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Aule
07-24-2007, 08:36 AM
Has anyone here ever encountered a person IRL who fits the description of a "sub-clinical" sociopath? The only person I can think of off hand as falling into this category would be my stepmother's eldest son. He could never keep a stable job, routinely tortured small animals, stole gas from three different gas stations whilst travelling cross country and was finally caught with a mountain of child porn stashed in his trunk. He's now serving an eight year sentence in a federal penitentiary on the Kentucky-Ohio border.

PSYCHOPATHS AMONG US

Dr. Robert Hare claims there are 300,000 psychopaths in Canada, but that only a tiny fraction are violent offenders like Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen. Who are the rest? Take a look around

By Robert Hercz

"Psychopath! psychopath!"

I'm alone in my living room and I'm yelling at my TV. "Forget rehabilitation -- that guy is a psychopath."

Ever since I visited Dr. Robert Hare in Vancouver, I can see them, the psychopaths. It's pretty easy, once you know how to look. I'm watching a documentary about an American prison trying to rehabilitate teen murderers. They're using an emotionally intense kind of group therapy, and I can see, as plain as day, that one of the inmates is a psychopath. He tries, but he can't muster a convincing breakdown, can't fake any feeling for his dead victims. He's learned the words, as Bob Hare would put it, but not the music.

The incredible thing, the reason I'm yelling, is that no one in this documentary -- the therapists, the warden, the omniscient narrator -- seems to know the word "psychopath." It is never uttered, yet it changes everything. A psychopath can never be made to feel the horror of murder. Weeks of intense therapy, which are producing real breakthroughs in the other youths, will probably make a psychopath more likely to reoffend. Psychopaths are not like the rest of us, and everyone who studies them agrees they should not be treated as if they were.

I think of Bob Hare, who's in New Orleans receiving yet another award, and wonder if he's watching the same show in his hotel room and feeling the same frustration. A lifetime spent looking into the heads of psychopaths has made the slight, slightly anxious emeritus professor of psychology at the University of British Columbia the world's best-known expert on the species. Hare hasn't merely changed our understanding of psychopaths. It would be more accurate to say he has created it.

The condition itself has been recognized for centuries, wearing evocative labels such as "madness without delirium" and "moral insanity" until the late 1800s, when "psychopath" was coined by a German clinician. But the term (and its 1930s synonym, sociopath) had always been a sort of catch-all, widely and loosely applied to criminals who seemed violent and unstable. Even into the mid-1970s, almost 80 percent of convicted felons in the United States were being diagnosed as sociopaths. In 1980, Hare created a diagnostic tool called the Psychopathy Checklist, which, revised five years later, became known as the PCL-R. Popularly called "the Hare," the PCL-R measures psychopathy on a forty-point scale. Once it emerged, it was the first time in history that everyone who said "psychopath" was saying the same thing. For research in the field, it was like a starting gun.

But for Hare, it has turned out to be a Pandora's box. Recently retired from teaching, his very last Ph.D. student about to leave the nest, Hare, sixty-eight, should be basking in professional accolades and enjoying his well-earned rest. But he isn't.

The PCL-R has slipped the confines of academe, and is being used and misused in ways that Hare never intended. In some of the places where it could do some good -- such as the prison in the TV documentary I was yelling at -- the idea of psychopathy goes unacknowledged, usually because it's politically incorrect to declare someone to be beyond rehabilitation. At the opposite extreme, there are cases in which Hare's work has been overloaded with political baggage of another sort, such as in the United States, where a high PCL-R score is used to support death-penalty arguments, and in England, where a debate is underway about whether some individuals with personality disorders (such as psychopaths) should be detained even if they haven't committed a crime.

So, after decades of labour in peaceful obscurity, Bob Hare has become a man with a suitcase, a passport, and a PowerPoint presentation, a reluctant celebrity at gatherings of judges, attorneys, prison administrators, psychologists, and police. His post-retirement mission is to be a good shepherd to his Psychopathy Checklist.

"I'm protecting it from erosion, from distortion. It could easily be compromised," he says. "I'm a scientist; I should just be doing basic research, but I'm being called on all the time to intervene and mediate."

And it's really just beginning. Psychopathy may prove to be as important a construct in this century as IQ was in the last (and just as susceptible to abuse), because, thanks to Hare, we now understand that the great majority of psychopaths are not violent criminals and never will be. Hundreds of thousands of psychopaths live and work and prey among us. Your boss, your boyfriend, your mother could be what Hare calls a "subclinical" psychopath, someone who leaves a path of destruction and pain without a single pang of conscience. Even more worrisome is the fact that, at this stage, no one -- not even Bob Hare -- is quite sure what to do about it.

Bob hare has to meet me in the lobby of the UBC psychology building, since he's not listed in the directory. He's had threats, by e-mail and in person. An ex-con showed up one day, angry that a friend of his had been declared a dangerous offender thanks to Hare's checklist. Other characters have appeared in his lab doorway, looking in and saying nothing.

We immediately find ourselves discussing the criminal du jour, the jet-setting French con man Christophe Rocancourt, notorious for passing himself off as a member of the Rockefeller family, who has just been arrested in Victoria.

"I'd sure as hell like to have a close look at him," Hare muses.

Like every scientist, Hare likes a good puzzle, and that was reason enough to make a career out of psychopaths. "These were particularly interesting human beings," he says. "Everything about them seemed to be paradoxical. They could do things that a lot of other people could not do" -- lie, steal, rape, murder -- "but they looked perfectly normal, and when you talked to them they seemed okay. It was a puzzle. I thought I'd try and unravel it."

Hare arrived at UBC in 1963, intending to follow up his doctoral research on punishment. Certain prisoners, it was rumoured, didn't respond to punishment, and Hare went to the federal penitentiary in New Westminster, British Columbia, to find these extreme cases. (He found plenty. In his chilling 1993 book on psychopathy, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us, he quotes one specimen's memories: "[M]y mother, the most beautiful person in the world. She was strong, she worked hard to take care of four kids. A beautiful person. I started stealing her jewellery when I was in the fifth grade. You know, I never really knew the bitch -- we went our separate ways.")

For his first paper, now a classic, Hare had his subjects watch a countdown timer. When it reached zero, they got a "harmless but painful" electric shock while an electrode taped to their fingers measured perspiration. Normal people would start sweating as the countdown proceeded, nervously anticipating the shock. Psychopaths didn't sweat. They didn't fear punishment -- which, presumably, also holds true outside the laboratory. In Without Conscience, he quotes a psychopathic rapist explaining why he finds it hard to empathize with his victims: "They are frightened, right? But, you see, I don't really understand it. I've been frightened myself, and it wasn't unpleasant."

In another Hare study, groups of letters were flashed to volunteers. Some of them were nonsense, some formed real words. The subject's job was to press a button whenever he recognized a real word, while Hare recorded response time and brain activity. Non-psychopaths respond faster and display more brain activity when processing emotionally loaded words such as "rape" or "cancer" than when they see neutral words such as "tree." With psychopaths, Hare found no difference. To them, "rape" and "tree" have the same emotional impact -- none.

Hare made another intriguing discovery by observing the hand gestures (called beats) people make while speaking. Research has shown that such gestures do more than add visual emphasis to our words (many people gesture while they're on the telephone, for example); it seems they actually help our brains find words. That's why the frequency of beats increases when someone is having trouble finding words, or is speaking a second language instead of his or her mother tongue. In a 1991 paper, Hare and his colleagues reported that psychopaths, especially when talking about things they should find emotional, such as their families, produce a higher frequency of beats than normal people. It's as if emotional language is a second language -- a foreign language, in effect -- to the psychopath.

Three decades of these studies, by Hare and others, has confirmed that psychopaths' brains work differently from ours, especially when processing emotion and language. Hare once illustrated this for Nicole Kidman, who had invited him to Hollywood to help her prepare for a role as a psychopath in Malice. How, she wondered, could she show the audience there was something fundamentally wrong with her character?

"I said, 'Here's a scene that you can use,' " Hare says. " 'You're walking down a street and there's an accident. A car has hit a child in the crosswalk. A crowd of people gather round. You walk up, the child's lying on the ground and there's blood running all over the place. You get a little blood on your shoes and you look down and say, "Oh shit." You look over at the child, kind of interested, but you're not repelled or horrified. You're just interested. Then you look at the mother, and you're really fascinated by the mother, who's emoting, crying out, doing all these different things. After a few minutes you turn away and go back to your house. You go into the bathroom and practice mimicking the facial expressions of the mother.' " He then pauses and says, "That's the psychopath: somebody who doesn't understand what's going on emotionally, but understands that something important has happened."

Hare's research upset a lot of people. Until the psychopath came into focus, it was possible to believe that bad people were just good people with bad parents or childhood trauma and that, with care, you could talk them back into being good. Hare's research suggested that some people behaved badly even when there had been no early trauma. Moreover, since psychopaths' brains were in fundamental ways different from ours, talking them into being like us might not be easy. Indeed, to this day, no one has found a way to do so.

"Some of the things he was saying about these individuals, it was unheard of," says Dr. Steven Stein, a psychologist and ceo of Multi-Health Systems in Toronto, the publisher of the Psychopathy Checklist. "Nobody believed him thirty years ago, but Bob hasn't wavered, and now everyone's where he is. Everyone's come full circle, except a small group who believe it's bad upbringing, family poverty, those kinds of factors, even though scientific evidence has shown that's not the case. There are wealthy psychopaths who've done horrendous things, and they were brought up in wonderful families."

"There's still a lot of opposition -- some criminologists, sociologists, and psychologists don't like psychopathy at all," Hare says. "I can spend the entire day going through the literature -- it's overwhelming, and unless you're semi-brain-dead you're stunned by it -- but a lot of people come out of there and say, 'So what? Psychopathy is a mythological construct.' They have political and social agendas: 'People are inherently good,' they say. 'Just give them a hug, a puppy dog, and a musical instrument and they're all going to be okay.' "

If Hare sounds a little bitter, it's because a decade ago, Correctional Service of Canada asked him to design a treatment program for psychopaths, but just after he submitted the plan in 1992, there were personnel changes at the top of CSC. The new team had a different agenda, which Hare summarizes as, "We don't believe in the badness of people." His plan sank without a trace.

By the late 1970s, after fifteen years in the business, Bob Hare knew what he was looking for when it came to psychopaths. They exhibit a cluster of distinctive personality traits, the most significant of which is an utter lack of conscience. They also have huge egos, short tempers, and an appetite for excitement -- a dangerous mix. In a typical prison population, about 20 percent of the inmates satisfy the Hare definition of a psychopath, but they are responsible for over half of all violent crime.

The research community, Hare realized, lacked a standard definition. "I found that we were all talking a different language, we were on different diagnostic pages, and I decided that we had to have some common instrument," he says. "The PCL-R was really designed to make it easier to publish articles and to let journal editors and reviewers know what I meant by psychopathy."

The Psychopathy Checklist consists of a set of forms and a manual that describes in detail how to score a subject in twenty categories that define psychopathy. Is he (or, more rarely, she) glib and superficially charming, callous and without empathy? Does he have a grandiose sense of self worth, shallow emotions, a lack of remorse or guilt? Is he impulsive, irresponsible, promiscuous? Did he have behavioural problems early in life? The information for each category must be carefully drawn from documents such as court transcripts, police reports, psychologists' reports, and victim-impact statements, and not solely from an interview, since psychopaths are superb liars ("pathological lying" and "conning/manipulative" are PCL-R categories). A prisoner may claim to love his family, for example, while his records show no visits or phone calls.

For each item, assessors -- psychologists or psychiatrists -- assign a score of zero (the item doesn't apply), one (the item applies in some respects), or two (the item applies in most respects). The maximum possible score is forty, and the boundary for clinical psychopathy hovers around thirty. Last year, the average score for all incarcerated male offenders in North America was 23.3. Hare guesses his own score would be about four or five.

In 1980, Hare's initial checklist began circulating in the research community, and it quickly became the standard. At last count nearly 500 papers and 150 doctoral dissertations had been based on it.

It's also found practical applications in police-squad rooms. Soon after he delivered a keynote speech at a conference for homicide detectives and prosecuting attorneys in Seattle three years ago, Hare got a letter thanking him for helping solve a series of homicides. The police had a suspect nailed for a couple of murders, but believed he was responsible for others. They were using the usual strategy to get a confession, telling him, 'Think how much better you'll feel, think of the families left behind,' and so on. After they'd heard Hare speak they realized they were dealing with a psychopath, someone who could feel neither guilt nor sorrow. They changed their interrogation tactic to, "So you murdered a couple of prostitutes. That's minor-league compared to Bundy or Gacy." The appeal to the psychopath's grandiosity worked. He didn't just confess to his other crimes, he bragged about them.

The most startling finding to emerge from Hare's work is that the popular image of the psychopath as a remorseless, smiling killer -- Paul Bernardo, Clifford Olson, John Wayne Gacy -- while not wrong, is incomplete. Yes, almost all serial killers, and most of Canada's dangerous offenders, are psychopaths, but violent criminals are just a tiny fraction of the psychopaths around us. Hare estimates that 1 percent of the population -- 300,000 people in Canada -- are psychopaths.

He calls them "subclinical" psychopaths. They're the charming predators who, unable to form real emotional bonds, find and use vulnerable women for sex and money (and inevitably abandon them). They're the con men like Christophe Rocancourt, and they're the stockbrokers and promoters who caused Forbes magazine to call the Vancouver Stock Exchange (now part of the Canadian Venture Exchange) the scam capital of the world. (Hare has said that if he couldn't study psychopaths in prisons, the Vancouver Stock Exchange would have been his second choice.) A significant proportion of persistent wife beaters, and people who have unprotected sex despite carrying the AIDS virus, are psychopaths. Psychopaths can be found in legislatures, hospitals, and used-car lots. They're your neighbour, your boss, and your blind date. Because they have no conscience, they're natural predators. If you didn't have a conscience, you'd be one too.

Psychopaths love chaos and hate rules, so they're comfortable in the fast-moving modern corporation. Dr. Paul Babiak, an industrial-organizational psychologist based near New York City, is in the process of writing a book with Bob Hare called When Psychopaths Go to Work: Cons, Bullies and the Puppetmaster. The subtitle refers to the three broad classes of psychopaths Babiak has encountered in the workplace.

"The con man works one-on-one," says Babiak. "They'll go after a woman, marry her, take her money, then move on and marry someone else. The puppet master would manipulate somebody to get at someone else. This type is more powerful because they're hidden." Babiak says psychopaths have three motivations: thrill-seeking, the pathological desire to win, and the inclination to hurt people. "They'll jump on any opportunity that allows them to do those things," he says. "If something better comes along, they'll drop you and move on."

How can you tell if your boss is a psychopath? It's not easy, says Babiak. "They have traits similar to ideal leaders. You would expect an ideal leader to be narcissistic, self-centred, dominant, very assertive, maybe to the point of being aggressive. Those things can easily be mistaken for the aggression and bullying that a psychopath would demonstrate. The ability to get people to follow you is a leadership trait, but being charismatic to the point of manipulating people is a psychopathic trait. They can sometimes be confused."

Once inside a company, psychopaths can be hard to excise. Babiak tells of a salesperson and psychopath -- call him John -- who was performing badly but not suffering for it. John was managing his boss -- flattering him, taking him out for drinks, flying to his side when he was in trouble. In return, his boss covered for him by hiding John's poor performance. The arrangement lasted until John's boss was moved. When his replacement called John to task for his abysmal sales numbers, John was a step ahead.

He'd already gone to the company president with a set of facts he used to argue that his new boss, and not he, should be fired. But he made a crucial mistake. "It was actually stolen data," Babiak says. "The only way [John] could have obtained it would be for him to have gone into a file into which no one was supposed to go. That seemed to be enough, and he was fired rather than the boss. Even so, in the end, he walked out with a company car, a bag of money, and a good reference."

"A lot of white-collar criminals are psychopaths," says Bob Hare. "But they flourish because the characteristics that define the disorder are actually valued. When they get caught, what happens? A slap on the wrist, a six-month ban from trading, and don't give us the $100 million back. I've always looked at white-collar crime as being as bad or worse than some of the physically violent crimes that are committed."

The best way to protect the workplace is not to hire psychopaths in the first place. That means training interviewers so they're less likely to be manipulated and conned. It means checking resumés for lies and distortions, and it means following up references.

Paul Babiak says he's "not comfortable" with one researcher's estimate that one in ten executives is a psychopath, but he has noticed that they are attracted to positions of power. When he describes employees such as John to other executives, they know exactly whom he's talking about. "I was talking to a group of human-resources executives yesterday," says Babiak, "and every one of them said, you know, I think I've got somebody like that."

By now, you're probably thinking the same thing. The number of psychopaths in society is about the same as the number of schizophrenics, but unlike schizophrenics, psychopaths aren't loners. That means most of us have met or will meet one. Hare gets dozens of letters and e-mail messages every month from people who say they recognize someone they know while reading Without Conscience. They go on to describe a brother, a sister, a husband. " 'Please help my seventeen-year-old son. . . .' " Hare reads aloud from one such missive. "It's a heart-rending letter, but what can I do? I'm not a clinician. I have hundreds of these things, and some of them are thirty or forty pages long."

Hare's book opened my eyes, too. Reading it, I realized that I might have known a psychopath, Jonathan, at the computer company where I worked in London, England, over twenty years ago. He was charming and confident, and from the moment he arrived he was on excellent terms with the executive inner circle. Jonathan had big plans and promised me that I was a big part of them. One night when I was alone in the office, Jonathan appeared, accompanied by what anyone should have recognized as two prostitutes. "These are two high-ranking staff from the Ministry of Defence," he said without missing a beat. "We're going over the details of a contract, which I'm afraid is classified top secret. You'll have to leave the building." His voice and eyes were absolutely persuasive and I complied. A few weeks later Jonathan was arrested. He had embezzled tens of thousands of pounds from the small firm, used the company as a mailing address for a marijuana importing business he was running on the side, and robbed the apartment of the company's owner, who was letting him stay there temporarily.

Like everyone who has been suckered by a psychopath -- and Bob Hare includes himself and many of his graduate students (who have been trained to spot them) in that list -- I'm ashamed that I fell for Jonathan. But he was brilliant, charismatic, and audacious. He radiated money and power (though in fact he had neither), while his real self -- manipulative, lying, parasitic, and irresponsible -- was just far enough under his surface to be invisible. Or was it? Maybe I didn't know how to look, or maybe I didn't really want to.

I saw his name in the news again recently. "A con man tricked top sports car makers Lotus into lending him a £70,000 model . . . then stole it and drove 6,000 miles across Europe, a court heard," the story began.

Knowing Jonathan is probably a psychopath makes me feel better. It's an explanation.

But away from the workplace, back in the world of the criminally violent psychopath, Hare's checklist has become broadly known, so broadly known, in fact, that it is now a constant source of concern for him. "People are misusing it, and they're misusing it in really strange ways," Hare says. "There are lots of clinicians who don't even have a manual. All they've seen is an article with the twenty items -- promiscuity, impulsiveness, and so forth -- listed."

In court, assessments of the same person done by defence and prosecution "experts" have varied by as much as twenty points. Such drastic differences are almost certainly the result of bias or incompetence, since research on the PCL-R itself has shown it has high "inter-rater reliability" (consistent results when a subject is assessed by more than one qualified assessor). In one court case, it was used to label a thirteen-year-old a psychopath, even though the PCL-R test is only meant to be used to rate adults with criminal histories. The test should be administered only by mental-health professionals (like all such psychological instruments, it is only for sale to those with credentials), but a social worker once used the PCL-R in testimony in a death-penalty case -- not because she was qualified but because she thought it was "interesting."

It shouldn't be used in death-penalty cases at all, Hare says, but U.S. Federal District Courts have ruled it admissible because it meets scientific standards.

"Bob and others like myself are saying it doesn't meet the ethical standards," says Dr. Henry Richards, a psychopathy researcher at the University of Washington. "A psychological instrument and diagnosis should not be a determinant of whether someone gets the death sentence. That's more of an ethical and political decision."

And into the ethical and political realm -- the realm of extrapolation, of speculation, of opinion -- Hare will not step. He's been asked to be a guest on Oprah (twice), 60 Minutes, and Larry King Live. Oprah wanted him alongside a psychopath and his victim. "I said, 'This is a circus,' " Hare says. "I couldn't do that." 60 Minutes also wanted to "make it sexy" by throwing real live psychopaths into the mix. Larry King Live phoned him at home while O. J. Simpson was rolling down the freeway in his white Bronco. Hare says no every time (while his publisher gently weeps).

Even in his particular area, Hare is unfailingly circumspect. Asked if he thinks there will ever be a cure for psychopathy -- a drug, an operation -- Hare steps back and examines the question. "The psychopath will say 'A cure for what?' I don't feel comfortable calling it a disease. Much of their behaviour, even the neurobiological patterns we observe, could be because they're using different strategies to get around the world. These strategies don't have to involve faulty wiring, just different wiring."

Are these people qualitatively different from us? "I would think yes," says Hare. "Do they form a discrete taxon or category? I would say probably -- the evidence is suggesting that. But does this mean that's because they have a broken motor? I don't know. It could be a natural variation." True saints, completely selfless individuals, are rare and unnatural too, he points out, but we don't talk about their being diseased.

Psychopathy research is raising more questions than it can answer, and many of them are leading to moral and ethical quagmires. For example: the PCL-R has turned out to be the best single predictor of recidivism that has ever existed; an offender with a high PCL-R score is three or four times more likely to reoffend than someone with a low score. Should a high PCL-R score, then, be sufficient grounds for denying parole? Or perhaps a psychopathy test could be used to prevent crime by screening individuals or groups at high risk -- for example, when police get a frantic "My boyfriend says he'll kill me" call, or when a teacher reports a student threatening to commit violence. Should society institutionalize psychopaths, even if they haven't broken the law?

The United Kingdom, partly in response to the 1993 abduction and murder of two-year-old James Bulger by two ten-year-olds, and partly in response to PCL-R data, is in the process of creating a new legal classification called Dangerous and Severe Personality Disorder (DSPD). As it stands, the government proposes to allow authorities to detain people declared DSPD, even if they have not committed a crime. (Sample text from one of the Web sites that have sprung up in response: "I was diagnosed with an untreatable personality disorder by a doctor who saw me for ten minutes, he later claimed I was a psychopath. . . . Please don't let them do this to me; don't let them do it to anybody. I'm not a danger to the public, nor are most mentally ill people.")

Hare is a consultant on the DSPD project, and finds the potential for abuse of power horrifying. So do scientists such as Dr. Richard Tees, head of psychology at UBC, a colleague of Hare's since 1965. "I am concerned about our political masters deciding that the PCL-R is the silver bullet that's going to fix everything," he says. "We'll let people out [of prison] on the basis of scores on this, and we'll put them in. And we'll take children who do badly on some version of this and segregate them or something. It wasn't designed to do any of these things. The problems that politicians are trying to solve are fundamentally more complicated than the one that Bob has solved."

