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Niccolo and Donkey
10-06-2007, 10:35 PM
Irish Civil War veteran dies at 105 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7026951.stm)

BBC


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44154000/jpg/_44154949_keating203.jpg

The last surviving IRA veteran of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War has died at the age of 105.

Dan Keating died peacefully near his home in County Kerry. Diarmaid Fleming looks back on his life.

Meeting the dapper Dan Keating, it could be difficult to reconcile the immaculately dressed man with his revolutionary past.

Looking probably more like a fit 75-year-old rather than a man of 105 years of age, unless you knew his background, it could be hard to imagine the gentlemanly Dan as the last link to the revolutionary violence which gave birth to the modern Irish nation.

But once the pleasantries of tea and brief discourse over the weather or Kerry's latest football victory were over, when visiting him at his home in Castlemaine near where he was born, the subject of politics was never far away.

Eighty six years after the Irish War of Independence, while the mainstream republican movement had embraced compromise through power-sharing with unionists in Stormont, Dan Keating's views had changed little from the days he fought British forces in the hills and towns of Kerry.

In a BBC interview in March, he said that a united Ireland remained his political goal: "You'll have no peace in Ireland until the people of the 32 counties of Ireland elect a government without interference from England."

Dan Keating was born in 1902 on a small farm near in Castlemaine in County Kerry, the eldest of seven.

His uncles were militants involved in attacks on English landlords' agents during land disputes in the 19th century.

But he said that in his early youth, Kerry was peaceful until the 1916 Easter Rising.

Relations with the large British military garrison in Tralee were good, where a soldier from Lancashire who enjoyed music was welcomed to sing in the local pubs.

When one of Dan's own cousins who was in the British Army overstayed his home leave, two uncles were arrested after beating up a visiting military policeman inquiring as to his whereabouts.

But the injured soldier refused to give evidence against the two Kerrymen, saving them from certain jail and earning the respect of locals.

"He didn't want any trouble," said Dan.

The execution of the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising rapidly changed the atmosphere to one of hatred and war, he said.

Working in a bar in Tralee, he joined the IRA youth wing, acting as an intelligence agent, and helping move weapons.

He said it was a fervour of revolt and youthful excitement rather than political motivation which got him involved.

"We were mad for it. It was the thing to do at the time. There was a wave and you got caught up with it. All the people you knew were involved," he said.

He graduated to the IRA on turning 18, and took part in ambushes in which men from both his own and the British side died.

He set up one ambush where several policemen were killed near his home, but would not be drawn on whether he himself had killed, saying he did not know in the fog of war.

"When you are involved in an ambush with a crowd of men, you wouldn't know who killed who.

"But the prospect never troubled me. You were fighting for a just cause and once you have that in the forefront, it never troubled you," he added.

He said it was a war to the death for both sides.

"You had to wipe the enemy off the face of the earth, that was your job to do."

A truce with the British ended the War of Independence in 1921, but the treaty led to the partition of Ireland.

The IRA fought on, with Dan on the losing side in the bitter Civil War against the Free State Army which followed immediately.

He was to serve the first of several stretches in prison, interned in the Curragh Camp.

While many IRA men left Ireland for good, unable to gain work in a land run by their civil war enemies, Dan stayed and got steady work as a barman.

He remained active in the IRA in Kerry, and was part of an IRA squad which attempted to assassinate the Irish fascist leader Eoin O'Duffy on his way to a rally in Tralee in 1933.

A disastrous plan by the IRA to cause sabotage in England during World War II - the S-Plan - brought Dan to England where he led the IRA in London, taking part in bombings of commercial premises and power-stations by night, while he worked as a barman in The Strand in London by day.

Prison

When detectives came knocking on his door, he told him the Dan Keating they were looking for had already left on a passing bus, and made it back to Ireland after giving them the slip.

But more jail awaited on his return, with a second stretch in the Curragh internment camp.

He left the IRA on his release, he said after a clear-out of the "old guard", and settled down with a new wife who was a regular visitor to him in prison - and who with no hint of irony he said was even more militant than himself.

He continued to fundraise and help republican causes, even storing weapons in his house despite an unsuspecting near neighbour being a senior policeman.

Working in the Comet Bar in Dublin's northside, he was an active trade unionist in the bar worker's union.

A non-drinker until his 50s, he took his first drink after a row with the teetotal Pioneer Total Abstinence Association whose pin he had sported as a lifelong member.

At a consultation meeting called by the government to relax pub opening hours, Dan was shocked when the teetotal organisation backed plans to lengthen pub opening hours in opposition to the barworkers' union.

His response was typically militant.

"I took the pin off and fired it at them. I walked out of the meeting with the union leader Walter Byrne, and both of us had a glass of sherry," he said.

