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Fade the Butcher
01-11-2006, 01:39 PM
:: But even this "nothing" that someone has accomplished, is a lot better to take pride in than something that he didn't even do. Like, being born of a certain race - I mean, it's just stupid to think that you have any worth just because of your race. Your actions count for something, your race doesn't.

We should take pride in our own accomplishments and actions, right? This is ridiculous. The individual accomplishes practically nothing on his own. His own thoughts are rarely even his. Isolate a man in the wilderness of Siberia without any previous human contact and you reduce him to a savage. He cannot even reproduce himself. We could consider him lucky if he managed to survive.

We make progress by interacting with others and by participating in traditions and practices established by our ancestors; that we did not create as 'individuals'. We don't know the names of many of the architects who built the Gothic cathedrals of Western Europe. There is a reason for this. That was a sustained effort that took the work of many generations. To possess such a cathedral was a source of pride for each little community and the construction of them was a collective goal and accomplishment. Each individual helped contribute in his own way: working in the stone quarries, donating money, walking up off the street to assist in on site construction, cooking meals for the workers, making stained glass and so on.

Such awesome and beautiful structures exist today because medieval Europeans thought more about enriching their communities than wrapping themselves up in unwarranted individual arrogance and narcissism. The Gothic cathedrals were meant to be held in reverence by future generations. Your community wasn't something you chose. It was something you were born into. It was a project all generations (past, present, and future) participated in and contributed to.

Don't take pride in who you are. Take pride in what you 'choose' to do. This is the ethos of the Walmart shopper and the fast food menu; the ideology of the consumer. I would like to believe we are more than that.

daisy
01-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Such awesome and beautiful structures exist today because medieval Europeans thought more about enriching their communities than wrapping themselves up in unwarranted individual arrogance and narcissism.
true how generous of them. that kind generousity is not often seen in these end days or last days

Fade the Butcher
01-11-2006, 04:38 PM
Are you saying that the ingenuity of the architects of the Gothic cathedrals had something to do with their race?No. Medieval Europeans did not build Gothic catherdrals because they were white (if that is what you are asking me). This is not to say that the construction of such magnificent buildings did not require a high degree intelligence and resourcefulness. They obviously did. I don't think many reasonable people would dispute that either.If what you said can be taken as a rationalization of having pride in where you come from then many would likely find that to be more agreeable. The point in dispute here is whether we can legitimately take pride in accomplishments that are not our own. I say that we can. Some would disagree. I used the example of medieval Gothic cathedrals to make my point. The people who built them wanted future generations to take pride in the accomplishment and would find the liberal individualist mentality foreign and disconcerting. The cathedrals were built by those generations to enrich their communities. The community was regarded as a timeless association that included all members.The question is why should race which merely describes your exterior physical features be attached to heritage?Because your ancestry is the most intimate part of that heritage.Why should the catherals of Chartres or Cologne inspire me any more than those?The people who built the Gothic cathedrals would respond to their descendents: This was our contribution to our tradition. What is yours? I would imagine that the people who built Macchu Picchu and Ankor Wat would respond to their descendents in roughly the same fashion. Such great works of architecture were not built by premodern generations for modern cosmopolitan liberals to consume their aesthetic splendor. This sort of arrogant mentality would have been taken as an insult.

I think it also says a lot about why modern liberal societies are so culturally sterile. These people think mostly in terms of rights and choices. The former and the latter are evalutated positively because they facilitate individual consumption (of experiences and material goods) which is taken to be the self-evident telos of life. This is an entirely different worldview than partaking in and contributing to a timeless tradition that unites all generations.

infoterror
01-12-2006, 03:03 AM
Modernity = individualistic materialism. Why build a great castle when that requires sacrifice? Surely There is Something On TV. Or bong rips. Maybe a quick trip to the public bathroom they keep unlocked after dark? Oh, yes, life ith thweet.

Starr
01-12-2006, 04:04 AM
:: But even this "nothing" that someone has accomplished, is a lot better to take pride in than something that he didn't even do. Like, being born of a certain race - I mean, it's just stupid to think that you have any worth just because of your race. Your actions count for something, your race doesn't.

It should say a lot that the only people this argument is ever used against, are the people who have the most to be proud of, white people. Non whites are openly encouraged to take pride in the collective achievments of their people.

Not only would someone never use this argument with non-whites, they would be called racist and insensitive for doing so.

If you are white and have pride in your race, you are a racist. And if you are white and tell blacks, for example, that they should also not take pride in their race, you are also a racist. How retarded is this?