PDA

View Full Version : How sexual revolution makes all male-bonding & friendship seem gay (Julian Lee ping)


Petr
11-01-2007, 01:32 PM
I did not know exactly on what forum to post this...


http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-07-021-f


A Requiem for Friendship

Why Boys Will Not Be Boys & Other Consequences of the Sexual Revolution

by Anthony Esolen


Sam Gamgee has been fool enough to follow his beloved master Frodo into Mordor, the realm of death. To rescue Frodo from the orcs who have taken him captive and who will slay him as soon as he ceases to be of use in finding the Ring, Sam has fought the monstrous spider Shelob, has eluded the pursuit of the orcs, and has dispatched a few of them to their merited deaths.

Finally he finds Frodo in the upper room of a small filthy cell, naked, half-conscious, lying in a heap in a corner. “Frodo! Mr. Frodo, my dear!” he cries. “It’s Sam, I’ve come!” With a bluff tenderness he clasps him to his breast, assuring him that it is really he, Sam, in the flesh.

Still groggy, Frodo can hardly believe it, but he clutches at his friend. It seems to him all the tissue of a dream—that an orc with a whip has turned into Sam—and it is all mixed up with the sound of singing that he thought he heard and tried to answer. “That was me singing,” says Sam, shaking his head and saying that he had all but given up hope of ever finding his friend again. He cradles Frodo’s head, as one would comfort a troubled child.

At that a snigger rises from the audience in the theater. “What, are they gay?”

An ignorant but inevitable response. Shakespeare, or his narrative persona, expressed in his sonnets a passionate love for an unnamed and not too loyal young man, so Shakespeare must have been homosexual—despite the absence of evidence, and despite his persona’s explicit statement in sonnet 20 that the young man’s sexual accoutrements are of no interest (or use) to him whatever.

The bachelor Abe Lincoln long shared a bed with his closest friend, Joshua Speed, and later wrote letters expressing, with what seems a touch of self-deprecating irony, his fear that he would be lonely once Speed had taken a wife. Lincoln therefore must be homosexual. No matter that men (and women too) commonly shared beds, and also commonly spoke of their friendship in strong, earthy language that now embarrasses. The poet Edmund Spenser, celebrator of his own wedding in one of the most brilliant poems in English, used to share a bed with his friend and fellow scholar at Cambridge, Gabriel Harvey. There you go.

“Your love to me was finer than the love of women,” laments David in a public song, when he learns of the death of his friend Jonathan. We know why. The godlike hero Gilgamesh and his friend Enkidu walk hand in hand into the dark forest of Humbaba. No wonder then that at Enkidu’s death Gilgamesh will weep inconsolably, letting his hair grow long, flinging away his royal robes, and leaving the city to wander in the wilderness.


One Tiny Insight

For many years I have smiled as that ballast known as the Academic Left have taken one tiny linguistic insight, that the sounds we use to denote things are usually arbitrary, and have elevated it to the single law of the universe. It was not a terribly great insight, nor was it at all new.

Plato had broached it in the Cratylus, associating it tentatively with sophism, and having Socrates argue, I fear not convincingly, against it. Dante seems to have accepted it: In the Paradiso Adam himself states with shocking matter of fact that even the name for God had already changed before that unpleasantness at the Tower of Babel, implying that no particular human word to denote him takes precedence over any other. Man’s ability to speak, says Adam, is the work of Nature, but as for the actual words we use, they lie within man’s choice:

Before I went to banishment below
“ Yah” was the name on earth for the high Good
that now has clothed me in the robe of joy;

And then they called it “El”—right that they should,
for mortal use is like a branch’s leaves:
where one may fall, another springs to bud.”

Even so, Dante does not assign language to the arbitrary human will alone, but also to Nature, the agent of God’s providence. The medieval dictum nomina sunt consequentia rerum—names are consequent upon the things they name—does not hold true, if man expects the causal link between thing and name to be clear and determined, but does hold true, in the mysterious working out of God’s order. If a leaf cannot fall without the will of God, then neither can the leaf be named; our language assumes its place in the providential chances and changes of time.

Thus Adam’s discussion of linguistic change is preceded by his revelation of how long ago and how many years he lived, and then by his revelation of how long he and Eve managed to enjoy the bliss of Eden before they were cast out forever: six hours, from dawn till noon.

Six hours is not long—and that is part of Dante’s point. Man’s loss of Eden and his consequent aging and death may appear as senseless as the change of a word, arbitrary and fleeting. Yet neither the loss of Eden nor the fall of the word, even of the holy word Yah, escapes the governance of Nature and the wisdom of God.


Arbitrary Words

And that order is what the linguists a sinistra object to. For their hearts lie not with words but with what the apparent arbitrariness of words can achieve, if that arbitrariness is assigned to everything else in human life. Again, they are partly correct. Language is a fit metaphor, or a powerful structuring concept, for our customs. As Dante saw, language is itself a custom.

Thus we have a language for the formal introduction of a stranger: the clipped “How do you do” with a nod and a firm handshake, for American men; the automatic smile, head tilt, “It’s nice to meet you,” and presentation of hand, for American women. We know that a certain style of sign outside of a restaurant means you had better go home and put on a tie (or take it off and leave it in the car). We know that if a grown man and woman are walking hand in hand, they are not brother and sister, though there seems nothing inherently untoward about brothers and sisters holding hands. We know what the teenage boy’s modest crew cut means, when all around him are dyeing their spiked hair grape.

Thus the Left proceed syllogistically. Language is utterly arbitrary. Social customs form a kind of language, and sexual customs form a very powerful language. Therefore social customs are arbitrary, and therefore sexual customs are equally arbitrary.

There is no more reason, essentially, for a man’s choosing a woman as his mate rather than a man, than there was for the Hebrews to name God Yah rather than El. The man may of course want children, and having a woman for a mate would obviously facilitate that desire, but that is as it happens. Sexual difference is no more an essential part of the relations between man and woman, and of a man’s sexual being as a man, than the vowel “ah” is an essential part of the name of God.


A Faulty Premise

Well, the syllogism is faulty: Even its major premise, that language is utterly arbitrary, seems to be contradicted on the level of phonology, or sound, by the human wish to use words that correspond delightfully with the objects they denote. Thus it is hard to imagine a language in which a word like “lalala” means “repulsive” or “muscular” or “impenetrable.”

Nor is language arbitrary on the level of syntax, the ordering of our thoughts by means of words. No language has as its typical sentence pattern Object-Verb-Subject; not one. The human mind does not like to work that way, probably because the human mind recognizes an order in actions, namely that some subject does some verb to some object, and likes its sentences somehow to respect the order.

Nor is it arbitrary in its semantics, the relation of words to meanings. That is because language has that annoying habit of referring to what the typical human being perceives as unitary things belonging to a recognizable kind. The typical human being, in his solid naiveté, believes that words have something or other (perhaps something mysterious or other) to do with things, with nature. No language invents a word to describe the union of the top half of your uncle in Milwaukee with the bottom half of your uncle in Baton Rouge.

But even if it were true that our spoken language were utterly arbitrary, it does not follow that the language of our customs is, or that our sense of good and evil is, or that the idea of human nature is. That is an unwarranted leap from phonology to anthropology to moral philosophy to metaphysics. It is a leap the Left makes precisely to attack the notion of order.

A strange double life they lead: professing fascination with language, yet abandoning any deep study of it; using it instead as a tool for dismantling the idea of natural order, or, since even academics abhor a vacuum, using it as a tool for establishing their own order and imposing it on everyone else. The language war of the early feminists—a war they have won resoundingly, despite the occasional embarrassing rout (anyone remember “waitron”?)—was about the ushering in of a new order, or rather a new and unnatural disorder. They were wrong who thought it was only a silly argument over words.


Pansexual Language

What does all this have to do with sex, or with friendship? A great deal, I am afraid. The pansexualists—they who believe in the libertarian dogma that what two consenting adults do with their privates in private is nobody’s business—understand that the language had to be changed to assist the realization of their dream, and also that the realization of their dream would change the world, because it would change the language for everyone else.

