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The Retard
01-13-2006, 12:44 AM
India Acquired Language, Not Genes, From West, Study Says (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0110_060110_india_genes.html)

Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News
January 10, 2006

Most modern Indians descended from South Asians, not invading Central Asian steppe dwellers, a new genetic study reports.

The Indian subcontinent may have acquired agricultural techniques and languages—but it absorbed few genes—from the west, said Vijendra Kashyap, director of India's National Institute of Biologicals in Noida.

The finding disputes a long-held theory that a large invasion of central Asians, traveling through a northwest Indian corridor, shaped the language, culture, and gene pool of many modern Indians within the past 10,000 years.

That theory is bolstered by the presence of Indo-European languages in India, the archaeological record, and historic sources such as the Rig Veda, an early Indian religious text.

Some previous genetic studies have also supported the concept.

But Kashyap's findings, published in the current issue of the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science, stand at odds with those results.

True Ancestors

Testing a sample of men from 32 tribal and 45 caste groups throughout India, Kashyap's team examined 936 Y chromosomes. (The chromosome determines gender; males carry it, but women do not.)

The data reveal that the large majority of modern Indians descended from South Asian ancestors who lived on the Indian subcontinent before an influx of agricultural techniques from the north and west arrived some 10,000 years ago.

Most geneticists believe that humans first reached India via a coastal migration route perhaps 50,000 years ago.

Soon after leaving Africa, these early humans are believed to have followed the coast through southern India and eventually continued on to populate distant Australia.

Peter Underhill, a research scientist at the Stanford University School of Medicine's department of genetics, says he harbors no doubts that Indo-European speakers did move into India. But he agrees with Kashyap that their genetic contribution appears small.

"It doesn't look like there was a massive flow of genes that came in a few thousand years ago," he said. "Clearly people came in to India and brought their culture, language, and some genes."

"But I think that the genetic impact of those people was minor," he added. "You'd don't really see an equivalent genetic replacement the way that you do with the language replacement."

Language, Genes Tell Different Tales

Kashyap and his colleagues say their findings may explain the prevalence of Indo-European languages, such as Hindi and Bengali, in northern India and their relative absence in the south.

"The fact the Indo-European speakers are predominantly found in northern parts of the subcontinent may be because they were in direct contact with the Indo-European migrants, where they could have a stronger influence on the native populations to adopt their language and other cultural entities," Kashyap said.

He argues that even wholesale language changes can and do occur without genetic mixing of populations.

"It is generally assumed that language is more strongly correlated to genetics, as compared to social status or geography, because humans mostly do not tend to cross language boundaries while choosing marriage partners," Kashyap said.

"Although few of the earlier studies have shown that language is a good predictor of genetic affinity and that Y chromosome is more strongly correlated with linguistic boundaries, it is not always so," he added.

"Language can be acquired [and] has been in cases of 'elite dominance,' where adoption of a language can be forced but strong genetic differences remain [because of] the lack of admixture between the dominant and the weak populations."

If steppe-dwelling Central Asians did lend language and technology, but not many genes, to northern India, the region may have changed far less over the centuries than previously believed.

"I think if you could get into a time machine and visit northern India 10,000 years ago, you'd see people … similar to the people there today," Underhill said. "They wouldn't be similar to people from Bangalore [in the south]."

Fade the Butcher
01-13-2006, 08:23 AM
I saw an article about a study just the other day that claimed otherwise.

jcs
01-13-2006, 04:55 PM
Browsing through the article, I didn't see any caste-breakdown of results. A study I viewed a few months ago (if I recall correctly, Fade posted a link to an article about it, first bringing it to my attention) showed that high-caste Indians were far more similar to Europeans than those in the lower-castes.

And, of course, castes have degenerated and inter-bred throughout the millenia of their existence. That is unsurprising.

Fade the Butcher
01-13-2006, 05:03 PM
The article had been posted at Amren.

Crowley
01-13-2006, 05:24 PM
"India has a billion people, 22 official languages, and so many ethnicities that
everyone is a minority."

What ethnicity is the study referring to? The reference to Australia would imply they are referring to australoid/negrito type humans, in which case it's quite true, the genes are not "western".

Petr
01-13-2006, 05:25 PM
I think that the image of Hindu caste system as an Aryan apartheid system is largely just a case of 19th- and 20th-century racialists romantically projecting their own ideals and hopes to ancient India.


"But the problem with the Traditionalist school is that they never listen: why should they listen to an Oriental scholar, when they already have Evola’s or Guénon’s version of Oriental wisdom? So, the subordination of genuine Asian tradition to the pet concerns of some Western seekers and weirdos has continued. The late Frithjof Schuon, a Traditionalist who (like Guénon) converted to Islam, finding it the best embodiment of the “perennial wisdom”, has written a eulogy of the caste system: “Like all sacred institutions, the caste system is based on the very nature of things (…) to justify the caste system, it is enough to ask this question: do heredity and diversity of qualities exist? If yes, the caste system is possible and legitimate.” (26) Yet, it must be said in his favour that he takes a nuance view, valuing egalitarianism as well, viz. as a natural implication of the fact that apart from difference in qualities, all human beings also have something in common: their immortal soul. Moreover, he has partly abandoned the racial view of caste: “Even the Hindu castes, originally purely Indo-European, could not be limited to a race: there are Tamil, Balinese, Siamese Brahmins.” (27) "

http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/downloads/books/aid.htm#Chapter1Section1SubSection6


As Hindu culture spread to Dravidian South and then to the Far East, local elites could often simply buy their way to the Brahmin caste - this in fact was one of the main attractions for their rulers to convert to Hinduism.

That said, I definitely believe that there was a nomadic Aryan invasion to the northern India.


Petr

jcs
01-13-2006, 05:48 PM
But the problem with the Traditionalist school is that they never listen: why should they listen to an Oriental scholar, when they already have Evola’s or Guénon’s version of Oriental wisdom? So, the subordination of genuine Asian tradition to the pet concerns of some Western seekers and weirdos has continued.
Sarcasm and blatant insults... sounds scholarly.

I think that the image of Hindu caste system as an Aryan apartheid system is largely just a case of 19th- and 20th-century racialists romantically projecting their own ideals and hopes to ancient India.
You are correct, but traditionalists didn't really argue that the caste system was intended to be racial inasmuch as saying that it was partially, perhaps unintentionally racial, and should be racial, with 'race' meaning something more than an anthropological term.
A strict caste system becomes racial, anyway, by keeping breeding populations separate from one another and employing a loose system eugenics within each caste to breed toward that caste's function.

Crowley
01-13-2006, 06:20 PM
the gov took the white albinos who they thought might have criminal tendancies from america to australia. australia has some of u.s white albinos which could be considered western genes

Your time frame is a little retarded, Daisy. :nono: