How do Holocaust revisionists explain pictures like the following

[Ixtab]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/medicalexp.jpg

I'm not criticising revisionism here, just curious.

[Atlas]

Revisionism and negationism are just completly different.

I don't deny the existence of Buchenwald, Dachau, Treblinka, Auschwitz..., the massacre of Beni-Yar, all of this is well documented with pics and even videos but I just don't believe the "6 millions" thing. We will probably never really know how many Jews were executed, but 6 millions, which mean 1 million a year during the war, is unreasonable...

[Ixtab]

I have spoken with many revisionists who believe that all of the Jews died from malnutrition (which became widespread in the concentration camps after German supply lines were cut by the Allies) and typhus, or received the death penalty for sabotage. Such revisionists, holding these beliefs, do necessarily deny the things depicted in photographs such as the above.

[Fade the Butcher]

I have seen pics like that before at Andersonville.

[Count Eustace II]

It's amazing that many Holocaust disciples forget the truism "to the victors, go the spoils". How many concentration camps were liberated by the Soviet Union and would those Soviets (who had a large percentage of Jews in their government), who virulently hated the Germans, possibly stage some photos and films greatly exaggerating the atrocities in those camps?? Is it within the realm of possibilities that the victors of war would exact as much recompense from their enemies as they possibly could??

There wouldn't be any bias in the Soviets agenda would there?? In the Jews agenda? What sounds better for the victors of WWII: 250,000 Jews died in the course of a world war or 6 million innocent Jews were gassed to death by barbaric Germans??

[Ixtab]

If we allow Holocaust Revisionism to be put into the hands of crackpot conspiracy theory nuts like Count Eustace II, it's doomed. I say this as a wholehearted supporter of Holocaust Revisionism.

[Jimbo Gomez]

If we allow Holocaust Revisionism to be put into the hands of crackpot conspiracy theory nuts like Count Eustace II, it's doomed. I say this as a wholehearted supporter of Holocaust Revisionism.

LMFAO

Oh man that's brutal. :D

[cerberus]

I have spoken with many revisionists who believe that all of the Jews died from malnutrition (which became widespread in the concentration camps after German supply lines were cut by the Allies) and typhus, or received the death penalty for sabotage. Such revisionists, holding these beliefs, do necessarily deny the things depicted in photographs such as the above.
Funny if the supply lines to camps wee so completely destroyed and things were so bad , why no photographs of starving guards or civilians ?

Kramer looked prety well fed to me.

It's amazing that many Holocaust disciples forget the truism "to the victors, go the spoils". How many concentration camps were liberated by the Soviet Union and would those Soviets (who had a large percentage of Jews in their government), who virulently hated the Germans, possibly stage some photos and films greatly exaggerating the atrocities in those camps?? Is it within the realm of possibilities that the victors of war would exact as much recompense from their enemies as they possibly could??

There wouldn't be any bias in the Soviets agenda would there?? In the Jews agenda? What sounds better for the victors of WWII: 250,000 Jews died in the course of a world war or 6 million innocent Jews were gassed to death by barbaric Germans??

The above is not even sensible.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I have seen pics like that before at Andersonville.

The Germans had access to more food supply after having stolen reserves from all over Europe than the Confederates had access to, even if the Confederates had prepared for the Civil War for 20 years.

[Fade the Butcher]

The Germans had access to more food supply after having stolen reserves from all over Europe than the Confederates had access to, even if the Confederates had prepared for the Civil War for 20 years.That reminds me.

[Ixtab]

Funny if the supply lines to camps wee so completely destroyed and things were so bad , why no photographs of starving guards or civilians ?You'd expect those interred in prisons and concentration camps to get the worst of it. German civilians would be the first priority. There was some malnutrition among German civilians, though. I believe the average German consumed 600 calories a day in those years.

[Sulla the Dictator]

You'd expect those interred in prisons and concentration camps to get the worst of it. German civilians would be the first priority.


Then why were Western Allied prisioners relatively well cared for?

[Ixtab]

All I know is that not all of the people who suffered from malnutrition were Jews.

[Sulla the Dictator]

All I know is that not all of the people who suffered from malnutrition were Jews.

Right. Gypsies, Soviet POWs, Communists, Homosexuals, Poles, and regime enemies also suffered.

Holocaust victims abound.

[Ixtab]

Right. Gypsies, Soviet POWs, Communists, Homosexuals, Poles, and regime enemies also suffered.
When towards the end of the war, German supply lines were cut, and undernourishment became common, food was probably diverted from the least desirable individuals, especially those in concentration camps, as any self-respecting nation would have done in such conditions. Typhus was also common. Men who conducted autopsies concluded that most of the deaths in concentration camps were caused by typhus. Those who died were cremated probably to prevent the spread of diseases. This theory accounts for almost everything regarding "the Holocaust".

[Crowley]

The whole war was an atrocity, a war crime, a crime against humanity. After the war's conclusion, thousands, if not tens of thousands, of German soldiers disappeared into the soviet union to be worked to death in camps. What about them? The reason Jewish suffering is made so much of is because Jews control the mass media and are obsessive compulsive neurotics to start with. But to answer the question, those pictures looks like images of sick people to me. Are they supposed to be gas or crematory victims? :o

[Sulla the Dictator]

When towards the end of the war, German supply lines were cut, and undernourishment became common, food was probably diverted from the least desirable individuals, especially those in concentration camps, as any self-respecting nation would have done in such conditions.


But people wern't just dying 'towards the end of the war', they were dying in the middle of it and the early part of it as well. As to German supply lines being cut, how? They had looted the Ukraine, the Baltic states, France, and Poland of food reserves for German consumption.


Typhus was also common.


It sure was. Other things that were common were gas, bullets, beatings, starvation, and working people to death.


Men who conducted autopsies concluded that most of the deaths in concentration camps were caused by typhus.


I'd like to see the collective autopsy data in the form of a summarized report.


Those who died were cremated probably to prevent the spread of diseases.


So they wanted to prevent the spread of diseases by burning the bodies.....while they sent more people to the camp?

Is that the story we're going with?


This theory accounts for almost everything regarding "the Holocaust".

No, but this theory is amusing.

[Ambrosio Spinola]

Then why were Western Allied prisioners relatively well cared for?

I believe I told you already about the ordeal my grandfather went throught at those Rhine Camps, right? I guess he was an evil revisionist too lying to rebuild the fourth Reich.:rolleyes:

[il ragno]

Atrocity photos, tales, rumors, etc are common and extremely effective propaganda tools. WW1 abounded with lurid (and wholly bogus) anti-German 'atrocities' designed to whip the populace into righteous wrath; Hearst did much the same beforehand as well.

Granted that is a heartbreaking photo. But what do we know about its actual provenance? Beyond its being black-and-white and obviously decades old, that could have been taken at a children's hospital, anywhere in the world. Maybe even right here in the Land of the Free. As the conventional wisdom states that Nazi Germany destroyed or covered up all the evidence of the "Holocaust" that they could, what earthly reasn would they have had to commemorate such an atrocity in a posed photo? To assure themselves that they'd hang for it after the war was over?

[Thomas777]

Right. Gypsies, Soviet POWs, Communists, Homosexuals, Poles, and regime enemies also suffered.

Holocaust victims abound.

But you see, Sulla the Dictator, that is exactly the point: People who were killed by the Nazis ABOUND...yet the American establishment seems to have transformed WWII into a Jewish victim narrative.

As I understand it, something like 18,000,000 Russians (a large percentage of whom were civillians including women and children) were massacred by Nazi forces...but there is not a massive, tax-funded museum devoted to Russian victims of WWII across from the White House now is there?

[The Retard]

This article may help:

Photo Fakery Exposed!
Photo Fakery: The History and Techniques of Photographic Deception and Manipulation Dulles, Virginia: Brassey's, 1999.
Richard A. Widmann

Dino Brugioni begins his study of photo fakery with a brief discussion of Arthur C. Lundahl, the first director of the CIA's National Photographic Interpretation Center. Lundahl always cautioned that the discovery of a photo that has been tampered with "could have the impact of exploding gunpowder." From this initial thought, Brugioni leads the layperson through the explosive topic of photo fakery with the intent that his book will serve as a reference aid to identify photo fakery and manipulation.

Brugioni, one of the founders of the CIA's National Photographic Interpretation Center, certainly has the credentials to write such a volume. Interestingly this CIA expert in the field of photo fakery and manipulation also co-authored the CIA report, "The Holocaust Revisited: A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex."

In the 1979 CIA Report, which was touted by the media as the only photographic evidence of the Holocaust, Brugioni and his co-author, Robert Poirier, analyzed aerial reconnaissance photography to determine the activities at Auschwitz-Birkenau from June 1944 to January 1945. Although Brugioni has asserted that his interest in the subject was prompted by the television mini-series "Holocaust," others have theorized that the rise of Holocaust revisionism in the late '70's may have actually been the cause.

Brugioni's first experience with photo fakery occurred shortly after the CIA hired him in 1948. He notes that "it became immediately apparent to me, even as a neophyte in the intelligence game, that the Soviets had embarked on a massive program of misinformation during the war years. On reviewing still photos, I found that the Soviets had used heavy brush techniques to delete details of their weapons. Care had also been taken to portray their leaders in the most favorable light. Reviewing Soviet newsreels, I found that many battle scenes had been deliberately staged; often, dramatic scenes of one battle would be superimposed to show up in films of other battles."

Photo Fakery takes the reader through a complete course on photo manipulation. Brugioni explains that there are four different techniques for faking photos: removing details, inserting details, photomontage, and false captioning. The last of these varies from the earlier types in that the photo itself is not manipulated, but the context of what the photo is supposed to convey is falsified.

Examples of the four types of faked photos are presented. A shocking example of the removal of details comes from a Communist Romanian newspaper in which an individual standing in the background of a photo of Soviet Premier Leonid Brezhnev is simply removed from the photo; a bush fills in the space where this man stood. Another key method is the insertion of details. Brugioni writes, "a good technician can also add details that were not in the original photo. An artist can add in features that may be lacking on the photo." The photomontage is a composite image. Essentially multiple photos are combined to place one object in the context of another.

The final method of faking is false captioning. Brugioni tells us, "proper captioning of a photograph includes descriptive data regarding the 'who, what, where, when, and why' of the subject or scene. In falsely captioned photos only one or more of these elements is usually mentioned." An example is shown of a FBI photo in which a murder suspect is led to believe that one of his intended victims had been killed. The photo shows a man with what appears to be a bullet wound to the back. Brugioni explains that the photo was actually staged and the blood is nothing more than ketchup.

Not only does Brugioni reveal the methods of photographic manipulation and show many examples, he also unravels the history of photo fakery. Brugioni explains that "the art of photo faking is as old as photography itself." His book abounds with faked or manipulated photos dating back to the American Civil War. Such photos show corpses inserted into battle scenes and famous Generals added to group shots.

Perhaps the most interesting chapter deals with "Spotting Fakes." Brugioni explains why photos have been faked, "Photos have been doctored for many reasons: fraud, greed, malice, humor, profit, deception, education, and to sway public opinion, to rewrite history, to sow discontent, and to waste the time of many people." Surprisingly, this chapter, which begins with reasons for fakery including "to rewrite history" and to "sway public opinion," actually concludes with a discussion of concentration camp photos and Brugioni's work on the subject.

It is important to note that Brugioni in no way claims that any aerial photos of concentration camps are faked-although it must strike many as incredibly odd that they are included in his chapter on "spotting fakes."It also strikes this writer that Brugioni may be involved in a sort of game or challenge to his readers in general and to Holocaust revisionists specifically to discover his own chicanery.

Concentration camp photos in this chapter include one of Belsen after the British burned the barracks due to fear of an epidemic of typhus and typhoid. It is followed by the same photo run through various stages of computer enhancement to "reconstruct" the camp structures from the ash left from the burned buildings. Another concentration camp photo discussed is an aerial shot of Belzec. Brugioni notes that the photo "revealed the massive pits where the bodies were buried." He also includes one shot of the Birkenau camp from 25 August 1944 and one of Auschwitz I from the same date.

In his text he notes: "In 1978, photo interpreter Robert Poirier and I discovered World War II aerial photos of the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp that had inadvertently been taken on leader film during an Allied reconnaissance mission against the nearby I.G. Farben Synthetic Rubber and Fuel Plant. Using a variety of density slicing and enlargement techniques, Holocaust victims who had arrived in boxcars at Auschwitz could be seen being marched to their deaths in the gas chamber. Others could be seen lined up at a processing center for slave labor assignments."

A close examination of these two photos in comparison to the 1979 CIA report on Auschwitz-Birkenau may generate some suspicions. Neither picture in Photo Fakery matches that in the CIA report. The photo of Birkenau in Photo Fakery might be the same photo that is labeled No. 4 on page 9 of the CIA report. The Auschwitz I photo is closest to Photo No. 2 on page 7 of the CIA report.

In Fakery the Birkenau photograph is cropped very differently (if it is the same photo). The captioning and labeling is also different. In Fakery much more of the Women's Camp is shown and the "Gas chambers" are at the very far right of the photo. Actually it is impossible to see the extreme right of Crematorium II or Crematorium III. The photo goes right into the binding of the book. Therefore the Undressing Room of Crematorium III which is clear in the CIA report is not shown at all in Fakery. In Fakery there is a label reading "Gas Chamber Crematorium" which points to the thick line which may be a fence or hedgerow behind Crematorium II. The label in the CIA report that reads "Engine Room" and points to Crematorium III is now labeled simply "Crematorium." The label in the CIA Report that reads "Prisoners on way to Gas Chambers" now reads "Group on way to Gas Chamber."

Although the labels are different and the cropping is very different, the "prisoners" themselves match up exactly. Therefore it appears that Brugioni chose to use the same photo in both books but to alter its appearance in the more recent one. The odd "Zyklon openings" in Crematorium III clearly visible in the CIA report are now off of the photo entirely. It's not that they don't appear, it's that the photo is cropped to exclude them. The four "dots" that line up behind Crematorium II are still visible in Fakery. Note that the photo under discussion appears to be the same photo in John Ball's Air Photo Evidence on page 40. The new book crops it from "Prisoners undergoing disinfection" and cuts off at the vents of Crematorium II and Crematorium III.

The Auschwitz I photo is similar to Photo 2 from the CIA report. However in the CIA report it is claimed that the photo is from 4 April 1944 while in "Fakery" it is labeled 25 August 1944. Also, the photo in Fakery is on an angle. In the CIA report the barracks are straight up whereas they appear at an 11:00 angle in Fakery. All of the photo labels are different. Otherwise the photos cover the exact same section of the camp. This photo is similar to the one in John Ball's book on page 44. However the photo in Fakery is upside down and cropped to only show the far right of this view. Actually there are details in Fakery which go further to the right than the photo in Ball's book.

Considering the photographs in Fakery in relation to John Ball's Air Photo Evidence is important. Ball theorizes in his book that a number of the photos in the CIA report have been faked. The particular method of fakery that he identifies is the adding of details. In Ball's work he concludes that "every mark which the authors of the CIA report used to conclude that homicidal gas chambers were in operation on the August 25th photos had been added to the photos after they were exposed in 1944."

One should wonder whether it is plausible that Brugioni altered the presentation of the photos in his new book due to the revisionist work of John Ball. In personal communication with Ball, he explained confidently, "I sent Brugioni my book in 1993 so his cropping has been done to cover up my expose of the drawn-on marks."

The most obvious example of photo faking by Brugioni is in regard to the "prisoners" in the Birkenau photo. John Ball is convinced that these marks were drawn on the photos. Recall that Brugioni admits that a good technician can add details to photos. We must also remember the fourth method of photo faking identified by Brugioni-false captioning. Brugioni claims in his CIA Report that the marks are "prisoners on [the] way to gas chambers" and similarly in Fakery as a "Group on way to [the] gas chamber."

A good understanding of false labeling should make the reader question if indeed that group is on its way to the gas chambers or in fact are they merely on their way to the barracks or for that matter out for a morning jog. A single photograph of course can not reveal where the prisoners were headed. Only a long series of photos or a film could reveal such information. Surely an expert such as Brugioni knows this. But then again he himself admits that photos are doctored to "rewrite history" and to "sway public opinion."

Brugioni concludes his book by noting that "when a photo is manipulated in any way, truth is compromised; when truth is compromised, distrust begins." He is also quick to comment that "Communist and other nations often rewrote history by removing people and events from photos, despite the fact that copies of the original photos were usually available throughout the world." It's intriguing to wonder if this book might be a secret challenge to revisionists, or perhaps a private struggle of conscience for its author.

We may never know Brugioni's motives for writing such a revealing book on photographic fakes, nor his motive in writing the CIA report on Auschwitz over 20 years ago. Perhaps Brugioni has considered Lundahl's warning that the discovery of a faked photo "could have the impact of exploding gunpowder." Is Brugioni having second thoughts about his CIA report? The answers to these questions may be explosive indeed.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1574881663/qid=1138087783/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0953239-0392021?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[cerberus]

When towards the end of the war, German supply lines were cut, and undernourishment became common, food was probably diverted from the least desirable individuals, especially those in concentration camps, as any self-respecting nation would have done in such conditions. Typhus was also common. Men who conducted autopsies concluded that most of the deaths in concentration camps were caused by typhus. Those who died were cremated probably to prevent the spread of diseases. This theory accounts for almost everything regarding "the Holocaust".

Your answer does imply some doubt food was probably diverted from the least desirable individuals, especially those in concentration camps, as any self-respecting nation would have done in such conditions.

I have my grave doubts as to being able to describe the Hitler Goverment as being "self-respecting".
Britain was at an even greater disadvantage and rationing was every bit as bad as it was in Germany , as a self respecting nation I must say they didn't starve German POW or those interned on the IOM.

The food and thypus excuse is a bit like sword swallowing , it takes a degree of practise to swallow it without question.
The answer is closer to home , try total indifference and forced marches from Poland to Germany.

This theory accounts for almost everything regarding "the Holocaust".


Youa re being serious here I trust ?

Men who conducted autopsies concluded that most of the deaths in concentration camps were caused by typhus.
Which camps and when ?

Photo Fakery Exposed!
Photo Fakery: The History and Techniques of Photographic Deception and Manipulation Dulles, Virginia: Brassey's, 1999.
Richard A. Widmann


The photographs taken by the SS temselves at Auschwitz Birkenau , including those which later became aprt of "The Auschwitz Album" , were these faked ?
Those which showed people being herded naked across the ground infront of Crem 3/4 , faked as well ?

Mr. Ball's claims have been proved to be little more than "balls".

[The Retard]

The photographs taken by the SS temselves at Auschwitz Birkenau , including those which later became aprt of "The Auschwitz Album" , were these faked ?
Those which showed people being herded naked across the ground infront of Crem 3/4 , faked as well ?

Mr. Ball's claims have been proved to be little more than "balls".

Did you read the entire article? :D

[cerberus]

Yes did read it but rather quickly. Take the point regarding Ball , my add on would be aimed at suporters of the "aerial view" school who quote him as proof.
Thye say the openning were added on to the photos , NASA say no they were not.
I just wondered if they thought that the series photos on the ground showing the transport arrival and the long line of elderly and young walking to the gas chambers might have been added in as well.
One gent once upon atime dismissed them merely as people walking along , which prove nothing.
He claimed that they might have gone to a subcamp , which was run by an industrial company , he ventured no opinion on what industrial labour an oldlady and two under ten aged childrne might be preforming.

[Basil Fawlty]

Yes did read it but rather quickly. Take the point regarding Ball , my add on would be aimed at suporters of the "aerial view" school who quote him as proof.
Thye say the openning were added on to the photos , NASA say no they were not.Wouldn't it be better to examine the photos rather than listening to NASA? Examine the whole series including the ones with no marks. Correlate this then with all the other evidence that spells doom for the idiotic and lying gas chamber story.
I just wondered if they thought that the series photos on the ground showing the transport arrival and the long line of elderly and young walking to the gas chambers might have been added in as well.There is no such photograph, that is a caption you are quoting. The photo just shows people walking along.

One gent once upon atime dismissed them merely as people walking along , which prove nothing.As he does once again. :)
He claimed that they might have gone to a subcamp , which was run by an industrial company , he ventured no opinion on what industrial labour an oldlady and two under ten aged childrne might be preforming.I also suggested that they might have been sent on further east. However, there were unproductive persons held in A-B.

One thing is for sure, nothing in the photo indicates anything about where they went.

[David Cohen]

Anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazi goy pigs can't deny the holocaust with any evidence what so ever.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I believe I told you already about the ordeal my grandfather went throught at those Rhine Camps, right? I guess he was an evil revisionist too lying to rebuild the fourth Reich.:rolleyes:

What does your grandfather have to do with this?

I'm talking about how Western Allies, ie, Frenchmen, Englishmen, and Americans, captured by the Germans were fed and survived the war just fine....

...while according to Holocaust Deniers, there wasn't enough food to feed Soviet POWs, Jews, Gypsies, and Poles.

[Vindex]

See, they where raw material for Grandpa's Lampshade factory, Grandpa used all the fat ones already for sofa covers.

Looking at the mutant people in that photo I could believe they where jews. If anything this photo puts the holocaust in a positive light.



http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/medicalexp.jpg

I'm not criticising revisionism here, just curious.

[Sulla the Dictator]

But you see, Sulla the Dictator, that is exactly the point: People who were killed by the Nazis ABOUND...yet the American establishment seems to have transformed WWII into a Jewish victim narrative.


Jews form the largest group of people killed in the concentration camps. Concentration camps symbolize Nazi atrocities because the Allies were able to SEE them, in the flesh. That crystalized the entire program in the eyes of the world.

There's no conspiracy or establishment involved.


As I understand it, something like 18,000,000 Russians (a large percentage of whom were civillians including women and children) were massacred by Nazi forces...but there is not a massive, tax-funded museum devoted to Russian victims of WWII across from the White House now is there?

Russian casualties are a bit complicated, because in some cases they were entirely avoidable and in some other cases are the sole responsibility of Stalin himself.

[Basil Fawlty]

See, they where raw material for Grandpa's Lampshade factory, Grandpa used all the fat ones already for sofa covers. Not forgetting the line of haute couture accesories that Mrs Koch was producing in Buchenwald along with thumb bone light switches and jodhpurs.
Is it any wonder they have to have laws to force people to believe this crap.

[Sulla the Dictator]

See, they where raw material for Grandpa's Lampshade factory, Grandpa used all the fat ones already for sofa covers.

Looking at the mutant people in that photo I could believe they where jews. If anything this photo puts the holocaust in a positive light.


Why would the European people find this revolting? :confused:

What a vibrant, healthy ideology!

[Sulla the Dictator]

Not forgetting th eline of haute couture accesories that Mrs Koch was producing in Buchenwald along with thumb bone light switches and jodhpurs.


Funny that her defense team said that "No one had been killed for their tattoos" instead of saying the things didn't exist.

[Basil Fawlty]

Funny that her defense team said that "No one had been killed for their tattoos" instead of saying the things didn't exist.The answer is simple. Nuremberg was not bound by any rules of evidence (as you know damn well) and such things as the allies wanted to accuse them of were declared matters of common knowledge. To deny that events happened would have been fatal for any defence strategy.



Article 19.

The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value.




Article 21.

The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.

[Vindex]

I agree.:)



Why would the European people find this revolting?

What a vibrant, healthy ideology!

[Sulla the Dictator]

The answer is simple. Nuremberg was not bound by any rules of evidence (as you know damn well) and such things as the allies wanted to accuse them of were declared matters of common knowledge. To deny that events happened would have been fatal for any defence strategy.



What does Nuremberg have to do with Frau Koch?

[Starr]

The picture doesn't prove shit. It looks like malnuourished people, so what? it is amazing to me that people who look like that are even able to sit up. The facial expressions seem strange, for what they have supposedly gone through. The one on the far left in the front, in particular, has a facial expression that looks like she is posing for a school photo or something.

...yet the American establishment seems to have transformed WWII into a Jewish victim narrative.

From what I have seen you can turn on any show about WW11 and out come the Jewish "victims," Oy vey!

I remember when they aired Shindler's list on television it was one of(if not the only) show ever aired without any commercial interruptions, or editing. That is how special the Jews are.:(

ELIMINATE ALL GOY!
Alright so who is "david Cohen?" lol.:nono:

[Eisenhans]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/medicalexp.jpg

I'm not criticising revisionism here, just curious.

The allies bombed out the supply routes leading to the labor camps, thus causing shortages of food and medicine and the like, thus the inhabitants of the camps starved. The darkness is either the lighting or else filthy living conditions.

[Sulla the Dictator]

The picture doesn't prove shit. It looks like malnuourished people, so what?


People who are victims of medical experiments. And children on top of it. How did they get that way?


it is amazing to me that people who look like that are even able to sit up.


Well, your knowledge on the subject is limited by your own admission. Maybe you should google pictures of people from Andersonvile before you develop these specious reasons for doubting an issue you don't study.


The facial expressions seem strange, for what they have supposedly gone through.


:rolleyes:


From what I have seen you can turn on any show about WW11 and out come the Jewish "victims," Oy vey!


Thats not true, though I can understand your anger on the subject. You don't like the Nazis being viewed negatively for what they did to innocent Jewish children.


I remember when they aired Shindler's list on television it was one of(if not the only) show ever aired without any commercial interruptions, or editing.


.....Or South Park the Movie on Comedy Central. South Park is part of the Jewish conspiracy, huh?

[Sulla the Dictator]

The allies bombed out the supply routes leading to the labor camps,


Really? They bombed the railway to Auschwitz?

[Eisenhans]

That's a question I've got for you sympathetic types: Why didn't they? If they knew of this "genocide," why didn't they bomb the routes to auschwitz?

Funny you mentioned auschwitz, also, when I just brought up labor camps and you folks call auschwitz a death camp.

I never even mentioned the camp.

Lack of personnel and food actually being ABLE to be supplied also contributed to the cause. The ration of many a German soldier in the last few months of the war was a half-a-cup of flour and a tin of water with a leaf to call it "tea." You'd think the government would supply more important beings with sustenence than prisoners.

[Sulla the Dictator]

That's a question I've got for you sympathetic types: Why didn't they? If they knew of this "genocide," why didn't they bomb the routes to auschwitz?


But I don't understand. Didn't you just say they DID bomb the supply route to Auschwitz, and that explains how these people starved?


Funny you mentioned auschwitz, also, when I just brought up labor camps and you folks call auschwitz a death camp.

I never even mentioned the camp.


Oh, so then how did people die at Auschwitz?


Lack of personnel and food actually being ABLE to be supplied also contributed to the cause. The ration of many a German soldier in the last few months of the war was a half-a-cup of flour and a tin of water with a leaf to call it "tea."


Well German troops captured by the Allies wern't emaciated skeletons, while the inmates of the camps were.

And how do the 'last months of the war' apply to 1942? 1943? 1944?

The Nazis looted Europe of food stores, by the way. Where did all that go?


You'd think the government would supply more important beings with sustenence than prisoners.

Why wern't American, English, and French prisoners in the same condition?

Most of those Frenchmen and some of the Englishmen had been in captivity since 1940.

[Starr]

[QUOTE=Sulla the Dictator]People who are victims of medical experiments. And children on top of it. How did they get that way?

Well, your knowledge on the subject is limited by your own admission. Maybe you should google pictures of people from Andersonvile before you develop these specious reasons for doubting an issue you don't study.

So I have to be some type of holocaust expert to comment on a picture that I think looks strange for a few reasons?


Thats not true, though I can understand your anger on the subject. You don't like the Nazis being viewed negatively for what they did to innocent Jewish children.

.....Or South Park the Movie on Comedy Central. South Park is part of the Jewish conspiracy, huh?

You are twisting my words in an attempt to call me an anti-semite and you say you are not a jew?:222:

[daisy]

i don't understand why nazis say jews are not white
they look white as a ghost in holocaust pictures

[Atlas]

i don't understand why nazis say jews are not white
they look white as a ghost in holocaust pictures


You have to look at facial features like nose, forehead etc.

I know some blond haired blue eyes guys working as roofers in south Europe who looks like damn niggers because of the sun.

[cerberus]

That's a question I've got for you sympathetic types: Why didn't they? If they knew of this "genocide," why didn't they bomb the routes to auschwitz?
Sulla makes a valid point , thia apart how difficult is it to find and bomb railway lines from say 20,000 in a box formation of B-17's or B-24's ?
How long would these lines stay "down" , a few days a week at most ?
How often would you want to bomb them , would you be able to find them ?
At what point do you bomb train lines which converge from all over Europe ?
Bomb them close to the camp and its always possible to make them walk around the damaged track , loda them on to another train and continue on to Auschwitz.

Well German troops captured by the Allies wern't emaciated skeletons, while the inmates of the camps were.


I have made the same point , German civilians were not walking skeletons either , and camp guards seemed not be starved.
Your arguement is leaking live a slieve.
Funny you mentioned auschwitz, also, when I just brought up labor camps and you folks call auschwitz a death camp.
Auschwitz fulfilled the purpose of both.

Lack of personnel and food actually being ABLE to be supplied also contributed to the cause. The ration of many a German soldier in the last few months of the war was a half-a-cup of flour and a tin of water with a leaf to call it "tea."
If we take the last few months to say run from Deember 1944 to April 1945 , germany mounted two major offensives in that time, are you telling me that this was done with starving troops ??

Did the U-boat crew swhich surrendered look starved ?
The ones my late father met did not, in fact they were very well supplied.

[Vindex]

A thing which I find strange is Hitler gets all the credit when if Iam correct Himmler really was the main Master Mind behind the dekikeing of Europe. The Man worked hard to do a good deed and gets little rememberance for it. Working at putting a end to the 2000 year jewish hate crime against the White Race, deserves some respect.

Holocaust revenge of the Goyium.

What do jews think of goyiums?

"Even the best of the goyium should be killed."

So why cry for flithy kikes who consider us subhuman cattle, that exist to be the "chosen ones" slaves. Unless your one of those sentimental love your mortal enemy fools.

[cerberus]

A thing which I find strange is Hitler gets all the credit when if Iam correct Himmler really was the main Master Mind behind the dekikeing of Europe. The Man worked hard to do a good deed and gets little rememberance for it. Working at putting a end to the 2000 year jewish hate crime against the White Race, deserves some respect.

Holocaust revenge of the Goyium.

What do jews think of goyiums?

"Even the best of the goyium should be killed."

So why cry for flithy kikes who consider us subhuman cattle, that exist to be the "chosen ones" slaves. Unless your one of those sentimental love your mortal enemy fools

What does all this actually mean ??

Do you think Himmler was the main man.
Himmler was nothing but a man out for self advancement. All he was and would beacome depended on Hitler , Himmler betrayed Hitler in the end.
So within your NZ view of things you support a traitor .

I have no major feelings towards jews one way or the other , you obviously have more feeling for them I do.
Just so you don't forget it Himmler murdered a fair few Germans ( non Jews) , just in case you forget.

[Vindex]

Himmler had the ruthless element that Uncle Lacked, yes Himmler deserves the credit for helping to rid Europe of jews. And they where mistakes made by all at the end. I do not consider Himmler a traitior, and Iam not going to debate in circles on a moot point.

That is the problem most Whites are lukewarm to the jews, so the jews remain mainly unopposed in there agenda. Most people Himmler had killed had it coming. Otherwise they would not be killed. Just because they where White and German did not mean they where alright.

I agree with Devi's view of Himmler.

What does all this actually mean ??

Do you think Himmler was the main man.
Himmler was nothing but a man out for self advancement. All he was and would beacome depended on Hitler , Himmler betrayed Hitler in the end.
So within your NZ view of things you support a traitor .

I have no major feelings towards jews one way or the other , you obviously have more feeling for them I do.
Just so you don't forget it Himmler murdered a fair few Germans ( non Jews) , just in case you forget.

[Basil Fawlty]

What does Nuremberg have to do with Frau Koch?Directly nothing, indirectly a great deal. The "trials" of lesser people was even more of a formalised lynch mob than the IMT (which was bad enough).

[Basil Fawlty]

People who are victims of medical experiments. And children on top of it. How did they get that way?How do you know? There's nothing in that photo to indicate anything about its provenance or subject matter.

[Thomas777]

...while according to Holocaust Deniers, there wasn't enough food to feed Soviet POWs, Jews, Gypsies, and Poles.

The Germans did not care about the welfare of the aforementioned groups...however, that is not proof positive of a massive conspiracy to exterminate very Jewish person on Earth.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Directly nothing, indirectly a great deal. The "trials" of lesser people was even more of a formalised lynch mob than the IMT (which was bad enough).

You're familiar with the Dachau trials?

[Sulla the Dictator]

The Germans did not care about the welfare of the aforementioned groups...however, that is not proof positive of a massive conspiracy to exterminate very Jewish person on Earth.

Well then lets define what you're talking about, first. Did the Germans WANT those groups to die?

[Basil Fawlty]

You're familiar with the Dachau trials?Yes, what would you like to say about them?

[Thomas777]

Well then lets define what you're talking about, first. Did the Germans WANT those groups to die?

The Germans considered them to be enemies of the Reich/undesirables and they enslaved and executed a lot of them. I think that is categorically different than the court historians' account of what occurred in WWII, to say nothing of the politicization of these events by organized Jewry.

[cerberus]

I do not consider Himmler a traitior
Funny , "Uncle" did and he ordered Donitz to have Himmler arrested and shot.
For my part I have to say Himmler as a rather vile character , a murderer who was in love with his own image of a German superman , a man who served himself first above others.
I would respect Heydrich more than Himmler and Heydrich had he lived would have deserved to have hanged ,he at least was loyal and had courage.

[cerberus]

It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.


The Russians were a bit miffed when the Court would not accept without question their "report" on Kaytan Wood whih blamed the Germans for the killings.
This went against the above.

[Eisenhans]

But I don't understand. Didn't you just say they DID bomb the supply route to Auschwitz, and that explains how these people starved?
I never mentioned Auschwitz until you did, and you only assumed I did.


Oh, so then how did people die at Auschwitz?

Never thought I'd have to quote myself....

Lack of personnel and food actually being ABLE to be supplied also contributed to the cause. The ration of many a German soldier in the last few months of the war was a half-a-cup of flour and a tin of water with a leaf to call it "tea."


Well German troops captured by the Allies wern't emaciated skeletons, while the inmates of the camps were.

Once again, the government will care for a higher priority of people before prisoners.

And how do the 'last months of the war' apply to 1942? 1943? 1944?
Those pictures could be from after the war, for all you know. It's simple to take a photograph of something or other, apply a title of some sort, and voila-the people will believe it.

The Nazis looted Europe of food stores, by the way. Where did all that go?
What do you mean?



Why wern't American, English, and French prisoners in the same condition?

They were prisoners.

[Basil Fawlty]

The Russians were a bit miffed when the Court would not accept without question their "report" on Kaytan Wood whih blamed the Germans for the killings.
This went against the above.Come come now, don't be so naive. They had to reject it because the whole world knew it was a fraud. If they had accepted it, it would have exposed their lynching party for what it was.

I may have mentioned this before, but the authors of the rejected Katyn report were the same people who authored the Auschwitz report which was solemnly accepted by the IMT. Katyn had to go in order to preserve a modicum of plausibility for that.

[cerberus]

Once again, the government will care for a higher priority of people before prisoners

The Goverment still had a duty of care towards these prisoners, one which they totally neglected. BTW Prisoners are people , in case you missed that point , or are prisoners "Sub humans" ?

Those pictures could be from after the war, for all you know. It's simple to take a photograph of something or other, apply a title of some sort, and voila-the people will believe it.


Look at the condition of the children in the photograph , it is their condition which is the important point.If you can date the photograph and give a location do so .

What do you mean?

It does answer itself , a huge amount of Russian argicultural out put went to Germany.

"They were prisoners" So why were Allied POWs not starved like the "prisoners" in the CZ camps ?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Yes, what would you like to say about them?

You are familiar with the fact that Koch's little accessories were entered into evidence there?

[Basil Fawlty]

The Goverment still had a duty of care towards these prisoners, one which they totally neglected. BTW Prisoners are people , in case you missed that point , or are prisoners "Sub humans" ?Don't be so ridiculous, Germany was on the brink of annihiliation at that point, I think they had other things on their mind than supplying camps with non-existent supplies.

[Sulla the Dictator]

The Germans considered them to be enemies of the Reich/undesirables and they enslaved and executed a lot of them. I think that is categorically different than the court historians' account of what occurred in WWII, to say nothing of the politicization of these events by organized Jewry.

I see. So the Germans were willing to kill Soviet POWs, Poles, Jews, and gypsies. But you don't believe in an organized effort to kill them. Is that where we're at?

[Basil Fawlty]

You are familiar with the fact that Koch's little accessories were entered into evidence there?You are aware that these items have never been shown to be what they were claimed to be?

I suppose you still believe in human soap factories as well.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Don't be so ridiculous, Germany was on the brink of annihiliation at that point, I think they had other things on their mind than supplying camps with non-existent supplies.

Germany could continue to use the resources to send people to camps where there was no food but they couldn't load food on the same trains going to the same camps?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Come come now, don't be so naive. They had to reject it because the whole world knew it was a fraud.

If they had accepted it, it would have exposed their lynching party for what it was.


So its a lying lynch party because of the Katyn Massacre charges but it hides the fact that its a lying lynch party because of Allied rejection of the charges?


I may have mentioned this before, but the authors of the rejected Katyn report were the same people who authored the Auschwitz report which was solemnly accepted by the IMT.


Auschwitz was a camp where the Nazis murdered civilians. Katyn was a location where the Soviets murdered Polish officers.

[cerberus]

Don't be so ridiculous, Germany was on the brink of annihiliation at that point, I think they had other things on their mind than supplying camps with non-existent supplies.
I think you will find that the supplies existed , the willingness to care in even the most basic terms for these people did not.
The Hitler goverment arrested , robbed these people and attempted to exterminate them. As prisoners of the state the state has a duty of care.
What they got was willful neglect.
Other things on their mind , let me see saving their own skins and hiding the evidence of their crimes.
Things on Hitlers mind destroying what was left of Germany and to hell with any German citizen who managed to remain standing in the post war world.
Things on Himmlers mind , how to become chief of the German Police , as "Eisenhower would need me and my SS to keep order".
As the point has been made before and ignored , no starving guards at Belsen.

[Sulla the Dictator]

You are aware that these items have never been shown to be what they were claimed to be?


Please address the issue. Are you aware that these accessories were entered into evidence at Dachau?


I suppose you still believe in human soap factories as well.

No. But its a typical Holocaust Denier tactic to conflate the two. I remember a little link you guys used to post about "Holohoax historian Lipstadt rejects soap and lampshades" where she specifically speaks about the soap and nothing about this lampshade issue.

[Basil Fawlty]

Germany could continue to use the resources to send people to camps where there was no food but they couldn't load food on the same trains going to the same camps?I the time we are talking about the Allies had air superority over much of Germany, nothing was moving in daylight on tracks or roads.

[Thomas777]

I see. So the Germans were willing to kill Soviet POWs, Poles, Jews, and gypsies. But you don't believe in an organized effort to kill them. Is that where we're at?

"Where we're at" is here:

The Third Reich did not really distinguish between soldier and civillian with respect to Jews, "communist sympathizers", Gypsies, and Slavs in the occupied territories...hence the deployment of the Einsatzgruppen.

That said, there is an ideology that is implicit within "the Holocaust"...hence the dramatic, official title. "The Holocaust" connotes an account of history that claims that Jews were uniquely aggreived and victimized by the Nazi movement, that the collective suffering of the Jews absolutely dwarfs the brutality inflicted upon every other national group in WWII, that this victimization occurred because of an implicit moral deficiency in Gentile peoples, and that a massive conspiracy existed to kill every single Jewish person on Earth.

"The Holocaust" is a politicized account of history that is exploited for political expediency and ethnic aggrandizement. It is not objective scholarship...rather, it is an ideological tendency that had become almost a secular religion to many people.

[Basil Fawlty]

Please address the issue. Are you aware that these accessories were entered into evidence at Dachau?You have my answer. A great deal of nonsense was solemnly accepted at those mockeries, for instance, everyone's favourite, the pedal operated brain bashing machine.

Until such time as an independent laboratory tests such items (which seem to have gone missing) and establish that they are what you claim they are, you may continue to believe in it, but don't expect me to join you.

No. But its a typical Holocaust Denier tactic to conflate the two. I remember a little link you guys used to post about "Holohoax historian Lipstadt rejects soap and lampshades" where she specifically speaks about the soap and nothing about this lampshade issue.Kindly address what I say rather than what you claim others say about Lipstadt, who is beneath contempt anyway.

[cerberus]

I the time we are talking about the Allies had air superority over much of Germany, nothing was moving in daylight on tracks or roads.
This does not account for the well fed guards , so food could be found for the guards but not the prisoners , perhaps the Mustangs and P-47's only shot up food supplies meant for prisoners ??
Be honest , there was no provision made for the inmates at all.Moving them away from the Russians only made a bad situation worse, yes I remember what you said perviously - te prisoners wanted to stay in german hands beacuse the Russians would have killed them.

[Basil Fawlty]

This does not account for the well fed guards , so food could be found for the guards but not the prisoners , perhaps the Mustangs and P-47's only shot up food supplies meant for prisoners ??Or perhaps the Germans prioritised what they had for their own people in those final few weeks.
Be honest You have a nerve.there was no provision made for the inmates at all.Moving them away from the Russians only made a bad situation worse, yes I remember what you said perviously - te prisoners wanted to stay in german hands beacuse the Russians would have killed them.I didn't say it, the prisoners did. Notably Elie Wiesel pontifex maximus of holocaustianity himself!

[cerberus]

Lipstadt, who is beneath contempt anyway
She is quite well thought of , her book "Denying the Holocaust" casts quite a bit of light on the lack of honesty in the denial / revisionist camp.
Beneath contempt for what reason ?

[Basil Fawlty]

She is quite well thought of Only by persons of no morals or zero critical faculties.

[cerberus]

"Or perhaps the Germans prioritised what they had for their own people in those final few weeks"

You are seriously saying that such advanced states of starvation took place over a few weeks ?
I would have expected things being so bad that the women guards would have at least dropped a dress size , seems they did not.
Kraemer seemed to have been used to a well stocked fridge.
You have a nerve.
I am shocked.:p
Seems that the people left at Auschwitz were not killed, wonder why ?

[cerberus]

Only by persons of no morals or zero critical faculties.
You mean people like David Irving ?:rofl:

[cerberus]

The Germans considered them to be enemies of the Reich/undesirables and they enslaved and executed a lot of them. I think that is categorically different than the court historians' account of what occurred in WWII, to say nothing of the politicization of these events by organized Jewry.

Now that's a poor excuse for murder if ever I heard one.
BTW The term " court historian" means nothing and does not lend any cred. to what is a totally bankrupt and threadbare excuse.
I feel you will have to refer to the German goverment of the day and not to the German people. You excuse at a stroke , slave labour and murder of men women and children and you blame the Jews for this ?
The orders came from Hitler , being the brave lad he was he blew his brains out and left Germany to carry his can.

"nothing of the politicization of these events by organized Jewry."

[Basil Fawlty]

"Or perhaps the Germans prioritised what they had for their own people in those final few weeks"

You are seriously saying that such advanced states of starvation took place over a few weeks ?It doesn't take that long and much of their condition was due to the terrible march from Poland to esacpe the Russians. Seems the inmates preferred to go with the evil Germans than stay to be liberated by the lovely Russians. Also the sudden increase of camp populations in the west contributed to the general collapse. The only post mortems ever carried out on dead inmates (by the forensic scientist attached to the US 7th (?) Army) established that typhus was the cause of death in practically all the corpses he examined (about 80).

[Thomas777]

You mean people like David Irving ?:rofl:

Irving was very well thought of until he started keeping company with elements that were on the EU plutocrats' shit list.

"Hitler's War" was very good scholarship, by any measuring stick really.

[Thomas777]

Now that's a poor excuse for murder if ever I heard one.
BTW The term " court historian" means nothing and does not lend any cred. to what is a totally bankrupt and threadbare excuse.

I don't think I made any effort to excuse the murder of civillians by German forces in WWII.

"Court historian" refers to mainstream media and academia that enjoy a bully pulpit from which to interpret history and exclude opposing viewpoints.

Calling the killing of Jews during WWII "The Holocaust" is about as objective as when Fade's relatives call the Civil War "the war of Northern aggression".

I don't think that ethnocentric posturing has a place in academia.

[cerberus]

It doesn't take that long and much of their condition was due to the terrible march from Poland to esacpe the Russians. Seems the inmates preferred to go with the evil Germans than stay to be liberated by the lovely Russians. Also the sudden increase of camp populations in the west contributed to the general collapse. The only post mortems ever carried out on dead inmates (by the forensic scientist attached to the US 7th (?) Army) established that typhus was the cause of death in practically all the corpses he examined (about 80).

It would seem that the benevolent S.S. didn't really offer much of a choice , march or be shot does limit the options.
When you are staring you imnune system does not exactly run on rails and as you rightly point out the overcrowding of an already overcrowded system did not help , this does not excuse the S.S. of any gulit , the whole sorry situation was Himmlers hell on earth and had he lived would have rightly deserved to have been hanged for it.

[cerberus]

I don't think I made any effort to excuse the murder of civillians by German forces in WWII.
The people in the camps and those working in forced labour at the likes of the Dora complex were civilians from all over Europe.
"Court historian"
It is an empty and meaningless term in which you invest some meaning to justify the attempts of others to provide an alternative view of history which does not tally with the facts. It is a label , nothing more.
Calling the killing of Jews during WWII "The Holocaust"
What is known as the Holocaust is not a Jewish only experience, as far as the killing of the Jews go , I call it genocide or simple murder.
A spade is after all a spade.
I don't think that ethnocentric posturing has a place in academia.
What about lies ? You are willing to accept them without question.

[Eisenhans]

The Goverment still had a duty of care towards these prisoners, one which they totally neglected. BTW Prisoners are people , in case you missed that point , or are prisoners "Sub humans" ?

Read the quote in my signature.


Look at the condition of the children in the photograph , it is their condition which is the important point.If you can date the photograph and give a location do so.
Correct. For all we know they could be prisoners in the gulag or something. It doesn't take much effort to claim it's from a "Nazi 'Death' Camp."


It does answer itself , a huge amount of Russian argicultural out put went to Germany.
Feed the citizens of the main land, feed the army, feed the citizens in conquered lands, feed prisoners, have supply routes disrupted, have harsh winters. Doesn't sound like a little bit of food was distributed and eaten.

"They were prisoners" So why were Allied POWs not starved like the "prisoners" in the CZ camps ?
They weren't jews.

[Thomas777]

The people in the camps and those working in forced labour at the likes of the Dora complex were civilians from all over Europe.
Yes I'm aware of that...which makes the fact that organized Jewry has appropriated a unique "victim status" among WWII victims all the more offensive.

It is an empty and meaningless term in which you invest some meaning to justify the attempts of others to provide an alternative view of histroy which does not tally with the facts. It is a label , nothing more.

It is not empty or meaningless...it is an accurate description. In Europe and Canada, people are locked in prison for disagreeing with the State's account of WWII.

What is known as the Holocaust is not a Jewish only experience, as far as the killing of the Jews go , I call it genocide or simple murder.
A spade is after all a spade.
What is known as the "Holocaust" refers to a very specific account of World War II atrocities. This account posits Jews as uniquely aggreived and does not consider the experiences of other groups who were victimized by the Third Reich.

What about lies ? You are willing to accept them without question.
What lies are you referring to?

[Sulla the Dictator]

I the time we are talking about the Allies had air superority over much of Germany, nothing was moving in daylight on tracks or roads.

Well you're not denying that people were SENT to these camps, so regardless of the time table obviously train services were ongoing.

[Sulla the Dictator]

"Where we're at" is here:

The Third Reich did not really distinguish between soldier and civillian with respect to Jews, "communist sympathizers", Gypsies, and Slavs in the occupied territories...hence the deployment of the Einsatzgruppen.

That said, there is an ideology that is implicit within "the Holocaust"...hence the dramatic, official title. "The Holocaust" connotes an account of history that claims that Jews were uniquely aggreived and victimized by the Nazi movement, that the collective suffering of the Jews absolutely dwarfs the brutality inflicted upon every other national group in WWII, that this victimization occurred because of an implicit moral deficiency in Gentile peoples, and that a massive conspiracy existed to kill every single Jewish person on Earth.


Well if you don't deny the slaughter, why exactly do you think that Jews shouldn't be particularly interested in the death of Jews during the period?

NO ONE claims that "Jews were uniquely aggreived and victimized by the Nazi movement". Please, show me the source for that.


"The Holocaust" is a politicized account of history that is exploited for political expediency and ethnic aggrandizement. It is not objective scholarship...


Well the, what 'political scholarship' can you identify? Where is the 'myth' which gives you such concern?

[Sulla the Dictator]

You have my answer. A great deal of nonsense was solemnly accepted at those mockeries, for instance, everyone's favourite, the pedal operated brain bashing machine.


Show me where the use of a brain bashing machine is on the indictment, please.


Until such time as an independent laboratory tests such items (which seem to have gone missing) and establish that they are what you claim they are, you may continue to believe in it, but don't expect me to join you.


Oh, Ok so then you know that these items were entered into evidence at the Dachau court.

Excellent, of course you believe they're fake. Thats not my question to you. My question is: who was responsible for making a fake tattoo lampshade?

[Sulla the Dictator]

It doesn't take that long and much of their condition was due to the terrible march from Poland to esacpe the Russians. Seems the inmates preferred to go with the evil Germans than stay to be liberated by the lovely Russians.


Oh, and the SS loved them so much as to give them a personal escort back to the West....at gunpoint.

You're a callous creature, and I'm sure you get a kick from this type of shite but you should know how corrosive it is to your character.

[Thomas777]

Well if you don't deny the slaughter, why exactly do you think that Jews shouldn't be particularly interested in the death of Jews during the period?
Because organized Jewry exploits the events of 6-7 decades ago in Europe in order to cultivate a "victim identity" for their brethren for the purpose of justifying their own nationalism, intolerance and xenophobia under the auspices of "defensive measures".

NO ONE claims that "Jews were uniquely aggreived and victimized by the Nazi movement". Please, show me the source for that.
Visit the "Holocaust Museum" in our nation's capitol. It is a tax funded memorial dedicated to the experience of a foreign, sectarian minority on a foreign continent 70 years ago. Res Ipsa Loquitur.



Well the, what 'political scholarship' can you identify? Where is the 'myth' which gives you such concern?
There was a tremendous row here in Illinois this year, when the State Assembly voted to introduce a "genocide" chapter into history education in public schools. The Jewish Federation, the ADL, and the Jewish Caucus of the Assembly itself became enraged that the proposed curriculum treated other genocides in history as "equal" to the Genocide of Jews. They are still trying to reverse this piece of legislation, or at least amend it to reflect their own ethnocentric disposition. Res Ipsa Loquitur.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Because organized Jewry exploits the events of 6-7 decades ago in Europe in order to cultivate a "victim identity" for their brethren for the purpose of justifying their own nationalism, intolerance and xenophobia under the auspices of "defensive measures".


Well thats actually absurd. I debate on other bulletin boards often, and debate's about Israel only seem to involve the Holocaust when white supremacists are involved.



Visit the "Holocaust Museum" in our nation's capitol. It is a tax funded memorial dedicated to the experience of a foreign, sectarian minority on a foreign continent 70 years ago. Res Ipsa Loquitur.


The Nazis persecuted groups other than Jews. Among the earliest victims of Nazi discrimination in Germany were political opponents--primarily Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, and trade unionists. In 1933, the Nazis established the first concentration camp, Dachau, as a detention center for political prisoners. The Nazis also persecuted authors and artists whose works they considered subversive or who were Jewish.

While Jews were the primary target, the Nazis also targeted Roma (Gypsies) on racial grounds. The legal interpretations of the 1935 Nuremberg Laws (which defined Jews by blood) were later adapted to include Roma. The Nazis termed Roma "work-shy" and "asocial"--unproductive and socially unfit. Roma deported to the Lodz ghetto were among the first killed in the mobile gas vans at the Chelmno camp in Poland. The Nazis also deported Roma to the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp, where almost all of them died in the gas chambers.


--United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005149

You're right, that DOES speak for itself. Willing to retract what you said?


There was a tremendous row here in Illinois this year, when the State Assembly voted to introduce a "genocide" chapter into history education in public schools. The Jewish Federation, the ADL, and the Jewish Caucus of the Assembly itself became enraged that the proposed curriculum treated other genocides in history as "equal" to the Genocide of Jews. They are still trying to reverse this piece of legislation, or at least amend it to reflect their own ethnocentric disposition. Res Ipsa Loquitur.

Tell you what, link me to an article about it. I'll give it a gander and tell you what I think. No promotions for "Prussian Blue", please.

[Thomas777]

Well thats actually absurd. I debate on other bulletin boards often, and debate's about Israel only seem to involve the Holocaust when white supremacists are involved.
Its absurd that you are suggesting:
1) that "the Holocaust is not an indispensible aspect of Jewish political identity.
2) Organized Jewry is not hyperethnocentric.






While Jews were the primary target...
Thank you for helping me make my case.



Tell you what, link me to an article about it. I'll give it a gander and tell you what I think. No promotions for "Prussian Blue", please.

http://68.166.163.242/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=82458

[Vindex]

Well let us see what excuse jews use for mass murder of goyim?


"1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

What jews write about enslaving Goyim is even more interesting.
Why are people supposed to feel sorry for jews again.lol




Now that's a poor excuse for murder if ever I heard one.
BTW The term " court historian" means nothing and does not lend any cred. to what is a totally bankrupt and threadbare excuse.
I feel you will have to refer to the German goverment of the day and not to the German people. You excuse at a stroke , slave labour and murder of men women and children and you blame the Jews for this ?
The orders came from Hitler , being the brave lad he was he blew his brains out and left Germany to carry his can.

"nothing of the politicization of these events by organized Jewry."

[Vindex]

On the Himmler issue.

"Heinrich Himmler (who had, at the last moment, actually tried to conclude an armistice with them.) He had Fegelein, — Gruppenführer S.S. married to Eva Braun’s own sister — shot for having, without permission, attempted to go home, and thus “to survive” the ruin of the Reich. He made apparently no distinction between Himmler, who had tried to negotiate with the Allies for Germany to live, and Fegelein, who had merely tried to spare his own life. In the last days of that titanic struggle against the coalesced forces of the whole Dark Age world, all discriminations and all proportions lost


Adolf Hitler condemned Himmler precisely because he, “the perfect National Socialist believer,” who had followed him so far, and for so many years — already when the Party was small and illegal; — who had, nay, in many circumstances, gone further than he along the way of indiscriminate ruthlessness, did not follow him to the end; could not, it would seem, like he, and like Goebbels, and like admirable Magda Goebbels, understand the mathematical necessity of Germany’s Passion in view of the earthly salvation of the Aryan race, and of the ultimate re-establishment of the divine world-Order (never mind when and how); could not understand, like he, the necessity of her sacrifice “in the interest of the Universe.” (Albert Speer had also “not understood.” He too had stood up against the Führer’s determination to fight to the finish. He had prevented the execution of his “burnt earth” orders. And yet the Führer forgave him. True, Speer had joined the Party in 1933, after its rise to power, not like Himmler, ten years before, when the success of National Socialism seemed problematic. Nor was he that fanatical defender of the National Socialist doctrine, that Himmler was. Moreover, morally tortured at the thought of having broken his oath of allegiance to Adolf Hitler, Speer came, at, his own risk, and opened his heart to him. It is difficult to say whether the Fuhrer would have pardoned Himmler’s attempt to negotiate with the hostile powers, had the Reichsführer S.S. come to him and done the same. Adolf Hitler expected more of him than of Speer or anybody else)."

[cerberus]

Read the quote in my signature.
People are not animals , the cat in my at. is a pet, human beings are not animlas or fleas. The example given is crude propaganda .
They weren't jews.
In common with the Allied POWS , they were human beings , not fleas or animals.
It doesn't take much effort to claim it's from a "Nazi 'Death' Camp."

You are saying that this was not taken in a German run camp ?
That is why I asked you to date and loacte it , you have not done so.

"Feed the citizens of the main land, feed the army, feed the citizens in conquered lands, feed prisoners, have supply routes disrupted, have harsh winters. Doesn't sound like a little bit of food was distributed and eaten."

I think this generous picture of a benign German hand feeding and caring for all is one which Dr. Goebbels has given you,
swallowed hook line and sinker .
The people occupied by the Germans got a lot less than you imagine , starvation occurred in Russia amongest the Jews first and others later.
Hitler said that Russia would be "German's India" , his palns for the local population did not go as far as feeding them.

[cerberus]

Yes I'm aware of that
And you ignore it.
It is not empty or meaningless...it is an accurate description
It is a term concocked , nothing more, much as "revisionist" is , this term implies that some factual information is being " revised" , this is also far from the truth."Facts" are being "invented" , for this I read lies.
What is known as the "Holocaust" refers to a very specific account of World War II atrocities
This is how you read it , for your own specific gain. I don't see it as a Jew only experience.
What lies are you referring to?

See David Irving, Robert Faurrison , David Cole , Mr. Ball to name but a very few.

[cerberus]

In the last days of that titanic struggle against the coalesced forces of the whole Dark Age world, all discriminations and all proportions lost

Certainty Hitler's grip on reality was lost.
Hitler wanted to shoot almost everyone at some stage or another.
Himmler was a self advancing creep and his adjutant got advancement on the efforts of others.
Goebbels, and like admirable Magda Goebbels
You are talking about a mother who in her own twisted view of life murdered her own children.
I find nothing admirable in Magda Goebbels and I believe the murder of the Goebbels children to be as bad as the murder of any child who died at the ahnds of the party.
A total waste of young life .

If you actually believe what you have written would you have been glad to have worn the uniform of the SS and died in the ruins of Berlin for a man who cared more for how history would remember him than he did for a single citizen of the city which was being destroyed around him ?
Now that's a sickness no antibiotic can ever cure.

[cerberus]

Well you're not denying that people were SENT to these camps, so regardless of the time table obviously train services were ongoing
Moving the people was more important than trying to make any effort to sustain them , life was of zero importance
These people had seen and endured the camp system , their death was more in the interests of the SS than their living

[Basil Fawlty]

Well you're not denying that people were SENT to these camps, so regardless of the time table obviously train services were ongoing.Strawman - no one denies that people were sent to KZ.

As for train timetables, you raise one of the most interesting issues of all. The figures for alleged deaths in Auschwitz (the officially revised figure - remember? They changed all the plaques (http://www.jewwatch.com/Cached%20Stories/Holocaust_Facts/holocaust_numbers_plaques.htm)in the camp from saying 4 million people were when they changed all the plaques to read 1.5 million) are heavily dependent on train arrival figures. What we who don't believe in your fairy tales would like to know is this: where are the train departure records for Auschwitz, which was a major rail hub.

[Fade the Butcher]

That link is hilarious. Do you deny that eight million souls perished at Auschwitz, cerberus?

[cerberus]

"1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

Now let us not pretend to be whiter than white , what the good Doctor and the party put forward as a means of treating the mentally ill in their films pushing darwinism like it was an article of faith is worth looking at as well.

As far as our Christian Churches go and our so call Christian spirit of love and brotherhood etc go history is more than full of our less than Christian charity and our racist hatred towards others.
Sin first stone , throwing , and JC was a Jew .

[Basil Fawlty]

Show me where the use of a brain bashing machine is on the indictment, please.Where are gas chambers on the indictment? Were is all the evidence used in a trial entered on the indictment? More strawman arguments.
It was duly entered into evidence and accepted as an exhibit - IMT VII Page 376.