He retired back to Castlemaine after his wife died in the the late 1970s, but continued to visit Dublin for big gaelic football and hurling matches, attending over 150 All-Ireland finals in his lifetime, most likely a record.

Walking several miles a day until just weeks before his death, he attributed his long life to moderation, never smoking, a good diet and lack of stress.

And his secret for living to 105?

"I always kept going and never worried about things. People should live their life and not worry about things, and if they have any favourite pastimes, they should keep at them," he said.

Independent and fit, he travelled on his own by bus on a two-hour journey to Cork to the premiere of Ken Loach's film, the Wind that Shakes the Barley in 2006, meeting the British director afterwards to voice his approval in declaring the film as an accurate portrayal of the fighting he was involved in himself.

While he only drank an occasional Benedictine brandy, and detested swearing, his recommendation of moderation did not apply to politics.

He remained an unreconstructed militant, left Sinn Fein in 1986 when it voted to end its ban on taking seats in the Irish parliament, and became a patron of the breakaway Republican Sinn Fein.

Irish President

He said he refused to meet Irish President Mary McAleese to receive a cheque on his 100th birthday because of her declaration of a desire to invite the Queen to Ireland during her term of office, and attacked the Sinn Fein leadership for entering into power-sharing in Stormont this year.

Shortly before his death, he said he did not mind that his views were in the minority.

"We are passing through a phase, the youth of Ireland - all they want is a pay packet and a good time," he said.

"I don't mind because I meet a lot of people who think the very same as me and we are very happy to be a minority.

"We feel that we have a duty to hand it down to future generations," he said.

His passing marks the end of the last direct link to the turbulent and violent birth of the modern Irish nation, as he was the last IRA veteran of the War of Independence.

The muted response to his death of Irish politicians who would not have shared his politics would probably be, for Dan Keating, a fitting epitaph.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-06-2007, 10:36 PM
Rest in Peace. Say hi to Bobby Sands and Padraig Pearse while you're up in Heaven.

Basil Fawlty
10-06-2007, 10:41 PM
He was to serve the first of several stretches in prison, interned in the Curragh Camp.The grandfather of yours truly was in with him then.

A great old soldier and patriot, RIP.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-06-2007, 10:43 PM
The grandfather of yours truly was in with him then.

Very cewl.

A great old soldier and patriot, RIP.

I like that he still holds to the goal, even in his old age.

Basil Fawlty
10-06-2007, 11:08 PM
I like that he still holds to the goal, even in his old age.They all did. Most of them (the anti-Treaty side) never recognised the free state to their dying day. My great uncle never did tax returns for his small business which caused a few headaches along the way. It ended up being put in his wife's name.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-06-2007, 11:10 PM
They all did. Most of them (the anti-Treaty side) never recognised the free state to their dying day. My great uncle never did tax returns for his small business which caused a few headaches along the way. It ended up being put in his wife's name.

Basil, what would you say were (and are) the most nationalist counties in Eire?

Basil Fawlty
10-06-2007, 11:27 PM
Basil, what would you say were (and are) the most nationalist counties in Eire?Hard to say but Louth, Leitrim, Cork, Kerry, Donegal would deserve special mention.

Errigal
10-06-2007, 11:28 PM
Basil, what would you say were (and are) the most nationalist counties in Eire?

I won't answer on Basil's behalf, but I will say I was not surprised in the least when I saw the gentleman in question was from Kerry.

Errigal
10-06-2007, 11:30 PM
Hard to say but Louth, Leitrim, Cork, Kerry, Donegal would deserve special mention.

South Donegal I'd say. I would add Monaghan to the list.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Thanks. This confirms what I've read and been told. Kerry, Cork, and Donegal always are mentioned.

Errigal
10-06-2007, 11:37 PM
Thanks. This confirms what I've read and been told. Kerry, Cork, and Donegal always are mentioned.

If you were to visit Donegal I would not recommend that you assume it is a nationalist stronghold throughout.

Masty
10-14-2007, 07:31 AM
Rest in Peace. Say hi to Bobby Sands and Padraig Pearse while you're up in Heaven.aaahahahahahaaaa.....


All 3 are stoking the fires of Hell as we speak.

And the moral is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q1M4WotMZo


:rofl:

Warka
10-14-2007, 03:31 PM
Piss off, Masty. This man was a nationalist and a patriot.

RIP, old-timer.

cerberus
10-17-2007, 02:16 PM
Although not a "Nationalist" I view the posts made by Masty and Neowoggolo as being in poor taste.
There is one surviving soldier from the Great war alive in the UK - when he goes a physical link with the past goes with him - this last surving ICW veteran is no different - regardless of your views and opinions old men don't deserve abuse in life or death.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-17-2007, 03:05 PM
Although not a "Nationalist" I view the posts made by Masty and Neowoggolo as being in poor taste.
There is one surviving soldier from the Great war alive in the UK - when he goes a physical link with the past goes with him - this last surving ICW veteran is no different - regardless of your views and opinions old men don't deserve abuse in life or death.

What did I say that was in poor taste?

shanemac
10-17-2007, 03:42 PM
The Irish civil war would have to rate as one of the most pointless wars ever fought... well, up there with that war they fought in Central America over the result of a football match.

What a way to start off as a free state... "well, now that we've finally got rid of the English after 800 years of struggle, we can get back to killing each other instead"...

Geist
10-17-2007, 06:14 PM
The Irish civil war would have to rate as one of the most pointless wars ever fought... well, up there with that war they fought in Central America over the result of a football match.

What a way to start off as a free state... "well, now that we've finally got rid of the English after 800 years of struggle, we can get back to killing each other instead"...

It was in a sense fermented by the British so that the new state would be in disarray in its beginnings. A common enough tactic. Witness what they done to India/Pakistan for example.

Warka
10-17-2007, 06:17 PM
Will Scarlet-

Would you care to address my post in this thread here? The neg rep without comment is rather lame. Let's discuss whatever issue you seem to have.

cerberus
10-17-2007, 06:29 PM
Neo - niccolo
[QUOTE]What did I say that was in poor taste?
__________________[/QUOTE

Sorry - misread Masty's post.

Hakluyt
10-17-2007, 06:41 PM
Witness what they done to India/Pakistan for example.
And what exactly was that? What interest did the British have in creating disarray in India?

Basil Fawlty
10-17-2007, 08:58 PM
The Irish civil war would have to rate as one of the most pointless wars ever fought... well, up there with that war they fought in Central America over the result of a football match.

What a way to start off as a free state... "well, now that we've finally got rid of the English after 800 years of struggle, we can get back to killing each other instead"...This is perhaps the worst post I have ever seen you make. The Civil War was very far from being pointless. Absolutely regrettable and terrible, but not pointless.

By saying "what a way to start off as a free state" you have already taken the Pro-Treaty side of the debate for that was precisely what was at issue. Let's, for example, just take the dispute over the wording of the oath which the British demanded include loyalty to the King.

If a man makes a solemn and sacred oath to uphold and defend a set of principles, then, what does he really stand for if he then abandons that oath in order to make another solemn and sacred oath to a set of principles that are in direct contradiction to those he had previously sworn to defend?

It seems to me that such a man cannot be trusted in anything. We can't say what he really believes in, if anything. The spectacle of some Irishmen contradicting themselves and making liars of themselves in the process is not an auspicious beginning for a state, the true nature of which is now abundantly clear to anyone who has been following the brown envelope trail.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-17-2007, 09:01 PM
Basil:

I think it is safe to conclude that the Irish Civil War was a classic battle between principle and pragmatism.

Basil Fawlty
10-17-2007, 09:19 PM
Basil:

I think it is safe to conclude that the Irish Civil War was a classic battle between principle and pragmatism.That's certainly one way of putting it, but in some ways that obscures things as well. The Treaty debates opened up irreconcilable tensions that existed within Sinn Fein at that time. SF was a very broad coalition of strange bedfellows and it is significant that the political elemtns who ended up in the first government of the Free State were neither soldiers nor republicans. They were people who would have settled for Home Rule anyway, which is what the Free State turned out to be in its initial decade.

The majority of tactical commanders and soldiers on the ground stayed true to the Republic, its was the staff officers in Dublin and memebrs of the IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood; which was controlled by Colins) which went with the Treaty. They only did so on Collins' personal assurance that they would return to arms within two years if they could not remove the border by political means.

Errigal
10-18-2007, 01:10 AM
I would only add that I come from a third tradition: Irish Unionist. That's not my politics now but my point is that Irish history is complicated. Perhaps it is better if the Croats and Jews on this site exercise their minds on other topics.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-18-2007, 01:33 AM
I would only add that I come from a third tradition: Irish Unionist. That's not my politics now but my point is that Irish history is complicated. Perhaps it is better if the Croats and Jews on this site exercise their minds on other topics.

No thanks. I find modern Irish history fascinating as does my family...especially those who helped arm the Provos.

:)

Errigal
10-18-2007, 01:49 AM
No thanks. I find modern Irish history fascinating as does my family...especially those who helped arm the Provos.

:)

You know what? I don't give a damn what you think. I don't have a strong opinion on Yugoslavia and I hope you would admit that you lack the knowledge to form an opinion on a United Ireland.

Niccolo and Donkey
10-18-2007, 02:00 AM
You know what? I don't give a damn what you think. I don't have a strong opinion on Yugoslavia and I hope you would admit that you lack the knowledge to form an opinion on a United Ireland.

Because it isn't the case.

Errigal
10-18-2007, 02:09 AM
Because it isn't the case.

