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Petr
10-16-2007, 06:11 PM
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2572


The Fatherless Civilization

From the desk of Fjordman on Mon, 2007-10-15 15:02


American columnist Diana West recently released her book The Death of the Grown-up, where she traces the decline of Western civilization to the permanent youth rebellions of the past two generations. The decade from the first half of the 1960s to the first half of the 1970s was clearly a major watershed in Western history, with the start of non-Western mass immigration in the USA, the birth of Eurabia in Western Europe and the rise of Multiculturalism and radical Feminism.

The paradox is that the people who viciously attacked their own civilization had enjoyed uninterrupted economic growth for decades, yet embraced Marxist-inspired ideologies and decided to undermine the very society which had allowed them to live privileged lives. Maybe this isn't as strange as it seems. Karl Marx himself was aided by the wealth of Friedrich Engels, the son of a successful industrialist.

This was also the age of decolonization in Western Europe and desegregation in the USA, which created an atmosphere where Western civilization was seen as evil. Whatever the cause, we have since been stuck in a pattern of eternal opposition to our own civilization. Some of these problems may well have older roots, but they became institutionalized to an unprecedented degree during the 1960s.

According to Diana West, the organizing thesis of her book "is that the unprecedented transfer of cultural authority from adults to adolescents over the past half century or so has dire implications for the survival of the Western world." Having redirected our natural development away from adulthood and maturity in order to strike the pop-influenced pose of eternally cool youth – ever-open, non-judgmental, self-absorbed, searching for (or just plain lacking) identity – we have fostered a society marked by these same traits. In short: Westerners live in a state of perpetual adolescence, but also with a corresponding perpetual identity crisis. West thinks maturity went out of style in the rebellious 1960s, "the biggest temper tantrum in the history of the world," which flouted authority figures of any kind.

She also believes that although the most radical break with the past took place during the 60s and 70s, the roots of Western youth culture are to be found in the 1950s with the birth of rock and roll music, Elvis Presley and actors such as James Dean. Pop group The Beatles embodied this in the early 60s, but changed radically in favor of drugs and the rejection of established wisdom as they approached 1970, a shift which was reflected in the entire culture.

Personally, one of my favorite movies from the 1980s was Back to the Future. In one of the scenes, actor Michael J. Fox travels in time from 1985 to 1955. Before he leaves 1985, he hears the slogan "Re-elect Mayor....Progress is his middle name." The same slogan is repeated in 1955, only with a different name. Politics is politics in any age. Writers Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale have stated that they chose the year 1955 as the setting of the movie because this was the age of the birth of teen culture: This was when the teenager started to rule, and he has ruled ever since.

As West says, many things changed in the economic boom in the decades following the Second World War: "When you talk about the postwar period, the vast new affluence is a big factor in reorienting the culture to adolescent desire. You see a shift in cultural authority going to the young. Instead of kids who might take a job to be able to help with household expenses, all of a sudden that pocket money was going into the manufacture of a massive new culture. That conferred such importance to a period of adolescence that had never been there before." After generations of this celebration of youth, the adults have no confidence left: "Kids are planning expensive trips, going out unchaperoned, they are drinking, debauching, absolutely running amok, yet the parents say, 'I can't do anything about it.' Parents have abdicated responsibilities to give in to adolescent desire."

She believes that "Where womanhood stands today is deeply affected by the death of grown-up. I would say the sexualized female is part of the phenomenon I'm talking about, so I don't think they're immune to the death of the grown-up. Women are still emulating young fashion. Where sex is more available, there are no longer the same incentives building toward married life, which once was a big motivation toward the maturing process."

Is she right? Have we become a civilization of Peter Pans refusing to grow up? Have we been cut off from the past by disparaging everything old as outmoded? I know blogger Conservative Swede, who likes Friedrich Nietzsche, thinks we suffer from "slave morality," but I sometimes wonder whether we suffer from child morality rather than slave morality. However, there are other forces at work here as well.

The welfare state encourages an infantilization of society where people return to childhood by being provided for by others. This creates not just a culture obsessed with youth but with adolescent irresponsibility. Many people live in a constant state of rebellion against not just their parents but their nation, their culture and their civilization.

Writer Theodore Dalrymple thinks one reason for the epidemic of self-destructiveness in Western societies is the avoidance of boredom: "For people who have no transcendent purpose to their lives and cannot invent one through contributing to a cultural tradition (for example), in other words who have no religious belief and no intellectual interests to stimulate them, self-destruction and the creation of crises in their life is one way of warding off meaninglessness."

According to him, what we are seeing now is "a society in which people demand to behave more or less as they wish, that is to say whimsically, in accordance with their kaleidoscopically changing desires, at the same time as being protected from the natural consequences of their own behaviour by agencies of the state. The result is a combination of Sodom and Gomorrah and a vast and impersonal bureaucracy of welfare."

The welfare state deprives you of the possibility of deriving self-respect from your work. This can hurt a person's self-respect, but more so for men than for women because masculine identity is closely tied to providing for others. Stripped of this, male self-respect declines and society with it. Dalrymple also worries about the end of fatherhood, and believes that the worst child abusers are governments promoting the very circumstances in which child abuse and neglect are most likely to take place: "He who promotes single parenthood is indifferent to the fate of children." Fatherhood scarcely exists, except in the merest biological sense:

"I worked in a hospital in which had it not been for the children of Indian immigrants, the illegitimacy rate of children born there would have approached one hundred per cent. It became an almost indelicate question to ask of a young person who his or her father was; to me, it was still an astounding thing to be asked, 'Do you mean my father now, at the moment?' as if it could change at any time and had in fact changed several times before."

This is because "women are to have children merely because they want them, as is their government-given right, irrespective of their ability to bring them up, or who has to pay for them, or the consequences to the children themselves. Men are to be permanently infantilised, their income being in essence pocket money for them to spend on their enjoyments, having no serious responsibilities at all (beyond paying tax). Henceforth, the state will be father to the child, and the father will be child of the state."

As Swedish writer Per Bylund explains: "Most of us were not raised by our parents at all. We were raised by the authorities in state daycare centers from the time of infancy; then pushed on to public schools, public high schools, and public universities; and later to employment in the public sector and more education via the powerful labor unions and their educational associations. The state is ever-present and is to many the only means of survival – and its welfare benefits the only possible way to gain independence."

Though Sweden is arguably an extreme case, author Melanie Phillips notices the same trends in Britain, too: "Our culture is now deep into uncharted territory. Generations of family disintegration in turn are unravelling the fundamentals of civilised human behaviour. Committed fathers are crucial to their children's emotional development. As a result of the incalculable irresponsibility of our elites, however, fathers have been seen for the past three decades as expendable and disposable. Lone parenthood stopped being a source of shame and turned instead into a woman's inalienable right. The state has provided more and more inducements to women – through child benefit, council flats and other welfare provision – to have children without committed fathers. This has produced generations of women-only households, where emotionally needy girls so often become hopelessly inadequate mothers who abuse and neglect their own children – who, in turn, perpetuate the destructive pattern. This is culturally nothing less than suicidal."

I sometimes wonder whether the modern West, and Western Europe in particular, should be dubbed the Fatherless Civilization. Fathers have been turned into a caricature and there is a striking demonization of traditional male values. Any person attempting to enforce rules and authority, a traditional male preserve, is seen as a Fascist and ridiculed, starting with God the Father. We end up with a society of vague fathers who can be replaced at the whim of the mothers at any given moment. Even the mothers have largely abdicated, leaving the upbringing of children to schools, kindergartens and television. In fashion and lifestyle, mothers imitate their daughters, not vice versa.

The elaborate welfare state model in Western Europe is frequently labelled "the nanny state," but perhaps it could also be named "the husband state." Why? Well, in a traditional society, the role of men was to physically protect and financially provide for their women. In our modern society, part of this task has been "outsourced" to the state, which helps explain why women in general give disproportionate support to high taxation and pro-welfare state parties. According to anthropologist Lionel Tiger, the ancient unit of a mother, a child and a father has morphed from monogamy into "bureaugamy," a mother, a child and a bureaucrat. The state has become a substitute husband. In fact, it doesn't replace just the husband, it replaces the entire nuclear and extended family, raises the children and cares for the elderly.

Øystein Djupedal, Minister of Education and Research from the Socialist Left Party and responsible for Norwegian education from kindergartens via high schools to PhD level, has stated: "I think that it's simply a mistaken view of child-rearing to believe that parents are the best to raise children. 'Children need a village,' said Hillary Clinton. But we don't have that. The village of our time is the kindergarten." He later retracted this statement, saying that parents have the main responsibility for raising children, but that "kindergartens are a fantastic device for children, and it is good for children to spend time in kindergarten before [they] start school."

The problem is that some of his colleagues use the kindergarten as the blueprint for society as a whole, even for adults. In the fall of 2007, Norway's center-left government issued a warning to 140 companies that still hadn't fulfilled the state-mandated quota of 40 percent women on their boards of directors. Equality minister Karita Bekkemellem stated that companies failing to meet the quota will face involuntary dissolution, despite the fact that many are within traditionally male-oriented branches like the offshore oil industry, shipping and finance. She called the law "historic and radical" and said it will be enforced.

Bekkemellem is thus punishing the naughty children who refuse to do as Mother State tells them to, even if these children happen to be private corporations. The state replaces the father in the sense that it provides for you financially, but it acts more like a mother in removing risks and turning society into a cozy, regulated kindergarten with ice cream and speech codes.

Blog reader Tim W. thinks women tend to be more selfish than men vis-a-vis the opposite sex: "Men show concern for women and children while women.... well, they show concern for themselves and children. I'm not saying that individual women don't show concern for husbands or brothers, but as a group (or voting bloc) they have no particular interest in men's well-being. Women's problems are always a major concern but men's problems aren't. Every political candidate is expected to address women's concerns, but a candidate even acknowledging that men might have concerns worth addressing would be ostracized." What if men lived an average of five years and eight months longer than women? Well, if that were the case, we'd never hear the end of it: "Feminists and women candidates would walk around wearing buttons with 'five years, eight months' written on them to constantly remind themselves and the world about this horrendous inequity. That this would happen, and surely it would, says something about the differing natures of male and female voters."

Bernard Chapin interviewed Dr. John Lott at Frontpage Magazine. According to Lott, "I think that women are generally more risk averse then men are and they see government as one way of providing insurance against life's vagaries. I also think that divorced women with kids particularly turn towards government for protection. Simply giving women the right to vote explained at least a third of the growth in government for about 45 years."

He thinks this "explains a lot of the government's growth in the US but also the rest of the world over the last century. When states gave women the right to vote, government spending and tax revenue, even after adjusting for inflation and population, went from not growing at all to more than doubling in ten years. As women gradually made up a greater and greater share of the electorate, the size of government kept on increasing. This continued for 45 years as a lot of older women who hadn't been used to voting when suffrage first passed were gradually replaced by younger women. After you get to the 1960s, the continued growth in government is driven by higher divorce rates. Divorce causes women with children to turn much more to government programs." The liberalization of abortion also led to more single parent families.

Diana West thinks what we saw in the counterculture of the 1960s was a leveling of all sorts of hierarchies, both of learning and of authority. From that emerged the leveling of culture and by extension Multiculturalism. She also links this trend to the nanny state:

"In considering the strong links between an increasingly paternalistic nanny state and the death of the grown-up, I found that Tocqueville (of course) had long ago made the connections. He tried to imagine under what conditions despotism could come to the United States. He came up with a vision of the nation characterized, on the one hand, by an 'innumerable multitude of men, alike and equal, constantly circling around in pursuit of the petty and banal pleasures with which they glut their souls,' and, on the other, by the 'immense protective power' of the state. 'Banal pleasures' and 'immense state power' might have sounded downright science-fictional in the middle of the 19th century; by the start of the 21st century, it begins to sound all too familiar. Indeed, speaking of the all-powerful state, he wrote: 'It would resemble parental authority if, fatherlike, it tried to prepare its charges for a man's life, but, on the contrary, it only tries to keep them in perpetual childhood.' Perhaps the extent to which we, liberals and conservatives alike, have acquiesced to our state's parental authority shows how far along we, as a culture, have reached Tocqueville's state of 'perpetual childhood.'"

This problem is even worse in Western Europe, a region with more elaborate welfare states than the USA and which has lived under the American military umbrella for generations, thus further enhancing the tendency for adolescent behavior.

The question, which was indirectly raised by Alexis de Tocqueville in the 1830s in his book Democracy in America, is this: If democracy of universal suffrage means that everybody's opinion is as good as everybody else's, will this sooner or later turn into a society where everybody's choices are also as good as everybody else's, which leads to cultural relativism? Tocqueville wrote at a time when only men had the vote. Will universal suffrage also lead to a situation where women vote themselves into possession of men's finances while reducing their authority and creating powerful state regulation of everything?

I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that the current situation isn't sustainable. The absence of fatherhood has created a society full of social pathologies, and the lack of male self-confidence has made us easy prey for our enemies. If the West is to survive, we need to reassert a healthy dose of male authority. In order to do so we need to roll back the welfare state. Perhaps we need to roll back some of the excesses of Western Feminism, too.

Petr
10-16-2007, 06:14 PM
I have had similar thoughts myself - modern liberal Westerners are like overgrown spoiled children that have grown in, used to, and taking for granted the affluence and social order that their ancestors built with great efforts and sacrifices. They are people who have lived in very sheltered conditions, and thus are instinctively afraid of getting involved with hard facts of life (like racial competition for resources). Francis Parker Yockey memorably described this Peter Pan syndrome this way:

"Liberalism... wants every day to be a birthday, Life to be a long party."

http://www.solargeneral.com/SG/imperium/imp29.html


Of course, in our own "Thinker" we have a perfect example of a bratty anti-racist globalist who assures us we're going to live in a consumerist lollipop-land for evah and evah...


Petr

Boleslaw
10-16-2007, 06:40 PM
Thank you Petr for posting this. I actually was thinking of posting a thread on this topic, but from a somewhat different perspective, as I'll explain below.

Writer Theodore Dalrymple thinks one reason for the epidemic of self-destructiveness in Western societies is the avoidance of boredom: "For people who have no transcendent purpose to their lives and cannot invent one through contributing to a cultural tradition (for example), in other words who have no religious belief and no intellectual interests to stimulate them, self-destruction and the creation of crises in their life is one way of warding off meaninglessness."

Exactly! Kierkegaard hit the nail on the head on this one when describing the Aesthetic stage in Either/Or.

James Collins noted in his Mind of Kierkegaard that our society tends to idealise the Ethical stage rather than the Aesthetic. Of course he said this in 1953, so then he was probably right. But now we glorify the Aesthetic; which in essence means we've gone down the scale of Life's stages, rather than up to the higher Religious one.

Id certainly like to hear Roland's take on this.

Petr
10-16-2007, 06:45 PM
This phenomenon even has clear historical precedents, even if on a smaller scale.

Just think about all those decadent loser Roman emperors like Caligula, Nero or Commodus - they were basically all pampered brats who had inherited their exalted position with no effort of their own, and proceeded to mismanage things spectacularly. They were also highly keen of entertaining themselves with juvenile stunts.


It is well known that thanks to the industrial revolution and the surplus wealth it has created, average Joe now lives in a splendor that only kings used to possess. Likewise, only now can the masses in Western countries afford to act as irresponsibly as only kooky despots before the modern era were able to. Modern consumerist Westerners have become an atomized horde of selfish little Caligulas, playing demi-gods and appointing dumb animals to their Senates.


Petr

Jimbo Gomez
10-16-2007, 07:21 PM
Petr, have you read Dalrymple's latest book? I don't know its title in English, I got the Dutch copy.

ZOGsoldier
10-16-2007, 07:32 PM
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2572


The Fatherless Civilization

From the desk of Fjordman on Mon, 2007-10-15 15:02


The paradox is that the people who viciously attacked their own civilization had enjoyed uninterrupted economic growth for decades, yet embraced Marxist-inspired ideologies and decided to undermine the very society which had allowed them to live privileged lives. Maybe this isn't as strange as it seems. Karl Marx himself was aided by the wealth of Friedrich Engels, the son of a successful industrialist.


You saw alot of this kind of spoiled revolutionary in the late 60's and early 70's with many children of millionaires espousing communism, some violently.
Three members of a Weathermen cell were killed when a bomb exploded accidentally in a Greenwich Village townhouse, worth millions of dollars, which had been gifted to them by the father of one of their members.
The police they targeted on the other hand, came from solidly working class backgrounds.

An interesting contradiction is my own father, born 1954, who protested the Vietnam War and voted for McGovern. Yet he also worked his way through Cornell on scholarship and, with my mothers help, raised a family with a strong Catholic faith and a marriage that has lasted more than 30 years. While his is a Democrat, he cannot be considered a liberal by any means.

Petr
10-16-2007, 08:11 PM
Petr, have you read Dalrymple's latest book? I don't know its title in English, I got the Dutch copy.
No, I haven't read it. Have you?


Petr

Jimbo Gomez
10-16-2007, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I got a copy of it for my previous birthday. It's good. He has an interesting way of analyzing people's behaviour. He's quite pessimistic about British society, but doesn't bash it or anything.

You'd like it.

Petr
10-16-2007, 08:28 PM
You saw alot of this kind of spoiled revolutionary in the late 60's and early 70's with many children of millionaires espousing communism, some violently.
"Spoiled revolutionaries" were not an unknown phenomenon in pre-modern world either - see Alcibiades, Catilina, Cesare Borgia or Duc d'Orleans...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Philippe_Joseph%2C_Duke_of_Orl%C3%A9ans

(Marquis de Sade might also qualify.)

But as I said, thanks to industrial wealth, nowadays even ordinary bourgeois brats can engage in amusingly carefree social subversion, a game that only debauched noblemen used to be able to play - wallowing in nihilistic destruction to avoid boredom.


Petr

ZOGsoldier
10-17-2007, 02:57 AM
Something I think we are missing in male maturity:women. My mother described her family in her youth in Upstate New York as 'poor white trash.' Despite this she made it through Cornell on scholarship and maintains a very moral, traditional Catholic set of ethics. Most important to her is her children and her marriage. If I had to guess my father's maturity and that of an increasingly rare part of the male population has to do with the women in their lives.

Kodos
10-17-2007, 03:14 AM
The movie fight club correctly diagnonses all of this, that and the cynical tone is why I really liked the movie. The nihilistic solution wasn't something I agreed with though.

Petr
10-17-2007, 08:00 AM
The movie fight club correctly diagnonses all of this, that and the cynical tone is why I really liked the movie. The nihilistic solution wasn't something I agreed with though.
I would say that "Fight Club" rather depicts precisely the kinds of Peter Pan-types who cannot rebel against the rotten consumerist system in a mature, constructive manner, but indulge in childish revolutionary fantasies instead, in destruction for its own sake - notice how far the main characters are removed from normal family life.

The writer of original Fight Club book, Chuck Palahniuk, was afterwards outed as a homosexual.

"Also, there was a time here in Portland when fundamental Christians were trying to make homosexuals into second-class citizens. It was an initiative called Measure Nine. Well, so many people were trying to raise money against this initiative by sponsoring dinners. I sponsored a dinner and several of my students volunteered their help. Chuck was one of them. Chuck was one of the waiters. Who knows if he pissed in any of the drinks, but as far as all appearances go, Chuck was the picture perfect waiter."

http://chuckpalahniuk.net/features/interviews/tomspanbauer/


Palahniuk is a fake, a cartoon rebel. (Many reviewers have noted how Fight Club does not really take its own stated subversive ideals seriously, but just pretentiously toys around with them.)

As traditional Roman Catholic writer E. Michael Jones puts it, nobody embodies the empty immature narcissism of consumer society more than a homosexual does:

One of the most blatant forms of magic through ingestion is, of course, homosexuality, and through its connection with narcissism we can get some inkling of the purpose behind the major cultural offensive in favor of homosexuality. The homosexual is the consumer culture’s version of the ideal citizen because he takes all of the strains of narcissism to their logical antiessentialist conclusion. The homosexual qua homosexual can form no family and, as a result, no real community; in a culture which promotes sexual liberation as a form of control by breaking down family and community, homosexuality is the most exaggerated form of sexual individualism. The homosexual “lifestyle,” which is based on unnatural sexual acts, is proof that there is no nature and, therefore, no reality. By promoting homosexuality as a viable alternative lifestyle, the consumer culture is saying that fantasy can triumph over reality, which is the essence of the narcissistic personality disorder.

Like narcissism, homosexuality is a function of father deprivation. The less father, the less reality. The less father, the less family. The less family, the less reality. The less community, the less reality. The reverse of all of those equations is also true. By fostering narcissism and promoting narcissistic personalities—homosexuals, rock stars, etc.—to positions of celebrity and prominence, the consumer culture weakens family and community and strengthens its hold over the weakened individuals who must struggle through life without support from community or family. The only thing they can hold onto without fear of reprisal is their narcissistic fantasies of themselves as grandiose and “special.”

All of the narcissistic pathologies find their culmination in the homosexual, whose lifestyle is a triumph over nature and therefore over reality as well. Since there is no reality, then there is no check on the narcissistic fantasies. But since those fantasies are ultimately illusory and, therefore, debilitating, giving the person who gives into them an increasingly “empty” self, they also function as the prime instrument of control. In other words, the culture of narcissism promotes the illusion of omnipotence that is the prime characteristic of the grandiose self knowing full well that it is an illusion because it knows just as well that people can be controlled by manipulating that illusion. Media phenomena like the Harry Potter movie are an example of that manipulation. However, the main instrument of control is using consumption as the device which fills the “empty” self, which has been drained of content by the destruction of family, tradition, community and religion. The narcissist consumer is condemned to “buy life-style in a vain attempt to transform” lives which are unsatisfying because they are based on illusion and as a result “unfixable.” As a result, “the late 20th century has . . . become an advertising executive’s dream come true: Life-style has become a product that sells itself, and the individual has become a consumer who desperately seeks to buy.”
http://www.culturewars.com/2002/potter.html

Jones also sells this DVD:

"Why the Homosexual is Our Ideal Citizen. President Clinton once told homosexual supporters he thought promotion of their lifestyle should be made mandatory in public schools. He and vice-president Gore praised Hollywood for promoting homosexuality. Why? There aren't enough homosexual citizens to affect the voting balance. This is an attempt to turn the homosexual into the ideal citizen and a role model for us and our children. Do you know why we are all supposed to act like homosexuals even if we aren't? This talk is crucial to those who want to understand the political meaning of homosexuality and how it is being used against the overhwelming majority of this country's citizens. "

http://www.culturewars.com/tapes.html


And I definitely recommend this piece:

The anti-Christian economics of John Maynard Keynes

It has been nearly sixty years since the Keynesian revolution. The effects of the "short- run" and "childless" philosophy of Mr. Keynes are clear: nearly all western governments have followed the Keynesian prescription of spending and consumption, and have run large annual budget deficits for decades. In Canada, the federal debt is now approaching a staggering 550 billion dollars, and the country is joining the ranks of Third World nations in terms of its level of public debt (we are just behind Burundi and just ahead of Morocco). Interest payments on the Canadian federal debt are now the largest single government expenditure.

Our public debt represents our lust to consume today without thought for tomorrow. We have, in large measure, spent our children's inheritance (as my least favourite bumper sticker reads). We have, to put it very bluntly, practiced homosexual economics, but we have not, as Mr. Keynes expected, spent ourselves into prosperity.
http://www.tkc.com/resources/resources-pages/keynes.html


Petr

Petr
10-17-2007, 07:49 PM
According to him, what we are seeing now is "a society in which people demand to behave more or less as they wish, that is to say whimsically, in accordance with their kaleidoscopically changing desires, at the same time as being protected from the natural consequences of their own behaviour by agencies of the state. The result is a combination of Sodom and Gomorrah and a vast and impersonal bureaucracy of welfare."
Larry Auster just made what I think is a good, succinct description of how liberal collectivists and libertarian individualists conspire together against healthy society:

Ahh, but that's where the catch comes. Libertarians want the state out of everything, eliminating the very concept of "public." For example, they want the entire U.S. to be turned into private property so that the government would have nothing to do with immigration laws. Immigration would be a matter of whether private property owners want to allow foreigners to enter their property. Similarly, libertarians want to remove the state's authority over the institution of marriage. Marriage would be instituted and performed by private individuals and groups, with no state involvement, and with each group defining marriage as it likes. Libertarians want to turn all of public society into private society, and all public spaces into private spaces. So, in a libertarian America, there would be no such thing as a public restroom. If people have the right to engage in private consensual activity, and if the owner of the Minneapolis airport or the O'Hare airport allows homosexual activity to go on in the airport restrooms, there would be no basis on which to oppose it, other than not using that airport.
...

Liberals say that religion (translation: Christianity) should be banned in the public square, not in private, but then, through never-ending growth of state authority, they keep expanding the public square until religion is banned virtually everywhere.

Similarly, libertarians say that consensual sex acts can only be banned in public, not in private, but then, through never-ending reduction of state authority, they would keep expanding the private sphere until consensual sex acts cannot be banned anywhere.

Thus the statist liberals on one side and the anti-statist liberals (i.e. libertarians) on the other have the liberal bases covered: Religion permitted nowhere; sodomy permitted everywhere.
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009029.html


Petr

Roland
10-17-2007, 09:09 PM
Exactly! Kierkegaard hit the nail on the head on this one when describing the Aesthetic stage in Either/Or.

James Collins noted in his Mind of Kierkegaard that our society tends to idealise the Ethical stage rather than the Aesthetic. Of course he said this in 1953, so then he was probably right. But now we glorify the Aesthetic; which in essence means we've gone down the scale of Life's stages, rather than up to the higher Religious one.

Id certainly like to hear Roland's take on this.

Various commentators have remarked at the similarity between the Aesthetic and Ethical stage. I believe the Ethicist represents the Kantian deontological ethicist: he who emphasizes the primacy of the individual practical reasoner apart from the whole. The Aesthete apotheosizes the moment over the eternal, the contingent over the transcendent; the Ethicist exalts the individual apart from the whole - apart from God.

Liberal culture is in many ways an agglomeration of the aesthetic and the ethical: each individual is sufficient spiritually, rationally, ethically in and of himself from the time he is born. One of the chief failures of enlightenment philosophy was to ignore the stark contrast between childhood and adulthood, and the process of transformation from the former to the latter. The avowed self-sufficiency of each individual left no room for the cultivation of the moral and intellectual virtues, which in previous systems was a necessary condition for the transition to adulthood.

I would say that "Fight Club" rather depicts precisely the kinds of Peter Pan-types who cannot rebel against the rotten consumerist system in a mature, constructive manner, but indulge in childish revolutionary fantasies instead, in destruction for its own sake - notice how far the main characters are removed from normal family life.

I agree. The Peter Pan analogy is perfect.

The putative "overcoming" of the Nietzsche-type (such as Tyler Durden), necessarily manifests itself as destructive, for in reality, the position is only polemical, not positive. There is nothing to be created or accessed outside of the whole; change must occur from within a hierarchy of acknowledged goods and goals. To overcome and create something from nothing, Man would have to be God.

Jimbo Gomez
10-17-2007, 09:32 PM
I can see a pattern like this with many of the people of my age here. Traditionally, people in Flanders never left home early. It is said that the more south you go in Europe, the longer children continue to live with their parents. This is true, but Flanders is the exception to the rule, because situation here is comparable to that in Italy.

Basically, if you're in your twenties here and you're single, you don't move out. it is socially completely acceptable, and has always been.

Where I'm going with this: a lot, if not most, of my male friends are in their 20s, single and still live with their parents. They work, and spend most of their money either on petrol for their car or on going out, and save almost nothing. They're fun people to go out with obviously.

Because I'm the oldest one of the group and the only one with a university degree, I fall in a higher income bracket than they do. I save what I can though because I plan to buy myself an apartment and don't want to put myself over my ears in debt for it (I'll have to borrow, obviously, but if you borrow the entire price of an apartment, plus taxes you'll end up paying 100 € per month, at least, more than if you had saved a good chunk of money beforehand). This leads to the strange situation that when we go out in group I could theoretically spend more than they do, but I'm always on the tightest budget. Perhaps in a year or three that'll be the same with them, who knows.

omni
10-17-2007, 09:46 PM
There's already an entire book on this subject:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27259

I would say that "Fight Club" rather depicts precisely the kinds of Peter Pan-types who cannot rebel against the rotten consumerist system in a mature, constructive manner, but indulge in childish revolutionary fantasies instead, in destruction for its own sake - notice how far the main characters are removed from normal family life.


Fight Club actually does a pretty good job of identifying and analyzing all of the problems inherent in consumer/capitalist culture. The main shortcoming is that it really doesn't advocate any solution; at the end of the movie the protagonist seems to just simplify his qualms as personal depression.

Kodos
10-17-2007, 09:55 PM
There's already an entire book on this subject:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27259



Fight Club actually does a pretty good job of identifying and analyzing all of the problems inherent in consumer/capitalist culture. The main shortcoming is that it really doesn't advocate any solution; at the end of the movie the protagonist seems to just simplify his qualms as personal depression.

Exactly, the diagnoses is good. There isn't any treatment though.

Kodos
10-17-2007, 09:56 PM
Where I'm going with this: a lot, if not most, of my male friends are in their 20s, single and still live with their parents. They work, and spend most of their money either on petrol for their car or on going out, and save almost nothing.

I do this except I save almost everything... I go out cheap.

Kodos
10-17-2007, 09:57 PM
Where I'm going with this: a lot, if not most, of my male friends are in their 20s, single and still live with their parents. They work, and spend most of their money either on petrol for their car or on going out, and save almost nothing.

I do this except I save (well invest) almost everything... I go out cheap.

Living with your parents has RECENTLY become socially acceptable here, because cost of living is too high.

Jimbo Gomez
10-18-2007, 04:39 PM
I'll move out the day I'll be able to buy myself something. I won't waste 500 euro each month on rent. Paying off someone else's mortgage on his third house when you're not absolutely obliged to do so is for chumps. Some people have to rent, but those who don't and do are idiots.

Boleslaw
10-18-2007, 11:09 PM
Various commentators have remarked at the similarity between the Aesthetic and Ethical stage.

Really? I usually hear about the similiarities between the Ethical and the Religious stages.

Nevertheless, I have been pondering upon this issue in regards to my pet-project of Kierkegaardian metapolitics. I'm able to articulate to a degree what Aesthetic and Religious politics largely mean, but Im having difficulty fully defining the Ethical stage on this one - largely because of some issues you mention below.



Liberal culture is in many ways an agglomeration of the aesthetic and the ethical: each individual is sufficient spiritually, rationally, ethically in and of himself from the time he is born. One of the chief failures of enlightenment philosophy was to ignore the stark contrast between childhood and adulthood, and the process of transformation from the former to the latter. The avowed self-sufficiency of each individual left no room for the cultivation of the moral and intellectual virtues, which in previous systems was a necessary condition for the transition to adulthood.


I fully agree with this assestment. Sadly I'll have to post on this some other time.

Roland
10-19-2007, 02:35 AM
Really? I usually hear about the similiarities between the Ethical and the Religious stages.

I do believe that the Ethical is a subspecies of the Aesthetic stage, but my opinion here is tainted by the training I received in Kierkegaardian existentialism. My educator was a strong proponent of this view; he also encouraged me to read this (http://www.amazon.com/Kierkegaard-Godly-Deceiver-Pseudonymous-Writings/dp/0231072325/ref=sr_1_1/104-8578844-9228762?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192760680&sr=8-1) book, which outlines a similar version of the relationship between the Aesthetic and the Ethical.

Nevertheless, I have been pondering upon this issue in regards to my pet-project of Kierkegaardian metapolitics. I'm able to articulate to a degree what Aesthetic and Religious politics largely mean, but Im having difficulty fully defining the Ethical stage on this one - largely because of some issues you mention below.

I look forward to your elaborations, and I'll try to flesh out the relationship between the Aesthetic and the Ethical if I can find time.

I fully agree with this assestment. Sadly I'll have to post on this some other time.

You and I both.

On a similar note, I've noticed a book entitled Soren Kierkegaard and the Common Man (http://www.amazon.com/Soren-Kierkegaard-Common-Jorgen-Bukdahl/dp/0802847382/ref=sr_1_1/104-8578844-9228762?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192760989&sr=1-1) on the shelves around here; apparently it's a reprint. The mere description of the book confirms, at least partially, our earlier discussion about Kierkegaard's relationship to the masses.

From amazon:

"This strikingly original work by Jørgen Bukdahl, first published in Danish in 1961, explores Søren Kierkegaard's relationship, both in the abstract and in his everyday life, with "ordinary" people.

"Seeking to undermine the stereotype of Kierkegaard as socially aloof and politically conservative, Bukdahl finds him to be fundamentally interested in and concerned about the plight of "the common man."

Fissile
10-19-2007, 03:15 AM
I do this except I save (well invest) almost everything... I go out cheap.

Living with your parents has RECENTLY become socially acceptable here, because cost of living is too high.

Up until very recently, 3 generations living in one house was the norm all over the world. Before old age pension and welfare schemes, people relied on their immediate and extended families for support. Children provided security for people when they became too old to work. Grandparents looked after grandchildren while the children worked, etc.

As petroleum reserves become depleted, and standards of living fall all over the Western world, you can expect these types of living arrangements to become the norm again.

Kodos
10-19-2007, 05:30 AM
I'll move out the day I'll be able to buy myself something. I won't waste 500 euro each month on rent. Paying off someone else's mortgage on his third house when you're not absolutely obliged to do so is for chumps. Some people have to rent, but those who don't and do are idiots.

I understand not wanting to live with parents...

But weighing the advantages and disadvantages I'd rather be rich by 30.

Jimbo Gomez
10-20-2007, 01:31 PM
You won't be rich by 30 weikel. Just not until your neck in debt if you save up enough to be able to loan a bit less.

Kodos
10-20-2007, 04:08 PM
You won't be rich by 30 weikel.

We shall see.

Petr
01-04-2010, 09:44 PM
According to Diana West, the organizing thesis of her book "is that the unprecedented transfer of cultural authority from adults to adolescents over the past half century or so has dire implications for the survival of the Western world." Having redirected our natural development away from adulthood and maturity in order to strike the pop-influenced pose of eternally cool youth – ever-open, non-judgmental, self-absorbed, searching for (or just plain lacking) identity – we have fostered a society marked by these same traits. In short: Westerners live in a state of perpetual adolescence, but also with a corresponding perpetual identity crisis. West thinks maturity went out of style in the rebellious 1960s, "the biggest temper tantrum in the history of the world," which flouted authority figures of any kind.
Revisiting this topic, I believe there is one depressingly obvious reason why this shift in the balance of parent-child power has occurred: Western birthrates have plunged below the replacement level.

In pre-modern times, the children were plentiful, and the power of parents was correspondingly greater - for example, if one son was being insolent, father could usually with relative ease drive him out of his life, knowing that there would still be other children for him to love and to care for him in his old days.


This may sound like crude economism, but I do believe that just like workers feel a lot more powerful in their relation to their employer when they know that they cannot be replaced just like that, so children in low-fertility West soon became (at least subconsciously) aware that their elders simply could not afford to "disown" them as easily as patriarchs of old were able to do with their disgraceful offspring.

So paradoxically, the fewer Western children have become the more valuable they are seen, and see themselves.

Even traditionally very patriarchal Orientals are said to be feeling the effect of this phenomenon today as "Little Emperors" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Emperor_Syndrome) of one-child Chinese families know how precious commodity they are and behave accordingly.


Petr

Bronze Age Pervert
01-04-2010, 10:13 PM
As usual social conservatives have it backward. The problem in Western societies is a senility, encrusted bureaucracy/proceduralism, administrative centralization, and a domination of the political and cultural landscape by old people's concerns and old women's concerns--health care, social security, street crime, etc.; Western societies are being turned into giant nursery homes. It's perverse to say that the problem is youthfulness just because there are some sitcoms with dumb themes. In all areas where it matters, the West is about as anti-youth as you can get. Some 70-yr-old clown wearing bermuda shorts is a cosmetic matter and doesn't mean what conservatives think it does.

By contrast the Muslim world is truly youthful and dominated by the desires of young men, as was true for Europe in the 1920's and 30's.

Petr
01-04-2010, 11:33 PM
As usual social conservatives have it backward. The problem in Western societies is a senility, encrusted bureaucracy/proceduralism, administrative centralization, and a domination of the political and cultural landscape by old people's concerns and old women's concerns--health care, social security, street crime, etc.; Western societies are being turned into giant nursery homes. It's perverse to say that the problem is youthfulness just because there are some sitcoms with dumb themes. In all areas where it matters, the West is about as anti-youth as you can get. Some 70-yr-old clown wearing bermuda shorts is a cosmetic matter and doesn't mean what conservatives think it does.
All age groups have gotten their own share of modern corruption. Today's youths all too often seem to love that gilded cage of theirs. And many of those who have aborted most of their potential offspring will probably get poetic justice when their only child will euthanize them in the end.

You cannot deny that in modern world, elderly people in general are treated with the sort of disrespect that would have shocked our ancestors (both Christian and pagan) and that still shocks members of such "youthful" cultures you mention, like the Muslims. One Christian missionary wrote that Arabs are in "white-hot rage" when they see how disrespectfully some Westerners treat their elders.

More about the Chinese phenomenon I mentioned:

One factor frequently associated with the Little Emperor effect, the four-two-one family structure refers to the collapse of the traditionally large Chinese family into four grandparents and two parents doting on one child.[3] Beyond the obvious further funneling of resources towards the whims and potential of the only child, this four-two-one reconfiguration of the familial structure has distinct ramifications for Chinese society. The Little Emperors of the one-child policy have warped the traditional family beyond recognition; "in the past, the power in a household devolved from the father," who ruled over a multitude of offspring.[3] However, within the current influence of the "spoiled" only children, the household structures itself entirely around the one child. This shift from earlier structures that supported the culture of filial piety has caused much concern; "traditionally, a great number of children, particularly sons, was seen as proof of the family's standing and it guaranteed the continuity of ancestor-worshipping customs."[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_emperor

By contrast the Muslim world is truly youthful and dominated by the desires of young men, as was true for Europe in the 1920's and 30's.
Muslim birthrates are falling quickly, and Fascism was a sort of desperate attempt of decaying apostate cultures to artificially return to the spiritual power of their youth - the political equivalent of Viagra. Vitalism is the third stage of nihilism, like Seraphim Rose put it.


Petr

mladikov
01-05-2010, 01:12 AM
As usual social conservatives have it backward. The problem in Western societies is a senility, encrusted bureaucracy/proceduralism, administrative centralization, and a domination of the political and cultural landscape by old people's concerns and old women's concerns--health care, social security, street crime, etc.; Western societies are being turned into giant nursery homes. It's perverse to say that the problem is youthfulness just because there are some sitcoms with dumb themes. In all areas where it matters, the West is about as anti-youth as you can get. Some 70-yr-old clown wearing bermuda shorts is a cosmetic matter and doesn't mean what conservatives think it does.

By contrast the Muslim world is truly youthful and dominated by the desires of young men, as was true for Europe in the 1920's and 30's.
I think there's much truth in this. The West is greying demographically and spiritually. Nowhere is this more evident than in the realm of politics - the individualist ethos of free love and free thought of the 60s 'flower children' and the paranoid Cold War militarism of the Buckley-Reagan set have been passed onto younger minds without any alteration in substance. We are still carrying out faithfully the programs and ideals of aging boomers, and look where it's got us - a dead, apathetic society marked by cultural inanition and petty concerns over 'safety' and economic well-being. I haven't been to Finland, but I'm sure if you simply look around you, Petr, you'll understand what I mean. Everywhere the West is continually subjected to the control and influence of youthful, vibrant foreign cultures - Mexicans, Muslims, Africans, etc - and yet you pathetically admonish us to 'respect our elders'.

Having lived for years in the rich gated communities of southern Orange County, I speak from experience when I say that often the elderly in this country are no less selfish and materialistic than their disrespectful liberal progeny. They moan nonstop - to the near-exclusion of everything else - about property values, economic security (i.e. Medicaid, retirement planning and social insurance), fiscal 'irresponsibility' (generosity is a big no-no - except when it comes to social security taxes!), youthful disinterest in gainful employment - and then have the audacity to lecture us about how our generation has declined in spirituality. Thou didst reject the one infallible banner which was offered Thee to make all men bow down to Thee alone - the banner of earthly bread; and Thou hast rejected it for the sake of freedom and the bread of Heaven. Unless you believe Christianity is about attaining this 'earthly bread', it all seems just a bit hypocritical to me.

gooddeath
01-05-2010, 02:09 AM
It's easy to save up a decent amount of money if you have the smarts to. The thing is is that too many hemorrage their money away chasing plastic crap and the newest video game systems and cable tv and whatnot. Buy bulk rice and beans instead of meat for dinner every night. Shop at target instead of buying brand name clothes. Turn the heat down to the low 50s and wear multiple layers of sweaters instead. There's tons of ways to save thousands of dollars each year, but people are unwilling to part with their luxuries and would rather just bitch that they can't have everything their neighbor has.

America and the Western world are by no means poor, not by any means. People claiming to be "struggling" in this country make me laugh.

VUK
01-06-2010, 11:25 PM
And just for good measure, children of fatherless households account for:

63% of youth suicides. (Source: US Dept. of Health & Human Services, Bureau of the Census).

71% of pregnant teenagers. (Source: US Dept. of Health & Human Services)

90% of all homeless and runaway children.

70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)

85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders. (Source: Center for Disease Control).

80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger. (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol. 14, p. 403-26, 1978).

71% of all high school dropouts. (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools).

75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers. (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children).

85% of all youths sitting in prisons. (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992).

Józef Piłsudski
01-07-2010, 01:09 AM
As usual social conservatives have it backward. The problem in Western societies is a senility, encrusted bureaucracy/proceduralism, administrative centralization, and a domination of the political and cultural landscape by old people's concerns and old women's concerns--health care, social security, street crime, etc.; Western societies are being turned into giant nursery homes.
I think you're just changing the label around. Old people are in need of care just like children, whether you use children or the old it doesn't matter they still symbolize the dependent. The point is that the nanny-state is acting like a provider, that the state and culture is being driven by the irresponsible and dependent.

It's perverse to say that the problem is youthfulness just because there are some sitcoms with dumb themes.
You can't reduce the original article to a concern about "some sitcoms with dumb themes" instead it was complaining about a lack of responsibility in our society and the need for someone else (the state) to take the role of the responsible provider.


In all areas where it matters, the West is about as anti-youth as you can get. Some 70-yr-old clown wearing bermuda shorts is a cosmetic matter and doesn't mean what conservatives think it does. The concern wasn't the cosmetics but where the cosmetics were coming from and the implications of having a culture driven by teenagers. No longer do we look to responsible adults but irresponsible children for the basis of culture. It's an attack on tradition and the values that tradition has held and passed on.


By contrast the Muslim world is truly youthful and dominated by the desires of young men, as was true for Europe in the 1920's and 30's.
There's a world of a difference between responsible young men and the irresponsible childish men of today's western culture.

Józef Piłsudski
01-07-2010, 01:24 AM
I think there's much truth in this. The West is greying demographically and spiritually. Nowhere is this more evident than in the realm of politics - the individualist ethos of free love and free thought of the 60s 'flower children' and the paranoid Cold War militarism of the Buckley-Reagan set have been passed onto younger minds without any alteration in substance. We are still carrying out faithfully the programs and ideals of aging boomers, and look where it's got us - a dead, apathetic society marked by cultural inanition and petty concerns over 'safety' and economic well-being.
All that has been passed on is this attitude of perpetual rebellion. This attitude may connect recent generations but it certainly doesn't constitute a tradition. How often are parents mocked in old photos for their ridiculous 70s (or xxxx year) clothes? The only tradition is non-tradition. Of course not everyone is subject to this counter-culture nor is anyone restricted by concrete definitions, but the attitude is certainly prevalent and it explains a lot of our modern woes.

I haven't been to Finland, but I'm sure if you simply look around you, Petr, you'll understand what I mean. Everywhere the West is continually subjected to the control and influence of youthful, vibrant foreign cultures - Mexicans, Muslims, Africans, etc - and yet you pathetically admonish us to 'respect our elders'.
I see this reliance on foreign cultures as part of this spirit of youthful rebelliousness. The article talks about the constant need to attack our Western heritage, and that can take the form of adopting foreign cultures.

Also, if you have a hippy for a grandparent/parent I hardly think that the author of this article would tell you to look to them to mimick. The assumption that the author appeared to be making was that your parent/grandparent was retaining old cultural values and was pre-1960. Even if your grandparent was pre-1960s it doesn't mean that they have been free from the influence of the 60s either. There may also be a generation difference between us and the author, perhaps his parents are pre-60s whereas many of us have parents who were of the 60s.

Anyway, part of that pre-1960s culture was to respect your elders no matter how cooky they were. Picking and choosing the criteria for which we should respect our elders certainly is not Christian nor traditional.

Having lived for years in the rich gated communities of southern Orange County, I speak from experience when I say that often the elderly in this country are no less selfish and materialistic than their disrespectful liberal progeny. They moan nonstop - to the near-exclusion of everything else - about property values, economic security (i.e. Medicaid, retirement planning and social insurance), fiscal 'irresponsibility' (generosity is a big no-no - except when it comes to social security taxes!), youthful disinterest in gainful employment - and then have the audacity to lecture us about how our generation has declined in spirituality. Thou didst reject the one infallible banner which was offered Thee to make all men bow down to Thee alone - the banner of earthly bread; and Thou hast rejected it for the sake of freedom and the bread of Heaven. Unless you believe Christianity is about attaining this 'earthly bread', it all seems just a bit hypocritical to me.
It depends on what you mean by materialistic. If by being materialistic you mean worrying about "property values, economic security , fiscal irresponsibility" is that not a concern of responsible people? How can you take care of a family if you have don't have the means to take care of them? Worrying about material goods and wealth is a sign of being mature and responsible. Is it not the job of the father to worry about these things and ensure that he can provide for himself and his family? Certainly this would be the vocation of a traditional Christian father, and keep in mind that not everybody is called to live the ascetic simplicity of a monk.

On the other hand, not worrying about material goods is a sign of being immature and irresponsible, hoping that someone else will provide for you, which is exactly what the original article was complaining about. As for generosity being a "no-no" my experience has been the opposite but my grandparents were rural folk from the foothills of the Carpathians. In any case most responsible grandparents tend to care immensely about their local Churches and about leaving a large fortune behind for their family. In fact they appear to be shy with charities only because they fear that it takes away from what they hope to give to their children.

Petr
01-07-2010, 10:54 AM
Anyway, part of that pre-1960s culture was to respect your elders no matter how cooky they were. Picking and choosing the criteria for which we should respect our elders certainly is not Christian nor traditional.
This is true; "my family, right or wrong". Even though our elders now are paradoxically the boomers that taught us not to respect our elders.

On the other hand, "amoral familism (http://www.adriaticinstitute.org/?action=amoral_familism)" has been traditionally the great enemy of civic spirit and common charity, and still is in third world cultures.

True Christian piety is an opponent of both amoral familism and amoral statism, but still Christian believers must pay their proper dues to both state and family in this world:

1 Timothy 5:8

If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

eZSdRHPc6Rs


Petr

KerguelenExileDissident
01-07-2010, 11:17 AM
In the cases of civilizations, ours reminds me of the field battle, when one slip or or chance ambush turns the side in whosoever favor.

Too many failures by the right side and too many successes by the wrong side.

Revolutions of 1789, 1848, 1917, blah blah the list goes on.

From the Ancient regime, Vichy France, Nazi Germany, to south American dictatorships, failures of Napoleon III and Kaiser Wilhelm....

It's not a wonder this civilization cannot fight for itself, the Liberal establishment has ruled way too long.

I seriously hope (and history does offer some hope) that things will turn around or at LEAST moderate on some level. I really don't want to spend my old age at Beijing university lecturing Chinese students on why the Western world fell so far from grace...

Mein GOTT!

I am not ruling out the possibility of divine intervention, the western world was saved before against the huns, now we need something to save it from itself...

Petr
01-07-2010, 11:47 AM
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/jan/10010507.html

Study: Young Children Who Are Spanked Are Happier and More Successful as Teenagers

By Thaddeus M. Baklinski

GRAND RAPIDS, Michigan, January 5, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A US-based study suggests that spanking isn't harmful for children and, in fact, states that children who had been physically disciplined when they were young, between the ages of 2 and 6, grew up to be happier and more successful, performed better at school as teenagers and were more likely to do volunteer work and to want to go to university, than those who had never been spanked.

The study, conducted under the auspices of the Portraits of American Life Study (PALS) {http://pals.nd.edu/} by Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of Psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, found there was a lack of evidence to prove that spanking harmed children, and that spanking used judiciously as the normal consequence for bad behavior is beneficial to children.

"The claims that are made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data," Gunnoe said.

"I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool - you just don't use it for all your jobs," she added.

Professor Gunnoe interviewed 2,600 teenagers about being spanked. She found that when participants' answers were compared with their behavior, such as academic success, optimism about the future, antisocial behavior, violence and bouts of depression, those who had been physically disciplined only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures.

Those who had been spanked between seven and eleven exhibited more negative behavior but were still more likely to be academically successful.

In cases where physical discipline continued beyond the age of 12, or in those who had never received corporal punishment, the children were found to perform more poorly in the indicators that were taken into consideration. Dr. Gunnoe found that almost a quarter of the teens in the study reported they were never spanked.

The American College of Pediatricians (ACP) states that disciplinary spanking by parents can be effective when properly used. "It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child's behavior," says the organization's position statement. "Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan."

According to the ACP, effective discipline has three key components: a loving, supportive relationship between parent and child; use of positive reinforcement when children behave well; and, use of punishment when children misbehave.

Many parents who are fearful of using spanking as punishment claim that spanking teaches physically aggressive behavior which the child will imitate.

Aric Sigman, a psychologist and author of "The Spoilt Generation: Why Restoring Authority will Make our Children and Society Happier," commented on the results of Professor Gunnoe's research.

"The idea that smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetishised view of what punishment is for most parents," he told the UK Daily Mail.

"If it's done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be taught to distinguish this from a punch in the face."

Columnist
01-07-2010, 01:29 PM
All age groups have gotten their own share of modern corruption. Today's youths all too often seem to love that gilded cage of theirs. And many of those who have aborted most of their potential offspring will probably get poetic justice when their only child will euthanize them in the end.

You cannot deny that in modern world, elderly people in general are treated with the sort of disrespect that would have shocked our ancestors (both Christian and pagan) and that still shocks members of such "youthful" cultures you mention, like the Muslims. One Christian missionary wrote that Arabs are in "white-hot rage" when they see how disrespectfully some Westerners treat their elders.


Petr
Poetic justice indeed. Nevertheless, young Muslims have no qualms about robbing and beating up elderly Westerners.

Kodos
01-07-2010, 01:53 PM
You cannot deny that in modern world, elderly people in general are treated with the sort of disrespect that would have shocked our ancestors (both Christian and pagan) and that still shocks members of such "youthful" cultures you mention

Masses of elderly people are a modern phenomenom though.

Jake Featherston
01-07-2010, 07:55 PM
How often are parents mocked in old photos for their ridiculous 70s (or xxxx year) clothes?

My father, circa 1976:

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2696/82/118/1613411731/n1613411731_126684_4623734.jpg

Thomas777
01-07-2010, 08:01 PM
...

This seems anecdotally true. The people I grew up with who are incorrigibly screwed up as adults are the ones who either had sadistic fathers or absent ones.