China map lays claim to Americas

[Felix the Cat]

China map lays claim to Americas (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4609074.stm)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/world_enl_1137169236/img/1.jpg

A map due to be unveiled in Beijing and London next week may lend weight to a theory a Chinese admiral discovered America before Christopher Columbus.

The map, which shows North and South America, apparently states that it is a 1763 copy of another map made in 1418.

If true, it could imply Chinese mariners discovered and mapped America decades before Columbus' 1492 arrival.

The map, which is being dated to check it was made in 1763, faces a lot of scepticism from experts.

Chinese characters written beside the map say it was drawn by Mo Yi Tong and copied from a map made in the 16th year of the Emperor Yongle, or 1418.

It clearly shows Africa and Australia.

The British Isles, however, are not marked.

Controversial claim

The map was bought for about $500 from a Shanghai dealer in 2001 by a Chinese lawyer and collector, Liu Gang.

According to the Economist magazine, Mr Liu only became aware of the map's potential significance after he read a book by British author Gavin Menzies.

The book, 1421: The Year China discovered the World, made the controversial claim that a Chinese admiral and eunuch, Zheng He, sailed around the world and discovered America on the way.

Zheng He, a Muslim mariner and explorer, is widely thought to have sailed around South East Asia and India, but the claim he visited America is hotly disputed.

The map is now being tested to check the age of its paper and ink, with the results due to be known in February.

Even if it does prove to have been drawn in 1763, sceptics will point out that we still only have the mapmaker's word that he copied if from a 1418 map, rather than from a more recent one.

[Fade the Butcher]

The book, 1421: The Year China discovered the World, made the controversial claim that a Chinese admiral and eunuch, Zheng He, sailed around the world and discovered America on the way. This book has been harshly criticized in reviews. I wouldn't take its claims that seriously. The Chinese sailed to East Africa, but I seriously doubt they made it to the Americas, still less to the Atlantic.

[Jonathan]

Sure didn't the Vikings beat them anyway :D

[Fade the Butcher]

Yes. They were already in North America by the tenth century.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Norsemen pwn g00ks.

[Fade the Butcher]

Norsemen pwn g00ks.What did you do to Stan, Landser?

[Ambrosio Spinola]

This follows much the same line of ancient Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, Templars and what not reaching America too before Columbus. Personally I would not absolutely doubt that some Roman or Carthaginian vessel might have reached the new world and for that matter a chinese vessel. The point here is what those nations made of it. Most likely either not believed, dumped due to the harsh and long voyage, etc...

As for that map I call BS

[Felix the Cat]

Some intriguing details here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_america#Phoenicians.2C_Greek_and_Romans)

The Atlantic currents would naturally tend to push ships across the Atlantic to the Caribbean and South America, so it's very likely that Mediterranean sailors reached America in ancient times

The interesting question is whether any ever got back

[Ambrosio Spinola]

The interesting question is whether any ever got back

In almost 1000 years of Phoenician to late Roman naval activity I would guess there must have been some. Another matter is what did they report themselves or the importance given to such a "discovery".

[Jonathan]

This follows much the same line of ancient Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, Templars and what not reaching America too before Columbus.
While we're at it, I might add that the Welsh have a myth of some monk who found land across the Atlantic. And in Ireland there is the legend of St. Brendan who also found America(interestingly, a medieval Arabic map shows a large island to the west of Europe called "Brendan's Island"). And isn't there genetic evidence in native-American Indians which shows that some Europeans must have landed there in the Stone Age?

[Felix the Cat]

Stone Age Columbus (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2322)

[Fade the Butcher]

Shane,

Didn't the Irish colonize Iceland before the Vikings?

[Jonathan]

Shane,

Didn't the Irish colonize Iceland before the Vikings?

I'm not sure if I'd use the term "colonized". Certainly the Irish had been to Iceland and the Faroe Islands before the Vikings. Early Irish monasticism was originally bases on strict hermitage, so the very first Irish Christians wandered all over. One group(they might have been part of the order of the "Céile Dé", I'm not 100% sure off hand) landed on an Island in the north where "the sun never set for days on end" and it was so bright when it should have been night time that the monks could "pick the nits off their shirts". Little more than a few isolated monasteries were set up in Iceland. The Irish influence on the Icelandic Vikings was [supposedly]considerable(their nominclature, their dialect, art, etc.).

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Are there ruins of those pre Norse Irish Iceland monasteries? I had always thought that what there was on Iceland Irish was brought as slaves on board Viking long boats.

[Fade the Butcher]

Irish slaves were taken to Iceland. They were sold in slave markets in the east too.

[Jonathan]

Are there ruins of those pre Norse Irish Iceland monasteries?
I'm not sure. I do know that most Monasteries were built of wood at that time(which would make it less likely that they will be found).

