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Petr
01-12-2006, 03:45 AM
Nietzsche subscribed to some historical ideas that are today so embarrassingly false ...


Hyper-Nordicist theorizing:

(from Theorizing Myth: Narrative, Ideology, and Scholarship by Bruce Lincoln, 1999), pg 104-105:


"Early in the Genealogy of Morals (1#5), a few paragraphs before the beast first appears (1#11), he spoke of "the blond, that is Aryan, conqueror race" (der herrschend gewordnen blonden, nämlich arischen Eroberer-Rasse) while engaging in some etymological play that is as revealing as it is philologically dubious.

The Latin malus ("bad") (beside which I set melas ("black")) may designate the common man as the dark-colored, above all as the black-haired man ("hic niger est-"), as the pre-Aryan occupant of the soil of Italy who was distinguished most obviously from the blond, that is Aryan, conqueror race by his color; Gaelic, at any rate, offers us a similar case - fin (for example in the name Fin-Gal), the distinguished word for nobility, finally for the good, noble, pure, originally meant the blond-headed, in contradistinction to the dark, black-haired aboriginal inhabitants. The Celts, by the way, were definitely a blond race; it is wrong to associate traces of an essentially dark-haired people which appear on the more careful ethnographical maps of Germany with any sort of Celtic origin or blood-mixture, as Virchow still does: it is rather the pre-Aryan people of Germany who emerge in these places. (The same is true of virtually all Europe: the suppressed race has gradually recovered the upper hand again, in coloring, shortness of skull, perhaps even in the intellectual and social instincts: who can say whether modern social democracy, even more modern anarchism and especially that inclination for "commune," for the most primitive form of society, which is now shared by all the socialists of Europe, does not signify in the main a tremendous counterattack - and that the conqueror and master race, The Aryan (die Eroberer- und Herren-Rasse, die der Arier), is not succumbing physiologically too?) 10

"In this passage, Nietzsche used two thin and misguided pieces of "evidence" - the phonologically impossible comparison of Latin malus ("bad") to Greek melas ("black"), and the tendentious translation of Irish finn as "blond" rather than "fair, shining, brilliant" - as the basis for some far-ranging conclusions. 11

(footnote, pg. 252)

11: The name Fingal, which Nietzsche invoked, also has its problems. Ostensibly, it means "the blond Gael" or "the shining Celt," but the name is unattested in genuine Celtic literature. Rather, this is the warrior hero of James MacPherson's fraudulent "Ossian", discussed in chap. 3."

Seemingly, on this fragile basis, he equated blond hair with Aryan conquerors and the moral good, dark hair with their opposite: not Semites, but sickly pre-Aryans of unspecified sort. The closing sentence of the passage is also worth attention. Disarmingly framed as a parenthesis, it contains Nietzsche's racial recoding of political movements he viewed with distaste: democracy, anarchism, socialism, and communism, all of which he depicted as the revenge of short-skulled, dark-haired, pre-Aryan masses. 12


Yeah right - social democracy has nowhere penetrated the society and masses deeper than in Scandinavia...

Even Nietzsche's most rabid Nazi fans today do not like to advertise how Nietzsche promoted such patent nonsense.



Silly Indomania and amateurish dabbling with Hindu scriptures:

(ibid., pg. 107-109)


III

Some months after completing On the Genealogy of Morals, Nietzsche discovered the Laws of Manu (Manava Dharmasastra), an ancient Indian treatise on ethics, religion, and social structure that excited him greatly. 20 In a letter of 31 May 1888 to Peter Gast, he waxed enthusiastic.

I owe to these last weeks a very important lesson: I found Manu's book of laws in a French translation done in India under strict supervision from the most eminent priests and scholars there. This absolutely Aryan work, a priestly codex of morality based on the Vedas, on the idea of caste and very ancient tradition - supplements my views on religion in the most remarkable way. I confess having the impression that everything else that we have by way of moral lawgiving seems to me an imitation and even caricature of it - preeminently, Egypticism does; but even Plato seems to me in all the main points simply to have been well instructed by a Brahmin. It makes the Jews look like a Chandala race which learns from its masters the principles of making a priestly caste the master which organizes the people. 21

"As Anacleto Verrecchia and Cristiano Grottanelli have recognized, the translation that fell into Nietzsche's hands was the 1876 edition of Louis Jacolliot (1837-90). 22 In contrast to the pioneering version of Sir William Jones (1794) and all subsequent translations, this curious work was based on Tamil rather than Sanskrit texts, which Jacolliot - following the southern pandits with whom he studied - mistakenly took to be the most ancient and authentic. His copious notes also develop an extravagantly idiosyncratic argument, which unfolds in several stages. Thus, he idealized the original religion and culture in India and took the caste system to be a secondary development. In his view, the discourse and practices constitutive of caste were fostered by Brahmans and were the means through which they assumed direction fo civil, political, and religious life, reducing others to subordinate status. Of those victimized through caste, none suffered so much as the outcastes or pariahs termed Candalas in Sanskrit, many of whom, he argued, extricated themselves from their oppressive situation by migrating to the north and west. Different groups of Candalas thus settled in Mesopotamia, where they became the ancestors of Babylonians, Chaldeans, and all others falsely called "Semites", including the Hebrews, who emigrated a secong time from Chaldea to Israel. "Those whom official science calls Semites," Jacolliot preferred to think as "Indo-Asiatic" peoples. While all the world's people originated from India, those of the West - Egyptians and Europeans - came from the higher castes, and for them he reserved the title of "Indo-Europeans." 23 Although he showed sympathy for the Candalas of India, his attitude towards their expatriate descendants was much more condescending, even contemptuous at times. Nowhere was this truer than in his treatment of their religion: "The so-called Semites were themselves so much emigrant Candala slaves that they could never raise themselves above the vulgar conceptions they brought with them form their mother-country. The ignorant Candalas had only seen the outer manifestations of the Hindu cult that we open to the plebs. Nothing left to us by the Chaldaeans, their descendants, suggests that they had been raised on the philosophical and spiritual beliefs of the Brahmans." 24

"Building on, but significantly modifying, Jacolliot's views, Nietzsche imputed fierce resentment to the Candalas and their descendants, then went on to differentiate two kinds of moral project, both of which he associated with the institution of caste. The first of these he called "breeding" (Züchtung), and he saw this as the task undertaken by the Laws of Manu: the cultivation of human subjects for the four sanctioned castes and the forceful subordination of Candalas. The second, he called "taming" (Zähnung) and he associated it with the reaaction of resentful Candalas, particularly when they became priests in a system of their own making. Relatively ignorant of the Indic data and not terribly interested in them for their own sake, Nietzsche appropriated Jacolliot's quirky views in order to apply them to another example: the way (he imagined) medieval priests, Christians descended from Jews, themselves descended from Chaldaeans, and ultimately from Candalas - broke the spirit of the ancient Germans."


I wonder how many pagan Nazis who today gloating cite Nietzsche's evaluation of "Laws of Manu" as completely superior to the New Testament are aware that his thesis rested on the laughable notion that Semites originated from the lower castes of India?

Or that Jacolliot's version of "Manu" (which Nietzsche relied upon) was prepared under the supervision of dark-skinned Dravidian Tamil Brahmins instead of some Sanskrit-speaking ur-Aryans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_people


Petr

Petr
01-12-2006, 03:48 AM
Nietzsche also wrote (in The Genealogy of Morals) that the Jews are ""a people “born into slavery” as Tacitus and the whole ancient world says"


"The whole ancient world"? I don't think so. Nietzsche is just projecting 19th-century image of Jews as cowardly weaklings to the ancient world. (Even Tacitus wrote that Jews were death-despising people, which trait was definitely not associated with slavish mentality in the ancient world)


In fact, most ancient "anti-Semitism" was more like anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe today - eastern Greeks felt that Jews were moving to their turf and elbowing them out.

"Perhaps the most succinct answer to this question was given by Strabo, the great Greek historian/geographer. His "Geography" is described by the Encyclopedia Britannica as "the only extant work covering the whole range of peoples and countries known to both Greeks and Romans during the reign of Augustus (27 BC- 14 AD)". Strabo himself had traveled throughout the length of the Roman Empire, from Tuscany through Europe and Asia Minor down to Egypt, and up the Nile River to the border of Ethiopia. Concerning the Jews, Strabo wrote:

"These Jews have penetrated to every city, and it would not be easy to find a single place in the inhabited world which has not received this race, and where it has not become master."

http://www.ark-of-salvation.org/jews_in_diaspora.htm


It was not until after the destruction of Jerusalem and especially after the ascension of Christianity with Constantine that the modern image of Jews as pathetic scattered ghetto-dwellers really began to form.