Language is not language if it is not communal; it is a neat trick of political abracadabra to argue for an individual’s right to change the very medium of our thought and our social intercourse. If clothing is optional on a beach, then that is a nude beach. It cannot be a nude beach for some and an ordinary beach for others; to wear clothes at that beach at the very least means something that it had not meant before. If you may paint your house phosphorescent orange and violet, and you persuade a couple of your neighbors to do likewise, you no longer have what anybody would call a historic neighborhood.

If all of Kate’s friends leap into bed with whatever male gives them a hearty dinner at Burger King and a round of miniature golf, and Kate chooses instead to kiss her date once on the cheek and leave him on the porch, she will suggest to everybody that she is a prude. She may be, or may not be; she may be more firmly in the grip of lust than they are, for all we know, and may just detest the boy. But her actions have connotations they did not use to have.

Imagine a world wherein the taboo has been broken and incest is loudly and defiantly celebrated. Your wife’s unmarried brother puts his hand on your daughter’s shoulder. That gesture, once innocent, must now mean something, or at least suggest something. If the uncle were wise and considerate, he would not make it in the first place. You see a father hugging his teenage daughter as she leaves the car to go to school. The possibility flits before your mind. The language has changed, and the individual can do nothing about it.

By now the reader must see the point. I might say that of all human actions there is nothing more powerfully public than what two consenting adults do with their bodies behind (we hope) closed doors. Open homosexuality, loudly and defiantly celebrated, changes the language for everyone. If a man throws his arm around another man’s waist, it is now a sign—whether he is on the political right or the left, whether he believes in biblical proscriptions of homosexuality or not.

If a man cradles the head of his weeping friend, the shadow of suspicion must cross your mind. If a teenage boy is found skinny-dipping with another boy—not five of them, but two—it is the first thing you will think, and you will think it despite the obvious fact that until swim trunks were invented this was exactly how two men or boys would go for a swim.

Because language is communal, the individual can choose to make a sign or not. He cannot determine what the sign is to mean, not to others, not to the one he signals, and not even to himself.


Friendship Without Blood

Friendship and the signs upon which it must subsist are in a bad way. I will focus on the friendships of men, since that is what I know about; many comparable things might be said about the friendships of women. We still have the word “friendship,” and we still have something of the reality, but it is distant, dilute, bloodless. For modern American men, friendship is no longer forged in the heat of battle, or in the dust of the plains as they drive their herds across half a continent, or in the choking air of a coalmine, or even in the cigar smoke of a debating club.

That is partly because our lives, for better and for worse, no longer involve the risk and the sweat that was the cement of deep friendship. No man will help hew the oaks for our cabin, because we no longer live in cabins. No man will stand by as we jump overboard to set the trawling net, because we have no boat and set no net; we live too comfortably for that. Under such fortunate circumstances, we need all the more the camaraderie and intellectual risk of the club.

But gentlemen’s clubs have vanished or have been sued out of existence. (The Citadel is not the Citadel, as the woman lawyer who sued it to death herself admitted, unwittingly and with amazing intellectual amnesia; on Monday arguing that her client wanted the same experience the young men then enjoyed, and after her victory on Tuesday crowing that a student’s experience at the Citadel would now be forever changed.) More than ever do men need to come together to eat and drink and argue and think, because more than ever their work separates them from each other; but now they are virtually forbidden to do so.

It is but more of the devastation wrought by the sexual revolution. That we fail to see it as such is no surprise: Naturally, when we think of that recrudescence of paganism, we think first of its damage to the family and to relations between men and women. We think of divorce, pornography, unwed motherhood, abortion, and suicidally falling birthrates. But the sexual revolution has also nearly killed male friendship as devoted to anything beyond drinking and watching sports; and the homosexual movement, a logically inevitable result of forty years of heterosexual promiscuity and feminist folly, bids fair to finish it off and nail the coffin shut.

What is more, those who will suffer most from this movement are precisely those whom our society, stupidly considering them little more than pests or dolts, has ignored. I mean boys.


Safely Shared Beds

How is this so? Return to the example of Lincoln. His age was surely not more tolerant of homosexuality or of sexual deviancy generally than is ours: Accounts of the Civil War show young men brought to the brink of blackest despair by their inability to break the habit of self-abuse. How, then, if deviancy was such a reproach, could Lincoln risk sharing a bed with a man and having the fact be publicly known? But that is precisely the point. Only in such a case is the bed-sharing possible.

I am sorry to have to use strong language, but only when sodomy is treated as a matter of course for everyone (as in the institutionalized buggery of boys and young men in ancient Sparta) or when it is met with such opprobrium that nobody would assume that a good man would engage in it, could Lincoln and his friend share that bed without suffering ridicule. The stigma against sodomy cleared away ample space for an emotionally powerful friendship that did not involve sexual intercourse, exactly as the stigma against incest allows for the physical and emotional freedom of a family.

In Japan, families bathe together, and it is considered a mark of the highest honor—the deepest trust—to be invited, as an outsider, to join them. This custom is only made possible by the assumption that any sexual dalliance among family members, including anyone invited to “belong” to the family, is absolutely out of the question.

The converse is also true. If your society depends upon such emotionally powerful friendships—if the fellow feeling of comrades in arms is necessary for your survival—then you can protect the opportunity for such friendships in only two ways. You may go the route of Sparta, or you may demand on pain of expulsion from the group that such friendships will not be sexualized. Essentially you must do for all-male groups exactly what a husband and wife must do with regard to other members of the opposite sex. Adulterers and sodomites there will be—but they must be called so, that we may have chaste spouses and bosom friends.

How does this latest twist of the sexual revolution hurt boys in particular? Some will say that it leaves them more vulnerable to be preyed upon by older men, and I have no doubt that this is true, given the psychological springs of male homosexuality, given the historical examples of ancient Greece and samurai Japan (among others), and given the terrible fact that many homosexual men were themselves abused as boys.

But I do not wish to overemphasize this; certainly most homosexual men abide by the law. I mean something quite different.


Men’s Signs

The prominence of male homosexuality changes the language for teenage boys. It is absurd and cruel to say that the boy can ignore it. Even if he would, his classmates will not let him. All boys need to prove that they are not failures. They need to prove that they are on the way to becoming men—that they are not going to relapse into the need to be protected by, and therefore identified with, their mothers.

Societies used to provide them with clear and public ways to do this. The Plains Indians would insert hooks into the flesh of their thirteen-year-old braves and hang them in the sun by those hooks, for hours—a test of endurance and courage. At his bar-mitzvah the Jewish boy reads from the Holy Torah and announces, publicly, that on this day he has become a man.

In our carelessness we have taken such signs away from boys and left them to fend for themselves. Two choices remain: The boys must live without public recognition of their manhood and without their own certainty of it, or they must invent their own rituals and signs.

And here the sexual revolution comes to peddle its poison. The single incontrovertible sign that the boy can now seize on is that he has “done it” with a girl, and the earlier and more regularly and publicly he does it, the safer and surer he will feel. If sex is easy to find, and if (as mothers of good-looking teenage boys will testify) the girls themselves seek it out, then you must have a pressing and publicly recognized excuse for not having sex. To avoid scandal—think of it!—you must be protected by your being a linebacker on the football team, or by being too homely for any girl to be interested in you.

A boy who does not agree to a girl’s demand for sex will be tagged with homosexuality. She will slander him herself. Ask teenagers; they will tell you. But even a linebacker known as a rake will not dare to venture into the dangerous territory of too-close association with the wrong sort. He, too, will avoid the close male friendship. The popular and athletic boys will thus have their tickets punched, while the others live under suspicion, alienated from the other boys, from the girls, and from one another.

This must happen. In large part, it has already happened. But we must try to remember when it was not so, if we are going to gauge what we have lost.

So far, I have lamented the attenuation of male friendships, which suffer under a terrible pincers attack: The libertinism of our day thrusts boys and girls together long before they are intellectually and emotionally ready for it, and at the same time the defiant promotion of homosexuality makes the natural and once powerful friendships among boys virtually impossible.

Anyone can count up the resulting cases of venereal disease and teen pregnancies. A few social analysts of more penetrating insight can note what is unquantifiable, the despair among our young people, the dullness in the eye, the feeling that people are never to be trusted, that to fall in love is to be a contemptible fool.


Audacious Men

Yet the most daunting task of all is to mark the good things that this sexual precocity has smothered in the very birth. It is one thing to say that it has made friendships among boys more distant and difficult, and to suppose that that is a bad thing for the emotional lives of those boys. It is quite another—and it takes someone willing to see through our jaded dalliance with androgyny—to see that the loss of such friendships stunts the boys intellectually and goes a long way towards depriving everybody of the benefits that such intellectual development used to provide.

That is, after all, one of the great things that male friendships are for. Consider how strong and audacious are the emotions of the young man. Suppose these are not directed towards sexual liaisons with young women, towards playing house. They do not therefore cease to exist; they must find some object. In the past that object would be the world and the group’s conquest of it.

The boys might get together to build a car from scratch. They might set up a series of telegraph connections. They might pitch themselves into learning everything they could about aircraft carriers and bombers. They might form a club to read Nietzsche, or to read the Scriptures, or to read both—audacity at this age can be wildly inconsistent. They might attach themselves to an acknowledged teacher, as did the young men of Athens who followed the chaste Socrates, or, dare I say, the young men of Palestine who followed Jesus. They might form guilds to ensure that the men they paid to teach them actually followed through on their end of the bargain—and thus would they create the medieval university. They might invent jazz music. They might rob banks.

They might do a thousand things fascinatingly creative and dangerously destructive, but one thing they would not do. They would not, as our boys do now, stagnate. They would be alive.

Edison formed such attachments—as early as age thirteen he had sought and found the men who could teach him all they knew about the telegraph. Louis Agassiz and his comrades defied death in mapping and studying glaciers. George Gershwin one day left one group of buddies playing stickball in the streets to go to the house of the boy who would be his lifelong friend and associate, Maxie Rosenzweig (later Max Rosen), from whom he learned the wonders of music. Lewis and Tolkien and their friends formed the Inklings and set their stamp on literary Christianity for a century.

Read the correspondence of Louis Pasteur, and you will come away thinking that the entire edifice of chemical research in France and Germany was built upon male friendship, the bonds of comrades going forth to battle. The language of these letters, to and from dozens of fellow scientists, is powerful and unashamedly personal. “I am touched by your acknowledgment of my deep and sincere affection for you,” writes the elder chemist Jean-Jacque Biot to Pasteur,

and I thank you for it. But whilst keeping your attachment for me as I preserve mine for you, let me for the future rejoice in it in the secret recesses of my heart and of yours. The world is jealous of friendships however disinterested, and my affection for you is such that I wish people to feel that they honor themselves by appreciating you, rather than that they should know that you love me and that I love you.

What man has the space to feel anything comparable now, or the language to express it?


Failed Boys

Our boys are failing in school. Has it occurred to no one that we have checked them at every turn, perversely insisting that they must not form brotherhoods, that they must not identify their manhood with practical and intellectual skills that transform the world, and that they must not ever have the opportunity, apart from girls, to attach themselves in friendship to men who could teach them?

For good reason boys used to build tree houses and hang signs barring girls. They know, if only instinctively, that the fire of the friendship cannot subsist otherwise. If the company of girls is made possible, then the company of girls becomes a necessity, if only to avoid having to explain to others and to oneself why one would ever prefer the company of one’s own sex. Thus what is perfectly natural and healthy, indeed very much needed, is cast as irrational and bigoted, or dubious and weak; and thus some boys will cobble together their own brotherhoods that eschew tenderness altogether—criminal brotherhoods that land them in prison. This is all right by us, it seems.

And what about the emotional damage? We learn from researchers who are willing to be derided by the sexual politicians that one of the causes of male homosexuality is precisely the disappointed desire, in certain boys, to form strong and physically expressed friendships with other boys. In our careless cruelty we have failed to protect all those whose feelings, as teenagers, are confused or ambiguous. If a teenage boy knows that nothing can happen between him and another boy, and if he knows that everybody else, including the other boy, knows it too, that knowledge must provide him the assurance that he can draw close to his friend.

He can “know” that it means only friendship, even if in another and fouler world it might mean more. He can rest easy with himself, because the meaning of his gestures and actions depends not on his confused and turbulent feelings, but upon an objective linguistic fact. Such a young man can thus negotiate his way through troubled times, fulfilling his need—and, if he has had a cruel father, it may be an aching need—for friendship, without corrupting his sexuality and without rejecting the possibility that he will become a true father and husband.

I do not know what agonies of loneliness and insecurity Abraham Lincoln, who did indeed have a cold father, suffered. But I assert that his lifeline for not becoming homosexual was the very same friendship that our pansexualists say was proof that he was. In the name of protecting homosexuals, we ignore the feelings of boys and snatch from them their dwindling opportunities to forge just such friendships whereof homosexual relations are a delusive mimicry.


Neither Frodo Nor David

On three great bonds of love do all cultures depend: the love between man and woman in marriage; the love between a mother and her child; and the camaraderie among men, a bond that used to be strong enough to move mountains. The first two have suffered greatly; the third has almost ceased to exist.

Think about that friendship, the next time you see the perpetual adolescents in feather boas as they march down Main Street, making their sexual proclivities known to everybody whether everybody cares or not. With every chanted slogan and every blaring sign, they crowd out the words of friendship, they appropriate the healthy gestures of love between man and man. Confess—has it not left you uneasy even to read the words of that last sentence?

What do the paraders achieve, with their public promotion of homosexuality? They come out of the closet, and hustle a lot of good and natural feelings back in. They indulge in garrulity, and consequently tie the tongues and chill the hearts of men, who can no longer feel what they ought, or speak what they feel.

Reader, the next time you feel moved to pity the delicate man in the workstation near you, give a thought also to an adolescent somewhere, one among uncounted millions, a kid with acne maybe, a kid with an idea or a love, who needs a friend. Know then that your tolerance for the flambeau, which is little more than a self-congratulating cowardice, or your easy and poorly considered approval of the shy workmate’s request that he be allowed to “marry” his partner, means that the unseen boy will not find that friend, and that the idea and the love will die.

No doubt about this: If you are a modern man, a half-man, many such ideas and loves have already died in you. For as much as you can admire them wistfully, from a half-understanding distance, you can be neither Frodo nor Sam, nor the man who created them. You dare not follow Agassiz, alone, to the Arctic. You will not weep for Jonathan. You once were acquainted with Enkidu, but that was all. Do not even mention John the Apostle.

Friendship, rest in peace.

...

Anthony Esolen is Professor of English at Providence College in Providence, Rhode Island. He has translated Tasso's Gerusalemme liberata (Johns Hopkins Press) and Dante's Divine Comedy (Random House). He is a senior editor of Touchstone.

“A Requiem for Friendship” first appeared in the September, 2005 issue of Touchstone.

il ragno
11-01-2007, 01:49 PM
Except for the LOTR stuff - I wouldn't mind a brief Tolkien time-out of at least a few years - this is an important article that the MSM is no longer capable of comfortably carrying in its pages, even were it dumbed down to 250 words, because too many of the New Mainstream Holies are besieged in it.

Think of that the next time you ponder Buchanan's idea of Culture Wars: the mainstream position - which is to say the bland, middle-of-the-road default setting - on these and most other matters is now, routinely, the spineless championing of rank perversion. Thus platonic love of every kind - the honest and unsullied mutual devotion of close friends - becomes something both vile and timid at the same time: faggotry afraid to show itself.

And the murmur in the air growing louder and uglier is the sound of the elite of Sodom gathering around Lot's house, demanding Innocence be thrown to the wolves, and Corruption celebrated.

Ahknaton
11-01-2007, 02:10 PM
And that order is what the linguists a sinistra object to. For their hearts lie not with words but with what the apparent arbitrariness of words can achieve, if that arbitrariness is assigned to everything else in human life. Again, they are partly correct. Language is a fit metaphor, or a powerful structuring concept, for our customs. As Dante saw, language is itself a custom.

Thus the Left proceed syllogistically. Language is utterly arbitrary. Social customs form a kind of language, and sexual customs form a very powerful language. Therefore social customs are arbitrary, and therefore sexual customs are equally arbitrary.
Well, the syllogism is faulty: Even its major premise, that language is utterly arbitrary, seems to be contradicted on the level of phonology, or sound, by the human wish to use words that correspond delightfully with the objects they denote. Thus it is hard to imagine a language in which a word like “lalala” means “repulsive” or “muscular” or “impenetrable.”