I had always thought that what there was on Iceland Irish was brought as slaves on board Viking long boats.
No, there were certainly monks there before the Vikings(the Vikings confirmed this themselves if I'm not mistaken). There were, of course, many Irish slaves(and Irish slave traders) who ended up in Iceland as well. If you ever come across the Saga's like "Aud the deeply wealthy" they are littered with references to the trade between Ireland, Man, the Hebridies, Orkney, and Iceland.

[Jonathan]

Irish slaves were taken to Iceland. They were sold in slave markets in the east too.
Where in the east - Byzantium?(I'm not denying it, I'm just interested).

[Fade the Butcher]

Where in the east - Byzantium?(I'm not denying it, I'm just interested).They were sold to Muslim traders who took them to the Abbasid Caliphate. I once did some research into the Viking slave trade. I will try to find the source for you.

[Sulla the Dictator]

In almost 1000 years of Phoenician to late Roman naval activity I would guess there must have been some. Another matter is what did they report themselves or the importance given to such a "discovery".

What Roman ship would have had the stores for what would have been an accidental discovery of America?

[Ambrosio Spinola]

What Roman ship would have had the stores for what would have been an accidental discovery of America?

I´m sure you are aware that Romans along their history all the way to the late Empire had other types of vessels besides the Trireme type. Business was conducted all the way to India and China and not always by road. Without a shread of real evidence I would without doubt put my hand into fire and say there had to be in 1000 years of naval activity in the west some lost vessel that might have reached the new world and perhaps even returned.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I´m sure you are aware that Romans along their history all the way to the late Empire had other types of vessels besides the Trireme type. Business was conducted all the way to India and China and not always by road. Without a shread of real evidence I would without doubt put my hand into fire and say there had to be in 1000 years of naval activity in the west some lost vessel that might have reached the new world and perhaps even returned.

What I mean is that no Classical European ship would have carried the stores necessary for reaching the Americas, even by accident. And while I'm familiar with naval trips to India (Though not to China), these were done by sticking to the shore...at the very least, periodically. Going to shore for resupply makes things a bit easier.

I find trans-Atlantic travel for Roman or Greek vessels to be unlikely.

[Felix the Cat]

What about the Phoenicians?

Herodotus (http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/hist01.htm) -
Libya is washed on all sides by the sea except where it joins Asia, as was first demonstrated, so far as our knowledge goes, by the Egyptian king Necho, who, after calling off the construction of the canal between the Nile and the Arabian gulf, sent out a fleet manned by a Phoenician crew with orders to sail west about and return to Egypt and the Mediterranean by way of the Straits of Gibraltar. The Phoenicians sailed from the Arabian gulf into the southern ocean, and every autumn put in at some convenient spot on the Libyan coast, sowed a patch of ground, and waited for next year's harvest. Then, having got in their grain, they put to sea again, and after two full years rounded the Pillars of Heracles in the course of the third, and returned to Egypt. These men made a statement which I do not myself believe, though others may, to the effect that as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya, they had the sun on their right - to northward of them. This is how Libya was first discovered by sea.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

So Roman vessels had no stores for such a trip yet they brought tonns upon tonns of grain from Egypt on ships that managed even to bring huge stone obelisks across half the Mediterranean. The average cargo hold of one of the smaller types (such as the below) could easily carry 300 tonns. I would say they had the means to make it.

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/images/mRoman4.jpg

[Sulla the Dictator]

So Roman vessels had no stores for such a trip yet they brought tonns upon tonns of grain from Egypt on ships that managed even to bring huge stone obelisks across half the Mediterranean. The average cargo hold of one of the smaller types (such as the below) could easily carry 300 tonns. I would say they had the means to make it.

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/images/mRoman4.jpg

Right, but as you know THOSE cargo ships aren't designed for Atlantic travel.

And of course, a grain ship ferrying food from Egypt to Rome is going to have a hard time accidentally leaving the Pillars of Hercules. :p

[Felix the Cat]

Going without food for a week or two, while unpleasant, would not be necessarily fatal to otherwise heathly men

Much more serious would be the shortage of water

[The Retard]

1421's website claims Europeans used Chinese maps to discover America.
http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/content.asp?EvidenceID=9

They have some other articles about DNA evidence(?) Anyone have anything to say about that?

Because some South Americans do look asiatic to me.

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/3181/brazilamazontribes3we.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Right, but as you know THOSE cargo ships aren't designed for Atlantic travel.

And of course, a grain ship ferrying food from Egypt to Rome is going to have a hard time accidentally leaving the Pillars of Hercules. :p

LOL....Awww..now you are just "copping out" here Sulla. I did NOT say there should have been some sort of regular voyages to the Americas but to claim that it would just not be possible to reach a Caribean island with one of those is just being silly. Like there are no storms in the Mediterranean or good weather on the Atlantic.

[Kodos]

LOL....Awww..now you are just "copping out" here Sulla. I did NOT say there should have been some sort of regular voyages to the Americas but to claim that it would just not be possible to reach a Caribean island with one of those is just being silly. Like there are no storms in the Mediterranean or good weather on the Atlantic.

Roman ships were loathe to leave site of land... the Romans were terrified of the ocean not curious about it.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Oh man...Weikel, read the posts...I never said there was some sort of trade route or even interest in what was beyond the Ocean. I just believe that in 1000 years of naval activity in the Mediterranean there could well have been a roman, phoenician, carthaginian or Etruscan vessel that might have reached those shores to never return or even make it back. Those vessels (the big merchant ones) could well have withstood the stress under good conditions and I bet there might have been some in 1000 years.

Btw...Romans DID cross the Med without having constinuosly to hug the coast. Egypt grain ships made the Alexandria-Miseno-Ostia in one jump. Roman vessels have been found even on the Atlantic Canary islands. C´mon...1000 years is a LONG time for some freak accident like this not to happen.

[Felix the Cat]

Roman Trade With the Canary Islands (http://www.archaeology.org/9705/newsbriefs/canaries.html) (1997)

Excavations on the island of Lanzarote in the Canary Islands have turned up the first securely dated evidence of Roman trade with the archipelago. Dug by a team under Pablo Atoche Peña of the Universidad de Las Palmas de Gran Canaria and Juan Ángel Paz Peralta of the Universidad de Zaragoza, Spain, the prehistoric settlement of El Bebedero yielded about 100 Roman potsherds, nine pieces of metal, and one piece of glass. The artifacts were found in strata dated between the first and fourth centuries A.D.

Greek accounts tell of an island beyond the Pillars of Hercules where the Elysian Fields lay. The Greek historian Plutarch (ca. A.D. 46-120) described the islands more accurately, and the Roman poet Lucan (A.D. 39-65) and the Egyptian astronomer and geographer Ptolemy (ca. A.D. 90-168) gave their precise locations. In 1964 a Roman amphora was discovered in waters off Lanzarote, and since then a number of others have been found underwater. All, however, lacked proper context and could not be dated precisely; that they were truly Roman was also questioned because many were similar to amphorae used by the Spanish in the sixteenth century for trade with the Americas. The finds from El Bebedero show that Romans did trade with the Canaries, though there is no evidence of their ever settling there.

Most of the potsherds belong to large amphorae used to carry such commodities as wine, salt fish, and olive oil. Analysis of their clay indicates that the vessels originally came from Campania (a region in central Italy), Baetica (southern Spain), and Tunisia. Atoche Peña and Paz Peralta have suggested, however, that all of them probably arrived in the Canaries via Baetica, a natural stopover on the way from Italy and Tunisia. What they brought to the islands is unknown, but such amphorae were likely used to carry fish from the rich fishing banks nearby to Roman salting plants on the Moroccan coast and thence to Spain.

That all of the amphorae arrived on Lanzarote between the first and fourth centuries A.D. suggests that trade with Rome was largely confined to this period, roughly coinciding with Rome's involvement in northwestern Africa. Nearby Mauretania, now northern Morocco and Algeria, was a client kingdom of Rome beginning ca. 49 B.C., and in A.D. 40 Emperor Claudius divided it into the provinces of Tingitana and Caesariensis. Roman rule of Mauretania extended into the early fifth century, when the Vandal king Gaiseric descended on the area; by 461 Rome had given up claim to the provinces.

[Lenny]

Thor Heyerdahl proved beyond the possibility of dispute that ancient primitive vessels could cross the Atlantic without much trouble. He crossed the Atlantic himself in a replica of an ancient vessel in 1970 using only technology available to the ancients.

He successfully sailed from the Atlantic coast of Morocco to Barbados in this vessel:
http://www.kon-tiki.no/Expeditions/RaSmall.jpg

[Sulla the Dictator]

LOL....Awww..now you are just "copping out" here Sulla.


LOL Have my eyes glazed over with talk of Belgium?


I did NOT say there should have been some sort of regular voyages to the Americas


I'm not arguing that either.


but to claim that it would just not be possible to reach a Caribean island with one of those is just being silly.


What I mean is that its impossible for a grain ship to accidentally reach a Carribean island. :p

Those grain ships were expensive monsters for their age, and while you are correct when you say that they were capable of leaving sight of shore, they were loathe to do so for anything other than a direct jump from their African province to Sicily, or maybe from Egypt to Cyprus to Greece.

From what I remember, all naval travel to Britannia hugged the coast of both Hispania and Gaul as soon as they hit the Atlantic.


Like there are no storms in the Mediterranean or good weather on the Atlantic.

There are storms and good weather on the Sea of Galilee too but I wouldn't take one of those ancient fishing ships onto the Atlantic. :p

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Ha! Sulla has taken down his colors...Victory! :D

You know you have been pwnd :p

[Sulla the Dictator]

Ha! Sulla has taken down his colors...Victory! :D

You know you have been pwnd :p

:confused: