Forum Content (Shoutbox Discussion Continued)

[Fade the Butcher]

Some thoughts on positive freedom versus negative freedom . . .

"I agree. It is unfortunate that liberty (a virtue) is equated with license (a vice) in our society. This ancient Aristotelian distinction has almost entirely eroded in America due to the influence of modern liberalism. Liberty used to be seen as a acquired state that was realized only through rigorous discipline and practice of the virtues. Censorship was thus integral to the cultivation of liberty (which is why laws used to be passed to prohibit vicious behavior). Liberty is now confused with the mere absence of restraint."

"Censorship can be used for destructive purposes (for instance, to stiffle creativity), but it can also be used to achieve constructive ends. This is where morality comes into play. Censorship is rarely necessary when men and women are of sound character, but indispensible when this is not the case. You have had plenty of experience with trolls, no?"

[OVERWATCH]

Even I, a notoriously lowbrow, backslapping pursuer of extreme frivolity will agree that censorship in the context of a forum is not bad, indeed it is necessary.

What must be kept in mind however is that everyone who posts on the internut cannot be legitimately divided into just two(2) groups, i.e., quality and refuse. It's just not that simple.

Besides there are other options than simply banning people.

[jcs]

"I agree. It is unfortunate that liberty (a virtue) is equated with license (a vice) in our society. This ancient Aristotelian distinction has almost entirely eroded in America due to the influence of modern liberalism. Liberty used to be seen as a acquired state that was realized only through rigorous discipline and practice of the virtues. Censorship was thus integral to the cultivation of liberty (which is why laws used to be passed to prohibit vicious behavior). Liberty is now confused with the mere absence of restraint."
Freedom/liberty only has a personal, esoteric meaning. Rigorous discipline and practice of virtue leads to a liberation from all restraints one places on oneself and grants one the freedom to be oneself.
When virtues become ideals, when freedom is politicized, it has already begun to lose meaning. What is freedom but a lack of restraint? Even if gained, all that is gained is the liberation from the chains of bondage. In all but an eXoteric sense, those chains exist fairly literally, and they at least signify external restriction.
The problem with the modern political conception of freedom, as opposed to older ideas about liberty and such, is that (as you pointed out) we think we have some license to freedom, some sort of entitlement.
Of course, no one is willing to work for their freedom if it can be had for free, and no one wants to prove himself to others on a forum before he can have his liberty.

"Censorship can be used for destructive purposes (for instance, to stiffle creativity), but it can also be used to achieve constructive ends. This is where morality comes into play. Censorship is rarely necessary when men and women are of sound character, but indispensible when this is not the case. You have had plenty of experience with trolls, no?"
"ANUS Forums
Anarchic mayhem and conversation. Eugenic posting policy."
(ANUS lacked direction, but they're working on that.) The moderation has always been pretty good, though, with poor posts being thrown in the 'compost' (a good idea, allowing deleted threads that might have had intelligent comments to remain in viewing, and it removed all such threads from the post-able area, so as to not infect, perhaps). prozak, in a recent post on the metal forum, said that his basic theory of forum-moderation is to rid the forum of useless posts and post productive threads himself. Moderation should not focus on censorship.

The best course of action for a forum is to have a course of action. Conversation can remain open and free so long as freedom is not explicitly stated (encouraged), as doing so gives people a sense of entitlement, a license to freedom. Nazi.org has one of the better politically-oriented fora, as their platform is diverse enough to encourage discussion on a number of issues (though mostly race, unfortunately), and they have direction. I'm not sure a direction based along political/ideological grounds is the best thing, though. Diversity of ideologies is a strength here, as inter-ideological discussion keeps a forum lively.

[jcs]

Want to get rid of 70% of (my) stupidity on this forum? Get rid of reputation scores and the 'top posters' list. Most of the reputation I receive is to spread rep before giving more negative rep to lenny, or in response to something dumb I said, while posts of mine I consider more intelligent only rarely receive any reputation. So it would seem that the reputation system encourages appeals to people's ideological sympathies more than good posting. The top posters list encourages short, waste-of-time posts. It's a game that spammers win and the forum loses.

[Fade the Butcher]

Even I, a notoriously lowbrow, backslapping pursuer of extreme frivolity will agree that censorship in the context of a forum is not bad, indeed it is necessary.Censorship can be used to achieve positive and negative ends. The point I was trying to make in that discussion is that censorship should not be rejected wholesale on the grounds of free speech. This issue isn't in dispute here. Everyone recognizes that some degree of censorship is essential to the operation of the forum.What must be kept in mind however is that everyone who posts on the internut cannot be legitimately divided into just two(2) groups, i.e., quality and refuse. It's just not that simple.I totally agree. I myself have such conflicting tendencies. Sometimes I don't feel like making or reading long posts.Besides there are other options than simply banning people.Yes. We have moderators for a reason. As for banning, I think it has to be done in reference to some overarching objective that can serve as the basic organizing principle of the forum.

[OVERWATCH]

True, my apologies if I misread you. We appear to be on the same page here.

[Starr]

Short posts, even one liners are fine and are not always useless unless they are way off topic, especially if they are of the type that is going to get responses and further deviate from the topic. Which is a problem from time to time, of which I am guilty just like everyone else.

As much as I don't want to say it since I currently have one of the highest rep scores,:p I would agree about the reputation system. Too further add to that, you can pretty much figure that people are also going to give good and bad rep according to such stupid things as who gives what to them, and who they may or may not "like." Hence someone like Lenny whose posts are not of a bad quality.

[jcs]

Short posts, even one liners are fine and are not always useless unless they are way off topic, especially if they are of the type that is going to get responses and further deviate from the topic.
This is a good thing in my book. Topic-life is short, but if a new discussion can be generated through deviation from the original topic, that should be encouraged. Solution: more thread-splitting.

[Starr]

I would agree, but this must be done:

Solution: more thread-splitting.

[Fade the Butcher]

Freedom/liberty only has a personal, esoteric meaning.Freedom is the state of being in full possession of your faculties; actualizing what is potential within you. Discipline is thus essential to achieve freedom, as man is born both servile and vicious. A truly free man doesn't have to be disciplined. He naturally enjoys doing good works.Rigorous discipline and practice of virtue leads to a liberation from all restraints one places on oneself and grants one the freedom to be oneself.Yes. Restraint isn't necessarily inimical to freedom, although it certainly can be. Some form of discipline is indispensible if one ever hopes to ascend to such an elevated state. This is why those who claim a conflict exists between freedom and censorship are in error.When virtues become ideals, when freedom is politicized, it has already begun to lose meaning. What is freedom but a lack of restraint? Even if gained, all that is gained is the liberation from the chains of bondage. In all but an esoteric sense, those chains exist fairly literally, and they at least signify external restriction.Virtues are not ends in themselves. They are cultivated dispositions (i.e., means) that enable one to achieve his ends. In this sense, virtues are not even secondary goods like freedom. One practices the virtues to achieve freedom and one seeks freedom to achieve happiness. Freedom in the sense it is used today really isn't freedom at all. It is an absence of character, organization, discipline, and restraint (an accurate description of the servile condition). Maybe freedom has been redefined in this way in order to facilitate domination. If my object was to dominate others in order to achieve resource extraction, then I would desire my subjects to be a disorganized mass of selfish individualists pursuing separate and conflicting ends. It is easy to snap one twig; much harder to snap a bundle.The problem with the modern political conception of freedom, as opposed to older ideas about liberty and such, is that (as you pointed out) we think we have some license to freedom, some sort of entitlement.Yes. Liberals err in their belief that freedom is a natural condition. The individual then leaves behind this primordial freedom to join a contract society. This is the source of the so-called natural rights men and women are said to possess. Liberal political theory doesn't acknowledge that freedom is an acquired disposition; that the natural condition of man is servility to others. In modern liberal societies, the masses are servile to the dictates of capital under an illusion of representation (materialism being the basic organizing principle of such societies).Of course, no one is willing to work for their freedom if it can be had for free, and no one wants to prove himself to others on a forum before he can have his liberty.The common man would like to believe that he is naturally free and that his rights are guaranteed by some charter; that power can magically be subordinated to a piece of paper. He would much prefer to sit and loaf than to expend his energies attempting to realize something he already takes for granted.The best course of action for a forum is to have a course of action.A telos (or point, purpose, function, end, goal etc.)Conversation can remain open and free so long as freedom is not explicitly stated (encouraged), as doing so gives people a sense of entitlement, a license to freedom.As I mentioned in the Shoutbox, I have become reluctant to use the word freedom specifically, as it has taken on an entirely different meaning for most people.Nazi.org has one of the better politically-oriented fora, as their platform is diverse enough to encourage discussion on a number of issues (though mostly race, unfortunately), and they have direction.Do they have any difficulty reconciling that with nihilism?I'm not sure a direction based along political/ideological grounds is the best thing, though. Diversity of ideologies is a strength here, as inter-ideological discussion keeps a forum lively.I agree.

[Petr]

Want to get rid of 70% of (my) stupidity on this forum? Get rid of reputation scores and the 'top posters' list.
I can say that I have never, that is never paid any attention to such vain popularity contests. I have never given any rep to anyone.


Petr

[Fade the Butcher]

I have the reputation system turned off.

[OVERWATCH]

I don't know of anyone who really cares about their reputation score and post count, except one who will remain unnamed *coughStancough*

[Starr]

I can say that I have never, that is never paid any attention to such vain popularity contests. I have never given any rep to anyone.


Petr


I never give bad rep. If I don't like or disagree with something someone says I would just post a reply and tell them. I don't even barely ever give positive rep either. I do like to look at my own once in a while to see who gave me what,etc. It is stupid I suppose, but I like seeing that someone liked one of my posts or agreed with something I said.

[Banat]

I have the reputation system turned off.

You probably got bored with it during all these years. IMO, rep system adds to the fun part, and is nothing more than that. Same as with JCS, 80% of my rep received (as I presume is with everyone) was for one-lined "witty" remarks, or some comments given en passant, but again, majority of my points spread go for similar content.

Funny thing, I never viewed it as some popularity contest.

I can say that I have never, that is never paid any attention to such vain popularity contests. I have never given any rep to anyone.

But you still receive them. And as it goes for particularly you, I'd guess it's for the good quality of your posts, and not for some popularity reasons. Frankly, I think I can't remember any post of yours posted in Lowbrow forums.

And, yes, censorship in the Highbrow forums is not only needed, but required. They may get loose a bit from time to time, but high standards must be respected.

[Felix the Cat]

Those green lozenges are pretty pointless anyway. Nearly everybody has 3 or 4, making the distinction meaningless

If we really care about rep, the exact number of rep points should be displayed

[infoterror]

Rep points reminds me of Slashdot: democracy (popularity) over content.

How leftist

[Billy Score]

I value rep points more than life and determine my self worth by how many i have.

[Starr]

I value rep points more than life and determine my self worth by how many i have.


Me too. If by the time I wake up tomorrow I do not see some positive rep, I might just have to end what is left of my crumbling life.:( :( :(

When I see negative rep I turn to the bottle for comfort.

[Billy Score]

wow just as i say that someone gives me a NEUTRAL rep point. What is worse then a negative rep point is a neutral because it gives me expectation(i see new comments etc) but then i look at the point and my heart sinks as i see that it is a gray blob. If i find out who committed this injustice i assure you that not only will your reputation collapse, but i will try to have other aspects of your life fail as well.

[Felix the Cat]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mazdak again."

[Ambrosio Spinola]

I would personally turn it off as it really means nothing special.

[Fade the Butcher]

The reputation system is a new feature. I think it was set to off on my account by default.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Most of the reputation I receive is to spread rep before giving more negative rep to lenny,

Hehehe, same here. :D

*example of a high quality oneliner post*

[Jimbo Gomez]

Rep on its own isn't bad, but I noticed the rep power of people is just way too high. If one sign of appreciation adds 15 points and rep soars as it does now) it tends to become a goal on its own. I have one of the highest repcounts, I know how it works. Someone gives you good rep and you give it back. Perhaps making it so that you can only give rep twice per day, and lowering the reppower of people so that it will all level together somewhat would be cool.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

As it is now its only a good ol´boy club where buddies exchange rep points and help themselves grow. It just means nothing much. I guess this will further degrade to the Skadi style medals and other honorific self onanism.

[Banat]

I agree with Charles Martel. In fact I wanted to say absolutely the same yesterday. When it was one point by one, it meant more (with only objection that reputation power of the administrators was too much higher than the one of the regular posters (10)). It took one ages to collect 20 points, and with this pace when one can make a hundred in only a couple of days, we'll all have 9-10 dots in a few months, which would look a bit tasteless.

And what's the matter with everyone all of a sudden and why has FlaK turned his reputation system off? :confused: Has this turned into a competition in who cares about his reputation less? Reputation system is a good feature, it only needs to be put a little more under control. It is useful and it's a way to express agreement or disagreement without entering a discussion, plus it's more personal.

Come on, men, the forum needs to be a bit loose, that's not a bad thing. If we're going to pay so much attention to the seriousness of the place, not only 'top poster' list and the reputation system should be removed (the 'shittbox' in the first place), but also all the lowbrow forums, and the smilies too, which are almost never used in serious debates. And avatars and many of the signatures too. But then, why not switching to phpBB, or turning to news-groups? Or leaving message board discussions as an unproductive waste of time and turning to more useful things in life?

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Perun..that last paragraph you made, why dont you just erase that huge straw man? You want some medals too? The rep system is flawed and does not represent any standing but more his social life. People even use the rep system as quick PMs. Look at Lenny and his rep..its a joke how he could get there in under a month. Well...whatever...

[jcs]

Suggested program for rep: turn rep-power off, get rid of rep scores, allow people to spread unlimited amounts of rep/day. This way, rep would be used more as a system to say, "I agree," without disrupting the discussion with a useless 'I agree' post.

[Felix the Cat]

Related point: too many people are giving rep, and not enough are rating threads

[Banat]

Perun..that last paragraph you made, why dont you just erase that huge straw man? You want some medals too? The rep system is flawed and does not represent any standing but more his social life. People even use the rep system as quick PMs. Look at Lenny and his rep..its a joke how he could get there in under a month. Well...whatever...

If you were referring to me, Ebus - I don't get it. It seems now that I was trying to prove that it had a higher meaning or some special importance, while I actually see your point, so I don't know whence the arguing tone. Plus, I agree on both Skadi issue and Lenny example (which isn't without its humor, although I never participated in it).

I only objected to the "who can care about rep system less" wave that has started, imposing that those who use it tend to give it an exceptional meaning, or think of themselves higher, which isn't necessarrilly correct. In fact, I care about it so little that I am not even going to bother to turn it off to show it, but will spread & recieve it in the same way I did until now, which was, in my case, not for PM's or rep exchange (with 2-3 exceptions in this so far), but for posts' quality, wits, or at least the level of my agreement.

[jcs]

some sort of limit on the length of shouts would be a good idea, as I sort of fucked the shoutbox up with an extremely long piece of spam (sorry).

[zenero]

Thanks alot, jcs. Fucking sociopath.

I ask the Admins to ban jcs temporarily, 'cos i have hard a time logging in thanks to Mr. Michigan over here.

[jcs]

I tried editing my shout in the archives. apparently that can't be done. all that's necessary is that some moderator edit it.

[zenero]

Yet again, i ask for the banning of jcs (*The anti-american fucko*)

Whoever agrees, can say: Yes for banning this piece of Canadian immigrant shit who lives in the fine state of Michigan and collects welfare.

Or just say No and simply rot in hell for supporting this anti-American heretic!


I tried editing my shout in the archives. apparently that can't be done. all that's necessary is that some moderator edit it.Thou shall be banned on the penalty of death !!!

[jcs]

I vote 'no.' :p

[Felix the Cat]

Guys until it's fixed, switch off the shoutbox or we're gonna lose the whole server

(The little chevron button by the side)

[zenero]

I vote 'no.' :pYour vote is not countable.

Where the Phora are the do-nothing-contributors, watch em all slither off, jcs-a-likes!

[jcs]

Guys until it's fixed, switch off the shoutbox or we're gonna lose the whole server

(The little chevron button by the side)
Wouldn't it be possible to spam the shoutbox with one-line shouts until that's off the page? Only nine or so to go.

[zenero]

Guys until it's fixed, switch off the shoutbox or we're gonna lose the whole server

(The little chevron button by the side)Okay done......... Wait a 'minute.:nono:

This is your plan isnt it? You always hated the shoutbox!

Evidence: Cowcube:This was happening last night as well. It's shoutbox related I think

Remember that each new shout has to be simultaneously transmitted to all online users, even unregistered ones. Such a process is bound to choke the server when you have 20+ people online That is a lie! - zenero

At the very least, the box should be disabled for unregistered users

You sick man! You, you sick Limey. Using poor little jcs to sabotage the Forum, and so you can blame it on the ShoutBox! You've just been exposed!

http://members.lycos.co.uk/Gremlin/images/minibug3.gif
Cowcube and his diabolical plans of hijacking the Phora!

[Felix the Cat]

Take it to EFnet

Or contribute some $$$ so the admin can buy a fatter pipe

As it is, the Shoutbox is degrading the server and driving away potential members

[jcs]

Shoutbox fixed. Just don't go in the archives to view the shout from 7:36 (GMT -5 ) Jan. 4, 2006.
(for reference to the brave moderator who wants to slay that dragon)

[Billy Score]

i don't see anything wrong with a spoils system regarding rep points. You help me, i help you, everyone wins.

[jcs]

i don't see anything wrong with a spoils system regarding rep points. You help me, i help you, everyone wins.
Pointless ego drama and mutual backscratching, byproducts of the reputation system, detract from the forum content, or at least from time spent posting meaningfully.

[Helios Panoptes]

I somehow doubt that the reputation system is so influential as to cause posters to alter what would be their posting habits independent of it, for the sake of accumulating more points. I also don't think that it saps a lot of time that users would otherwise spend browsing and posting on the forum. The shoutbox is responsible for that.

[Cyber Hostility]

Take it to EFnet

Or contribute some $$$ so the admin can buy a fatter pipe

As it is, the Shoutbox is degrading the server and driving away potential members

The shoutbox? That sucks, I really liked that thing...