Nor is language arbitrary on the level of syntax, the ordering of our thoughts by means of words. No language has as its typical sentence pattern Object-Verb-Subject; not one. The human mind does not like to work that way, probably because the human mind recognizes an order in actions, namely that some subject does some verb to some object, and likes its sentences somehow to respect the order.

Nor is it arbitrary in its semantics, the relation of words to meanings. That is because language has that annoying habit of referring to what the typical human being perceives as unitary things belonging to a recognizable kind. The typical human being, in his solid naiveté, believes that words have something or other (perhaps something mysterious or other) to do with things, with nature. No language invents a word to describe the union of the top half of your uncle in Milwaukee with the bottom half of your uncle in Baton Rouge.

A strange double life they lead: professing fascination with language, yet abandoning any deep study of it; using it instead as a tool for dismantling the idea of natural order, or, since even academics abhor a vacuum, using it as a tool for establishing their own order and imposing it on everyone else. The language war of the early feminists—a war they have won resoundingly, despite the occasional embarrassing rout (anyone remember “waitron”?)—was about the ushering in of a new order, or rather a new and unnatural disorder. They were wrong who thought it was only a silly argument over words.
These are brilliant observations. Denial of absolutes and the relativization of everything goes hand in hand with the desacralization of nature and the assault on traditional values. And yes, it DOES stem from beliefs and use regarding language. That is the CRUX of it, despite its appearance as a triviality or a red herring.

I might start a thread in the Ziggurat about this, as I can feel some mystical wind-baggery coming on and I don't want to stray too far off topic here.

P.S. I know what you mean il ragno, but I think LOTR is an especially good example here because it touches on both major themes in the article: language (Tolkein was a major linguistics buff and his books were full of made-up languages) and male friendship.

Basil Fawlty
11-01-2007, 02:20 PM
Confucius observed that the evils of the world are rooted in the misuse of words.

Odysseus
11-01-2007, 02:20 PM
Why Boys Will Not Be Boys & Other Consequences of the Sexual Revolution

So you wanna get gay with dudes and have no one call it gay?

il ragno
11-01-2007, 02:24 PM
I know what you mean il ragno, but I think LOTR is an especially good example here because it touches on both major themes in the article: language (Tolkein was a major linguistics buff and his books were full of made-up languages) and male friendship.

No, you're right of course, but an equally good case can be made by using the well-known image of Laurel and Hardy sleeping in the same bed (one of many innocent-of-homosexuality examples of bygone pop culture now ripe for "reinterpretation" by deviants).

harjit
11-01-2007, 03:09 PM
No, you're right of course, but an equally good case can be made by using the well-known image of Laurel and Hardy sleeping in the same bed (one of many innocent-of-homosexuality examples of bygone pop culture now ripe for "reinterpretation" by deviants).
I too hate that tendency so many people have to put anything and everything into a sexual context.

Such commentary or jokes are usually uninteresting. Sex is sex, it's an important part of life but there is not ALL that much about it that it should pervade popular consciousness to the extent that it does. What you mentioned, about reading homosexuality into everything, is a subset of this.

AugustSledge
11-01-2007, 06:12 PM
"They might invent jazz music. They might rob banks"

There has never been a frontier discovered by women.

Its fascinating how despite the so called failure of young men in education its still the young men who are the creators of any and all frontiers.
One frontier I can personaly relate to is the computer industry and in the early days of internet and personal computers it was solely men who braved this frontier and worked relentlessly towards great technological visions. Of course the dot com bubble did eventually burst but the after effect of "internet for everyone" still had a lasting effects on society. Sadly internet porn was one of them, but there has been many good effects of it also.

But as the article mentions today this "frontierpreneurship" is perhaps more stunted than in previous days.

On a side note one thing that amazes me is how Gentlemens clubs have been outlawed. How was this possible to do on a legal basis? Its

Keystone
11-01-2007, 10:39 PM
Excellent article Petr. Thanks for posting it.

Jimbo Gomez
11-02-2007, 03:37 PM
That's what you get in a society that sexualizes everything. I prefer male over female company, and I'm pretty sure most men do too. Say that out loud today when certain types hear it and they call you a fag.

Odysseus
11-02-2007, 04:11 PM
Neg repped twice for my above statement? Jeez no one gets my joke I'm gonna run off and cry. T.T

Angry Citizen
11-02-2007, 05:02 PM
Excellent article Petr.

I'm sorry I called you a homo.

Ironically I once told a male that I loved him, and meant it in a platonic sense, but by then it was too late.

I was tarred and feathered.

Angry Citizen
11-02-2007, 05:07 PM
One thing we can do, to combat the evil perversion of launguage by sodomites and their enablers, is to stop referring to sodomites by the self-chosen psycho-linguistic cloak they scurry around under.

I am referring of course, to the word "gay".

If we want to make any progress in this war of words for the control of the minds and futures of the people of our society, then we would be well served by taking back control of that one word.

That's why I will continue to use the word "gay" to describe my mood, because in addition to liking women, I also like rainbows, truth, and being happy.

Angry Citizen
11-02-2007, 05:10 PM
On a side note one thing that amazes me is how Gentlemens clubs have been outlawed. How was this possible to do on a legal basis?

Yes, whatever happened to "Freedom of Association"?

We need more lawyers (hire or become them) to sue and take back our Constitutional Rights.

Count Eustace II
11-02-2007, 05:56 PM
The decrease of strong platonic male bonding is because women demand all the attention of their men because the media told them they were right to demand that of their men.

Strong male bonding at all levels of society leads to getting problems solved and truth and justice to prevail. When that's corrupted and deracinated by many various forces, you have what you have right now.

Petr
11-07-2007, 11:44 AM
the homosexual movement, a logically inevitable result of forty years of heterosexual promiscuity and feminist folly,
This detail here deserves attention.

Many hetero people who supported the sexual revolution back in the 1950s and 1960s would have been shocked and repulsed if they had known that sodomites (or feminists for that matter) would come out of their closets as brazenly as they eventually did. They had wanted only a nice, moderate sexual revolution, just like Russian liberals had only wanted a nice, moderate Kerensky revolution! When they saw that the movement was getting beyond what they had wanted, it was too late for most of them to turn back.

Selfish hetero lechers (who often considered themselves as epitomes of masculine virtues) thought that they could abolish only part of the sexual moral code! It's classic slippery-slope stuff - once you hand over your little finger to the devil he's going to rip your whole arm off.


Larry Auster recently made some comments about how sexual anarchy eventually paralyzes the will of the nation on all issues - how can you preach for a return to virtues that made the Western civilization possible while accepting the fundamental legitimacy of sexual revolution? (Protesting only about its "extremist" forms, like buggery, bestiality or whatnot).

Well, I do regularly read articles in the Daily Mail, as it has so many articles on immigration and Islam and so on, and on every page of the Mail website there is a prominent set of highlighted articles, running down the whole page, called Femail, every one of which is about, basically, extra marital sexual affairs of celebrities and their attendant phenomena. And what's in the Mail is probably quite sedate compared to the News of the World. It is as though triumphant sleaze had become the common culture of Britain.

As I've written before, it's not just sexual freedom that indicates the downfall of society, but, even more, the normalization of sexual freedom, the removal of any disapproval regarding it. Since sex is such a basic aspect of life, and since sexual morality is so fundamental to society, to approve of all sexual behavior (except for the behavior of the woman who went to bed with her sperm donor!) is to make it impossible to have negative judgments about anything. Think about today's college students with their super-promiscuity and their corresponding lack of respect for anything, except politically correct authority. Such a way of life cauterizes people, makes it impossible for them to believe in anything higher, except for some imagined unity of all the liberated human selves in the whole world.
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009060.html


Petr

Draugen
11-08-2007, 11:50 AM
I was just reminded of how males in the country - of the preceding generation and before that is, for television has imposed that even rurals behave like cosmopolitans, today - have no qualms about kissing each other in the cheek and give each other strong hugs. I'm aware that it is kind of a Mediterranean tradition, but in any case, it is almost unthinkable for the new generation of city dwellers to behave in the same way, and that is certainly not caused by a scruple of manliness, especially when compared with the rough men of the country; they are afraid of appearing gay.

I remember having visited the country and having that idea flash through my head each time one of my uncles came to give me one vigorous hug. I was aware of how inappropriate it was to even think about that in the context of such a mirthfull reunion with simple folk, but that's just the way I was programmed.

Thoth
11-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Well, this is a good battle to fight if you are a right wigger. They were the ones during the 60's, remember -- of course you don't -- who were against the war, in favor of in loco parentis on campus, because blowing the head off everything they stood for was the program -- to do to them what they were and are still doing to youth because it is sexy to see guys in uniform die, I guess. Protecting you and dads body. fuck that shit. We went over it all point by point back then. I guess the next generation has to do it all again since the right wing pathological liars and psychotic killers with repressed queer lust for Arab asses has filled everyone with so much gynxiety they have to explain what they are about.


Sex in the air is the orgone energy ocean you breathe in and out in. It is not just another thing in life. You feel it in your tits when you post right (my take on sugarones -- I know what he means).

I will not talk about sex with anyone right wing unless they have read and more or less accepted Wilhelm Reich ("Salvation through sex" -- that's a first step.) Their entire being is bound up with hatred of women, children, helplessness -- impotence: in themselves, compensated for by violence toward those that can't understand into which they project their little boy or girl side that was emotionally abused.

Anti-homosexuality is in the OT scriptures, and the Enochian writings (2Enoch chap 10). (In the latter case, explicitly because it leads to abominating children.) It is to be assumed, on good ground, I think, that it was a human problem long since resolved where advanced civilized ideas took hold. But some males seem born more effeminate than others. Whatever one thinks of it, one should read Capar Schmidt's l984 artlce on AIDS as a conversion reaction of shame -- a public shaming ritual when the late 70's wide eyed Ones started turning against the freedom of the 60's. This was the psychohistorical turning point toward Jokenman -- Reagan's anti-sexualism. Everything since then (27 years now) has been about queers and the Jews, for whose sake Iran has to die. Right wingers, queers and Z-Jews (who know how to use both, and all around them, to stir up hate, torture, lying, killing).

Ahknaton
11-08-2007, 01:31 PM
Thoth, I have to disagree with you here. The issue is about the abuse of language as a means of wielding power - the gay rights stuff is secondary (and unimportant in my opinion). Like Humpty Dumpty said:

When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master. That's all."

This is the attitude - redefine words to mean what they didn't mean before, and recontextualise imagery so that it means what it didn't mean originally. Thus a major in "queer studies" can argue with a straight face (no pun intended) that Lewis Carroll was a pedophile - see Dizzee's comment in the Alice thread - and twosomes like Laurel and Hardy and Frodo and Sam suddenly become *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink* how's-your-father? Do you remember the first chapter of Moby Dick, where Ishmael shares a bed with Queequeg, and jokes about hugging him in a "matrimonial sort of style"? Do you honestly think that Melville meant to give that scene the sort of connotations that it has today? I don't think it's a case of the right being paranoid about the left "inserting" (*ahem*) meaning where there previously was none, because that's what they ARE doing! The metaphor is entirely appropriate.

It's not just words like "gay", it's the wholesale mutilation of the English language that goes with straight-jacket of PC speech: "herstory", "waitron", "wymmyn" and so on. It's just irritating. Not offensive, but irritating. Language should be respected, not redefined and mangled wholesale to suit whatever political agenda is soup of the day. How are we going to read works written in the past and make sense of them if the meanings of the words have all changed?

Edit: I should add that "left" and "right" in this context don't really have the same meaning as they do in the neo-conservative (we knew them as "neo-liberals" down here in the 80s, did you know that?) Arabs-attacking-us-from-behind context. But then I guess I'm playing Humpty Dumpty a bit here too. I'm really talking about "words mean whatever we say they mean" (with the original meaning still latent - permitting the manipulation) versus "words have a meaning".

Petr
11-08-2007, 06:49 PM
Wikipedia seems to have an article that roughly corresponds to the topic of this thread, even though written with some amount of fag (I refuse to use the word "gay") slant:


Romantic friendship

The term romantic friendship refers to a very close but non-sexual relationship between friends, often involving a degree of physical closeness beyond that common in modern Western societies, for example holding hands, cuddling, sharing a bed, as well as open expressions of love for one another.

Same-sex romantic friendship was considered common and unremarkable in the West, and was distinguished from then-taboo homosexual relationships, up until the second half of the 19th century,[1] but after that time its open expression generally became much rarer as physical intimacy between non-sexual partners came to be regarded with anxiety.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_friendship


See also:

"Abraham Rihbany (The Syrian Christ, 65), a native of the East early last century, bore with some patience the misinterpretations of modern Westerners (he named Robert Ingersoll particularly) who read the Bible through their eyes and tastes and missed certain points about what was being said and done. The particular instance of John 21:20 represents a custom "in perfect harmony with Syrian customs. How often have I seen men friends in such an attitude. There is not the slightest infringement of the rules of propriety; the act was as natural to us all as shaking hands. The practice is especially indulged in when intimate friends are about to part from one another, as on the eve of a journey, or when about the face a dangerous undertaking. Then they sit with their heads leaning against each other, or the one's head resting upon the other's shoulder or breast." By the same token, Easterners will use "terms of unbounded intimacy and unrestrained affection" to one another: "my soul," "my eyes," "my heart." Paul's holy kiss (Rom. 16:16, etc) is no more of a homosexual exchange."

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gayjesus.html


Petr

Julian Curtis Lee
11-08-2007, 07:13 PM
So you wanna get gay with dudes and have no one call it gay?
This ignorant statement exemplifies the very problem that the article discusses.

Respect, affection, and enjoyment of male company is not "gay." In fact, it's the natural state of men who are sexually wholesome and farthest from "gay."

My opinion is that men who get queasy about male affection -- that natural male affection of friendship that is native to men in the state of boyhood -- are queasy because they are oversexed and heading into a homosexual state.

In other words, a guy who thinks wholesome male affection is "getting gay" and can't see it non-sexually for what it is, is going gay himself. Men only lose their appreciation of male friendship when they become sex addicts. Over sexualized, they then turn away from any close relationships with males in avoidance of the homosexual feelings they sense could occur in their over-sexualized state. Basically, male relationships, and male power, break down because of immorality and male sex addiction.
Neg repped twice for my above statement? Jeez no one gets my joke I'm gonna run off and cry. T.T
Yes, and I just neg repped you with this: "Sorry that you are turning into a homosexual, ignoramus."

Thoth
11-08-2007, 08:40 PM
First, I wanted to respond positively to the thread title. But without allowing it to be pinned on the 60's sexual revolution. This was a good thing, I think we are saying. New attitudes toward what it was all about merged with drugs, rock 'n roll and anti-war protest. All combined to form a milieu in which homosexuality, per se, was a distinctly secondary and minor issue. It was libido itself slipping out of Big Daddy's control that provoked Right Wing reaction in America, and I suppose everywhere. (Cohn Benditt in France.)

In addition to getting rocked and socked by the gone-wacky milieu, there was The Pill, loss of nuclear superiority, and demotion of Father to family adjunct. The
old social/cultural boundaries of masculinity itself were under assault. :) They have been trying to get them back ever since (still fighting off the Feminazis, girliemen, Democrats, Islamo-fascists jihadists and Arabs, the Sheikier the better). Remember Tucker Carlson's bow tie? The Reagan Republican faux malehood wave was a Triumphal Return for vengeance, on the wicked 60's. At the deep group Oedipal level, it has all been a reaction of the Older Psychoclass (heirs of the Patriarchy) against the advanced (hence, Liberal) Younger Psychoclass. There is a perpetual tension between them in all generations (psychologically defined through the 20-25 year war-as-cleansing-rebirth" cycles), but the "generation gap" between WWII Fathers (later immortalized) and their "baby boomer" brat children who grew up wanting to follow Charlie Manson, plus all the other assaults on traditional male perogatives mentioned, "warped out" this natural tension and transformed built-in sibling rivalry into a perpetual replay of Males Who Will Kick Ass for Daddy vs. other males, who are assumed by the former to be Males Who Luv Mommy, and whose ass they damn well intend to kick (draft, put in harms way, otherwise expose to intimidation and abuse, all to make 'em a better man, like naming a boy Sue). Unless you don't let them. When "them" has morphed into Bush Sharkstein.

I hold that this is all one continuous psychohistorical line, traceable through real-time sign-use -- "the Record", pared to its group-fantasy (unconscious imagination of what 'our' group is doing) pegs. (Reagan's reversal of the tone of 'liberalism', for instance -- agreeing with/insisting on your point about changing the reality by changing the words and pictures used for communicating about it.)
THE ENTIRE THING IS ABOUT MALE SEXUALITY AS BOUND UP WITH FATHER-SON RELATIONS ON DIFFERENT LEVELS distributed and ramified through all social relations. (I don't expect anyone to accept this, or care. At bottom, I doubt if there is much we disagree over, and am definitely not looking for it.) (Remember Freud said history is basically the story of brothers getting together to kill the father then sharing the blood guilt.)

I want to use this psychohistorical perspective to approach the question(s) of words and meanings. I have agreed with your major point, as I got it, that queer studies can queer relationships, just by existing. I always enjoyed being around men, from sweaty football locker rooms to hunting jackrabbits with 22's from car windows -- to teachers, as blessed with best was I -- homosexuality really never came up, and that was through the 50's, after which it came to mean the something, else, which changed over time, even after the 80's same thing. There was no natural speaking about sex in the classrooms (it took that snotty french looking philo prof to even get the requisite words out at Wisconsin mid-50's); and little of religion or politics actually happening. Part of the resentment I picked up, after going through the "who in hell cares anyway?" period, after the HIV advent brought by Reagan, was against the flouting. I admit to being deeply revolted by men kissing. I don't go nuts seeing it on occassion, but on a regular basis and shown as if hip to kids, nope. (I don't think I'm addressing anything you might hold Ahk.)

They started preying on the sexuality of kids in the South, taking advantage of their native idealism, will to please to bring, and community fun together singin' "old time religion". (Daddy sang bass, Momma sang tenor, ..) This was the male baby boomer generation trying to square themselves with their inner sense of sinning against the Father (going against the Father is provable the hardest psychological task there is, for males who complete the cycle of individualtion; but sometimes the old fucker is wrong, and will use your* desire to please the one in your head to gain benefits for himself. Which is why The Father has to be separated from The Male, archetypically -- neither Freid nor Jung completed their psychology of the father-son complex, as they got involved with each other over it as siblings competing for a NEW "HIMHOOD". That. also, is on-going.

It took Protestant aligned with Jew to cut that particular bond in the 60's (Between WWII Fathers and Baby Boomer sons). These combined essence-forces were later called "secularism" by the right-wing reaction. I called it New Americanism, post liberal-conservative. Still do. It demolished social and cultural constructions based on repressed sexuality. It is the ever-resuming challenge of those still capable of normal male sexual function to arrive at the advanced New Himhood without going over to Bush warriors. That is the cut off line between this, the OD forum and a few others and the Freepers, as I see it. (Then when '04 came around -- many held their ground, but right wing anti-Sheehan Contra women started posting up.)

I a very aware of many thing you brought up not touched on by this reply. I mainly wanted to clarify why I cannot go along with any return to an unreconstruted pre-60's position on male sexuality. So, allowing for these exceptions and clarifications, I continue to insist it was the right-wing anti-sexual bent, represented by the Older Psychoclass determined to pay Righteous Respect to the Father -- first in their heads, feeling sinful for their rebellious thoughts of the 60's, then for Everyone In the World to live up to, as 9/11/01 become a repeat* of 12/7/41. (The Jews switched sides and went with the R-W Catholics: "mugged by reality" that neocon Kristol punk
said. "Neo-liberals"? - no, didn't kow. Totally fits the pattern, doesn't it.)

Everything I am about traces just to this Oedipal matrix of the '60's, through wimpy Bush I, when Limbaugh rose to fight off the feminazis; to O.J., Black Knight, slitting the throat of Blonde whore ruler, somehow putting things right. ...

Thoth
11-09-2007, 01:17 AM
Second, having read the article under this title, with a great deal of relish and appreciation, I might add, the following points of criticism are needed at each of the 7 strata of discourse it intersects. It predicates across the gamut of sign uses, mostly for objects in the Upper Triad (words for fantasy; stories), thus is a performance of the corresponding order:


7 -as theological performance

- The following is a double self-refutation:

-There is no more reason, essentially, for a man’s choosing a woman as his mate rather than a man, than there was for the Hebrews to name God Yah rather than El. The man may of course want children, and having a woman for a mate would obviously facilitate that desire, but that is as it happens. Sexual difference is no more an essential part of the relations between man and woman, and of a man’s sexual being as a man (A), than the vowel “ah” is an essential part of the name of God(B).

If this is not pure gibberish, it appears to be a confused expression of a 60's-originating idea of sexual language as a psychological construct. (B). The sounds of the flame letter Hebrew alphabet were part of the "name of God", which didn't communicate to its original users what "name of" communicates today (was a way of summoning, etc.). (A) is apparently supposed to be refuted by whatever flumbunster point (B) was supposed to make, which is entirely unclear, since the Hebrews didn't "choose" either the names "Yah" or "EL", so it remains sounding absurd.

-The remarks on what might be loosely taken as philosophy of language. Language is variously predicated on as: a metaphor, communal, a habit, a concept, ripped off by the Left for its own agenda without exploring its depths, like he does... never as a epistemic condition, which requires sentences, truth and falsehood, subjects and predicates (if its truths are to have application anywhere outside language), implication and rules of inference. That is, the language of science. Systematic elaboration of the conditions of such a language that would be (a) consistent; (b) adequate (for reconstructing mathematics and the formal part of theories; (c) thorough-going (as in Kant's Third Analogy of Experience: applicaple to whateve can be part of experience). The elaboration of the formal requirements of this are grounded in the history of philosophy in the pre-Socratic concept of Being, as a term for universal totality.

6 -as philosophical performance
Esolen's maunderings about whether what he calls "language" is "arbitrary" or not, where intelligible at all (uncited "Leftist" doctrine he is refuting here) seems to confuse the syntax and semantics of a constructed language (the language of science) with that of ordinary --natural spoken -- language. Wherever actual tokens are referred to, Ex. "The Bible", "Yah", etc., natural, not artificial language is intended. The language of science has no proper names (though it has individual reference designators, e.g., 'GMT'), and no pronouns except "it" (the variable 'x'). Transcribing the cognitive content of a given segment of discourse ("language" in his sense, particularized) into a true or false logical format is a learned skill of a high intellectual order. (Makes it "left" already in some schemes.) One wouldn't want to bother Esolen, who knows what he means if not quite how to mean it.

5 -as existential performance

It shows what a sensitized male Right Wing 60's hater can put together, after stealing what the Left created. See 3 below.

4 -as a moral performance

A challenge to Kant's thesis that a good will is the highest moral value. This is good will twisted into Right Wing negation of the positive. I accept the argument that male friendship is disfigured when "Are they queer?" is the automatic pre-programed response to every show of male affection. I hate that. And I blame "movement" homosexuals for foisting such mentality off on us. I love youse guys asses on this fuckin' board (some of them). Who TF wants to have to say such shit? So I blame whatever pushed that in my/our face to have to say. But this goes back to right wing gaynxiety, I hold, not to the "sexual revolution". Given twisted sign uses, acts motivated by good will can lead Fox & friend actors straight to hell.

3 -as judgment about material reality (the shared world of 3 dimensions)

The titled content doesn't seem directly related to material, or economic reality but there is a connection through the politics of its use.

There is a litmus paper test available for correctness on this today. Does this entity (the author, and the effect reading him has on the flow of subjective process) associate or disassociate itself from GW Bush and the Zionists politics of Death? What with their pre-emptive strikes, and "us against them" ultimatums vs. "Islamofascists", no neutral or common ground of friendship can exist here. Therefore, by existential performance as anti-Left (5), when GW Bush is Right,
as a material performance this is pro-Death.


2 -as phenomenal performance (piece of literature)

Not bad. At times, cogent. (Not: with the syllogisms already)

1. -as neoro-psychical transfer.

Got it off his chest.

These don't need adding up now. What he says that is positive doesn't need this Right - Left frame, though the way it has worked out historically I can see where he gets it. I am actually more sympathetic with what he is saying than with orgone box hippies, but somebody has to got to hold out for the de facto historical diagonal between Ideal Language philosophy and Actual Psychohistory.

Vindex
11-09-2007, 02:12 AM
People have been making a big deal out of nothing when it comes to sexual orientation and it is causing a lot of crazy reactionary behaviour and attitudes.

Anyway with both sexes the majority hang with those of their fellow sex when it comes to being friends and save sexual relationships for those who are not.

Also I think males bond better between each other then females do. The idea of Brotherhood among loyal and honourable friends is just a fact.

Odysseus
11-09-2007, 09:52 PM
This ignorant statement exemplifies the very problem that the article discusses.

Respect, affection, and enjoyment of male company is not "gay." In fact, it's the natural state of men who are sexually wholesome and farthest from "gay."

And I just repped you saying: I'm sorry you can't take a joke old faggot.

Or something to that effect. Goddamn. I just drop one joke and you guys are bitching and moaning like its the end of the fucking world. You're pathetic. Just goes to show how many fanatics we have here that they can't take a simple goddamn joke.

Julian Curtis Lee
11-09-2007, 10:07 PM
Your juvenile humor and your "gay problem" are a distraction here. And snot-nosed pre-homosexuals like you should not be allowed to post here. They break down natural male bonding which is extremely important to the moral order. They shouldn't be allowed in the military either.

You are among the worst type of youngsters, and you deserve a bloody nose everywhere you go.

Odysseus
11-09-2007, 10:37 PM
Your juvenile humor and your "gay problem" are a distraction here.

I'm not the one with a gay problem. You all seem to be gay problems... as well as a distinct lack of anything approaching a sense of humor. Which means you're probably as boring irl as your posts.

And snot-nosed pre-homosexuals like you should not be allowed to post here.

I don't have any snot in my nose currently. In fact my nose has been a bit dry the last couple of days which is causing some discomfort on my part.

They break down natural male bonding which is extremely important to the moral order. They shouldn't be allowed in the military either.

Hey if you wanna get gay with dudes and call it bonding I'm not judging you man.

AugustSledge
11-09-2007, 10:53 PM
Hey if you wanna get gay with dudes and call it bonding I'm not judging you man.

You wont win any wars (or anything at all) if you project your own twisted sexuality onto normal social interactions. If you think men working together to achieve goals is gay then you need to wise up.
Next time your house is on fire try step up to to the firefighters, risking their lives, and tell them how gay they are.

Dodge Viper
11-09-2007, 11:04 PM
Mentious is the least "gay" person I have met.

He is a good friend of mine, and I know him personally. Associating him with "gayness" simply because he cares about the survival of decent men, and male friendship is bang out of order. Its the likes of you, with your casual and misguided comments, that plants the seed of homosexual accusation amongst sincere men who value male friendship.

Its usually the men who yell "Gay!!" when faced with discussion about male bonding to be the most inclined to faggotry.

Odysseus
11-09-2007, 11:05 PM
You wont win any wars (or anything at all) if you project your own twisted sexuality onto normal social interactions.

Do you think I'm gay? That's a first for me.

If you think men working together to achieve goals is gay then you need to wise up.
Next time your house is on fire try step up to to the firefighters, risking their lives, and tell them how gay they are.

No you seem to be confused. The matter at hand is that somehow because I don't tell dudes I love them that our friendship is diminished. My position is that avoiding telling men you love them far predates the 60's. And if all gays were gone (which is a wholly unrealistic if not completely ludicrous idea) I would still avoid saying I love you to my friends. I don't even say I love you to my dad. And even if he weren't a dick a still wouldn't.

Mentious is the least gayest person I have met.

Have you ever met him in person? My suspicion is no, so how can you verify this?

He is a good friend of mine, and I know him personally. Associating him with gayness simply because he cares about the survival of decent men, and male friendship is bang out of order. Its the likes of you, with your casual and misguided comments, that plants the seed of homosexual accusation amongst innocent and sincere men who value male friendship.

Okay. Magical ain't it.

Its usually the men who yell "Gay!!" when faced with discussion about male bonding to be the most inclined to faggotry.

Interesting that this is something I've said for quite awhile, and received a lot of shit for btw. Also if you'll look, the first one to accuse anyone of homosexuality was JL not me. So...

Julian Curtis Lee
11-09-2007, 11:24 PM
Also if you'll look, the first one to accuse anyone of homosexuality was JL not me. So...
No queer, if they look, they'll see that you accused every single man -- every single man in the world -- of being a homosexual simply if he values close male friendship. This was your original defamation of good men, and I always defend good men. So you're one of the Phora's queers from this day forward. I have it on good authority anyway.
Have you ever met him in person? My suspicion is no, so how can you verify this?
He just got through saying that he had, Brainless Wonder:
Mentious is the least "gay" person I have met.
But nobody here knows you. And you use a cartoon female as your avatar.
Okay. Magical ain't it.
No, there is not much magical about you at all, twit.
You wont win any wars (or anything at all) if you project your own twisted sexuality onto normal social interactions. If you think men working together to achieve goals is gay then you need to wise up.
Next time your house is on fire try step up to to the firefighters, risking their lives, and tell them how gay they are.
Exactly. It's a sign of a sex addict, a pre-homosexual sex addict, when he gets queasy and silly over closeness in men. When we are boys, in a completely non-sexual state, we appreciate other boys most. They are most like us, and we feel natural attraction and affection for them as human beings. Sex addicts lose this natural, pure, appreciation of other men. They pull away from closeness to other men then, because of their hyper-sexualized state and their need to control any homosexual feelings. All men who mock close natural friendship as "gay" should be soundly mocked back, as incipient gays themselves. I consider these type of men to be profoundly destructive to male cohesion, which in turn destroys social order. I say: Give them no quarter. Let them clean themselves up until they are capable of close male friendship again.

Dodge Viper
11-09-2007, 11:34 PM
Have you ever met him in person? My suspicion is no, so how can you verify this?
Yes I have.

Odysseus
11-10-2007, 12:04 AM
No queer, if they look, they'll see that you accused every single man -- every single man in the world -- of being a homosexual simply because he values close male friendship.

So every man in the world tells his male friends he loves them? Hell I don't even tell my female friends I love them.

This was your original defamation of good men, and I always defend good men. So you're one of the Phora's queers from this day forward. I have it on good authority anyway.

Really? I'd be interested what this good authority is.

He just got through saying that he had, Brainless Wonder:

No he said he knew you personally. That doesn't mean anything with the poor use of terms on the internets.

But nobody here knows you. And you use a cartoon female as your avatar.

Yeah and this changes what?

No, there is not much magical about you at all, twit.

Pathetic. Seriously the weakest insult I've heard in at least month or two.

(flames deleted)

Julian Curtis Lee
11-10-2007, 12:40 AM
Again, sorry you don't have any male friends because you get homosexual ideas at the prospect of wholesome male friendship. But now you're engaging in slander of good men.

As I said, homosexuals and anonymous chicken-shit hissers like you should not be allowed to post at the Phora. Especially, they should not be throw around gross moral slander. You have not only slandered all men who make friends, but now you have grossly slandered me and one of my friends. I am going to report you to the moderators.

Moderators: This anonymous chicken-shit slanderer queasy about male friendships deserves the Big Sting.

Dodge Viper
11-10-2007, 12:54 AM
Whatever you say fag. You seem to be of the opinion I care what you and your fag buttbuddies do.

I just love flame threads.
Somebody ban this piece of shit, otherwise this post will be my last.

Oblisk
11-10-2007, 12:56 AM
Your juvenile humor and your "gay problem" are a distraction here. And snot-nosed pre-homosexuals like you should not be allowed to post here. They break down natural male bonding which is extremely important to the moral order. They shouldn't be allowed in the military either.

Odysseus is a liberal, he believes in filth like sexual freedom and the like. Also, this is part of the High-Brow forum, jokes should be kept at a minimum.

Julian Curtis Lee
11-10-2007, 01:07 AM
Somebody ban this piece of shit, otherwise this post will be my last.
Same here. This hissing incipient homosexual slandering dirt-mouthed punk "Odysseus" doesn't qualify for freedom of speech. I think I'll take a six month vacation. Long-time posters, and decent men, shouldn't have to consort with lowlifes.

Ahknaton
11-10-2007, 01:33 AM
I've deleted his flames directed at you. His post has been reported and will be reviewed by the mods.

