Jesus Never Existed

[Fade the Butcher]

. . . or so goes the theme of a new movie, The God Who Wasn't There (http://www.thegodmovie.com/). Your thoughts? Was Jesus a real historical figure or a legend concocted out of the imagination of religious zealots? Play the trailer.

[Slavic Enforcer]

Jesus did exist.

[Felix the Cat]

Which Jesus existed?

[Slavic Enforcer]

Which Jesus existed?

Christ.

David Koresh did also exist, by the way.

[Fade the Butcher]

Is there any proof that Jesus existed?

[infoterror]

Was Jesus a real historical figure or a legend concocted out of the imagination of religious zealots?

http://www.datejesus.com/

[Banat]

Is there any proof that Jesus existed?

What other proof for the existence of an anonymous carpenter 2,000 years ago is needed beside the fact that the Church built on him, not only survived the most severe persecutions in its early history, but lasts until now?

If we take Plato's testimony that Socrates existed as valid, I think it is appropriate to consider testimonies of the Apostles as valid, too.

Or, to cut the unnecessarily long story short: No, but we conclude and believe that he did.

[Vindex]

While I understand jewbus is fiction, the reality is even if he had existed that still does not make him "divine" or "holy" and does not magically make his insane preachings and posion doctine of the bibble, the opposite of just that.

It seems a strange box has developed in which if you say jewbus is a fiction, then you can "offically" speak that the doctine of jewbus is insane. But if you say well jewbus might have really lived, then the followers of jewbus take that as a confession of the validness of jewbus claim to divine son of god, came back from the dead and floated up to heaven, messiah man, story as being real. Such is the mental pooprint of the wacky chrishitain,creeping creature.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

What more evidence do we need? :p

http://www.rejesus.co.uk/expressions/faces_jesus/facesj_media/b_shroud.jpg

[Banat]

While I understand Jesus is fiction, the reality is even if he had existed that still does not make him "divine" or "holy"

True. His nature does.

But if you say well Jesus might have really lived, then the followers of Jesus take that as a confession of the validness of Jesus claim to divine Son of God, came back from the dead and floated up to heaven.

No, it's not at all deducted that way, it's the other way. If he has resurrected from death, has risen to Heaven and is about to come again, it is presupposed he had to be born and exist prior to that. Again your prejudices about Christianity don't match the true situation. :nono:

[Petr]

Is there any proof that Jesus existed?
LOTS of it, even if not counting the Gospels (and only anti-Biblical bigotry would compel one to do so).

All "Christ-mythers" should enjoy the same social respect that UFO-nuts do. Cynical a-holes like to make money and nurture their own obsessions by resurrecting this tiresome nonsense every now and then, and as usual, the lie can get around the world before the truth can get its boots on.

See a thorough treatment of the subject in here:

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html


We conclude that we find three levels of source material:

Highly reliable sources. There are two of these: Tacitus and Josephus.

Moderately reliable sources. We find three: Thallus, Pliny, and Lucian. For the matter of Thallus, please see also our link in our essay to Glenn Miller's essay on that subject, linked in our essay. (We will look at some objections to the Thallus cite.)

Marginally reliable or unreliable sources. Three are in this class: Suetonius, the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud.



Petr

[daisy]

yes Jesus is real. it is still going to be quite a long time before God comes back. there is much work that has to be completed first before his return.
sometimes it does seem like it takes forever

[Watzy]

Early Historical Documents on Jesus Christ
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

The Historicity of Jesus Christ
http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/historicityJesus.htm

Jesus Outside the New Testament
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/sources.html

[Fade the Butcher]

This seems to me like another Michael Moore type film.

[Vindex]

Yes, the question is "IF." As pointed out if a person says yeah he might have lived, but that does not make him what his crackpot ass claimed to be, the messiah, true. I know a homeless alley bum, who claims the same bizzare shit jewbus claimed, does that make it true too. He performed a miracle he turned aftershave into whine.