This is a is yet another example how you cannot consider Nietzsche to be a reliable historian.


Petr

Petr
01-12-2006, 04:23 AM
Relatively ignorant of the Indic data and not terribly interested in them for their own sake, Nietzsche appropriated Jacolliot's quirky views in order to apply them to another example: the way (he imagined) medieval priests, Christians descended from Jews, themselves descended from Chaldaeans, and ultimately from Candalas - broke the spirit of the ancient Germans.
Btw, Oswald Spengler already pointed out in The Decline of the West that Nietzsche was clearly out of his league with non-European (or even non-Western European...) cultures, which he knew little about.

But like Bruce Lincoln puts it, Nietzsche was probably not even sincerely interested in historical accuracy anyways, for he was making his own reality, being a true predecessor of post-modernist relativism.


Petr

Thomas777
01-12-2006, 05:58 AM
But like Bruce Lincoln puts it, Nietzsche was probably not even sincerely interested in historical accuracy anyways, for he was making his own reality, being a true predecessor of post-modernist relativism.


Petr

I think that is an accurate assesment.

I know, Petr, that you have some bad feelings about Nietzsche on account of his hostility to the Faith...and I do as well.

That said, Nietzsche was not a historian nor a real political theorist, IMO. He was an anti-Modern, elitist storyteller who painted vivid pictures for his readers with peculiar, poetic musings. I think his legacy is overstated, and I think his treatment by the Right and the Left is bizarre (esp. the veneration that the Academy seems to have for him considering his fascistic proclivities).

I personally think that Rightists who consider Nietzsche to be some sort of taproot of valuable theory are immature or just ill-informed and half educated.

Jonathan
01-12-2006, 10:03 AM
11: The name Fingal, which Nietzsche invoked, also has its problems. Ostensibly, it means "the blond Gael" or "the shining Celt," but the name is unattested in genuine Celtic literature. Rather, this is the warrior hero of James MacPherson's fraudulent "Ossian", discussed in chap. 3."
The word "Fingall" in Ireland actually means "blond foreinger" and was used as a term to mean "Norse man" in the 10th-11th century. I've never seen it used otherwise.

Petr
01-12-2006, 10:08 AM
The word "Fingall" in Ireland actually means "blond foreinger" and was used as a term to mean "Norse man" in the 10th-11th century. I've never seen it used otherwise.
I do recall indeed that old Celtic literature mentions both "fingalls" as well some "dubhgalls" - dark foreigners. Who might they have been?


Petr

jcs
01-12-2006, 03:45 PM
Nietzsche subscribed to some historical ideas that are today so embarrassingly false ...
Nietzsche completely ceased being a historian after his earliest writings. Quit being an imbecile: learn to read. Nietzsche used history allegorically.

I personally think that Rightists who consider Nietzsche to be some sort of taproot of valuable theory are immature or just ill-informed and half educated.
I personally think that those who treat Nietzsche dismissively without considering his philosophy, and without giving a decent interpretation thereof (as there are many who misinterpret his philosophy and thus dismiss him), to be 'immature,' 'ill-informed,' and 'half-educated.'

Thomas777
01-12-2006, 03:51 PM
I personally think that those who treat Nietzsche dismissively without considering his philosophy, and without giving a decent interpretation thereof (as there are many who misinterpret his philosophy and thus dismiss him), to be 'immature,' 'ill-informed,' and 'half-educated.'

I would like to know, jcs...how are Nietzsche's musings valuable with respect to crafting a viable political tendency?

Should I call a community meeting here in Chicago and talk to disenfranchised Whites about the "will to power", heroic striving, and Romantic mythology?

Jonathan
01-12-2006, 04:12 PM
I do recall indeed that old Celtic literature mentions both "fingalls" as well some "dubhgalls" - dark foreigners. Who might they have been?


Petr

The Dubhgalls were the Danish Vikings. Supposedly the Norse had more blonds than the Danes.

1-800
01-12-2006, 06:38 PM
I would like to know, jcs...how are Nietzsche's musings valuable with respect to crafting a viable political tendency?


