for themselves with the help of Christianity - like Ethiopians have done.

(By all practical standards, Ethiopia is the only real "nation-state" in sub-Saharan Africa)


Petr

[raven]

It's both, and something else about women. Every woman is born with submissive tendancies, though the extent to which those tendancies influence decision making varies with individuals. Muslim culture provides a perfect place for women who are more submissive than most. I bet these are the same women who enjoy being tied up and whipped during sex.
So those ugly turd-skins are stealing all the freaks? Dammit.

[Niko Bellic]

So those ugly turd-skins are stealing all the freaks? Dammit.

No.:rofl:

There are still plenty of atheist bondage babes. Visit any gothic nightclub.

[Ixtab]

Europe is Christianity.Proof? Evidence? Facts?

What else is there to unite various nations of Western Eurasia?I am glad you brought this up. Paganism was clearly incapable of carrying out this essential task, with its tribal patriotisms and profound local variations. The universalist teachings of the Jew, Jesus, provided Europe with that uniting and ruling idea, so necessary in those times, and through that idea Constantine was able to establish an overlordship (of the Church) over kings which eliminated much divisiveness. All of this I do not deny. Nor do I deny that the conceptions which rested on the teachings of Jesus interwove with distinctly Hellenic ideas, secondary though they were to the main body of ideas. None of this alters the truth that the religion itself was and is fundamentally Semitic in spirit. I don't criticise Christianity for any of this.
Islam, that other Semitic cult, could have provided Europe with a uniting idea as well. Any universalist religion would have done the job, really.

[Watzy]

Proof? Evidence? Facts?

Was the term 'Europe' used before Christendom penetrated into nations of Western Eurasia?

I am glad you brought this up. Paganism was clearly incapable of carrying out this essential task with its tribal patriotisms and profound local variations.

Our 'Semitic cult' provided answers your ancestors lacked. Romans believed your ancestors can become something more than barbaric animals - they were wrong...

Islam, that other Semitic cult, could have provided Europe with a uniting idea as well.

Himmler's thoughts were similar, yet the Wests and the Slavic partisans were stronger! :rofl:

[Watzy]

Is an African who claims to be Christian entitled to settle in Europe? (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=24700#post24700)

Indeed a complicated question. I have acquainted a priest who is a black African speaking Latin better than my self - yet it doesn't mean all Negroes are like him.

[Kodos]

Indeed a complicated question

No it isn't, the answer is of course not.

[Watzy]

Indeed a complicated question

No it isn't, the answer is of course not.

I wouldn't like to sound simplified, but priests live in celibacy, so what's there to be concerned about? :D

[Kodos]

I wouldn't like to sound simplified, but priests live in celibacy

Except when they don't, although ussually they are engaging in non reproductive ass pounding in such cases.

Im not against all immigrants even from barbarian countries but to accept the principle that all christians from every shithole on earth can immigrate to civilized countries...

[Watzy]

Except when they don't, although ussually they are engaging in non reproductive ass pounding in such cases.

That's the question of fate.

Im not against all immigrants even from barbarian countries but to accept the principle that all christians from every shithole on earth can immigrate to civilized countries...

Same here.

[Ixtab]

Was the term 'Europe' used before Christendom penetrated into nations of Western Eurasia?So what? That doesn't mean Europids didn't exist, and that Christianity is any less Semitic in spirit. The term Europe was coined to refer to something already a reality and not evanescent.

Our 'Semitic cult' provided answers your ancestors lacked.I do not deny this. I have even given one of those answers, which Christianity provided, already.

[Watzy]

So what? That doesn't mean Europids didn't exist

Not in the terms of racial identity. Greeks and Romans regarded other 'Europids' equally barbarous as Asians or North Africans, while other peoples of Europe had their individual tribal identities.


and that Christianity is any less Semitic in spirit.

Quite opposite, I think it is very Helenistic in spirit. Hellenism vanquished by Christianity conquered its victor in turn. It is correct to say that Romans and Greeks are to Christianity what Hebrews are to Judaism and Arabs is to Islam.

The term Europe was coined to refer to something already a reality and not evanescent.

There was no such reality until the Christianization of Europe.

Interpretation of ancient history in terms of modern racialism is clumsy, anachronistic and simply not correct. Gauls 50 BC., or Vikings 800 AD. are 'Europoids' only because you choose to label them as such.

[Slavic Enforcer]

The problem is not islam, but if the converted girl decide to marry a non-white muslim. Race above religion.

I agree.

Best Regards.

[infoterror]

There was no such reality until the Christianization of Europe.

And there still is not such a reality - Western Europe is a far different place than Eastern (lol Slavs).

[Slavic Enforcer]

And there still is not such a reality - Western Europe is a far different place than Eastern (lol Slavs).

Yeah. There are no Negroes in Eastern Europe.

[Watzy]

It's just as bad without physical intermixing because Islam is a plague - potentially more dangerous and evil than Nazism and Communism.

[Fade the Butcher]

The term Europa did have some currency prior to the conversion of Western Europe to Christianity, but only as a geographic designation. 'Africa' was a Roman province. 'Asia' was Anatolia. 'Europa' only came to refer to a distinct cultural unit or civilization during Carolingian times. The Northumbrian monk Alcuin of York was the first person in history to use 'Europa' in this sense during the eighth century. 'Europa' was synonymous Latin Christianity and Charlemagne's empire (and regions within its cultural orbit).

[infoterror]

Yeah. There are no Negroes in Eastern Europe.

No need - it's already full of white niggers!

[Slavic Enforcer]

No need - it's already full of white niggers!

:nono:

Your ancestors practiced colonialism and slavery.

Now eat the fruits of it!

[Ixtab]

Not in the terms of racial identity.I never said otherwise.

Greeks and Romans regarded other 'Europids' equally barbarous as Asians or North Africans, while other peoples of Europe had their individual tribal identities.That is true.

Quite opposite, I think it is very Helenistic in spirit.

[...]

There was no such reality until the Christianization of Europe.That sense of unity came through that Semitic spirit which runs through Christianism. If your semantic relativism prevents you from accepting the term 'European' to refer to any of the medley of peoples that then occupied what is now called Europe, it is enough to understand that the source of the main bodies of Christian ideas does not come from those peoples (call them what you will), that such ideas are largely Semitic in origin. And what of the non-Semitic elements? Mithraistic doctrines and Egyptian theologies run through even the more Hellenistic body of ideas. I can elaborate on this last point if you think it necessary.

[Atlas]

Yeah. There are no Negroes in Eastern Europe.

Yes, the only negroes living in Poland or Ukraine are African ambassadors.

[Watzy]

That sense of unity came through that Semitic spirit that runs through Christianism.

Before the rise of Christianity, Stoicism, the most influential school of the Graeco–Roman world advocated an idea of brotherhood of humanity. This sense of unity emerged as a logical result of development of large and heterogeneous empires such as Alexander's and Roman. Hellenic (and Christian) idea of the universal humanity was (and is) foreign and opposed to the parochial and highly tribal Semitic tradition of Judaism.

If your semantic relativism prevents you from accepting the term 'European' to refer to any of the medley of peoples that then occupied what is now called Europe, it is enough to understand that the sources of the main bodies of Christian ideas do not come from these selfsame peoples (call them what you will), that such ideas are more Semitic in tone and origin.

Again, the universalistic idea is not Semitic in origins. First protagonists of this idea were Greeks and Romans.

[jcs]

Before the rise of Christianity, Stoicism, the most influential school of the Graeco–Roman world advocated an idea of brotherhood of humanity.
Worth noting is that early Christianity, like earlier Classical imperial ideals, didn't push for a 'brotherhood of humanity' inasmuch as a sovereignty of God, of which 'brotherhood' was a consequence. Later Christianity (humanism) highjacked the concept and basically reversed it, using 'sovereignty of God' only as a means of justifying the 'brotherhood of humanity.'
Classical universal sovereignty is to Christian sovereignty of God what Stoicism is to humanism.

Again, the universalistic idea is not Semitic in origins. First protagonists of this idea were Greeks and Romans.
The first proponents of universalism were those who claimed exclusive understanding of the 'Truth' and sought to turn this 'knowledge' into something that could grant them political power.

[Ixtab]

Before the rise of Christianity, Stoicism, the most influential school of the Graeco-Roman world advocated a brotherhood of humanity.Which does little in the way of supporting your original thesis. If this sense of unity, which you regard as so fundamental to the European idea, came through the Greco-Roman route (it only partly did), your assertion that Europe "is" Christianity would seem to be contradicted.

This sense of unity emerged as a logical result of development of large and heterogeneous empires such as Alexander's and Roman.There can be no doubt at all that Christian princes and kings drew inspiration from the preceding Empires of Greece and Rome, and that the sense of unity engendered by those empires complemented Christian universalism--which latter, however, is Semitic and not Hellenic in origin.

Hellenic (and Christian) idea of the universal humanity was (and is) foreign and opposed to the parochial and highly tribal Semitic tradition of Judaism.It is present in the teachings of Jesus Christ, who drew inspiration from a number of sects and currents of thought that existed within Judaism.

Again, the universalistic idea is not Semitic in origins. First protagonists of this idea were Greeks and Romans.All you have managed to do is to point out the obvious truth that universalism is not exclusively of Semitic origin. But the universalism of Christianity, in particular, is Semitic. It is only the logical completion of an idea that is present in the Old Testament and rests on monotheism.

[Watzy]

Which does little in the way of supporting your original thesis. If this sense of unity, which you regard as so fundamental to the European idea, came through the Greco-Roman route, (and it only partly did) your assertion that Europe "is" Christianity would seem to be contradicted.
There's no contradiction between my notion about the Hellenistic spirit of Christianity and my original claim that European identity is built upon the Christian identity.

It is present in the teachings of Jesus Christ, who drew inspiration from a number of sects and currents of thought that existed within Judaism at the time.
Jewish society was exposed to Hellenistic influences long before the time of Jesus. Numerous Jews spoke Greek and were attracted to Greek philosophy.

But the universalism of Christianity, in particular, is Semitic in spirit and tone. It is only the logical completion of an idea that is present in the Old Testament and rests on monotheism.

Universal God of Christian monotheism (or at least Catholic and Orthodox) is not not the same as tribal deity is of the Semitic monotheism. Christian monotheism was a logical completion of Roman Empire, since worshiping one single God fits well along with having one empire, one emperor, one citizenship, one lingua franca...