Then the jewbus cult then takes that a confession all the wacky shit in the Neuterd testyment as being real. History claims 16 other nailed to a stick saviours before jewbus, that is alot of saving.

Also you claim my prejudices, prejudices to prejudge, after almost the first 20 years of my life being a chirstian and being around christians, it is based on experience and fact, not a prejudgement.


No, it's not at all deducted that way, it's the other way. If he has resurrected from death, has risen to Heaven and is about to come again, it is presupposed he had to be born and exist prior to that. Again your prejudices about Christianity don't match the true situation. :nono:

[Lenny]

If we take Plato's testimony that Socrates existed as valid, I think it is appropriate to consider testimonies of the Apostles as valid, too.Banat is correct here. It's stupid for someone to say "Jesus of Nazareth did not exist!" and then flail his arms about demanding hard proof that he did in fact exist.

If this is a legitimate argument, then couldn't I just as easily say (e.g.) "King Hammurabi never existed!" while demanding hard proof that he did exist, but discounting written records as fabrications by zealots who created a false character for their own purposes? Or perhaps I could say "Attila the Hun [anima eterna's direct blood ancestor] never existed! Give me hard proof that he did or I am vindicated in saying he was not real". This is just silly :rolleyes:

[Vindex]

Hmmmmm.....was Plato claiming that Socrates was born of a virgin, walked on water and bought rotting corspes back to life, before returning to life again and floating up to heaven, and that he was divine.lol


Banat is correct here. It's stupid for someone to say "Jesus of Nazareth did not exist!" and then flail his arms about demanding hard proof that Jesus did exist in fact exist.

If this is a legitimate argument, then couldn't I just as easily say (e.g.) "King Hammurabi never existed!" while demanding hard proof that he did exist, but discounting written records as fabrications by zealots who created a false character for their own purposes? Or perhaps I could say "Attila the Hun [anima eterna's direct blood ancestor] never existed! Give me hard proof that he did or I am vindicated in saying he was not real". This is just silly :rolleyes:

[infoterror]

This is like arguing against brain-in-a-vat. Jesus is a metaphysical construction at this point. Whether or not some smelly 1/2-yid carpenter ever did exist is beside the point: the allegorical structure "Jewsus" (sp) does.

[albion]

THE OLD TESTAMENT "EVIDENCE"

Let us consider the so-called Biblical evidence first. Despite the claims of Christian apologists, there is absolutely nothing in the Old Testament (OT) that is of relevance to our question, apart from the possible fact that some prophets may have thought that an "anointed one" (a rescuer king or priest) would once again assume the leadership of the Jewish world. All of the many examples of OT "predictions" of Jesus are so silly that one need only look them up to see their irrelevance. Thomas Paine, the great heretic of the American Revolution, did just that, and he demonstrated their irrelevance in his book An Examination of the Prophecies, which he intended to be Part III of The Age of Reason.


THE NEW TESTAMENT "EVIDENCE"

The elimination of the OT leaves only the New Testament (NT) "evidence" and extraBiblical material to be considered. Essentially, the NT is composed of two types of documents: letters and would-be biographies (the so-called Gospels). A third category of writing, apocalyptic, c of which the Book of Revelation is an example, also exists, but it gives no support for the historicity of Jesus. In fact, it would appear to be an intellectual fossil of the thought-world from which Christianity sprang--a Jewish apocalypse that was reworked for Christian use. 8 The main character of the book (referred to 28 times) would seem to be "the Lamb," an astral being seen in visions (no claims to historicity here!), and the book overall is redolent of ancient astrology.

The name Jesus occurs only seven times in the entire book, Christ only four times, and Jesus Christ only twice! While Revelation may very well derive from a very early period (contrary to the views of most Biblical scholars, who deal with the book only in its final form), the Jesus of which it whispers obviously is not a man. He is a supernatural being. He has not yet acquired the physiological and metabolic properties of which we read in the Gospels. The Jesus of Revelation is a god who would later be made into a man--not a man who would later become a god, as liberal religious scholars would have it.

ADDITIONAL SOURCES & RECOMMENDED SITES

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
The Jesus Mysteries (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609807986/qid=1136556889/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0623590-2309727) - Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, 1999
Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle, 1999

G. A. Wells, The Jesus Myth / The Jesus Legend, 1999
Hyam Maccoby, The Mythmaker: Paul & the Invention of Christianity
Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels,1979
Luigi Cascioli, The Fable of Christ, 2001
Acharya S, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, 1999
Arthur Drews, The Christ Myth, 1910
Robert M. Price, Deconstructing Jesus, 2000
Burton L. Mack, Who Wrote the New Testament?

[daisy]

Jesus is immortal like u.s.
i believe Jesus never dies he just gets new bodies like u.s.

[Lord_Lugdreg]

All "Christ-mythers" should enjoy the same social respect that UFO-nuts do.

Speaking of 'Christ-mythers' here is a good link right here:

Behind The Bible Fraud -
What Was The Church Trying To Hide? (http://www.rense.com/general66/hide.htm)

When it comes it UFO-nuts, pretty soon more people will believe in Aliens then in the judeo-christian God in many part of Europe!

Just over half of Britons believe in extra terrestrial life. According to a survey for the popular science magazine Focus, 50.2% of people said alien life must exist in the universe somewhere.

"Belief in alien life is no longer only the preserve of the lunatic fringe," said the magazine's editor, Paul Simpson.

Over Half Of All Britons
Believe In ET (http://www.rense.com/ufo2/britufobelief.htm)

It is highly possible that a man named Jesus did exist.

It doesn't really matter to me though, I am allied with Odin, the one-eyed enemy of the judeo-christian God.

Also I would rather go to hell with my ancestors, then to heaven with the judeo-christians (I heard that heaven is multi-racial also, yuck.)

[Jimbo Gomez]

Do you know why he only has one eye? He got skullf*cked when Scandinavia was christianized and his worship disappeared.

[Banat]

Also I would rather go to hell with my ancestors, then to heaven with the judeo-christians (I heard that heaven is multi-racial also, yuck.)

Well, don't you think that quite many of your ancestors may find themselves exactly in that Christian paradise and do you think that hell would be somehow less "multi-racial" (at least you'd be sharing it with hundreds million of Moslems)? ;)

[Petr]

Well, don't you think that quite many of your ancestors may find themselves exactly in that Christian paradise and do you think that hell would be somehow less "multi-racial" (at least you'd be sharing it with hundreds million of Moslems)? ;)
Good point. :)

And if ending up in prison with hordes of vicious Black gangbangers would seem horrifying to you, think about spending the eternity with fallen angels...


Petr

[albion]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1585090697.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585090697/qid=1136556697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-0623590-2309727?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0609807986.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609807986/qid=1136556889/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0623590-2309727
Freke (a philospher and author of books on spirituality) and Gandy (who is studying classical civilization) believe that first century Jewish mystics adapted the potent symbolism of the Osiris-Dionysus myths into a myth of their own, the hero of which was the Jewish dying and resurrecting godman Jesus. Therefore, the story of Jesus is a consciously crafted vehicle for encoded spiritual teachings created by Jewish Gnostics. We are unaware of this, they claim, because the Roman Catholic Church destroyed evidence of the connection between Christianity and the pagan mysteries. They make their case by offering an examination of mystery religions, especially Greek, pointing out the many parallels between them and what they see as the Gospels! message about Jesus. Freke and Gandy are familiar with a significant amount of recent biblical scholarship, though they rely mostly on Elaine Pagels!s work on the Gnostics.

[Johnson]

I downloaded The God Who Wasn't There. It's amateurish and unconvincing.

[jcs]

I am allied with Odin, the one-eyed enemy of the judeo-christian God.
Yep, that's Odin's purpose: adversary. Odin=Satan. Yep, yep. Great religious views you have there. :rolleyes:
Heathenry has some sensibility. Asatru has probably the best system of ethics found in any religion. Unfortunately, too many heathens are just angsty adolescent Satanists by another name.

Also I would rather go to hell with my ancestors, then to heaven with the judeo-christians
Good job turning a quote from a man who was behaving honorably, siding with kin rather than converting when threatened by Hell, into something devoid of meaning. Heathenry is dead because heathens have become soulless.

[Lord_Lugdreg]

Do you know why he only has one eye? He got skullf*cked when Scandinavia was christianized and his worship disappeared.

It is not like judeo-christianity is doing any better in Scandinavia (or all of Europe).

Faith Fades Where It Once Burned Strong (Freerepublic.com) (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1000399/posts)

Christianity Turns Brown - “Medieval” Christianity is sweeping the Third World. (http://www.amren.com/0210issue/0210issue.html#article2)

LOL! You are going to be in Church next to brown people soon (if not already!)

Yep, that's Odin's purpose: adversary. Odin=Satan. Yep, yep. Great religious views you have there.
Heathenry has some sensibility. Asatru has probably the best system of ethics found in any religion. Unfortunately, too many heathens are just angsty adolescent Satanists by another name.

I am in no way a Satanist (Satan is actually a figure in the judeo-christian Tradition, which I wholly reject as hopelessly semitic and racially egalitarian)

Odin tore out his own eye to get a drink of Mimes wisdom
well, and he did it only to increase his power to get the best for his people. Odin hung himself in the ash tree Yggdrasil, wounded himself with
his own spear only to get the knowledge of the dead, the knowledge from the other side, for all in life he learned himself, but it was not enough, for
Odin would also know all and learn all - to be the best possible ruler, for the people! All Odin did, he did it to get more knowledge and from that more power to get the best for his people! Odin listened to advice from his 12 sons (and from his wise and sharp wife Frigg) but always made the decisions himself!

Odin is the king of all kings, the symbol of how a king should be! The symbol of how a people should be ruled. There is no one larger than Odin!

Vargsmal - by Varg Vikernes (http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/archives/vargs.html)

HAIL ODIN!

[jcs]

I am in no way a Satanist (Satan is actually a figure in the judeo-christian Tradition, which I wholly reject as hopelessly semitic and racially egalitarian)
Yes you are; you missed my point. Learn to read contextually.

[Kodos]

Is there any proof that Jesus existed?

The only independent confirmation would seem to be a brief passage by Tactitus( unfavourable to the christians) which says such a figure was crucified during the reign of Tiberius.

[Kodos]

LOTS of it, even if not counting the Gospels (and only anti-Biblical bigotry would compel one to do so).

All "Christ-mythers" should enjoy the same social respect that UFO-nuts do. Cynical a-holes like to make money and nurture their own obsessions by resurrecting this tiresome nonsense every now and then, and as usual, the lie can get around the world before the truth can get its boots on.

See a thorough treatment of the subject in here:

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html


We conclude that we find three levels of source material:

Highly reliable sources. There are two of these: Tacitus and Josephus.

Moderately reliable sources. We find three: Thallus, Pliny, and Lucian. For the matter of Thallus, please see also our link in our essay to Glenn Miller's essay on that subject, linked in our essay. (We will look at some objections to the Thallus cite.)

Marginally reliable or unreliable sources. Three are in this class: Suetonius, the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud.



Petr

Can you give me a link to Josephsus stuff on him Petr? Im aware of Tactitus' reference to him.

[Petr]

Can you give me a link to Josephsus stuff on him Petr? Im aware of Tactitus' reference to him.
Var så god, as the Swedes say:


Josephus: A Double Dose of the Messiah

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/josephus.html


Petr