They're not nor are they supposed to be.

jcs
01-12-2006, 06:55 PM
They're not nor are they supposed to be.
That is correct, sir.
Of course, it is interesting to note that two 'Nietzscheans,' Deleuze and Heidegger, both found justification for certain political ideologies (anarchism and national socialism, respectively) within their philosophical musings. More interesting is that Nietzsche managed to be both a fascist and an anarchist, and yet neither. Death to politics.

He needed a high-speed internet connection and a girlfriend.
lol he also loved his sister, had syphillis, was homosexual, was insane, and was historically inaccurate no one should read him lol

Thomas777
01-12-2006, 07:02 PM
That is correct, sir.
Of course, it is interesting to note that two 'Nietzscheans,' Deleuze and Heidegger, both found justification for certain political ideologies (anarchism and national socialism, respectively) within their philosophical musings. More interesting is that Nietzsche managed to be both a fascist and an anarchist, and yet neither. Death to politics.


What purpose do philisophical critiques serve if they are not meant to be translated into political tendencies?

jcs
01-12-2006, 07:25 PM
What purpose do philisophical critiques serve if they are not meant to be translated into political tendencies?
There are means and there are ends. Politics are means. Unless you're a marxist.

Thomas777
01-12-2006, 07:32 PM
There are means and there are ends. Politics are means. Unless you're a marxist.

According to your own calculus, Nietzsche's peculiar dialectic constitutes a valuable end of which there is no practicable course of action to achieve. This is essentially useless, IMO.

Sophistry and intellectual musing is all good and well, but that is not going to save the West.

I think it is incumbent to develop a plan of action that incorporates a realistic theoretical platform.

Fade the Butcher
01-12-2006, 07:48 PM
This is essentially useless, IMO.I agree. Nietzsche was a dead end for me.

1-800
01-12-2006, 07:54 PM
According to your own calculus, Nietzsche's peculiar dialectic constitutes a valuable end of which there is no practicable course of action to achieve. This is essentially useless, IMO.

What relevance does, say, Ion have to disenfranchised Whites in Chicago? I guess it is essentially useless. Most, if not all, worthwhile philosophy (or art), barring a tortured interpretation, does not lend itself to political action.

Sophistry and intellectual musing is all good and well, but that is not going to save the West.

I think it is incumbent to develop a plan of action that incorporates a realistic theoretical platform.

But don't expect a blueprint for a theoretical platform in Nietzsche.

albion
01-12-2006, 08:12 PM
I think it is incumbent to develop a plan of action that incorporates a realistic theoretical platform.

http://www.bad-bad.com/gesch/nietzsche.jpgLay it out for me, Thomas --- I'm all ears, (minus a mustache).
What have you got for us, so far?

Thomas777
01-12-2006, 10:08 PM
What relevance does, say, Ion have to disenfranchised Whites in Chicago? I guess it is essentially useless. Most, if not all, worthwhile philosophy (or art), barring a tortured interpretation, does not lend itself to political action.



But don't expect a blueprint for a theoretical platform in Nietzsche.


Here is why it matters:

We began this discussion by talking about (in part) the way in which Nietzsche has been appropriated by various political factions. After kicking this notion around a bit, you essentially suggested that "Nietzsche is above politics...etc."

That is all good and well, ok? The point I was making to Petr was that if White Nationalism or the "New Right" is going to gain any ground, it needs to have a cohesive intellectual framework from where it derives its core principles.

Nietzsche is not a source for such principles, IMO...hence, when misanthropic, self-styled elitist WNs throw around Nietzschean platitudes, it really is not helpful in any way shape or form. In fact, its quite counterproductive.

Am I making myself clear now?

jcs
01-12-2006, 10:47 PM
In political discussions, I usually only throw around Nietzsche when someone is making an argument for the slaughter of Jews or blacks or whatnot. 'Ressentiment' is an ugly monster, and it dominates the WN scene.
In fact, its quite counterproductive.
Thank God. We don't need any Holocausts.

The point I was making to Petr was that if White Nationalism or the "New Right" is going to gain any ground, it needs to have a cohesive intellectual framework from where it derives its core principles.
Nietzsche analyzed a number of principles and revealed the absurdity thereof. Furthermore, he can be used to support a certain, sane kind of eugenics, as well as a more heroic ethical system. Politics (power-dynamics) is not an end; Nietzsche talks about the will-to-power, politics itself, and gives a telos to politics.
A really good ideology works to create a society that produces and values Nietzsches. That is the value of the political.

Petr
01-12-2006, 10:53 PM
More interesting is that Nietzsche managed to be both a fascist and an anarchist, and yet neither. Death to politics.
In other words, Nietzsche really was a proto-post-modernist who took hardly anything seriously.

(Another trait connecting him to modern hyper-individualistic nerds: he failed to have any children or even proper family-life, being in adolescent rebellion against the memory of his preacher-father...)


Nietzsche's biography fits the profile of an "angry apostate" perfectly...

http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/nietzsche.shtml


"Friedrich Nietzsche's life unquestionably trained him for his role as an "anti-Christian" philosopher. He descended from a long line of clergymen, including his father, giving him the theological background to challenge the familiar religious institutions. Biographers indicate there were at least 20 clergyman in the Nietzsche family within five generations. His paternal grandfather, Friedrich August Ludwig Nietzsche, was even granted an honorary doctorate in 1796 for his work Gamaliel, a defense of Christianity. It was assumed Friedrich would be a minister. As a child, Nietzsche was called the "little minister" by schoolmates. He spent much of his time alone, reading the Bible. Nietzsche's father died in 1849. The young man withdrew deeper into religion.

Friedrich received a scholarship to Schulpforta, an elite prepatory school with only 200 students, in October 1858. The scholarship was intended to fund Nietzsche's training for the clergy. His mother, Franziska, and his young sister, Elisabeth, were dedicated to Friedrich's success, certain of his future.

At the age of 18, Nietzsche lost his faith in traditional religion. His faith received a fatal blow when he found philosophy. In 1865 Nietzsche discovered Schopenhauer's World as Will and Idea. The work forever changed Nietzsche's view of the world. Schopenhauer's philosophy was rather dark for its time; it became a part of Nietzsche's world-view as it was well-suited to his nature. "


And what do you know, he was also a chickenhawk: :rolleyes:

"Nietzsche was conscripted into the military at the age of 23. While he had hoped to avoid the draft, he had no such luck. He was not destined to be in the military however, soon falling (or thrown) from a horse. Nietzsche's shoulder and chest were injured, possibly torn muscles, and he was released from service having not yet completed training. Curiously, Nietzsche continued to idealize the military and its orderly way of life despite not wanting to serve in the army. His respect for the individual gave way at times to a need for order.

...

Still romanticizing the life of soldiers, Nietzsche went to volunteer for military service. This time the army refused him due to his poor eyesight, in addition to his weak upper body. Nietzsche found it possible to serve as a medic, allowing him as close to medicine as his nature would ever allow. As he quickly learned, Nietzsche did not like the sight of blood, and the suffering of others made him ill. He eventually fell ill, possibly due to stress, and was sent home."



Petr

Vindex
01-13-2006, 12:29 AM
One thing I noticed is with the large group, it has to be made personal, so a platform dealing with there pocket books, and then stringing it along from there works, for start. The other one is Hate, if people are not mad they do not move, the egghead amen corner who thinks it is above it, just don't seem to get it. If you want to organize the mass there passion must be kicked in the ass, and inflamed. They are femine. That is my two cents.:222:




According to your own calculus, Nietzsche's peculiar dialectic constitutes a valuable end of which there is no practicable course of action to achieve. This is essentially useless, IMO.

Sophistry and intellectual musing is all good and well, but that is not going to save the West.

I think it is incumbent to develop a plan of action that incorporates a realistic theoretical platform.

albion
01-13-2006, 06:24 PM
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/M_Heidegger/Nietzsche_11.jpg Nietzsche and the Nazis
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=25906

Lord_Lugdreg
01-16-2006, 08:10 AM
Still romanticizing the life of soldiers, Nietzsche went to volunteer for military service. This time the army refused him due to his poor eyesight, in addition to his weak upper body. Nietzsche found it possible to serve as a medic, allowing him as close to medicine as his nature would ever allow. As he quickly learned, Nietzsche did not like the sight of blood, and the suffering of others made him ill. He eventually fell ill, possibly due to stress, and was sent home."

Alright calling Nietzche a Chickenhawk is over the line. The man had numerous health problems throughout his entire life and this did not allow him to physically live out the philosophy he created.

One Nietzche is worth more then a million judeo-christians.