Petr
11-10-2007, 01:37 AM
I also support banning Odysseus. To hell with tolerance.


Petr

Kim Jong Tha Illest
11-10-2007, 03:08 AM
I think Odysseus is an idiot, and should probably be banned on general principle, but I am also sick and tired of Nick and Julian threatening to leave the board whenever they want someone they don't like ridden out of town on a rail.

Julian Curtis Lee
11-10-2007, 03:30 AM
I think Odysseus is an idiot, and should probably be banned on general principle, but I am also sick and tired of Nick and Julian threatening to leave the board whenever they want someone they don't like ridden out of town on a rail.
Some inaccuracy there: Nick has never threatened to leave. But the words of the Un-Odysseus-like Oddity were vile. Nick is a young and wholesome Englishman (not to mention a REALLY good guitarist) and doesn't deserve that.

As for me, only twice in two years, always for the same cause. In one instance I was talked out of it. In the other, I did leave for a spell. And both times it was the same reason: High moral slander ("You're gay!") of the same kind Oddity is indulging in. No offense meant to our excellent Admin, Moderators, or the formidable mind DangerBot but a man has to have standards.

General Principles = Good.

Kim Jong Tha Illest
11-10-2007, 03:41 AM
Some inaccuracy there: Nick has never threatened to leave. But the words of the Un-Odysseus-like Oddity were vile. So now he's gone.

As for me, only twice in two years. In one of those two I was talked out of it. In the other, I did leave for a spell.

See you in six months. I won't accept that kind of slander. I'll miss you DangerBot, and others. You are a good mind.

Apologies to nick. I thought I had remembered another incident, but i was getting him confused with someone else. Take care.

Kim Jong Tha Illest
11-10-2007, 04:00 AM
-_- *sigh* Interesting statement coming from you.

I love how a short simple obvious joke has been blown up into some sort of attack on morality. And that somehow I hate men but am a homosexual all at once... which I think is just special. So if you're all done crying over a joke I'd like to get back to the lulz.

This is the lyceum, jackoff. It is not 'about the lulz', and by admitting your intent to kick up a 'flame thread' here you are essentially proclaiming to all and sundry that you wish to be banned.


Says the anti-internationalist communist. Well they would have if JL hadn't taken it upon himself to let his lack of a sense of humor go wild.
I am a hedonistic, and I'm proud of that. That is in no way contrary to communism. Thus I follow Marx and Lenin. Me a liberal? Hardly.

One is not a 'hedonistic', one is a 'hedonist'. Nor were Marx or Lenin in favor of sexual libertinage. A pinafore fetish probably would have made either of them vomit.

Helios Panoptes
11-10-2007, 04:10 AM
The Odysseus problem has been dealt with, but for future reference, there is no need to inform the forum what you sent someone via a rep message, Julian. Bringing that stuff onto the board entirely defeats the purpose of the reputation system.

Ahknaton
11-10-2007, 04:24 AM
I will not talk about sex with anyone right wing unless they have read and more or less accepted Wilhelm Reich ("Salvation through sex" -- that's a first step.)
I've read Reich's Mass Psychology of Fascism and thoroughly enjoyed it, but I have a few issues with his sexual theories.

Firstly, one of his basic premises is that man is sexually repressed, and that these suppressed sexual urges are sublimated into violence or other masculine displays - witness the sexually charged goose-stepping of the Nazis, or the high level of violence amongst Muslims. Bardamu made a very good comment about the Finnish sCHOol shooter "fucking is classmates with bullets", and I've heard suicide bombings, kamikaze deaths and self-immolation compared to violent orgiastic sex-explosions. So far so plausible, but then how do you explain the fact that Western societies have become so sexually liberated, but this manipulation of people's sexual hang-ups by those in power is still so viable, e.g. the fear of Arabs "penetrating" our borders/portals? I think there is more to it than that, and sexual liberation possibly creates as many exploitable hang-ups amongst an oversexed population as it removes.

Many young males today are obsessed with getting laid and proving their manhood by banging as many women as possible, even more than just 10 or 20 years ago. Most probably guys have always been like that, but in a more sexually conservative society where all the other guys aren't getting much either the competition (and resultant insecurity) isn't so intense. This makes them easy marks for any ideology or psychosis-as-a-belief-system that promises them some macho kudos by association that they'd otherwise have to get through sexual conquest. Everywhere you look in the media today it's sex sex sex. Get paid, get laid and you've got it made in the shade. Isn't this a means of control? Perhaps Reich was at best half right.

il ragno
11-10-2007, 04:29 AM
Is "Nick" Dodge Viper? If so, I'm very sorry to see him go.

If it's any consolation, Nick, I have yet to find a message board free of wankers and trolls. They're the price of popularity, alas. I hope you'll reconsider and return - Julian, too.

Helios Panoptes
11-10-2007, 04:33 AM
Is "Nick" Dodge Viper? If so, I'm very sorry to see him go.

If it's any consolation, Nick, I have yet to find a message board free of wankers and trolls. They're the price of popularity, alas. I hope you'll reconsider and return - Julian, too.

The person he wanted banned is banned, so I don't see why he would leave.

Julian Curtis Lee
11-10-2007, 05:33 AM
Yes, that's so.

I have strong feelings about the subject of this thread. I really, really deplore it when simple male friendship is defamed and perverted by other males for no good reason except that fellow offloading his own Freaky Feelings onto the situation. It hurts good men and it makes us weak.

Right down to the playground, I think it has occurred over and over again that bullies, bad eggs, have persecuted perfectly fine and natural boys, boys with maybe some traits or interests that dolts might classify as feminine. Then it happens that through that very persecution; and that false identity imposed on them by the bully, some of these boys end up taking a homosexual path. This to me is a huge, huge spiritual crime. Some of you have noticed on this board that I really deplore "gay calling." It's a potent factor in chilling male-male friendship and fruitful male relationships.

You'll notice that women still supportively connect together with no queasiness about it. In my town there are all kinds of women's groups, women's choirs, "women's drumming circles" and "women's support groups." We even have a "Woman's Center" but nobody notices the absence of a "Men's Center." Through their solidarity today, and a corresponding dysfunction of male friendship, women are getting unholy power at every level of society. Our fathers and grandfathers were not profoundly alienated from their fellows. They had lodges, men's clubs, networks, and secret male societies. And there was no "fag calling" in them. And that was why men ruled where men should rule. It's my view that males who are quick to do "gay calling" (as Odysseus managed to do here both widely and generally) are not fit for the company of men.

Women actually talk about "male bonding" now with sarcasm, as if it's a joke and doesn't exist. This is because, more and more, it doesn't exist. But it's also because they fear it, and know that it represents the end of their power drunk. Male fellowship and close male friendship were the basis of both male power social order up to recent times. And male relationships are the web that create both protection and progress in human society -- whether for winning a war, bringing forth a harvest, keeping out invaders, or creating common values for the raising of children.

The reason thousands of females screamed over John, Paul, George, and Ringo was this: They saw intrepid men in harmony. And women's genes tell them that "men in harmony" mean: 1) We'll have a successful hunt, 2) We'll get through the winter, 3) We'll repel the enemy, and 4) We can make babies.

"Men in harmony" is the root of male power, and also the basis of real female fulfillment and felicity, IMO. Thus, I despise "gay callers" like Odysseus. The stakes here are very high and the conversation is no place for snot nosed offerings. It's no joke to accuse a man of being homosexual. Odysseus' PM to me: "Sorry you can't take a joke you old faggot." This kind of thing is not a joke, and it tells us all we need to know about this kid. May the Oddity -- and all like him -- slip into a black hole.

Dodge Viper
11-10-2007, 05:38 AM
Is "Nick" Dodge Viper? If so, I'm very sorry to see him go.

If it's any consolation, Nick, I have yet to find a message board free of wankers and trolls. They're the price of popularity, alas. I hope you'll reconsider and return - Julian, too.
Thanks for the kind words ragno. Im back, He has recieved a week ban, so I can continue to post. It may seem petty to put pressure on mods to impose a ban; but thats how I felt at the time, and I couldn't go back on my word.

Oblisk
11-10-2007, 04:25 PM
He should be given another chance, if he promises to follow the rules accordingly next time.