Racial claptrap.

[MrAngry]

I come to a messageboard to converse with rational, civil people not to be a sitting duck for snotty cyberpunks who get off on irritating people to get a rise out them because they are starved for attention or to listen to irrational goofballs spew out nonsense. I want to learn from others and offer what I have learned in return. The people whom I put on ignore have nothing positive to offer and a lot of negative stuff that I don't need.

Translated to
"I want to learn only if it fits my belief structure everything else must be lies and therefore dismissed. I want to learn only from people that share my values and beliefs. Anyone I put on ignore I close my eyes and ears to".


While you and I disagree on many issues, I don't put you on ignore because you a rational, civil man who presents his opinions in a like manner. You also have a good sense of humor. Few anti-racists and philo-semites do. Those that do, I pay attention to.

My point exactly.


Too extreme, hmmm? You are staying at a youth hostel where you have to share a room with a stranger. The manager tells you that he has two people to choose from--a black man and an Indian (or white) man--and tells YOU to choose sight unseen between them.

Stupid, stupid question. The Indian and White man have facial scars and are dressed like "gangsta's". Who would you choose?

Is this indicative of the racialist argument, that all judgments are based on the colour of one's skin, or their ethnicity? Is it difficult to understand that a persons appearance and deeds allows you to make an informed decision about them.

Some racists are so blinded by their own prejudice it beggars belief.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Maybe you'd feel different if you lived in the blackest section of London.

[Winston]

Stupid, stupid question. The Indian and White man have facial scars and are dressed like "gangsta's". Who would you choose?

Is this indicative of the racialist argument, that all judgments are based on the colour of one's skin, or their ethnicity? Is it difficult to understand that a persons appearance and deeds allows you to make an informed decision about them.

Some racists are so blinded by their own prejudice it beggars belief.

Typically ill-thought-out, anti-racist garbage.

Hold on. You talk about prejudice and judging someone by their skin colour as negatives, and at the same time realise that appearance as well as deeds can be enough information to make a fair judgement. Wouldn't choosing a room mate based on facial scars or style of dress be prejudicial?

Personally, if such contradictions were rife in my worldview, I'd either look for a new one or just give up on having opinions...

Catch the news lately? Were those Manchester shootings carried out by scar-faced white men or white men with unfortunate fashion sense, or were they black? At this time I don't believe the identity of the killers is known, but I guarantee you they are not white. That's prejudice, AKA post-judice, AKA wisdom at work there.

[MrAngry]

Maybe you'd feel different if you lived in the blackest section of London.


1979 -1981 lived in Brixton south London. Is that black enough? :)

[MrAngry]

Typically ill-thought-out, anti-racist garbage.

Hold on. You talk about prejudice and judging someone by their skin colour as negatives, and at the same time realise that appearance as well as deeds can be enough information to make a fair judgment. Wouldn't choosing a room mate based on facial scars or style of dress be prejudicial?

How is this the same, everyone discriminates, but the questions posed where asking to discriminate based solely on colour. The more information you have the better judgment call one can make, you're right though, the black guy could still rob you if he were dressed in top hat and tails.


Personally, if such contradictions were rife in my worldview, I'd either look for a new one or just give up on having opinions...

Contradictions, how so?



Catch the news lately? Were those Manchester shootings carried out by scar-faced white men or white men with unfortunate fashion sense, or were they black? At this time I don't believe the identity of the killers is known, but I guarantee you they are not white. That's prejudice, AKA post-judice, AKA wisdom at work there.

You can't guarantee anything, the balance of probability would suggest that they were non white, because recent history shows us that this is likely to be the case. To suggest that this violent minority is representative of all non whites is ridiculous.

[Winston]

How is this the same, everyone discriminates, but the questions posed where asking to discriminate based solely on colour. The more information you have the better judgment call one can make, you're right though, the black guy could still rob you if he were dressed in top hat and tails.

Contradictions, how so?

You can't draw the line at prejudicial judgements based on race. Knowing a person's race is just another piece of information from which to make a judgement. There is nothing inherently wrong with using knowledge of racial differences to decide how you want to proceed.


You can't guarantee anything, the balance of probability would suggest that they were non white, because recent history shows us that this is likely to be the case. To suggest that this violent minority is representative of all non whites is ridiculous.

This violent minority might not represent the entire race, but it does represent the problems that come with having that race living here. Each race leaves a collective footprint, the consequences of which cannot in any practical way be dealt with at the individual level. By all means treat people that you meet as individuals if you like, but when it comes to the important task of running a country and looking out for the best interests of the natives, these important group differences ought to be considered.

[Starr]

"I want to learn only if it fits my belief structure everything else must be lies and therefore dismissed. I want to learn only from people that share my values and beliefs. Anyone I put on ignore I close my eyes and ears to".

It would be very difficult to find, anyone, mr. angry who does pick and choose what thoughts, beliefs or ideas to give more weight to, according to which thoughts, beliefs, or ideas coincide a little better with their own. That does not mean one automatically refuses to learn to new things or to come to some new conclusions. I have seen changes in some of my own views and detected changes in others from time to time, even people on "your side."
And of course those among us who are racially conscious whites are going to seek out and share ideas and opinions with people of like mind. Again, something everyone does and not just on the Internet, of course, either. The added push for people like us, though is that we share views that are extremely important to us and are not polite to discuss in society. The anti racist/pro diversity,etc.etc. opinions are something we can come across anywhere and we have heard it all before.

What he seemed, at least to me, to be talking about in that post is not ignoring people who disagree with him, he can hold his own in a debate, I believe he was referring to people who flame or use too much sarcasm. If one is interested in mostly serious debate, these posts don't accomplish much in that regard.

How is this the same, everyone discriminates, but the questions posed where asking to discriminate based solely on colour. The more information you have the better judgment call one can make, you're right though, the black guy could still rob you if he were dressed in top hat and tails.

Why is prejudgement based on race something that is automatically wrong or to be avoided, while discrimination based in other areas or other characteristics is somehow more reasoned or OK? Not all members of any group you might prejudge(former prison inmates, people who might dress a certain way, males with an excess of tattoos and fat people are a few that come to my mind that are going to be prejudged in a certain way) are going to fit a certain stereotype in the same way all members of a racial group will not fit the stereotype. If all too many members of a certain racial group display certain behavioral characteristics, as opposed to people of other races, doesn't it make perfect sense to at least believe an individual of said race is going to be more likely, than others to display those characteristics more common to his racial group? This is something that is foolish to ignore and a lot of people, at least subconiously do not, anyway.

[Empress Cheesatine]

1979 -1981 lived in Brixton south London. Is that black enough? :)

I wouldn't know, I've never been there. But I can't imagine a civilized person living amongst baboons and not noticing the smell... Unless he's a baboon himself.

[MrAngry]

You can't draw the line at prejudicial judgements based on race. Knowing a person's race is just another piece of information from which to make a judgement. There is nothing inherently wrong with using knowledge of racial differences to decide how you want to proceed.

It's how you define it and how you interpret it. I will concede that if I was in Manchester and faced with white hooded thugs, I would imagine that on the balance of probability I'd get a good kicking. If faced with black hooded thugs I would imagine that on the balance of probability I would get stabbed, with a slim chance of getting shot.

However the judgment is made using more information, typically in recent months most fatal teenage crime in the UK has been committed by black teenagers.



This violent minority might not represent the entire race, but it does represent the problems that come with having that race living here. Each race leaves a collective footprint, the consequences of which cannot in any practical way be dealt with at the individual level. By all means treat people that you meet as individuals if you like, but when it comes to the important task of running a country and looking out for the best interests of the natives, these important group differences ought to be considered.


In that case should all the Irish have been expelled at the height of the troubles?

[Starr]

I will concede that if I was in Manchester and faced with white hooded thugs, I would imagine that on the balance of probability I'd get a good kicking. If faced with black hooded thugs I would imagine that on the balance of probability I would get stabbed, with a slim chance of getting shot.

Plenty of fools would kick you and call you a bigot for saying this, mr angry. After all, you are thinking in collective terms due to what you have experienced or heard about in terms of one racial group as opposed to another. You are supposed to judge every single one of them solely as individuals.

[MrAngry]

Plenty of fools would kick you and call you a bigot for saying this, mr angry. After all, you are thinking in collective terms due to what you have experienced or heard about in terms of one racial group as opposed to another. You are supposed to judge every single one of them solely as individuals.


It all depends on the situation Starr, there are white area's that I wouldn't go into, I'm sure whites wouldn't go into those areas unless they were part of that community. You make decisions based on experience, what you see and what your prejudices are.

[Starr]

It all depends on the situation Starr, there are white area's that I wouldn't go into, I'm sure whites wouldn't go into those areas unless they were part of that community. You make decisions based on experience, what you see and what your prejudices are.


yes, certainly there are white areas that have a higher crime rate than other white areas, but there seems to be a pretty consistant pattern with black neighborhoods and crime. You, yourself took notice of and stated a pattern. There would be people out there who would call you a racist for doing so.

[MrAngry]

yes, certainly there are white areas that have a higher crime rate than other white areas, but there seems to be a pretty consistant pattern with black neighborhoods and crime. You, yourself took notice of and stated a pattern. There would be people out there who would call you a racist for doing so.


Do you think so? I don't it's a bit like saying the Chinese tend to be polite and hardworking.

The black guys I tend to know socially and through work tend to be hard working, professional and decent. It's just that a minority of black youngsters tend to use more extreme methods to exact revenge or demand "respect", which is laughable in itself. I do get sick and tired of the molly coddling of teenagers of any race, particularly as this PC overly liberal society we live in has failed to maintain the respect and discipline of bygone years.

And no, I don't believe it is the fault of immigration. :)

[Julian Curtis Lee]

How is this the same, everyone discriminates, but the questions posed where asking to discriminate based solely on colour.
Nobody uses their precious discrimination on "color" alone. Or even primarily. I don't think it's ever happened once in the history of the world. That's an empty idea. Race involves far more differences that color. Even when I was a little kid, I noticed that Blace people were distinguished by more than mere color.

Get rid of the bromides and wake up your intellect.

[Starr]

That 'skin color" becomes associated in people's minds with certain common behavior patterns to the group in question. If differences were truly only skin deep as so many people love to say these associations would not be as likely to occur and last as they have.
I also noticed certain things from a very young age, mainly that blacks were more loud and crude, and therefore I felt much more uncomfortable around them.

[MrAngry]

That 'skin color" becomes associated in people's minds with certain common behavior patterns to the group in question. If differences were truly only skin deep as so many people love to say these associations would not be as likely to occur and last as they have.

But why focus merely on the negative?



I also noticed certain things from a very young age, mainly that blacks were more loud and crude, and therefore I felt much more uncomfortable around them.

I would say that I have known loud and crude who were white too, blacks in poor areas are generally more brash though.

[Winston]

I would say that I have known loud and crude who were white too, blacks in poor areas are generally more brash though.

Many, many blacks display the sort of behavioural characteristics which, when seen in whites, we would have no problems with criticising and being open about wishing to avoid.

[MrAngry]

Many, many blacks display the sort of behavioural characteristics which, when seen in whites, we would have no problems with criticising and being open about wishing to avoid.

And why is there an issue with criticising this behaviour regardless of colour?

[Starr]

And why is there an issue with criticising this behaviour regardless of colour?

Certain behaviors are to be criticised no matter what the race. I think some people are even more disturbed by such behaviors in whites, since they might hold whites to a higher standard than they do blacks. This is even true of those who might not like to admit it. look, for examples, at excuses that are made for blacks. You are not going to see this to the same kind of extent with whites. When blacks commit a crime, they need to be "understood" or are some kind of victim of something or other. When a white man commits a crime, he is a bad person, end of story.

All some of us do, that make people uncomfortable(probably because they know on some level that it is true) is point out that certain behaviors are much more common of blacks.

[Baron_Corvo]

Certain behaviors are to be criticised no matter what the race. I think some people are even more disturbed by such behaviors in whites, since they might hold whites to a higher standard than they do blacks. This is even true of those who might not like to admit it. look, for examples, at excuses that are made for blacks. You are not going to see this to the same kind of extent with whites. When blacks commit a crime, they need to be "understood" or are some kind of victim of something or other. When a white man commits a crime, he is a bad person, end of story.

All some of us do, that make people uncomfortable (probably because they know on some level that it is true) is point out that certain behaviors are much more common of blacks.

Hence the need for debate. Isn't it clear that people of all races are affected by others' low expectations of them (give a dog a bad name) etc.?

[Starr]

Hence the need for debate. Isn't it clear that people of all races are affected by others' low expectations of them (give a dog a bad name) etc.?


Not untrue. Negroes have been treated with kids gloves and taught to see themselves as victims who don't have much hope of ever making anything of themelves in a society that "holds them down", this victim mentality also increases their rebelllious tendencies making it even more likely that they will embrace any negative influences that are thrown their way, gangsta rap,etc.(I say "more" since there are racial factors at work also in why they are more likely to embrace such influences) Blacks can improve from the state they are in today, but this does not mean that we should ignore that racial differences do exist and expect that they will magically one day be on the same level as whites or are compatable(as a whole)with white society.

[Burrhus]

As there is no proper attribution for this quote I will presume that the author is MrAngry. If I am wrong, please correct me: "I want to learn only if it fits my belief structure everything else must be lies and therefore dismissed. I want to learn only from people that share my values and beliefs. Anyone I put on ignore I close my eyes and ears to".

Billions of lines of text are published in English yearly. No one can read them all. One must be selective. When I read a number of texts by some author and find them to be irrational and incoherent, I assign him to the list of those not worthy of the limited time at my disposal.

I am always willing to change my position when confronted by experience or a rational argument that exposes my argument as being flawed.

It would be very difficult to find, anyone, mr. angry who does pick and choose what thoughts, beliefs or ideas to give more weight to, according to which thoughts, beliefs, or ideas coincide a little better with their own. That does not mean one automatically refuses to learn to new things or to come to some new conclusions. I have seen changes in some of my own views and detected changes in others from time to time, even people on "your side."

And of course those among us who are racially conscious whites are going to seek out and share ideas and opinions with people of like mind. Again, something everyone does and not just on the Internet, of course, either. The added push for people like us, though is that we share views that are extremely important to us and are not polite to discuss in society. The anti racist/pro diversity,etc.etc. opinions are something we can come across anywhere and we have heard it all before.

What he (Is "he" me, Burrhus?) seemed, at least to me, to be talking about in that post is not ignoring people who disagree with him, he can hold his own in a debate, I believe he was referring to people who flame or use too much sarcasm. If one is interested in mostly serious debate, these posts don't accomplish much in that regard.

For the first misguided half of my 60 years I was an all-too-typical liberal who believed in the equality of races and the fiction of some universal humanity. Experience and study taught me to reconsider my position. I changed. If and when further experience and study convince me that that change was an error, I will change again. Until then, I will remain a 'positive' racist.

Separation without hate or oppression of the other.

Starr: Why is prejudgement based on race something that is automatically wrong or to be avoided, while discrimination based in other areas or other characteristics is somehow more reasoned or OK?

Pre-judgement imples judgement prior to experience, observation or study of some state of affairs. That is, basing one's judgement on the judgement of others without personal investigation. Having observed the behavior of non-whites in America for 60 years, I have made the post-judgement that they are as a group a menace to white Americans. Attempting to make judgements on an individual basis for all 100 million non-whites is beyond anyone's capacity. Awareness of the probablities involved must guide us in our judgements if we are not to become paralyzed in the face of danger. When confronted by a lion, it would be foolish to take the time to determine if he might be one of the nice lions that wont kill you. Run.

And discrimination is not judgement though the two terms are often confused for each other. Discrimination refers simply to the noticing of a distinction between two objects or events. Judgement refers to acting differentially on the basis of that distinction. Noticing that the light is red or green is discrimination. Stopping or proceeding is a judgement.

[Starr]

For the first misguided half of my 60 years I was an all-too-typical liberal who believed in the equality of races and the fiction of some universal humanity. Experience and study taught me to reconsider my position. I changed. If and when further experience and study convince me that that change was an error, I will change again. Until then, I will remain a 'positive' racist.

It is always interesting to hear of someone who had completely different views at one time. Was the notion of racial equality, for example, difficult to reject, even with experience and facts at hand?

Edit: I am pretty sure I remember you talking about being a teacher, certainly this probably helped in helping to show you how things really are.

I never really went through any kind of process like this. Growing up, I had not read anything on the topic of racial differences or antything like that, but I always did have the general feeling, because of behavioral patterns I took note of,etc. that the races were different. I always also felt a bit uncomfortable, especially around blacks. The closest I suppose I ever came to any kind of anti racist views was merely not wanting to think and believe as I did, since the message, of course, was always that this was so terribly wrong. This is something that is probably true of many.

[Burrhus]

It is always interesting to hear of someone who had completely different views at one time. Was the notion of racial equality, for example, difficult to reject, even with experience and facts at hand?

Edit: I am pretty sure I remember you talking about being a teacher, certainly this probably helped in helping to show you how things really are.

Yes, rejecting the notion of racial equality was difficult to accept. I grew up in the pre-'civil rights' era. In 1965 I was 18. I lived in Chicago which was very segregated. I was just telling my daughter the other day that I do not remember EVER seeing a black person in my neighborhood who was not there for some legitimate purpose such as a mailman, bus driver or truck delivery. Even that was not common. There were no blacks in my grammar school and two in my private, catholic high-school.

Having had no contact with black people, I had no reason to believe that they were any different than whites. My father is a die-hard liberal believer in integration/'civil-rights' (and lives in a nearly all-white suburb now. Hmm?). So I was taught to believe in the liberal party-line.

Ten years later, the city had begun to 'enjoy' the dubious benefits of the 1960's legislation. White neighborhoods had been invaded and the whites were in flight. I had been driving a cab since 1968 and had had little trouble in black neighborhoods. But by the mid-70s that began to change. I was still an anti-racist but I was becoming the target of serious black violence in black areas--rocks and bottles, a hammer, bullet off the windshield, a gang of 20 black 'youths' pounding on my cab yelling "get out our hood, honky"..

I was puzzled. I began to feel myself developing racial animosity which conflicted with my youthful indoctrination and 30 year position of believing in racial equality. After struggling with these thoughts for some time I came to realize that they were not the results of prejudice or learned hatred but the products of my expanded experience with blacks and their escalating hatred, hostility and violence towards white people. Damn, I was white. I didn't hate them but they hated me.

A few years later I got a degree in mathematics and worked in eduaction at a university and then a high-school. Having been out of cab driving for some years my racism had subsided some. I still realized that blacks were a problem but at both places I had black bosses. Not pleasant.

The students in the high-school were what finally convinced me that separation was the only rational option. They were barbaric, violent and totally incorrigible. And incapable of learning. Try teaching the quadratic formula to a black, to say nothing of trigonometry. When I taught calculus I had 40 students...one token black. He understood nothing; nothing at all. When he showed up he slept in class.

I was often threatened by black boys with violence. My response was invariably an invitation to step outside. I would inform the thug that in 5 minutes one of us would be dead and I wasn't afraid for it to be me. I would tell him that if he survived, he would spend 10 years in jail as some bigger nigger's butt-buddy. They always backed down after telling me that I was crazy. Damn right I'm crazy, BOY, so don't fuck with me.

I am living testimony to the fact that racism is not prejudice or learned-in-the-family hatred. My change to racism was based solely on years of experience with black people. I even tried to resist believing what I was seeing happen. I couldn't. I still don't hate blacks but I don't want to live near them either.

The most recent straw on this camel's back came two years ago. My daughter was still living in the city in a very good neighborhood. I could visit her and my two beautiful, intelligent white grandchildren fairly easily. Then the local school became over-run with mostly mexicans and some blacks being bussed in. My daughter had to move to a suburb 35 miles away, a long, difficult trip as I don't have a car. Even with a car, it's a long trip. I don't see my grandchildren as often as I would like. Yes, I am pissed.

Positive racism: Separation without hatred or oppression of the other. Love of one's own.