What do you mean?

shanemac
10-18-2007, 03:36 PM
This is perhaps the worst post I have ever seen you make. The Civil War was very far from being pointless. Absolutely regrettable and terrible, but not pointless.

By saying "what a way to start off as a free state" you have already taken the Pro-Treaty side of the debate for that was precisely what was at issue. Let's, for example, just take the dispute over the wording of the oath which the British demanded include loyalty to the King.

If a man makes a solemn and sacred oath to uphold and defend a set of principles, then, what does he really stand for if he then abandons that oath in order to make another solemn and sacred oath to a set of principles that are in direct contradiction to those he had previously sworn to defend?

It seems to me that such a man cannot be trusted in anything. We can't say what he really believes in, if anything. The spectacle of some Irishmen contradicting themselves and making liars of themselves in the process is not an auspicious beginning for a state, the true nature of which is now abundantly clear to anyone who has been following the brown envelope trail.

The truth is that if the treaty had been rejected, Britain would not have given Ireland its independence. If they had got their backs up, the Brits could have stuck it out and eventually crushed the IRA.

If their economic and social policies had changed after WWI, they might even have made solid British citizens of the Irish and we might still be a province of the UK to this day (as happened with Scotland).

But in any case, a war was not the right way to settle the argument over whether or not to accept Britain's treaty.

Basil Fawlty
10-18-2007, 04:16 PM
The truth is that if the treaty had been rejected, Britain would not have given Ireland its independence.Do you call what happened in 1922 independence?
If they had got their backs up, the Brits could have stuck it out and eventually crushed the IRA.Lloyd George threatened the delegates that if they didn't sign the Treaty he would flood the country with troops and unleash terrible war. Of course as we know, agreements made under threat are not valid anyway. This further complicates matters.

But in any case, a war was not the right way to settle the argument over whether or not to accept Britain's treaty.The Civil War was not about whether or not to accept the Treaty. The Treaty was accepted when the delegates signed it, it was a fait acompli. The Civil War started when the Free State attacked the army of the Republic with their conscript force in order to enforce the Treaty. As you know, the British armed them and gave them artillery in order to do this.

Masty
11-04-2007, 10:51 PM
Shit like this makes my week-end and has me laughing my balls-off for about 24 hours straight:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7076786.stm


:rofl:

dljordan
12-02-2007, 07:46 PM
"He remained an unreconstructed militant, left Sinn Fein in 1986 when it voted to end its ban on taking seats in the Irish parliament, and became a patron of the breakaway Republican Sinn Fein."

God bless him. Reminds me of my great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy in the American civil war. He refused to sign the Oath of Allegiance to the United States after the war ended so they refused him his veteran's pension when he was an old man.

Hakluyt
12-02-2007, 09:29 PM
"He remained an unreconstructed militant, left Sinn Fein in 1986 when it voted to end its ban on taking seats in the Irish parliament, and became a patron of the breakaway Republican Sinn Fein."

God bless him. Reminds me of my great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy in the American civil war. He refused to sign the Oath of Allegiance to the United States after the war ended so they refused him his veteran's pension when he was an old man.
Except that your great-grandfather was fighting for his independence, while this guy was fighting against the independence of another people.

Basil Fawlty
12-02-2007, 11:12 PM
Except that your great-grandfather was fighting for his independence, while this guy was fighting against the independence of another people.How do you work that out? :rolleyes:

Hakluyt
12-02-2007, 11:45 PM
He was a proponent of a United Ireland in his later years.

Errigal
12-03-2007, 01:50 AM
He was a proponent of a United Ireland in his later years.

I think you may be looking at it a bit too narrowly; that faction are not proponents of a United Ireland but rather an Imaginary Ireland. He was not so much "fighting against the independence of another people" as living a life convinced that those other people didn't really exist. In their ideal, Imaginary Ireland their are no Unionists or Presbyterians or Garda, or Republic or any of it.


The always delightful "Father" Neil Horan is an extreme example of the beautiful dreamers Kerry seems to produce with regularity.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40465000/jpg/_40465719_neil_horan300.jpg

Here is a podcast of a radio phone in show in which Neil Horan and his brother calmly and rationally discuss his insanity with the host. This is Kerry Gold.

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2007/pc/pod-v-190407-30m54s-liveline.mp3

Basil Fawlty
12-03-2007, 06:38 AM
He was a proponent of a United Ireland in his later years.How does that interfere with someone else's independence?

cerberus
12-03-2007, 10:40 PM
Errigal
The always delightful "Father" Neil Horan is an extreme example of the beautiful dreamers Kerry seems to produce with regularity.

This poor man is almost certainly unwell , and it is not "Depression".
The same man who brought down a man who was about to win a gold medal , the same man who walked out in front of a Forumla one car - risking his own life and those of the drivers.
God alone knows what else he has done or been prevented from doing .