So many of these awkward questions would vanish if only there were a functioning treatment program for psychopathy. But there isn't. In fact, several studies have shown that existing treatment makes criminal psychopaths worse. In one, psychopaths who underwent social-skills and anger-management training before release had an 82 percent reconviction rate. Psychopaths who didn't take the program had a 59 percent reconviction rate. Conventional psychotherapy starts with the assumption that a patient wants to change, but psychopaths are usually perfectly happy as they are. They enrol in such programs to improve their chances of parole. "These guys learn the words but not the music," Hare says. "They can repeat all the psychiatric jargon -- 'I feel remorse,' they talk about the offence cycle -- but these are words, hollow words."

Hare has co-developed a new treatment program specifically for violent psychopaths, using what he knows about the psychopathic personality. The idea is to encourage them to be better by appealing not to their (non-existent) altruism but to their (abundant) self-interest.

"It's not designed to change personality, but to modify behaviour by, among other things, convincing them that there are ways they can get what they want without harming others," Hare explains. The program will try to make them understand that violence is bad, not for society, but for the psychopath himself. (Look where it got you: jail.) A similar program will soon be put in place for psychopathic offenders in the UK.

"The irony is that Canada could have had this all set up and they could have been leaders in the world. But they dropped the ball completely," Hare says, referring to his decade-old treatment proposal, sitting on a shelf somewhere within Corrections Canada.

Even if Hare's treatment program works, it will only address the violent minority of psychopaths. What about the majority, the subclinical psychopaths milling all around us? At the moment, the only thing Hare and his colleagues can offer is self-protection through self-education. Know your own weaknesses, they advise, because the psychopath will find and use them. Learn to recognize the psychopath, they tell us, before adding that even experts are regularly taken in.

After thirty-five years of work, Bob Hare has brought us to the stage where we know what psychopathy is, how much damage psychopaths do, and even how to identify them. But we don't know how to treat them or protect the population from them. The real work is just beginning. Solving the puzzle of the psychopath is an invigorating prospect -- if you're a scientist. Perhaps the rest of us can be forgiven for our impatience to see the whole thing come to an end.

Source (http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html)

calvin
09-26-2007, 05:12 PM
“grandiose sense of self worth, shallow emotions, a lack of remorse or guilt… impulsive, irresponsible, promiscuous”

It seems likely that these “psychopathic “ traits are simply extreme manifestations of more or less normal traits. Psychopathology may show different patterns of distribution for different human groups. It would seem to be logical that human groups that evolved in circumstances in which altruism and empathy were less imperative. It would seem to reasonable to consider that some human groups could both produce more psychopaths and be generally more psychopathic than other groups.

Petr
09-26-2007, 06:34 PM
(some surrealistic speculation here, do not take too seriously)

I have sometimes wondered if sociopaths would become more compassionate if they were tortured. If they were exposed to extreme pain and suffering, perhaps they would learn to empathize with other people's sufferings as well.

Sociopaths are proud, selfish people. Their pride must be smashed, their twisted egos must be annihilated.


Petr

Dr. Gutberlet
09-26-2007, 06:38 PM
I have been labeled as such in the past, by various jew psychiatrists. Being empathy-impaired is something I cannot control, though I do a fair job of acting as if I do empathise. Yet, despite being a sociopath, I am able to put on a front of normality and finish university as well as hold a well-paying job. I am sure most corporate heads are sociopaths. One must be in order to survive these times. Petr, your solution to our problem reeks of psychopathy.

Petr
09-26-2007, 06:43 PM
Petr, your solution to our problem reeks of psychopathy.
Fight fire with fire, eh:

"You stinking sociopath, I shall torture you until you learn to be more loving and compassionate!" :p


Seriously, I do believe in the general principle that cruel people must be dealt in a cruel manner. Their own actions must be made to boomerang back at them.


Petr

Petr
09-26-2007, 06:53 PM
Yet, despite being a sociopath, I am able to put on a front of normality and finish university as well as hold a well-paying job. I am sure most corporate heads are sociopaths.
Yeah, that's what all juvenile psychos, or should we say wannabe-psychos say. ("I'm gonna be a Hannibal Lecter when I grow up!")

One veteran poster here once said to me in a rep that your "'worldview' seems to be informed by the liner notes of shitty, death metal albums."


Petr

Dr. Gutberlet
09-26-2007, 06:56 PM
Fight fire with fire, eh:

"You stinking sociopath, I shall torture you until you learn to be more loving and compassionate!" :p


Seriously, I do believe in the general principle that cruel people must be dealt in a cruel manner. Their own actions must be made to boomerang back at them.


Petr

I never stated that I was cruel. I have never killed or harmed anyone outside of the usual scuffles, etc which we all have encountered at one point or another. Do I think not being able to truly feel emotions is "cool" or "badass"? Of course not. However, I am quite tired of acting and displaying the "appropriate" emotional reactions when I truly feel nothing.

sugartits
09-26-2007, 07:17 PM
I never stated that I was cruel. I have never killed or harmed anyone outside of the usual scuffles, etc which we all have encountered at one point or another. Do I think not being able to truly feel emotions is "cool" or "badass"? Of course not. However, I am quite tired of acting and displaying the "appropriate" emotional reactions when I truly feel nothing.


Ever check out this book
http://www.amazon.com/Psychopaths-Bible-Extreme-Individual/dp/1561841749
?

It has a cheesy title and is basically pop-philosophy, a decent read nonetheless. Jivin' like shitty death metal influenced coles notes to Robert Anton Wilson.

"Remember, everyone is a psychopath!"

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id703/pg1/

Hartmann von Aue
09-26-2007, 08:19 PM
I have been labeled as such in the past, by various jew psychiatrists. Being empathy-impaired is something I cannot control, though I do a fair job of acting as if I do empathise. Yet, despite being a sociopath, I am able to put on a front of normality and finish university as well as hold a well-paying job. I am sure most corporate heads are sociopaths. One must be in order to survive these times. Petr, your solution to our problem reeks of psychopathy.

Those "psychiatrists" in Sweden are little better than thought-police friend.

Stay away from them.

Starr
09-26-2007, 08:46 PM
“grandiose sense of self worth, shallow emotions, a lack of remorse or guilt… impulsive, irresponsible, promiscuous”

It seems likely that these “psychopathic “ traits are simply extreme manifestations of more or less normal traits. Psychopathology may show different patterns of distribution for different human groups. It would seem to be logical that human groups that evolved in circumstances in which altruism and empathy were less imperative. It would seem to reasonable to consider that some human groups could both produce more psychopaths and be generally more psychopathic than other groups.


yes, they are. These traits exist in all of us to varying degrees. They can also be brought to the surface in extreme circumstances, war,etc. It is really just self interest taken to an extreme degree. These psychopathic traits we all have are pretty much encouraged and played to in modern society. How many people today think even for a second about who they might have to step to get what they want? How many people out there care for not much more than their own pleasures?

cerberus
09-26-2007, 09:26 PM
These folks seem never to learn from their mistakes , they are in their own eyes always the victim whatever goes wrong in their lives blame is attributed to others or circumstances beyond their own contol.
Some can be very talented and creative individuals , others are never far from the self destruct button.
Emotionally they are cold , indifferent , love does not touch them nor can they give it in return.
In its worst form these folks can do great harm to themselves and to others , learning is beyond them , they are generally immature and irresposnsible.

As far as psychiatry being a tool of the Jews - forget it - .

calvin
09-26-2007, 10:50 PM
I think it might be wrong to portray psychopaths as emotionless, I think that they can experience anger, fear and pride; it seems to me that they lack the ability empathise. Perhaps their exaggerated sense of worth and consequent evaluation of others as comparatively worthless, means that they understand the consequences that their behaviour has on others, but simply do not think that these others are important enough to be concerned about?

Dr. Gutberlet
09-26-2007, 10:52 PM
I think it might be wrong to portray psychopaths as emotionless, I think that they can experience anger, fear and pride; it seems to me that they lack the ability empathise. Perhaps their exaggerated sense of worth and consequent evaluation of others as comparatively worthless, means that they understand the consequences that their behaviour has on others, but simply do not think that these others are important enough to be concerned about?

I would agree with these statements. I'll have you know that my "empathy-impaired" statement on the profile was there long before this thread. Interesting that I would make such an open evaluation of my own self.

Kodos
09-26-2007, 11:01 PM
(some surrealistic speculation here, do not take too seriously)

I have sometimes wondered if sociopaths would become more compassionate if they were tortured.


That may work with teenage punks, but not the real thing.

They'll just want to revenge themselves on the world.

Jimbo Gomez
09-26-2007, 11:30 PM
Sociopaths are proud, selfish people. Their pride must be smashed, their twisted egos must be annihilated.


Petr


For some reason, I expected this line to come from fade the butcher. It sounds like something he would write.

maxsnafu
09-27-2007, 04:59 PM
Fight fire with fire, eh:

"You stinking sociopath, I shall torture you until you learn to be more loving and compassionate!" :p





Petr

Sounds like a variation on "The floggings will continue until morale improves."

Baron_Corvo
09-29-2007, 09:03 PM
I think it might be wrong to portray psychopaths as emotionless, I think that they can experience anger, fear and pride; it seems to me that they lack the ability empathise. Perhaps their exaggerated sense of worth and consequent evaluation of others as comparatively worthless, means that they understand the consequences that their behaviour has on others, but simply do not think that these others are important enough to be concerned about?

From my memory of abnormal psychology classes many years ago, psychopaths don't feel fear either though they may well feel pride and anger. Their inability to empathise with others is their outstanding characteristic though.

Starr
09-29-2007, 09:09 PM
From my memory of abnormal psychology classes many years ago, psychopaths don't feel fear either though they may well feel pride and anger. Their inability to empathise with others is their outstanding characteristic though.


Yes, I remember seeing a show about a study they conducted on convicted serial killers vs. regular people. They were all put in a room and told that at a certain time something unexpected was going to happen. As the time started to get close the regular people began to show signs of being nervous, breaking out in a sweat, shaking a bit,etc. The serial killers remained very calm. It was pretty interesting.

Edit: this sounds very similar to what I saw:

For his first paper, now a classic, Hare had his subjects watch a countdown timer. When it reached zero, they got a "harmless but painful" electric shock while an electrode taped to their fingers measured perspiration. Normal people would start sweating as the countdown proceeded, nervously anticipating the shock. Psychopaths didn't sweat. They didn't fear punishment -- which, presumably, also holds true outside the laboratory. In Without Conscience, he quotes a psychopathic rapist explaining why he finds it hard to empathize with his victims: "They are frightened, right? But, you see, I don't really understand it. I've been frightened myself, and it wasn't unpleasant."

Anarch
09-30-2007, 05:29 AM
From my memory of abnormal psychology classes many years ago, psychopaths don't feel fear either though they may well feel pride and anger. Their inability to empathise with others is their outstanding characteristic though.
The psychopath is effectively the ultimate egocentrist. Law, morality, social conventions, collective identities - all are either obstacles or weapons, not structures to be lived within and upheld for their own sake. Other 'humans' (the question might be raised as to whether psychopaths are another form of homo sapiens, of sorts) are not viewed in the same way as properly functioning humans view each other - they're viewed as objects that speak and move and are simply tools for gratification in some way or other. Life - every aspect of it - is viewed as a kind of 'sport' where success, even if at the expense of others (which is seen as irrelevant), is desirable, and this attitude is something they see as a sort of natural order, with the rest of the human race being oddly perverted. True, not all psychopaths are violent, sure. But all psychopaths have something missing. Whether you call it a soul, or a moral sense, or some sort of pre-linguistic incapacity to recognise an innate value of the autonomy of other humans, I don't think is relevant. I also don't think there's a magic silver bullet. Petr's idea of torturing some sense into them is simply stupid. I'm not sure of a solution but Petr's idea is just dumb. Perhaps a good means to educate psychopaths into trying hard not to get caught, though.

Petr
09-30-2007, 06:00 AM
The psychopath is effectively the ultimate egocentrist. Law, morality, social conventions, collective identities - all are either obstacles or weapons, not structures to be lived within and upheld for their own sake. Other 'humans' (the question might be raised as to whether psychopaths are another form of homo sapiens, of sorts) are not viewed in the same way as properly functioning humans view each other - they're viewed as objects that speak and move and are simply tools for gratification in some way or other.
I have sometimes noticed in myself this tendency in its mild form, to consider obnoxious people as some kind of irritating objects that I'd like to smash into pieces. I'm also of the type that gets angry to dead objects, like wanting to break the chair I hurt my foot on.

I believe there's a little bit of psychopath is each of us, more in some than in others. Enough environmental pressure could bring these hidden traits forward, and turn some "normal" person into a psychopath, like some soldier waging a long, dirty irregular war could get hardened, used to executing (or raping) civilians for only slight provocations.


Petr

Helios Panoptes
09-30-2007, 06:03 AM
I'm also of the type that gets angry to dead objects, like wanting to break the chair I hurt my foot on.

I shamefully admit that I have done this, myself. In fact, I've destroyed objects in a fit of anger.

Thomas777
09-30-2007, 06:08 AM
I shamefully admit that I have done this, myself. In fact, I've destroyed objects in a fit of anger.

It begs the question as to what is more malevolent: Acting aggressively towards an inanimate object that has facilitatied an injury, or feeling genuine hostility towards persons who represent a subjectively offensive type but have not directly harmed you.

I experience the latter quite a bit, especially with respect to the fairer sex.

Anarch
09-30-2007, 06:24 AM
It begs the question as to what is more malevolent: Acting aggressively towards an inanimate object that has facilitatied an injury, or feeling genuine hostility towards persons who represent a subjectively offensive type but have not directly harmed you.

I experience the latter quite a bit, especially with respect to the fairer sex.

And so the difference between rage and indignation. I say indignation is more severe: rage is temporary. Rage makes you break a chair or someone's nose. Indignation takes on exponentially more dangerous proportions. Also, I don't think rage can be experienced except individually. Indignation, however, produces the fate of Carthage.

Petr: I'm wondering whether you've also noticed the idea of the psychopath as approximating the most proper incarnate form of all seven deadly sins.

Helios Panoptes
09-30-2007, 06:25 AM
It begs the question as to what is more malevolent: Acting aggressively towards an inanimate object that has facilitatied an injury, or feeling genuine hostility towards persons who represent a subjectively offensive type but have not directly harmed you.

I experience the latter quite a bit, especially with respect to the fairer sex.

It is disappointing to me that I have become so angry with inanimate objects that I wound up destroying them. I value composure and I don't like to lose mine.

As for what you said, I know what you mean. I see people whom I don't know anything about and I find myself loathing them for no apparent reason. I don't like the looks of them, even though there is nothing outwardly offensive about them, and that is enough. This does not distress me as much, although I find it peculiar, because it is contained. I do not do anything, that is. Besides, even if I were to do something malicious to a person for no good reason, at least I could comfort myself with the understanding that my actions matter, the person is impacted by them emotionally. When I smash an object, I just wind up feeling like a fool. I exerted myself for nothing.

Then again, all this thinking about how my actions would make someone feel is itself perplexing. I can't figure out why I would want to make a person feel happy or sad, experience pain or pleasure. It's all just ego masturbation. Sorry about the stream of consciousness nature of this post...

Petr
09-30-2007, 06:34 AM
Petr: I'm wondering whether you've also noticed the idea of the psychopath as approximating the most proper incarnate form of all seven deadly sins.
"Seven deadly sins" is a medieval Roman Catholic invention. Protestants don't pay too much attention to the concept.


Petr

Thomas777
09-30-2007, 06:38 AM
Then again, all this thinking about how my actions would make someone feel is itself perplexing. I can't figure out why I would want to make a person feel happy or sad, experience pain or pleasure. It's all just ego masturbation. Sorry about the stream of consciousness nature of this post...

Man wishes to act in the world...this sort of thing can't be quantified by empirical methods.

I hate the fairer sex because they make me feel desire, which leads to longing, yet (on account of present social circumstances) this entire process has no value, but it still yields misery...so I want to attack the stimulus.

In a broader sense, thoughts and emotions are purely idiosyncratic unless they are expressed through action. If this were not the case, revolutionaries would be content to merely think about what they perceive as injustice.

il ragno
09-30-2007, 07:27 AM
"Seven deadly sins" is a medieval Roman Catholic invention. Protestants don't pay too much attention to the concept.


Petr

Ouch. Petr administering the beatdown, with a surgeon's scalpel yet.

See, Lenny? See how it's done?

But seriously folks, I can't say I buy into a lot of this. I don't argue there are a lot of conscienceless bastards out there - most of us have known one, been related to one, worked for one (or two, or five...), even from time to time been one. Since Hare's "point" seems to be that this quasi-condition (or more properly, "state of being") is not localized or particularized by ethnicity, race, gender, level of education, criminal tendency, economic circumstance, social strata....not even traumatic childhood, I ask: well what the hell is the point of assigning an arbitrary category to a "condition" that not only defies and transcends all categories, but may not even be a condition in the first place? Because, as the article says, do-gooders and political/academic/scientific mediocrities are almost certainly going to use these findings [in dumbed-down checklist form] as a "scientific" determinant for medicating, jailing, committing and conceivably executing people.

Look at the opening paragraph of the essay and you'll see that what Hare has loosed is not a methodology as much as a license for blowhards and paranoids to spot remorseless killers and Ponzi-schemers in sidewalk cracks and cloud formations. Such as the author, who's figured out he's better qualified to pick out bonafide psychopaths from garden-variety violent felons on tv, from his barcalounger, in between hair-restoration and erectile-dysfunction-pill commercials, than the people who do this work for a living 365 days of every year. Bizarre, to say the least.

Better to say that perhaps Hare's work will prove to be the infancy of something important - some new and useful way of looking at and identifying aberrant psychology. Perhaps. As it stands, though, we in the West are already drowning in fatalism and morbid imaginings, without scientific "facts" like Psychopaths Surround Us At All Times to point to for justification.

Jake Featherston
09-30-2007, 09:31 AM
I know a person whom I suspect is a psychopath. I also very strongly suspect he murdered a woman (she was the victim of an unsolved murder about 25 years ago, and he was an acquaintance of hers; the woman was a co-worker of his mother, and she was stabbed to death by a pair of scissors taken from the drawer of his mother's desk; I also know him to be a very violent person, having seriously injured a number of people in street gang-type conflicts in the late 1970s & early 1980s). I've often thought of going to the police (its only in recent years that I formulated the theory he killed that woman), but I doubt it would do any good. Its very unlikely they could ever prove he did it, even if he did (and I'm pretty sure he is guilty). Hell, the building in which the murder took place no longer even stands. But one fact about the guy keeps making me wonder if maybe I shouldn't report my suspicions to the police after all. You see, back in the mid-1990s, when he'd be all wired up on meth (I didn't even do that stuff back then, but he was living with a friend of mine at that time, and so I spent a lot of time in his company when he was on that stuff), he'd spend many hours in a row engaged in two somewhat disturbing activities (he was often still engaged in them by the time I'd leave): He had a collection of bolt locks for doors, that he would pick over and over again, seeing how quickly he could pick them. And when he wasn't doing that, he'd spend his time sharpening knives. I so wish I were kidding. A guy whom I already suspect of being both a murderer and a psychopath (for the record, it should be noted I know this guy about as well as anyone on Earth ever has) who spends his time picking locks (and, as I recall, timing himself with a stopwatch, and trying to beat his best times while doing it) and sharpening knives, sounds an awful lot like maybe a freakin' serial killer.

One reason I'm reluctant to go to the police is, as I indicated, we used to be very, very close, and I know damn well that he'd know I was the guy who went to the police. And that worries me.

Jake Featherston
09-30-2007, 09:36 AM
I shamefully admit that I have done this, myself. In fact, I've destroyed objects in a fit of anger.

Yeah, I have that tendency myself, although less so as I get older. I can remember as a child, my father laughing at me as I kicked the ground in fury for its having tripped me.

harjit
09-30-2007, 09:46 AM
In Japan I have met several foreigners over the years who brag about how they seduce Japanese women and use them to make their lives easier here, and get the girls to pay for everything, and how they juggle multiple girls like that.

Some stories display an astonishing lack of conscience. I wonder if they are just bragging to look like they are super-studs or bad-ass, or whatever. Perhaps this would indicate that they are NOT sociopaths, in that they want to impress the listener.

Such people also display a complete lack of respect or even curiosity in Japan and its language and culture, they just brag about what a great gig they've got going.

Jake Featherston
09-30-2007, 10:10 AM
Some stories display an astonishing lack of conscience. I wonder if they are just bragging to look like they are super-studs or bad-ass, or whatever. Perhaps this would indicate that they are NOT sociopaths, in that they want to impress the listener.

On the contrary, psychopaths (or sociopaths, if you prefer; same thing) are even more keen than the rest of us to be well-regarded by others. And they usually are (at least for a while). That one guy I referenced above was a case in point; he was always very highly regarded whenever he entered a new social circle, but he'd have to move on after a while, because people would eventually be onto his game and come to hold him in contempt. This seemed to be part of his strategy for getting through life, and he'd take maximum advantage while he was still perceived positively in the beginning.

Petr
09-30-2007, 10:12 AM
On the contrary, psychopaths (or sociopaths, if you prefer; same thing) are even more keen than the rest of us to be well-regarded by others. And they usually are (at least for a while). That one guy I referenced above was a case in point; he was always very highly regarded whenever he entered a new social circle, but he'd have to move on after a while, because people would eventually be onto his game and come to hold him in contempt.
Now what individual does that remind us of...


Also, collectively speaking, the Jews might be considered to be a sociopathic nation. The Talmud has taught them to regard Goyim as categorically lower creatures to be exploited at will. Chabad hardliners even deny the humanity of Gentiles outright:


What would you do if a racist cult tried to build its headquarters in your neighborhood? What if the cult targeted specifically young people, teaching them that all Christians and Muslims are:-

1. evil, Satanic creatures from birth (making all Gentile babies´"little demons");
2. no better than worms;
3. not really living beings at all, but already "dead;"
4. all to be forcibly converted or subjugated by the "Messiah," whose arrival it is their sacred duty to hasten.

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5172&highlight=chabad


The Jews also perform big-time PR operations in order to make themselves look good in the eyes of other peoples, who may eventually get fed up with their behavior after having initially quite a positive impression of them. Sometimes they have to move out entirely and find a new audience...


Petr

Helios Panoptes
09-30-2007, 10:30 AM
I know a person whom I suspect is a psychopath. I also very strongly suspect he murdered a woman (she was the victim of an unsolved murder about 25 years ago, and he was an acquaintance of hers; the woman was a co-worker of his mother, and she was stabbed to death by a pair of scissors taken from the drawer of his mother's desk

I'd imagine they would have looked into him at the time.

I wouldn't get involved if I were in your spot. You've got nothing to gain and if the cops questioned him about it and concluded that he didn't do it, then you've got some nut with a grudge against you.

Jake Featherston
09-30-2007, 10:48 AM
I'd imagine they would have looked into him at the time.

I don't think they did, actually. I suspect his youth (he was only 15-16 or so at the time), combined with the more innocent ethos of the time (the very early 1980s), combined to make the police not perceive him as a realistic suspect. But I know him well enough to say that he was.

I wouldn't get involved if I were in your spot. You've got nothing to gain and if the cops questioned him about it and concluded that he didn't do it, then you've got some nut with a grudge against you.

Yeah, that's pretty much my take as well. But it leaves me with a somewhat hollow feeling inside.

Mark
09-30-2007, 11:57 AM
I wouldn't get involved if I were in your spot. You've got nothing to gain and if the cops questioned him about it and concluded that he didn't do it, then you've got some nut with a grudge against you.

Problem is, the kind of person Jake described often cannot stop. How about a cleverly-devised, anonymous tip?

Jake Featherston
09-30-2007, 12:02 PM
Problem is, the kind of person Jake described often cannot stop. How about a cleverly-devised, anonymous tip?

The problem with that tactic is my belief that he would know it was me, irrespective of the anonymous character of the tip. Very few other people would suspect him (as far as I know, my father is the only human being on this planet, other than myself, who suspects him, although I wonder about his mother). Even if someone else tipped the cops off, I still think he'd believe it was me. I could be wrong, but I know this guy pretty damn well, and I think his mind would focus on me in this regard.

Helios Panoptes
09-30-2007, 12:05 PM
The problem with that tactic is my belief that he would know it was me, irrespective of the anonymous character of the tip. Very few other people would suspect him (as far as I know, my father is the only human being on this planet, other than myself, who suspects him, although I wonder about his mother).

A mother isn't likely to call in an anonymous tip unless she dislikes her son. I would not, for example, suspect my mother if someone tipped off the cops about me, not there is anything to alert them of to begin with.

Jake Featherston
09-30-2007, 12:12 PM
A mother isn't likely to call in an anonymous tip unless she dislikes her son. I would not, for example, suspect my mother if someone tipped off the cops about me, not there is anything to alert them of to begin with.

I suspect she's not particularly fond of her son. I used to know her too, but I haven't seen her in many years.

Slavic Enforcer
09-30-2007, 12:18 PM
Has anyone here ever encountered a person IRL who fits the description of a "sub-clinical" sociopath? The only person I can think of off hand as falling into this category would be my stepmother's eldest son. He could never keep a stable job, routinely tortured small animals, stole gas from three different gas stations whilst travelling cross country and was finally caught with a mountain of child porn stashed in his trunk. He's now serving an eight year sentence in a federal penitentiary on the Kentucky-Ohio border.


Seriously, do you think he deserves to live?

Jim West
09-30-2007, 07:07 PM
“grandiose sense of self worth, shallow emotions, a lack of remorse or guilt… impulsive, irresponsible, promiscuous”David Duke?

Dr. Gutberlet
10-01-2007, 01:43 PM
The psychopath is effectively the ultimate egocentrist. Law, morality, social conventions, collective identities - all are either obstacles or weapons, not structures to be lived within and upheld for their own sake. Other 'humans' (the question might be raised as to whether psychopaths are another form of homo sapiens, of sorts) are not viewed in the same way as properly functioning humans view each other - they're viewed as objects that speak and move and are simply tools for gratification in some way or other. Life - every aspect of it - is viewed as a kind of 'sport' where success, even if at the expense of others (which is seen as irrelevant), is desirable, and this attitude is something they see as a sort of natural order, with the rest of the human race being oddly perverted. True, not all psychopaths are violent, sure. But all psychopaths have something missing. Whether you call it a soul, or a moral sense, or some sort of pre-linguistic incapacity to recognise an innate value of the autonomy of other humans, I don't think is relevant. I also don't think there's a magic silver bullet. Petr's idea of torturing some sense into them is simply stupid. I'm not sure of a solution but Petr's idea is just dumb. Perhaps a good means to educate psychopaths into trying hard not to get caught, though.

So, am I merely a product of the modern world? One in which we are groomed to believe ourselves as being the center of all?

Jake Featherston
10-02-2007, 12:47 AM
So, am I merely a product of the modern world? One in which we are groomed to believe ourselves as being the center of all?

If so, then you didn't resist enough.

Crowley
10-02-2007, 01:17 AM
I still know one sociopath. He is presently rotting away in a tiny fleabag hotel room downtown without any friends but his pain pills and one poor little cat who must have done something very bad in her previous 9 lives.

il ragno
10-02-2007, 01:18 AM
I still know one sociopath. He is presently rotting away in a tiny fleabag hotel room downtown without any friends but his pain pills and one poor little cat who must have done something very bad in a previous 9 lives.

I don't see where someone like that is victimizing society. Or anybody besides himself.

Crowley
10-02-2007, 01:23 AM
I don't see where someone like that is victimizing society. Or anybody besides himself.

This is true, now. Back in our youth he was part of our crowd and he would visit and steal things from our apartments to sell for his drug habit. Now he has no friends. He was very smart and charming which worked for him for years but finally his lack of giving of anything resulted in his present predicament.

il ragno
10-02-2007, 02:37 AM
Ah...well then he's not much of a sociopath then, or surely by now he'd be an assistant DA, or the anchorman of your local Action News, or perhaps the secretly-still-using director of a halfway house.

Thomas777
10-02-2007, 03:07 AM
I'm not up to speed on the popular vernacular, but to me, a psychopath is somebody several magnitudes of ''evil" beyond merely stealing from or hurting people when is convenient.

At risk of sounding melodramatic, you know when you are dealing with a psychopath because when you look into his eyes they're purely animal...reptilian almost. There just isn't anything there.

I only knew one man who was like that...he's the only person I've ever met that I couldn't look in the eye. Genuine psychopaths not only don't value human life, they don't have the visceral response to violence that the rest of us do. It just simply doesn't matter.

I suppose those are the sorts of guys that are good to share a foxhole with, but they're maladapted, evolutionary throwbacks in any other field of endeavor.

Ratatoskur
10-02-2007, 02:35 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy

I remember once on Oprah (yeah, so?) some couple of years ago, some mulatto chick was on that had gone through the windshield of her car in a T-bone and basically landed on her forehead some visceral number of yards from her car. She required some insane reconstructive surgery, titanium plates etc.
Anyhow, her frontal lobe was all munched up, and she became a bit sociopathic; stealing, soliciting sex with close family members, that sort of stuff. Anyhow, somehow her brain figured a way to compensate (or they simply doused her with cold water and yelled "No! Bad girl!" when needed) so she kinda functioned without being a total case of put-me-down-for-your-own-good after some years, at least good enough for Oprah to fawn over.

Then there's this guy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahad_Israfil

And speaking of reptilian, here's a guy that fed living people to rats for a fee and killed people for no good reason in his spare time.
There's a psychiatrist interviewing him, and he babbles some that may be relevant to the discussion.

Confessions of a Mafia Hitman - Google vid (http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/dark_secrets_hitman.htm)

Anyhow, from the examples I gave, it is obvious that the brain may extensively rewire itself after traumatic injury,and I think it is fair to say that people can have life (brain) altering experiences like almost dying, PTSD, 'shrooms, and manner of happenings. If any of you gun-toting Americans have known a war veteran,i.e. from before his serving and reacquainted after his serving, did they sociopathically rewire as a survival mechanism? Any similar anecdotes in your bag of bones?

Dr. Gutberlet
10-02-2007, 02:39 PM
If so, then you didn't resist enough.


Why would one resist being treated almost akin to a prince by one's own family? I could literally do no wrong, which is odd when you consider that my siblings were not treated as such.

cerberus
10-02-2007, 04:25 PM
Ratatoskur
I remember once on Oprah (yeah, so?) some couple of years ago, some mulatto chick was on that had gone through the windshield of her car in a T-bone and basically landed on her forehead some visceral number of yards from her car. She required some insane reconstructive surgery, titanium plates etc.
Anyhow, her frontal lobe was all munched up, and she became a bit sociopathic; stealing, soliciting sex with close family members, that sort of stuff. Anyhow, somehow her brain figured a way to compensate (or they simply doused her with cold water and yelled "No! Bad girl!" when needed) so she kinda functioned without being a total case of put-me-down-for-your-own-good after some years, at least good enough for Oprah to fawn over.
Brain damage as a result of trauma and being judged to be sociopathic are really very different.
Frontal lobes , for better or worse influence / control our ability to make judgements.

Ratatoskur
10-02-2007, 04:32 PM
I wasn't really trying to make a point with that little anecdote, I would have provided a simple link had I remembered the woman's name. I was trying to commandeer the thread and steer it into the waters of neuroscience.

Instead of, say, torturing sociopaths.

cerberus
10-02-2007, 05:28 PM
Ratatoskur , apologies - only read your post - didn't see what went before.
Early surgery to relieve the symptoms of schizophrenia was done on the frontal lobes - awful thing to do to people.

Zubenelgenubi
10-02-2007, 06:53 PM
I lived with a sociopath at a co-op. He took a video I had rented, and when I asked if he had it, he said no. I didn't get it back until he moved out, when I found it in his room, and had to pay $30 in overdue fees.

He also dated this disgustingly rich college student who was also a heroin addict. It turned out she was actually engaged to a big time heroin dealer, and the day after he moved to Maine two guys with baseball bats reportedly showed up at our door and asked if he was in.

I'm pretty sure "sociopath" was invented as a PC term for "psychopath", just as "antisocial personality disorder" is now the PC term for both.

Crowley
10-03-2007, 12:25 AM
I make a distinction between sociopath and psychopath. Sociopathy is the more common condition of the person who only cares about themselves to an extreme and will lie at the drop of a hat without batting an eyelash, etc. etc. Small time stuff that nevertheless alienates the people around them.

Psychopaths on the other hand commit crimes in the same blasé fashion that the sociopath steals out of your apartment but in the case of the psychopath the police are looking for them.

Kodos
10-03-2007, 03:52 AM
I only knew one man who was like that...he's the only person I've ever met that I couldn't look in the eye.

Juniour year in high school I worked at Star Market over the summer, being the summer high school kid I got even shittier jobs then most who worked there. Throwing some old boxes full of stuff (really old) into this compactor
in the basement. There was a cleaning crew down there, one guy I looked in the eye...

I was fucking scared. Nothing there at all... and I don't exactly have a great intuitive sense about people.

Jake Featherston
10-03-2007, 04:46 AM
Why would one resist being treated almost akin to a prince by one's own family? I could literally do no wrong, which is odd when you consider that my siblings were not treated as such.

Yes, it is unlikely someone would resist that. And in the final analysis, you are the way you are; you have no way of knowing if its better or worse to experiene an ordinary degree of empathy.

Baron_Corvo
10-05-2007, 06:26 AM
Ratatoskur

Brain damage as a result of trauma and being judged to be sociopathic are really very different.
Frontal lobes , for better or worse influence / control our ability to make judgements.

I remember a similar, tragic case of an eight year old boy in the UK who murdered a younger one after contracting encephalitis.

Helios Panoptes
10-05-2007, 08:01 AM
Juniour year in high school I worked at Star Market over the summer, being the summer high school kid I got even shittier jobs then most who worked there. Throwing some old boxes full of stuff (really old) into this compactor
in the basement. There was a cleaning crew down there, one guy I looked in the eye...

I was fucking scared. Nothing there at all... and I don't exactly have a great intuitive sense about people.

That is puzzling. You're saying that you looked at a guy whom you didn't know anything about and determined that he is a psychopath. That is difficult for me to believe.

Kamandi
10-05-2007, 06:09 PM
I'm pretty sure "sociopath" was invented as a PC term for "psychopath", just as "antisocial personality disorder" is now the PC term for both.
The team which compiled the DSM-IV diagnostic guide felt that the terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" had been too compromised by overloading with social connotations to be clinical. Most practitioners agree.

Basil Fawlty
10-05-2007, 08:43 PM
DSM belongs next to Malleus Maleficarum on any bookshelf. Certainly not anywhere near the Science section.

Kamandi
10-05-2007, 09:00 PM
Hard to say - any taxonomy of the categories of a subjective science will be arbitrary and subjective to some degree. There IS some established objective science behind the DSM-IV, at the very least, imperfect as it might be.

Basil Fawlty
10-05-2007, 09:18 PM
Care to give us some examples of "objective science" behind DSM?

SteamshipTime
10-05-2007, 09:47 PM
There was a cleaning crew down there, one guy I looked in the eye...

I was fucking scared. Nothing there at all... and I don't exactly have a great intuitive sense about people.

I think you and Thomas make a very good point, and to see it is so viscerally disturbing it makes you want to buy six firearms and sleep with them loaded by your bed.

I can't really recall any such encounters in real life. I was watching TV once and saw a report on some bum who had viciously murdered a young boy. It was just like you say: dark eyes with nothing in them. Like a rabid dog. It even came thru on TV.

This is one reason I believe in the soul: seeing people that don't have one. On a spiritual plane somewhere, a dark entity has taken it. Call me a Bible-thumping kook if you must. Something is going on there that is beyond mental illness.

Felix the Cat
10-05-2007, 10:53 PM
I'm wondering if men are born with predispositions to be farmers or hunters, but not both

Some of the "psycho" characteristics mentioned here would only be considered liabilities by the first group

Crowley
10-05-2007, 11:07 PM
Who wants a psycho in their hunting party?

Felix the Cat
10-05-2007, 11:23 PM
I was thinking along the lines of people who are good at stalking/killing things (both 2 and 4 legged), rather than tending/managing things

I wonder to what degree these tendencies are innate/learned

Baron_Corvo
10-06-2007, 06:15 AM
The team which compiled the DSM-IV diagnostic guide felt that the terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" had been too compromised by overloading with social connotations to be clinical. Most practitioners agree.

Any term for the same category of people would be, it's in the nature both of the beast and of modern sensationalist mass media.. The only distinction I would make is between both psychopaths and sociopaths and those people whom Scott Peck called "people of the lie" in his book of the same name, who are truly evil. You definitely don't want to know any of them.

BTW, the most succinct definition of psychopathy I heard was in a British television program (though by an American psychologist); "total identification with the predator".

Kodos
10-06-2007, 07:39 AM
That is puzzling. You're saying that you looked at a guy whom you didn't know anything about and determined that he is a psychopath. That is difficult for me to believe.

Im not saying I was right, but something about making eye contact with this guy scared the shit out of me. The eyes weren't dark btw, clear blue.

Greenberg
10-09-2007, 08:51 AM
Reminds me of a guy I knew in high school. He dropped out in grade 11 I think, stole drugs, money, and other things from people that he knew, not just random strangers he met at a party or something. I heard one time he even stole someone's grandpa's war medals, which they found in his knapsack. He was the most impulsive and reckless person I've ever met. I remember one time seeing him walk across an apartment parking lot late at night with a katana....