Oh, Ok so then you know that these items were entered into evidence at the Dachau court.I have even seen photographs of similar items (lampshades) which were alleged to be made from human skin. Your problem is that these remain just that - unsubstantiated allegations. No such lampshades have ever been found.
Excellent, of course you believe they're fake. Thats not my question to you. My question is: who was responsible for making a fake tattoo lampshade?My question to you is: where are these lampshades?

[Basil Fawlty]

You're a callous creature, and I'm sure you get a kick from this type of shite but you should know how corrosive it is to your character.No, I'm not callous at all. I strongly object to lies, liars, and chutzpah; which is why I object most strongly to the likes of you.

[Fade the Butcher]

Now let us not pretend to be whiter than white , what the good Doctor and the party put forward as a means of treating the mentally ill in their films pushing darwinism like it was an article of faith is worth looking at as well.What do you have against Darwinism?As far as our Christian Churches go and our so call Christian spirit of love and brotherhood etc go history is more than full of our less than Christian charity and our racist hatred towards others.What do you have to say about the brotherly love that was meted out to the Jewish and Muslim residents of Jerusalem during the Crusades?

[cerberus]

Amazing "Basil" , its up to eight million now .
Perhaps Ernest might be able to make it 12 by the end of the week.:rofl:
Fade , I think I have answered your question .

[Fade the Butcher]

Amazing "Basil" , its up to eight million now .
Perhaps Ernest might be able to make it 12 by the end of the week.:rofl:
Fade , I think I have answered your question .Answer the question. Did eight million Jews die at Auschwitz?

[Basil Fawlty]

Amazing "Basil" , its up to eight million now .
Perhaps Ernest might be able to make it 12 by the end of the week.:rofl:
Fade , I think I have answered your question .Don't shoot the messenger, shoot yourself. :222:

[Vindex]

Here are some more reasons why the holocaust was a great thing. "Show no mercy to goyim." Why should goyim show mercy to a jew. No room for love thy enemy in the real world.



6. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is
permitted if she is three years of age."

7. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge
wording."

8. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

9. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

10. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has
given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found
after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

11. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which
belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to
Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the
transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return
lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by
so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as
honorable people."

12. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and
must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain
anything against them."

13. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations
of the world are not human beings but beasts."

14. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew
will have 2800 slaves."

15. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in
human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts.
The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned
to serve the Jew day and night."

16. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be
violated."

17. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish
girl."

18. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is
responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill
a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even
before he denounces."

20. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other
nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is
entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

21. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the
word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women
slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden
to do all this to a goy."

22. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the
possessions and blood of all nations."

23. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a
Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile,
lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be
ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs
to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."

24. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during
the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and
declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'.
His vows are then invalid."

[cerberus]

:) I am tempted to do a "Life of Brian here , really tempted":)
Hitler's take on it was shall we say a bit daft ?
Had he not been so serious it could have been used as a sub plot in "Trading Places"
Hitler and Himmler having a one Reichsmark bet perhaps ?:rofl:
What do you have to say about the brotherly love that was meted out to the Jewish and Muslim residents of Jerusalem?
Fade I am not in any way a religious man but do you really think that naked hate apart either side are able to advance.
Unless both sides want peace there won't be any , hatred and revenge rule there at the moment.

[cerberus]

Don't shoot the messenger, shoot yourself.
The only gun I have is a rather nice deactivated Kar 98 , not much chance of me doing any dmage with that.:(

Answer the question. Did eight million Jews die at Auschwitz?
Fade I think I have already answered it. I take it you are now reading the Zundel.
"The only way is up".:)

[Fade the Butcher]

Fade I am not in any way a religious man but do you really think that naked hate apart either side are able to advance.I just want to know where you got the idea that Christianity teaches that we should love, respect, and tolerate all people. I am not a religious man either, but from I know about the medieval papacy this wasn't the case back then. The lands of infidels were treated as 'free space' under international law in the Middle Ages. Christian morality did not apply there. And you can talk all you want about 'love thy neighbor' and what that means, but it was precisely this idea that was used to justify the Crusades against Islam. 'Love thy neighbor' meant coming to his assistance against the enemy.Unless both sides want peace there won't be any , hatred and revenge rule there at the moment. Jesus taught that private hatred was immoral. He didn't say it was wrong to hate the public enemy. This distinction is lost in the translation of the Bible into English (or so I have read).

[Basil Fawlty]

Here are some more reasons why the holocaust was a great thing. "Show no mercy to goyim." Why should goyim show mercy to a jew. No room for love thy enemy in the real world.Tell me, do you really believe that homocidal gas chambers and all that existed?



6. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is
permitted if she is three years of age."

7. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge
wording."

8. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

9. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

If you are into displaying the embarassing beliefs of Jews and their lovable nature then you will need to get this - http://www.come-and-hear.com/

[Fade the Butcher]

Fade I think I have already answered it. I take it you are now reading the Zundel. "The only way is up".:)The website cites this number as being given by the French Research Department for the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal on Dec. 31, 1945. Is this true? Was such a figure in fact given? I take it you are saying this claim is false?

[cerberus]

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm


Are you seriously telling me that all Jews are into 3 year old girls and that there is a shortage of 4 year old jewish virgins.
Pulleth the other one , this is old google hat.

[Fade the Butcher]

Are you seriously telling me that all Jews are into 3 year old girls and that there is a shortage of 4 year old jewish virgins.
Pulleth the other one , this is old google hat.That website makes a claim about Judaism. It does not assert, as far as I can tell, that all Jews are of that point of view.

[Basil Fawlty]

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm


Are you seriously telling me that all Jews are into 3 year old girls and that there is a shortage of 4 year old jewish virgins.He never said any such thing. He posted what are claimed to be extracts from the Talmud which suggest that such repulsive practices can be permitted under certain circumstances.


One should be very cautious about using Talmud extracts found on some internet sites. Some of them are geniune extracts some of them false. Come and Hear (http://www.come-and-hear.com/) is the best source because they have the entire Soncino translation of the Talmud online.

[cerberus]

What does Dr. Anti post it then , if it rests on the individual ?
I have encountered a number of child abusers over the past years , so far none were Jewish.
You would think that give this article of faith ( for that is how it is being presented) that the world would be coming down with them .
Perhaps it is just of zero value ?

[cerberus]

He never said any such thing. He posted what are claimed to be extracts from the Talmud which suggest that such repulsive practices can be permitted under certain circumstances

Yes a totally balanced:rolleyes: view .

[Basil Fawlty]

Yes a totally balanced:rolleyes: view .I beg your pardon?

[cerberus]

Tell me, do you really believe that homocidal gas chambers and all that existed?


Well fade , do we jump in again or do we not ?
Let me put it this way , does the Pope own a balcony ?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Strawman - no one denies that people were sent to KZ.


So they can send people there but not food?

What happens when I send fifty people to my basement and don't feed them?

What legal system do you support that doesn't hold me responsible for their death?

Not to mention what happens to them when I shoot and gas them.


As for train timetables, you raise one of the most interesting issues of all. The figures for alleged deaths in Auschwitz (the officially revised figure - remember? They changed all the plaques (http://www.jewwatch.com/Cached%20Stories/Holocaust_Facts/holocaust_numbers_plaques.htm)in the camp from saying 4 million people were when they changed all the plaques to read 1.5 million)


This has been debunked almost 10,000 times by me alone. Its so wearisome. I'm sure Potyondi, Cerebus, and Oberon have also popped this canard.

Four million are SOVIET figures. The West has not operated by those figures during the past 50 years of Holocaust research. And the largest part of those mistaken Soviet figures are meant to cover the deaths of Soviet POWs and non-Jews.

The Soviets were lazy more than anything else.


are heavily dependent on train arrival figures. What we who don't believe in your fairy tales would like to know is this: where are the train departure records for Auschwitz, which was a major rail hub.

Are you suggesting that those records are hidden from you?

There are many cases when questions serve a side better unanswered. For example, there are many Palestinians who claim that Arafat was poisoned by the Israelis. Interestingly enough, his wife has refused to allow an autopsy on his body. Its better that the myth survives.

So to with this. The data is available to your Holocaust denier friends. So is verification of photography by professional analysts. Your friends CHOOSE not to investigate it, and when they do investigate, they choose not to tell you their results.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Answer the question. Did eight million Jews die at Auschwitz?

Its interesting that the list is in decending order, implying that the figures have been lowered over time....even though the dates do not correspond.

Why would a legitimate historical revisionist use a tactic like that?

I remember debunking a list similar to that in a previous incarnation of the Phora.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Where are gas chambers on the indictment?


The murders and ill-treatment were carried out by diverse means, including shooting, hanging, gassing, starvation, gross overcrowding, systematic under-nutrition, systematic imposition of labor tasks beyond the strength of those ordered to carry them out, inadequate provision of surgical and medical services, kickings, beatings, brutality and torture of all kinds, including the use of hot irons and pulling out of fingernails and the performance of experiments by means of operations and otherwise on living human subjects.

Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Vol. 1
Indictment : Count Three
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/count3.htm

Now, please show me who was indicted for a "brain bashing device". I'd like to see that part of the indictment.


Were is all the evidence used in a trial entered on the indictment?


Method is always entered into the indictment, as far as I know. Its certainly entered here. You are charging someone for an act.


More strawman arguments.


Apparently not. Who was indicted for using a brain bashing device?


It was duly entered into evidence and accepted as an exhibit - IMT VII Page 376.


What day of the trial was it?


I have even seen photographs of similar items (lampshades) which were alleged to be made from human skin.


Sure you have. Now, since we agree that it EXISTED (And disagree about what it was), I would like to know who made it.


Your problem is that these remain just that - unsubstantiated allegations. No such lampshades have ever been found.
My question to you is: where are these lampshades?

Why, exactly, would the Western world hang onto a gruesome thing like that? A fabric, leather, and human flesh all rot. Its strange that you feel the disgusting and morbid act didn't happen because of the CONSEQUENCE of its gruesome nature.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I did an edit search using the word "brain" in volume VII of the trial, and I couldn't find a reference to this device.

[Basil Fawlty]

So they can send people there but not food?Boring, we've already covered this.
This has been debunked almost 10,000 times by me alone. Its so wearisome. I'm sure Potyondi, Cerebus, and Oberon have also popped this canard.

Four million are SOVIET figures. The West has not operated by those figures during the past 50 years of Holocaust research. And the largest part of those mistaken Soviet figures are meant to cover the deaths of Soviet POWs and non-Jews.

The Soviets were lazy more than anything else.More distraction.

Court historians are still unwittingly dependent on those rejected figures to get their death tolls as court historian Christopher Browning concedes.

see the Renk-Browning exchange, a must-read for anyone interested in how they get the figures for the alleged gassings in Auschwitz.
http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3389
Are you suggesting that those records are hidden from you? Not from me personally, no. They are simple unavailable to researchers of any stripe.
So to with this. The data is available to your Holocaust denier friends. So is verification of photography by professional analysts. Your friends CHOOSE not to investigate it, and when they do investigate, they choose not to tell you their results. Are you claiming that the train departure records of Auschwitz are avaliable? If so you had better support that with solid references.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Boring, we've already covered this.


Wrong. You never answered the question. Why can Germany keep sending people to the camps and not food?


More distraction.


Yes. Anything you can't answer is a distraction. Got it.


Court historians are still unwittingly dependent on those rejected figures to get their death tolls as court historian Christopher Browning concedes.


So when he says exactly what I just said:

No serious historian (from Reitlinger in the 1950's and Hilberg in the 1960's to the present) has even accepted the Soviet figure of 4 million, which was based on the erroneous method of estimating maximum capacity for burning bodies and then falsely assuming that that maximum capacity was in reality realized every single day that the gas chamber/crematorium complexes were in existence. Given the Soviet understanding of history as functional rather than truthful, once given, the estimate was never corrected or revised.

We're going to ignore that, and pretend as if both he and I haven't explained why the plaque was changed?

Why don't you respond to our mutual point rather than spam links to me? Browning hits it spot on:

Dear Mr. Renk,

The tone of our correspondence seems to have changed from exchange to
interrogation, in which you feel entitled to demand answers at your
convenience to an unending series of questions. Now it is my turn to pose
some questions. Who are you? What is your agenda?

Who do you people think you are? This isn't "Question time", its an exchange. I'm not your teacher or pedagogue paid by the state to educate you. I'm a citizen in a discussion, which involves question and response. You feel free to query me, just as that fellow sent his spam to Mr. Browning, but you don't seem interested in responding to my questions.

What are you afraid of? Aren't you interested in truth?


see the Renk-Browning exchange


Where Renk misleads Browning about the nature of their discussion and then harasses him after Browning ignores him upon learning with whom he is dealing?



Are you claiming that the train departure records of Auschwitz are avaliable?


If they exist they're available.


If so you had better support that with solid references.

Oh? You mean support an obvious fact with evidence in the absence of contrary evidence?

[Basil Fawlty]

The murders and ill-treatment were carried out by diverse means, including shooting, hanging, gassing, starvation, gross overcrowding, systematic under-nutrition, systematic imposition of labor tasks beyond the strength of those ordered to carry them out, inadequate provision of surgical and medical services, kickings, beatings, brutality and torture of all kinds, including the use of hot irons and pulling out of fingernails and the performance of experiments by means of operations and otherwise on living human subjects.

Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Vol. 1
Indictment : Count Three
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/count3.htm

Now, please show me who was indicted for a "brain bashing device". I'd like to see that part of the indictment.Cheap. The "including does not restrict means to those explicitly mentioned.
Sure you have. Now, since we agree that it EXISTED (And disagree about what it was), I would like to know who made it.No, all we agree on is that a lampshade was produced in 1945 and the claim was, that this was made of human skin. no attempt was made to support that allegation then or since. In fact it is not known what happened to that lampshade.
Why, exactly, would the Western world hang onto a gruesome thing like that? A fabric, leather, and human flesh all rot. Its strange that you feel the disgusting and morbid act didn't happen because of the CONSEQUENCE of its gruesome nature.Actually you are wrong here. I don't believe in something if there is no evidence for that beyond a photograph of something that could be made of any material.

Now perhaps you want to rethink your assumption that all such alleged items are no longer held somewhere. You might also ask why western scienitifc institutes and museums etc, stock all sorts of morbid remains from across the world?

[cerberus]

Would it be fair to say you would be antisemetic ?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Cheap.


Thats the best you've got? You asked for its mention, you were given it.


The "including does not restrict means to those explicitly mentioned.


Well great, but a 'brain brashing' device was not included in the indictment. Hence, no one was convicted of using it.

Nor do I see a response here about my inability to find reference to a 'brain bashing device' anywhere in volume VII.


No, all we agree on is that a lampshade was produced in 1945 and the claim was, that this was made of human skin.


Right. Ok, now for the tenth time, who made that lampshade?

I mean, you ACKNOWLEDGE that it was produced in 1945. You DO NOT agree that it was made of human skin.

Who made it?


no attempt was made to support that allegation then or since.


Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6

[Page 123]

COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS

SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Section of Pathology
25 May 1945

SUBJECT: Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides

TO: COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U.S. Army)

(ATTN: JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)

1. There were submitted to this laboratory section for
examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
81 T.J.A.

[Page 124]

2. The description follows:

GROSS: Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.

PIECE A: Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.

PIECE B: Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass. To the right of this mass
is a man's head.

PIECE C: Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base. The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm. The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area. These are 16
cm. Apart. From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part. A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin. To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.

MICROSCOPIC: The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants. Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.

3. Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
specimens are tattooed human skin.

For the Commanding Officer,

[signed] REUBEN CARES
Ruben Cares
Major M.C., Chief of pathology



In fact it is not known what happened to that lampshade.


Human flesh rots.


Actually you are wrong here. I don't believe in something if there is no evidence for that beyond a photograph of something that could be made of any material.


Other things you don't believe in: Eye witness testimony, the tacit consent of the accused, or a valid alternate theory about the origin or composition of the item.


. You might also ask why western scienitifc institutes and museums etc, stock all sorts of morbid remains from across the world?

Digging up a 5,000 year old mummy for a museum is different than taking a person's dead grandmother for display.

How many dead GI skulls are on display in museum exhibits regarding Vietnam, out of curiousity?

[cerberus]

It would seem that the "revisonist" want to be the only people who can review history.

[Vindex]

I want to believe!:222:

Thank you for the link.


Tell me, do you really believe that homocidal gas chambers and all that existed?


If you are into displaying the embarassing beliefs of Jews and their lovable nature then you will need to get this - http://www.come-and-hear.com/

[Fade the Butcher]

Its interesting that the list is in decending order, implying that the figures have been lowered over time....even though the dates do not correspond. Why would a legitimate historical revisionist use a tactic like that? I remember debunking a list similar to that in a previous incarnation of the Phora.It is interesting that neither of you will answer my simple question. Did eight million Jews die at Auschwitz?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Did eight million Jews die at Auschwitz?


No. Now why the deceptive list?

[Ixtab]

Were four billion Jews killed by the Romans?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Holocaust deniers seem eager to ask questions, but less than happy to answer them.

[Ixtab]

Holocaust deniers seem eager to ask questions, but less than happy to answer them.I am not a Holocaust denier, or a revisionist. I am just curious about your view on the alleged murder of four billion Jews by the Romans.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I am not a Holocaust denier, or a revisionist. I am just curious about your view on the alleged murder of four billion Jews by the Romans.

What is the source of that figure?

[Ixtab]

What is the source of that figure?The Talmud (gittin 57b or 58b, I think)

[Sulla the Dictator]

The Talmud (gittin 57b or 58b, I think)

I see. So you question Classical Roman historians because of the Sibylline Books?

[Sulla the Dictator]

The Roman myth:

And a little later, speaking of her death:—

"Here the Boii and the myriad tribes of Gauls

Did not, exulting, cast amid the currents of the Po;
But hurled the shields from their belligerent arms

Upon the hateful maid, and made their ornament her doom."


Ten thousand tribes of Gaul? Please.

[Petr]

I see. So you question Classical Roman historians because of the Sibylline Books?
I actually agree with you here. It is not reasonable to treat Talmud's flights of Oriental fancy as a serious historical record, especially if they are from Haggadah section of the Talmud which even Rabbis themselves treated as more or less apocryphal storytelling.

Here you can see it in its original context:

" The voice is the voice of Jacob and the hands are the hands of Esau:10 'the voice' here refers to [the cry caused by] the Emperor Hadrian11 who killed in Alexandria of Egypt sixty myriads on sixty myriads, twice as many as went forth from Egypt. 'The voice of Jacob': this is the cry caused by the Emperor Vespasian12 who killed in the city of Bethar four hundred thousand myriads, or as some say, four thousand myriads. 'The hands are the hands of Esau:' this is the Government of Rome which has destroyed our House and burnt our Temple and driven us out of our land."

http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_57.html#PARTb


Petr

[Basil Fawlty]

I did an edit search using the word "brain" in volume VII of the trial, and I couldn't find a reference to this device.That's because Avalon only has two documents from VII online. What you should be looking for is documentary exhibit USSR-52. Perhaps Harry Mazal's site will have it. I include a link to Porter's facsimile of the English (http://www.cwporter.com/pg15.htm)taken from the hard copy edition of VII as well as a facsimilie of the original Russian document itself. (http://www.cwporter.com/ussr52.htm)

Of course I don't believe for a moment that you are ignorant of all this, you are merely playing to the gallery.


****
Here is an extract in German taken from the CD ROM Digitale Bibliothek Band 20 which contains the entire transcript (http://www.digitale-bibliothek.de/scripts/ts.dll?s=3&id=6A0348E2&mp=/art/4020/&sc=band20.htm). Far superior to the published transcripts in English because it includes the full transcript, including all the remarks ordered struck out by the "judges."

This is a description of the brain bashing machine in the affadavit of Paul Waldmann who claims to have been the operator of this extraordinary device.

Am 2. Mai 1945 wurde in Berlin der SS-Angehörige Paul Ludwig Gottlieb Waldmann gefangengenommen. Er wurde am 17. Oktober 1914 in Berlin als Sohn des Kaufmanns Ludwig Waldmann geboren. Soweit er wußte, lebte seine Mutter bis zu seiner Verhaftung in der Stadt Braunschweig, Donnerburgweg 60.
Er machte persönlich Angaben über die Tatsachen der Massentötung sowjetischer Kriegsgefangener, die ihm persönlich bekannt waren. Er war Zeuge dieser Vernichtungsaktionen, da er als Chauffeur in den verschiedenen Lagern tätig war und auch selbst an den Exekutionen teilgenommen hat.
Seine Aussage befindet sich auf Seite 9 unseres Beweisstücks USSR-52, das »Lager Auschwitz« betitelt ist. Er hat besonders genaue Informationen über die Hinrichtungen im Lager Sachsenhausen gegeben.
Gegen Ende des Sommers 1941 hat das im Lager untergebrachte Sonderkommando der Sicherheitspolizei einen Monat hindurch täglich russische Kriegsgefangene umgebracht.
Paul Ludwig Gottlieb Waldmann sagte aus, wobei Sie die von mir verlesene Stelle seiner Angaben auf Seite 52 des Dokumentenbuches finden:
»Vom Bahnhof bis zum Lager hatten die russischen Kriegsgefangenen etwa 1 Kilometer zu Fuß zu gehen. Im Lager verblieben sie über Nacht ohne Verpflegung. Am nächsten Abend führte sie einer zur Exekution. Die Häftlinge wurden aus dem Innenlager unaufhörlich mit drei Lastkraftwagen, von denen ich den einen fuhr, abtransportiert.
Das Innenlager war von dem Exekutionsgelände ungefähr eindreiviertel Kilometer weit entfernt. Die Exekution selbst fand in einer Baracke statt, die kurze Zeit vorher zu diesem Zweck eingerichtet worden war. Ein Raum war zum Auskleiden bestimmt und ein anderer zum Warten, es spielte in den Räumen ziemlich laut das Radio, damit die Gefangenen nicht verstehen konnten, daß sie der Tod erwartet. Aus dem zweiten Raum gingen sie einzeln durch einen Gang in einen kleinen abgeteilten Raum, auf dessen Fußboden sich ein Eisengitter befand. Unter dem Gitter war eine Abflußrinne. Sobald der Kriegsgefangene getötet war, wurde der Leichnam von zwei deutschen Häftlingen weggebracht und das Gitter vom Blute gesäubert. In dem kleinen Raum gab es einen 50 cm großen Ausschnitt. Der Kriegsgefangene stellte sich mit dem Hinterkopf ans Loch und ein Schütze, der sich hinter dem Loch befand, schoß auf ihn. Diese Einrichtung genügte aber praktisch nicht, denn oft traf der Schütze den Gefangenen nicht. Nach acht Tagen schuf man eine neue Vorrichtung. Der Kriegsgefangene wurde ebenso wie vorher an die Wand gestellt, dann ließ man eine Eisenplatte langsam auf seinen Kopf heruntergleiten. Der Kriegsgefangene hatte den Eindruck, als wolle man seinen Wuchs messen. In der Eisenplatte war ein Bolzen, der sich löste und auf den Hinterkopf des Gefangenen einschlug. Dieser stürzte tot zu Boden. Die Eisenplatte wurde mittels eines Fußhebels gehandhabt, der sich in der Ecke dieses Raumes befand. Das bedienende Personal gehörte dem obenerwähnten Sonderkommando an. Auf Bitten der Beamten des Exekutionskommandos hatte ich auch den Apparat zu bedienen. Darauf werde ich später zu sprechen kommen. Die auf diese Weise getöteten Kriegsgefangenen wurden in vier fahrbaren Krematorien, die auf einem Lastkraftwagenanhänger transportiert wurden, verbrannt.
Ich mußte ununterbrochen aus dem Innenlager zum Exekutionsgelände fahren. Ich hatte während der Nacht 10 Fahrten mit einer Pause von 10 Minuten zu machen. Während dieser Pause war ich auch Augenzeuge der Ausführung der Exekution gewesen...«

[Der Nürnberger Prozeß: Achtundfünfzigster Tag. Mittwoch, 13. Februar 1946, P. 77. Digitale Bibliothek Band 20: Der Nürnberger Prozeß, P. 7912 (cf. NP Bd. 7, P. 416-417)]

[cerberus]

It is interesting that neither of you will answer my simple question. Did eight million Jews die at Auschwitz?
Its been answered Fade.

I am not really interested in the Jewish faith as a religion , or any other come to that.

The link Reinhold amounts to what might be a "penny dreadful" . I think Sulla posed some questions about this to you previously , you didn't answer on them.
One of which concerned the conviction of anyone for using such a machine ??

[Basil Fawlty]

Wrong. You never answered the question. Why can Germany keep sending people to the camps and not food?This has already been dealt with in the thread. Stop trying to waste my time, scroll back.



Yes. Anything you can't answer is a distraction. Got it.Yiou never answers questions, everyone knows you for that.



So when he says exactly what I just said:

No serious historian (from Reitlinger in the 1950's and Hilberg in the 1960's to the present) has even accepted the Soviet figure of 4 million, which was based on the erroneous method of estimating maximum capacity for burning bodies and then falsely assuming that that maximum capacity was in reality realized every single day that the gas chamber/crematorium complexes were in existence. Given the Soviet understanding of history as functional rather than truthful, once given, the estimate was never corrected or revised.

We're going to ignore that, and pretend as if both he and I haven't explained why the plaque was changed?
No, but you seem to ignore everything that follows after that. This is Browning's first response he thinks he is dealing with an ignorant member of Joe Public. People here can read the whole exchange for themselves and see your pathetic atempts to evade the issue, yet again

Renk comes back to Browning to point out that court historians still rely on witness estimates that converge on the figures of the rejected Soviet report (this is the whole point: there is a contradiction underlying court historians' methods at arriving at the figures) :

In the Report of the Soviet War Crimes Commission of 6 May, 1945, the
following is written:

"The Germans killed and burned between 10,000 and 12,000 human beings daily
[at Auschwitz-Birkenau]". The Soviet report refers to the testimonies of
witnesses Dragon and Tauber ("who worked in a special commando servicing the
gas chambers") as ratification for the estimated number of daily victims,
based on "theoretical" crematory throughput.
Of Tauber's testimony, Jean-Claude Pressac wrote in his 1989 study (p. 494):
"Here we find the famous multiplication factor of four, of which Dr. Myklos
Nyisli made such abundant and lamentable use in his book that his
credibility was long contested...we do arrive at the [standard] figure of
four million victims in all. This type of imposed falsehood has to be
excused, I would stress, because of the political climate of the period
1945-1950".
Pressac is correct to stress the minimum fourfold exaggerations of Tauber,
Nyisli, and Dragon (p. 171). As members of the Sondercommando, these direct
witnesses would certainly have been "in a position to make accurate [or
"ballpark"] calculations concerning the overall and cumulative killing
operations".
Filip Müller, whose book was published in 1979, also referred to "the
incineration of up to 10,000 corpses in 24 hours" in the crematoria (p. 97),
and SS-officer Franke-Gricksch is alleged to have written in a report for
Himmler in May, 1943:
"Current capacity of the "resettlement action" ovens: 10,000 in 24 hours"
(Pressac, p. 239).

Renk poses the outstanding questions:
My question remains: what credibility can we ascribe to these testimonies
which can only have served to "validate" Soviet post-war falsehoods as to
crematory capacities and actual numbers of victims? What reports or
testimonies should one consult to find corroboration for the death toll as
it is understood today?
Browning dithers a bit in his response:
I think the 10,000 per day figure testified to by Mueller and others was the
maximum reached during the Hungarian deportations, with the use of open pit
burning as well as crematoria. The Soviet report then took this figure and
treated it as a daily average over the whole period of the camp gassings,
when this figure was a maximum reached only on occassion at the height of
the Hungarian deportations. Thus an eyewiteness report that claims that
10,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz in one day is not a confirmation of the
Soviet figure of 4 million.
But as we soon see, this simply will not do.

Renk: The exaggerated figures compiled by the Soviet commission are not, as you
suggested, in themselves a problem for the historian-- they are regarded as
false. The problem lies in the corroborative witness testimony.
The Soviet commission's "interrogation" of Genrich (Henryk) Tauber elicited
the following statement: "All the crematoria incinerated 10-12,000 bodies
per day". Pressac correctly states that Tauber's figures are "connected with
the [Soviet] propaganda of the immediate post-war period" (1989, p.494).And he discusses the others where the same problem obtains.

Renk again:
our hypothesis, namely that "the 10,000 figure testified by Müller and
others was the maximum reached during the Hungarian deportations, with the
use of open-pit burning as well as crematoria" does not correlate to the
specific reference to crematory oven capacity as 10,000/day in each of the
testimonies cited. Tauber and Dragon were "interrogated" by the Soviet
commission and confirmed the Soviet exaggerations verbatim. Franke-Gricksch
is alleged to have given the figure as "jetzige kapazität" (current
capacity) when two Birkenau crematoria were not even completed and the main
camp facility retired (May 1943). Mueller's statement was published in 1979,
and was reiterated in the film "Shoah", where he says that up to 3,000
people were gassed and cremated in 3-4 hours, and that this was repeated
several times in a single day.
In your letter of April 20, you wrote that "an eyewitness report that claims
that 10,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz in one day is not a confirmation
of the Soviet figure of 4 million". The reports mentioned directly refer to
unrealistic crematory capacities in themselves and, in this regard,
represent a convergence of evidence to a deliberate falsehood.
The minimum fourfold exaggeration of overall deaths could not have existed
without a correspondingly exaggerated average daily figure. I would welcome
evidence to the contrary.
And this is the point where Browning rightly realises that he and his colleagues have a serious problem.

Your affecting to be outraged is as convincing as his and, I presume, for the same reason: you have no answer to Renk's analysis.

If they exist they're available.False. Something might exist and be unavailable. Top secret giovernment documents exist but are not available. You seem to believe that such records are avaliable. Answer my question: what archive contains the records for trains leaving Auschwitz?

[Basil Fawlty]

One of which concerned the conviction of anyone for using such a machine ??No, twister. His question was about the indictment and an insinuation that the whole thing has been made up by Revisionists. It was made up alright, by the Soviets, 60 years ago.

[Basil Fawlty]

I want to believe!:222: :rofl: Good answer!

Thank you for the link.Great stuff, isn't it?

[Basil Fawlty]

Right. Ok, now for the tenth time, who made that lampshade?

I mean, you ACKNOWLEDGE that it was produced in 1945. You DO NOT agree that it was made of human skin.

Who made it?You are trying to conflate two things in this post - the "human skin lampshade" allegation and the stuff below which we will come on to in due course. Nothing below supports your contention about the lampshade (or indeed any of the other allegations in connection with human skin). Meanwhile you can address yourself to the outstanding matters elsewhere and then we will come onto this interesting little item.




Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 6

[Page 123]

COPY OF DOCUMENT 3423-PS

SEVENTH MEDICAL LABORATORY
APO 403, c/o PM, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Section of Pathology
25 May 1945

SUBJECT: Identification of Tattooed Skin Hides

TO: COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U.S. Army)

(ATTN: JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL)

1. There were submitted to this laboratory section for
examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. Givin
from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of Case
81 T.J.A.

[Page 124]

2. The description follows:

GROSS: Specimen consists of three pieces of skin
labeled A.B.C.

PIECE A: Measures 13x13cm., is transparent and
shows a woman's head in the center and a sailor
with an anchor near the margin.

PIECE B: Measures 14x13cm., is transparent and is
a tattoo of several anchors resting on an
indefinite black mass. To the right of this mass
is a man's head.

PIECE C: Is truncated, measures 44cm. At the
base. The upper portion is 30 cm. Long and the
sides measure 46 cm. The skin is transparent and
shows two nipples in the upper area. These are 16
cm. Apart. From the nipple level to the umbilicus
is 23 « cm. A large bird, with a wingspread
measuring 28 cm., is present in the center of the
skin, upper part. A black dragon, with fire
coming from the mouth, measures 28 cm. in length
and is present in the center of the skin. To the
left of the dragon is a man in a coat of mail,
with a sword being apparently stuck in the dragon.
Man is approximately 22 cm. in length.

MICROSCOPIC: The tissue consists of bundles of
collagen showing occasional epithelial and sweat
gland remnants. Granular black pigment granules
are seen between some of the bundles.

3. Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three
specimens are tattooed human skin.

For the Commanding Officer,

[signed] REUBEN CARES
Ruben Cares
Major M.C., Chief of pathology

[cerberus]

Are you sure it was made up ?
Sounds like something those horrible Nazis would be using.
Me a twister , never danced it in my life, honest before my time.

[Basil Fawlty]

Are you sure it was made up ?By the Soviets, of course, unless you are prepared to believe that one man can despatch 840,000 Russians on his own in two weeks with this bizarre device which no one has ever seen. Do you believe it?
Sounds like something those horrible Nazis would be using.That's because you have the creduilty of a 5 year old. :222:

[cerberus]

A ten year old , let me get into double figures , please.:)

[Basil Fawlty]

A ten year old , let me get into double figures , please.:)No, definetly 5.

Which recalls an anecodte told by Bertrand Russell about his colleague G.E. Moore "He's a man who believes that everything he was told before the age of 4 is true."

Your vision of history is essentially that of the Victor comic which I'm sure you read as a boy.

[cerberus]

Reinhold , when I was eight I was reading a history of WW2 which was published by Prunells and the Imperial war Museum. My late father bought it in 96 weekly parts ( price was then 3/6d) , I have it in storage in my loft at the present moment in time.
The "Victor" was what it was, a comic.
Would you rather I had read " Signal" perhaps ?
Pity , I would loved to have made double figures , a life times ambiton , dashed .:(

[Basil Fawlty]

Reinhold , when I was eight I was reading a history of WW2 :(And you haven't moved on an inch since then, sad.

[cerberus]

You mean I have not moved on to an alternative view of history.
Actually I have read quite a bit of what has been called " the other side of the hill" , written by german soldiers , sailors and Airmen.
I have not been taken in by "Real History" and a diet of distorted lies.
Sad that some are but there you go.

[Basil Fawlty]

You mean I have not moved on to an alternative view of history.
Actually I have read quite a bit of what has been called " the other side of the hill" , written by german soldiers , sailors and Airmen.
I have not been taken in by "Real History" and a diet of distorted lies.
Sad that some are but there you go.You haven ever bothered to look at so much a single document connecetd with the H in particular, you frequently even boasted such in previous times. You are entirely happy to rely on offical self-congratulatory versions of history - as long as the Anglos come out looking pristine.

[cerberus]

Reinhold , masy I reflect the same view you have on the Axis side.
As has been commented to you before by others , you can only look at the axis side of the fence.
Now as far as the Holocaust goes , I have made a point of reading a bit over the past months and I did make that visit to Auschwitz.
Now I don't put myself forward as an expert like Sulla , but I don't deal in fantasy and fiction.
You are entirely happy to rely on offical self-congratulatory versions of history - as long as the Anglos come out looking pristine.
AS I have already said to you Reinhold I have more than a few books written by German veterans telling their view of events.
What you offer is opinion and speculation based on evidence which is at odds with the facts , now if you wish to believe this that's fine and dandy.
I prefer something more factually based. I make no bones about it , the military aspect interests me more , I also make no bones about reading both German and Allied accounts , actually I read more German if I am honest.

[Basil Fawlty]

Reinhold , masy I reflect the same view you have on the Axis side.
As has been commented to you before by others , you can only look at the axis side of the fence.No, I am trying to redress the balance, ultimately, what really happened is important.
Now as far as the Holocaust goes , I have made a point of reading a bit over the past months and I did make that visit to Auschwitz.Speaking serieously now. You confine yourself to secondary reading, that is, your information is mediated through another. If you read the primary sources (the most important of which are easily accessible online) you would be able to form your own judgements and be better able to assess mainstream or revisionist accounts. As long as you confine yourself to the mainstream secondary literature you will never know, you will always be dependent on one point of view.

[cerberus]

Speaking serieously now. You confine yourself to secondary reading, that is, your information is mediated through another. If you read the primary sources (the most important of which are easily accessible online) you would be able to form your own judgements and be better able to assess mainstream or revisionist accounts.

The David Irving school of thought. "I only use primary sources"
Yes there are links to them at various quarters on line and as you say they can be seen.

Correct me if I am wrong here Reinhold as yet the "revisionist school" of thought have yet to make any point which can stand on its own two feet ?

I ask this because that supergun known as the Rudolf Report was withdrawn by Irving in the face of potential cross examination.
Damp squid.

[cerberus]

No, I am trying to redress the balance, ultimately, what really happened is important.
Which is why I read both sides , something which you ignore.
Just going now to take a gander over :
" Verleihung Genehmigt !" ( "Their Honor was Loyalty!")
An Illustrated and Documentary History of The Knight's Cross Holders of the Waffen -SS and Police 1940-1945. (Jost W. Schneider). ( 1977) J.Bender.
I paid £50 for it , quite hard to get .

[Basil Fawlty]

The David Irving school of thought. "I only use primary sources"
Yes there are links to them at various quarters on line and as you say they can be seen.Irving does only use primary sources (look at his end notes) but that's not the point. The point is you will alwasy be at the mercy of a histiorians judgement if you do not look at the primary sources. Rather than being bothered about that you seem to revel in it. Strange.
Correct me if I am wrong here Reinhold as yet the "revisionist school" of thought have yet to make any point which can stand on its own two feet ?You are indeed wrong. There are two separate matters: what revisionism has shown, and the success of the supporters opf the holohoax to suppress it. (we have been over this a thousand times before)

I ask this because that supergun known as the Rudolf Report was withdrawn by Irving in the face of potential cross examination.
Damp squid.We've been over this before as well.

[Basil Fawlty]

Which is why I read both sides , something which you ignore.
Just going now to take a gander over :
" Verleihung Genehmigt !" ( "Their Honor was Loyalty!")
An Illustrated and Documentary History of The Knight's Cross Holders of the Waffen -SS and Police 1940-1945. (Jost W. Schneider). ( 1977) J.Bender.
I paid £50 for it , quite hard to get .You call this "reading both sides"?

[cerberus]

Its certainly the German side .

[Basil Fawlty]

Its certainly the German side .Of a completely trivial topic which has no bearing on the serious issues which are in contention here.

[cerberus]

Reinhold , its more in tune with what I am interested in, must be the "Victor":p
BTW Did the "Bash Street Kids" look Jewish or is it just me.
Is "My Little Pony" a Neo Nazi attempt to attract new members to the BDM ?

[Basil Fawlty]

Reinhold , its more in tune with what I am interested in, must be the "Victor":p Then why do you insist on getting involved with serious historical questions? The spirit of mischief-making methinks.

[cerberus]

Why was Irving unwilling to go for it ?
He had after all the gun with which he could kill the Holocaust in his hand.
He had only a bill of £2 million to avoid ?
Am I to believe that it had something to do with armed secret service men ?

[Basil Fawlty]

Why was Irving unwilling to go for it ?
He had after all the gun with which he could kill the Holocaust in his hand.
He had only a bill of £2 million to avoid ?
Am I to believe that it had something to do with armed secret service men ?I too thought that was a little bit histrionic, that the judge might be shot. The real outrage is that the judge allowed them in his courtroom with guns. The inference being that those people have inordinate influence.

[cerberus]

On this we have the word of David Irving alone.
The inference being that those people have inordinate influence
Again Mr. Irving.
You have no view on why Rudolf was withdrawn by Irving , the "new" evidence on which he based his appeal ?
He quotes legal procedure , which is odd as Lipstadt and Penquin had their answer ready ?

[cerberus]

Then why do you insist on getting involved with serious historical questions?
Reinhold , the book I mentioned is a factual historical document ,
On looking through it I came on the RK details of Christian Tychsen who was later to be killed in Normandy commanding the Waffen SS Panzer Division "Das Reich".
Yesteray I bought two volumes of a six volume photographic record showing the 1st SS Panzer Corp in the Kursk offensive.
I was pleased to see in one book a series of photographs showing Tychsen , several of these I had not seen before .
One showed him drinking in a state of obvious thirst from his canteen.
Tychsen was no lightweight figure , he still commands instant respect within the Divisions veterans today .
he held the Kights Cross with Oak leavs , German Cross in Gold , EK 1st Class , EK Second Class wound badges for nine seperate wounds , some of them serious and he was killed in action.
I'll tell you how much I respect this man I made a point of seeking out the cross roads at which he was killed and I visited his grave, leaving a British legion cross by his headstone.
Of a completely trivial topic which has no bearing on the serious issues which are in contention here
Now I don't see this excellent soldier nor any of his comrades as a "trivial topic".
Would you class Sepp Deitrich as "trivial" ?

As far as the exchanges here go Reinhold you have to understand that i don't see the discussion of revisionist type material as serious history , its speculation at best.
This has always been the difference between us.
This is not "The spirit of mischief-making methinks" it is how I view things, and I say this not to cause offense or to belittle you in any way, It is simply how I view the subject.

[Basil Fawlty]

On this we have the word of David Irving alone.

Again Mr. Irving.
You have no view on why Rudolf was withdrawn by Irving , the "new" evidence on which he based his appeal ?
He quotes legal procedure , which is odd as Lipstadt and Penquin had their answer ready ?No, Israeli ambassadors go nowhere without armed guards, such is the popularity of representatives of that state.

[Slavic Enforcer]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/medicalexp.jpg



And the Germans of today have the nerve to point with the finger on others.. (because of Dresden and their expulsion from the East)

[Slavic Enforcer]

Oh, I see Richter Freisler reads the thread. Expect the worst! ;)

[Basil Fawlty]

And the Germans of today have the nerve to point with the finger on others.. (because of Dresden and their expulsion from the East)So what is your explanation of this photograph? Who are they, where are they, what is their condition, and, last but not least, what is the provenance of this photo?

[cerberus]

And they went there that morning to "observe".

[cerberus]

And Rudolf ?

[cerberus]

A quick look over the net finds this photograph being attrbuted to the treatment and experiments carried out on children at Auschwitz.
Out side of websites it has been used in several publications , if this is false where did the photograph come from ?
If this post is incorrect date , time place and if possible names would be appreicated.

[Basil Fawlty]

And they went there that morning to "observe".Perhaps you didn't appreciate the point Irving was making. Weapons are forbidden in British courts.

[Basil Fawlty]

A quick look over the net finds this photograph being attrbuted to the treatment and experiments carried out on children at Auschwitz.
Out side of websites it has been used in several publications , if this is false where did the photograph come from ?
If this post is incorrect date , time place and if possible names would be appreicated.We know its used here there and everywhere. I asked what is its provenance. You have not answered the question but you are happy to parrot what some caption says at some website you saw it on.

[cerberus]

Which was why I asked for any other qualification on the photograph and why I asked for exactly that which you demand of me.
I take it you have none or you would have been in with the details.
As far as any medical experimentation goes I recall that you also say this did not take place .

Yes , I am aware of guns and court rooms , Irving has no definate proof that they were "packing heat" , only his own paranoid play to a paranoid audience.

[Basil Fawlty]

Which was why I asked for any other qualification on the photograph and why I asked for exactly that which you demand of me.You have it the wrong way round - you believe it to be some sort of photo of children who have been experimented on, therefore the onus is on you to demonstrate that, hence the question of provenance. After all, it may, as someone has suggested, depict victims of the Bolshevik-caused Ukrainian famine.

[cerberus]

Just curious , who suggested this ? Do you have any details ?

"May" is slightly bigger word than "if".

[WAM]

And the Germans of today have the nerve to point with the finger on others.. (because of Dresden and their expulsion from the East)




The greatest Holocaust in all of history was the one perpetrated on the Eastern European Christians by the Jew Bolsheviks from circa 1917-1940.A conservative estimate would be 20-30 million dead(millions dead courtesy of deliberately inflicted famines a la Ukraine),millions more imprisoned as thought criminals,millions more dispossessed of all their wealth and land until the middle classes were eliminated.
Where are the monuments and museums and films and documentaries and endless magazine articles and books about this crime spree without equal?

Better yet,why weren't any of the perpetrators and financiers of Bolshevism
ever brought to justice?
Why no Nuremberg trials for the mass murdering Jew Communists?
Could it be that a certain group of people who own the Western world approved of what their brethren did to Eastern Europe?

[Chesterdox]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1939-LUNACY-BECOMES-US-by-Adolf-Hitler-INCREDIBLE_W0QQitemZ7006577541QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Jimbo Gomez]

Hey Chester, who is that guy in your avatar?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Hey Chester, who is that guy in your avatar?

Looks like Christopher Walken.

[Anchorage Activist]

It's amazing that many Holocaust disciples forget the truism "to the victors, go the spoils". How many concentration camps were liberated by the Soviet Union and would those Soviets (who had a large percentage of Jews in their government), who virulently hated the Germans, possibly stage some photos and films greatly exaggerating the atrocities in those camps?? Is it within the realm of possibilities that the victors of war would exact as much recompense from their enemies as they possibly could??

There wouldn't be any bias in the Soviets agenda would there?? In the Jews agenda? What sounds better for the victors of WWII: 250,000 Jews died in the course of a world war or 6 million innocent Jews were gassed to death by barbaric Germans??

I've always wondered about this myself. After all, the Soviets massacred 10,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Forest after they swallowed their half of Poland in 1939 and tried to blame it on the Germans. When the Germans took the area in 1941 and uninterred the remains, the Soviet lie was exposed. So their accounts of events must be taken with a grain of salt.

In addition, it would be in the interests of the Soviets to exaggerate the number of Jewish victims to cover up the large number of Germans either murdered or raped as Soviet forces entered Germany late in the war.

[Kodos]

Hey Chester, who is that guy in your avatar?

Christopher Walken playing in a "Saturday Night Live" skit known as "The Continental", his character doesn't go so far as trying to rape women but he will lock them in his apartment and "has built up an immunity to mace".

[IZVN]

Right. Gypsies, Soviet POWs, Communists, Homosexuals, Poles, and regime enemies also suffered.

Holocaust victims abound.


and?. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Trojan]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/medicalexp.jpg

I'm not criticising revisionism here, just curious.

How is the picture captioned and where was it published?

[Richter Freisler]

Spät kommt er, doch er kommt ...

Oh, I see Richter Freisler reads the thread. Expect the worst! ;)
And the Germans of today have the nerve to point with the finger on others.. (because of Dresden and their expulsion from the East)

http://npd-fraktion-sachsen.de/fra_fraktion/2005/zu_der_aktuellen_debatte_anlas.html

Explanation state parliament delegates of the Juergen W. Gansel to the current debate on the occasion of the bombardment of Dresden 1945 the current debate to 60. Anniversary of the bombardment of Dresden and the word choice were correct and important. It was correct, because the term Holocaust of its original word meaning designates the flame hell of Dresden appropriate like no second. The Etymologie does not permit doubts. According to Brockhaus Holocaust is called actually "fire victims", from the Greek word holocaustos coming: "completely burned". In the South German newspaper from 22 January 2005 Heribert Prantl wrote completely correctly that the word "bomb Holocaust" was preformulated by Joerg Friedrich, by calling the bomber fleets "groups of employments", burning luftschutzkeller "crematoria" and the dead ones "exterminations". A salient statement Joerg Friedrichs from its WDR discussion might to them admits to be. Joerg Friedrich was asked in the interview: "the emeritierte Bielefelder historical professor Hans Hans-Ulrich Wehler criticizes your language in the fire: Bomb victims became with you "exterminations" and air protection shelters "crematoria". For Wehler a "unconcealed linguistic equalization" with the Holocaust. As you see that?" Joerg Friedrich: "in a house, which blazes after a bombardment like a torch/flare, the inhabitants are predominantly in the cellar of the house. There temperatures up to 800 degrees develop. The human remnants, which are taken out after cooling of the walls, are Aschenhaeufchen. What happens to a usual corpse in a crematorium of each x-arbitrary German cemetery, happens to them. One may call that for taste reasons not as crematorium, but a people combustion plant. If Wehler means however, the Anstoessige at this whole affair is not the mass burn, but the choice of a word, then I cannot follow that. The shaking is obtained not by words, but by the events." (source: www.wdr.de). Joerg Friedrich by the way participated in the encyclopedia of the Holocaust, why it is the more significant that it grants the mass murder of Dresden Holocaustcharakter. According to data of the State at that time department there were 250,000 dead ones in Dresden. The former deputy Soviet minister of foreign affairs Vladimir Semjonow spoke also of 250.000 dead ones. In the basic work to the documents of the LV time (the national socialism. Documents 1933-1945, given change of Walther Hofer, Frankfurt/Main, 1957), meanwhile in the 49. Edition published, is to be likewise read from 250.000 dead ones to. The international red cross reported in the direct post-war period of 275.000 dead ones. The US journalist Michael Dobbs wrote 1999 in the Washington post office even from 330.000 dead ones in Dresden. To remind it is also to the fact that the British Zeitgeschichtler Alexander McKee (as in the daily paper the world from 25 January 2005 to read was) designated Dresden "German Hiroshima". How highly the number of the dead ones was in view of up to one million humans in the city real will never have to be determined. At the night of 13. on 14 February 1945 the Royal air Force (according to the other basic work end of war 1945 of the authors Rolf Dieter Mueller and Gerd R. Ueberschaer, Frankfurt/Main, 1994) threw approximately 2,650 tons of bombs, under it 650,000 incendiary bombs, on the populated areas of the Dresdner city center. On the next day the US air fleet threw again 781 tons of blowing up and incendiary bombs over the city center lying in close smoke clouds from 15 to 20 square kilometers was thereafter a rubble field. By the way the US air fleet, again according to the book end of war 1945, attacked the burned out city again on 17 April - three weeks before end of war -. That has a genocide character. Before this background from 35.000 dead ones to to speak, is infamous. If according to general estimations nearly one million humans in Dresden were, the refugees narrow-pushed on the Elbwiesen storing, it can not possibly have given with the inferno with the release of over 3.400 tons to bombs "only" 35,000 dead ones. This is a geschoente, the official historiography serving propaganda number. The historicalpolitical robber pistol thereby: the smaller the German victims counted are, the more monstroeser appear the verlustzahlen of other groups of victims. This is Geschichtsklitterung debited to the own people, which violates the memory of the dead ones. Bombardments like Dresden, which Churchill called again according to the book end of war 1945 "acts of terrorism" and "zuegellose destruction", earn both in the word meaning of "massenvernichtung" and of "fire victim" the designation "bomb Holocaust". The Holocaust at the Jews is denied thereby in keinster way, but the Holocaust industry (Norman Finkelstein) leased the term Holocaust, it is not not her term property, it is legally not protected no registered registered trade mark and thus. Therefore one can speak also fact-supported of a "bomb Holocaust" at the Germans. Finally it is to be called in memory that the British diplomat Harold Nicolson 1963 what was committed a crime at Dresden in February 1945 as "the greatest single holocaust by was" designated. Therefore it was correct to talk about "bomb Holocaust". Appearance and word choice in the parliament were not only essentially correct, but historicalpolitically also important, around the excesses of the coming to terms with the past in 60. Not to prevent year of the war defeat if to dam so nevertheless at least. This year with that 60. Anniversary of the bombardment of Dresden and the armed forces surrender is historicalpolitically one the most important since existence of the FRG; it decides 20 on the interpretation sovereignty on the history. Century. The experience generation, which retires still white, how the history of the war was beyond the reeducating dogmas. Here the national opposition with all means must prevent that anti-German historical lies fill the vacuum, which leaves the experience generation. If there are not grandparents any longer, whom for instance from the prehistory of the Second World War, of which war politics of enemy powers or driving the Germans out can report, 60 years after end of war the large strikes hour of the Umerzieher and historical counterfeiters, who still explain to the grandchildren, why their grandparents criminals or moral Schwaechlinge were. Lie may not step to the place of the truth! Historical politics are always also present politics. Apart from the old-Roman method of "bread and plays" (mass prosperity and mass maintenance) the coming to terms with the past was so far a crucial instrument of domination for immobilizing the German people. Should be held by the systematic Schuldneurotisierung of the Germans these from the agency of their vital interests. The Germans are to be morally humiliated, patronized politically and pressed out by injected debt feelings financially. To us as national opposition concerns it to show this people its self statement will. The self-confident agency of its present sinter meals is possible only by a conclusion line under a pathological coming to terms with the past. Conclusion with self degradation rituals and neurotischem debt cult. We want to teach the Germans again the upright course.

Dresden, 26 January 2005, Juergen W. Gansel, Historiker M.A.

Sorry, for the German English translation.
http://www.google.de/language_tools?hl=de

[cerberus]

Accurate , sounds like "Wehr".

[WFHermans]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/medicalexp.jpg

These children have just been saved by the heroic men of the Waffen-SS from one of Stalin's concentration camps.

[cerberus]

QUOTE]These children have just been saved by the heroic men of the Waffen-SS from one of Stalin's concentration camps.
[/QUOTE]
Let me put it another way .
"Same sh1t , same shovel"
Stalin / Hitler ="Sh1t" , the shovel = the concentration camp.
These children have just been saved by the heroic men of the Waffen-SS from one of Stalin's concentration camps.
Which one and when :confused:

[WFHermans]

Concentration camp Wolzek, 23 June 1941.

[cerberus]

Can you post details of capture and as has been asked before proof linking photo to this event.
If you can give me details of the Army Group in which the ,Waffen SS division operated as well as its identity I can check it out.
(Date of capture would be appreciated as well as id of officer commanding those who made the capture).
Strange I have never seen this mentioned before ? Given that most field commanders went on on to attain both high grade decorations and became in their own right "personalities" within celebrated units it won't be hard to find the details , if they exist.
Funny the name rings a bell , when you have the details let me know.
( Must be true I know you wouldn't make it up).

[Trojan]

Concentration camp Wolzek, 23 June 1941.

Bullsh*t

June 23rd is one day after the invasion of the Soviet Union by German, and the camp is the infamous denier haven...

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/wolzek-paradox/

Someone gets a name wrong, and it becomes gospel to revisionists.

[cerberus]

Can only be one of a very few divisions , if its day one it must have been set up in Poland.
Now given the German willingness to make Kaytn Wood front page news around the world I find it hard to believe that such a "find" would be unknown.
I have some divisional histories , but no mention so far.
Strange.:confused:

[cerberus]

I guess WFH has had a memory lapse.:D

[Empress Cheesatine]

Bullsh*t

June 23rd is one day after the invasion of the Soviet Union by German, and the camp is the infamous denier haven...

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/wolzek-paradox/

Someone gets a name wrong, and it becomes gospel to revisionists.

Idiot. The name being wrong really isnt even relevant. The man was tortured extensively and the public has been given a "memoir" by him full of inconsistencies. Im sure you have not heard of this, so you had better ask your Mentor.

By the way, since when did pictures of skinny people prove the existence of a State Program of the Mass Killing of an Entire Race? It doesnt, its a side issue that is spun to make it appear part of a broader program. I dont swallow spin. Germans looked the same when they were stuffed in camps after the war by the Reds.

[cerberus]

Cheesypie - does this memory include the identity of the Waffen SS division which WFH has failed to mention ?
Or was WFH tortured and if so why was I not asked to take part ?:rofl:

Germans looked the same when they were stuffed in camps after the war by the Reds :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Oh come on Cheesypie , did you see the photos of the female guards at Belsen Bergen ?
Did you see Kraemer , he did not look too starved to me.
When did you last get your eyes tested ?

[Empress Cheesatine]

Cheesypie - does this memory include the identity of the Waffen SS division which WFH has failed to mention ?
Or was WFH tortured and if so why was I not asked to take part ?:rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Oh come on Cheesypie , did you see the photos of the female guards at Belsen Bergen ?
Did you see Kraemer , he did not look too starved to me.
When did you last get your eyes tested ?

You know nothing of the post-war starvation and concentration camps? And I thought you were such a great scholar...


http://library.flawlesslogic.com/cm_2.jpg



http://library.flawlesslogic.com/cm_1.jpg



I guess you only notice atrocities commited against Jews... :rolleyes:

[cerberus]

Cp.
I have not claimed to be " the great scholar" , your words my dear - not mine.
If you have some info on the jpegs you posted feel free to enlarge on it , don't let me hold you back.

[Gorilla]

Cheesypie, how many jews were killed? It's a simple question.

[Trojan]

Idiot. The name being wrong really isnt even relevant. The man was tortured extensively and the public has been given a "memoir" by him full of inconsistencies. Im sure you have not heard of this, so you had better ask your Mentor.


You know, as far as respect goes, you rank right up there with Hannover/Hargis. What's your handle on The Revisionist Forum?


By the way, since when did pictures of skinny people prove the existence of a State Program of the Mass Killing of an Entire Race? It doesnt, its a side issue that is spun to make it appear part of a broader program. I dont swallow spin. Germans looked the same when they were stuffed in camps after the war by the Reds.

If the picture was the only evidence your answer may hold some water.

[cerberus]

I guess you only notice atrocities commited against Jews
Key words here which come from your own mouth Cheesyie are.
"ATROCITIES COMMITED AGAINST JEWS" , no alledged , you acknowledge that these crimes did take place.
Thanks, I thought you would never get there.
You are a denier no more . Well done , was it painful ?;)

[Empress Cheesatine]

Key words here which come from your own mouth Cheesyie are.
"ATROCITIES COMMITED AGAINST JEWS" , no alledged , you acknowledge that these crimes did take place.
Thanks, I thought you would never get there.
You are a denier no more . Well done , was it painful ?;)

I never denied there were "crimes," flathead. You are taking selections from my post to apply your spin to them.

These "atrocities," as I have stated countless times, also happened to others - on all sides of the conflict - who were for one reason or another targeted for their ethnic and/or political leanings (the two generally went hand-in-hand).

As I have asked before and now ask again -

Do "atrocities" equal Holocaust? Nope. No more than they do when the Soviets singled out Volksdeutsche.

Must I repeat myself and must you continue your spin? :rolleyes:

By the way, its Bergen-Belsen not Belsen Bergen...

[Empress Cheesatine]

:D You know, as far as respect goes, you rank right up there with Hannover/Hargis. What's your handle on The Revisionist Forum?



If the picture was the only evidence your answer may hold some water.

Whoa, 3 sentences! You're really getting up into some heavy, intellectual writing now. Keep it up!

[cerberus]

Cheesypie , its just a cheesie bit of word play you are engaging in.
When does an atrocity become a crime , when does a crime become a war crime.
When does a series of atrocities becoem a "holocaust" ?
This is not even good word play its avoidence technique.

The Russians didn't have any singling out to do , the Germans singled them out , just as they had the Czechs , the Poles , the French , the Belgians, the Danes , the British etc.
No problem with the Bergen-Belsen , I am forever getting the name the wrong way round.
Have you read "The Third Reich- A New History" by Michael Burleigh ?
Some interesting information in it which might interst you.
I will post it up on the Questions about the Holocaust thread for you , mind you I don't know if you will look upon it as a crime , an atrocity or perhaps even part of the Holocaust !
When you are talking about "spin" and taking selections" may I again remind you of your highly selective snipets taken from Sir Ian Kershaws masterful and widely aclaimed two volume biography of Hitler , perhaps that which you opted to ignore is more more telling , depending on how you view " atrocity" , " crime" or "war crime".
I have no such problem in quoting you lots from Burleigh's history if you wish , will even give you the rferences notes relating to his sources if you wish , can do the same from Kershaws biograpghy if you wish , or indeed from Sir Ian's other books on the Third Reich.
Your willingness to accept them might be open to question as they will be at odds with that which you wish to see and might not exactly fit in with your view of what might be judged to be an " atrocity" , a "crime" or " a war crime".
Spin , I will leave that up to you.
Flat head , at least its new :p

[Trojan]

:D

Whoa, 3 sentences! You're really getting up into some heavy, intellectual writing now. Keep it up!

What, exactly, is the position you are advocating in this thread? Other than word games that is. Or should we just consider you spam?

Wait, must think of something brilliant to say so I can make it to four sentences - damn, nothing comes to mind, I guess I could just insult you, but why bother.

:rolleyes: