Who is still fighting?

[Captain Marinesko]

For years I have not kept up on the news from Ireland. What groups haven't given up their weapons, if any? Are there any serious underground organizations left, and if so, what are their respective ideologies?

Thanks gentlemen.

[Odysseus]

Well I'm sure you know the IRA has hung up its guns, officially. I don't really know otherwise.

[Captain Marinesko]

Well I'm sure you know the IRA has hung up its guns, officially. I don't really know otherwise.


Yeah that I heard about. I figured that their willingness to do so must have pissed somebody off. Basil mentioned in another thread something about a faction that hasn't told anyone where their weapons are.

[Kodos]

The "Real IRA", a marxist group?

[Odysseus]

More or less.

[Basil Fawlty]

Not signed up to the Good Friday Agreement:
INLA - (Irish National Liberation Army) - dangerous Marxist whackjobs and armed wing of the IRSP (Irish Republican Socialist Party) now said to be up to their ears in criminality - they are on cease fire but have not renounced armed struggle and do not accept GFA, but do, if you know what I mean. Most of their armed phase consisted of endless fratricidal feuding with ocassional actions against British forces. Their greatest hit was the assassination of Airey Neave, Thatcher's right hand man using a bomb in his car which detonated as he drove out (mercury tilt) of the Houses of Parliament underground car park in 1979.
INLA is effectively defunct

Continuity IRA (CIRA) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_Irish_Republican_Army

Real IRA (RIRA) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Irish_Republican_Army
The most potent of all these factions and the group most likely behind the appalling Omagh bombing (1998).

That's about it. All of them really should just desist from any armed activities as the absence of any substantial support or credibility for a campaign makes armed actions irresponsible and unconscienable.

[Geist]

Aren't the RIRA known for its more conservative supporters.

The Marxists are/were the stickies OIRA? Or do I have this the wrong way around.

[Basil Fawlty]

Aren't the RIRA known for its more conservative supporters.

The Marxists are/were the stickies OIRA? Or do I have this the wrong way around.The Officials "Stickies" (so called because of the adhesive backing to their Easter Lily as opposed to the Provos who used a pin) were Stalinists and are a dreadful crowd. Eoghean Harris was their chief ideologue, De rossa, and Pat Rabbite were all Stickies. They are still a fairly toxic influence in the media, especially RTE.

[Geist]

I actually know more about them due to the role they have in preceding the Provos (and therefore being discussed in any decent book on them) so I'm more interested in whether the RIRA could be construed as traditionalist which is, for some reason, the opinion I have formed of them.

[Basil Fawlty]

I actually know more about them due to the role they have in preceding the Provos (and therefore being discussed in any decent book on them) so I'm more interested in whether the RIRA could be construed as traditionalist which is, for some reason, the opinion I have formed of them.More or less, yes. They would be those who were always suspicious of politics during a military campaign - the Armalite/ballot box strategy. They realised the two were mutually exclusive as PSF conceived of it because admission to the political process would always be conditional on disavowal of armed struggle and disarmament, but then without the military dimension, the political party is ineffectual as a liberation movement leadership. They just become absorbed into the system they are supposed to be abolishing. This is what is what is happening now.

[cerberus]

The other side of the Hill - the "loyalists" - like INLA - they have their money making rackets which still go on and it is also worth asking who makes all the £'s out of smuggled cigs. and "genuine white diesel" , there is a system of money making which exists outside of the law which has almost become "cultural."
Unfortunately there exists criminal empires which once finded para military needs and it seems the money making still goes on , just wonder where the money now goes - into what pockets ?

[Flavius Claudius Julianus]

If you are looking for Traditional Irish Republicanism then i would suggest looking into Republican Sinn Fein. Also known as RSF.

[Masty]

Way to make a 1st post..... :duh:

[Flavius Claudius Julianus]

Way to make a 1st post..... :duh:

I know probably not the most impressive 1st post.

I had hoped that anyone interested could take the time to look up the info with the name provided.

Anyone wishing to learn more can go to http://www.rsf.ie/

I would recommend reading the document for Eire Nua as I think this would give people the best idea of what RSF is all about.

[Masty]

It was the fact that you felt the need to advertise republicoon shite fein in yer 1st two posts that made me laugh.

http://www.rsf.ie/motion00.htm allow me highlight points 17, 18, 19 and 20. of the 2000 'national conference' :

17. That this Ard-Fheis asserts the common bond of oppressed humanity and stands firmly against racism in all its forms.

18. That this Ard-Fheis opposes racism and arguments that provide a cover for racism.

19. That this Ard-Fheis deplores the growth of racism in Ireland.

20. That this Ard-Fheis calls for more tolerance to be shown to ethnic minorities in our country, including the Travelling community, refugees and people of different colour and race.

[Basil Fawlty]

It was the fact that you felt the need to advertise republicoon shite fein in yer 1st two posts that made me laugh.

http://www.rsf.ie/motion00.htm allow me highlight points 17, 18, 19 and 20. of the 2000 'national conference' :

17. That this Ard-Fheis asserts the common bond of oppressed humanity and stands firmly against racism in all its forms.

18. That this Ard-Fheis opposes racism and arguments that provide a cover for racism.

19. That this Ard-Fheis deplores the growth of racism in Ireland.

20. That this Ard-Fheis calls for more tolerance to be shown to ethnic minorities in our country, including the Travelling community, refugees and people of different colour and race.I can see why a loyalist bigot might find this objectonable, but beyond that marginal audience, what point are you trying to make?

[Masty]

I can see why a loyalist bigot might find this objectonable, but beyond that marginal audience, what point are you trying to make?eh Baz, yer condescending tones don't fuckin' work on me, don't ye know that by now? "marginal audience"? The Phora? Or is it you just can't grasp the FACT that there are 2 countries on the island of Ireland, that is yer dilemma pal - not mine. You see, most people would class republicoon shite fein's point of view as 'marginal'.

[Basil Fawlty]

eh Baz, yer condescending tones don't fuckin' work on me, don't ye know that by now? "marginal audience"? The Phora? Or is it you just can't grasp the FACT that there are 2 countries on the island of Ireland, that is yer dilemma pal - not mine. You see, most people would class republicoon shite fein's point of view as 'marginal'.I agree with you on that, but the policy items you posted are not marginal, they would be pretty much common to all parties here these days.

Nice to see you after all this time. ;)

[Masty]

I agree with you on that, but the policy items you posted are not marginal, they would be pretty much common to all parties here these days.Yes and No. Media politics, like the majority of so-called politicians they portray what what the media want them to portray, NOT what the vast majority of the people are saying and thinking. Alas, with republicans, they usually mean the mult-culturalist imposed propaganda.

Nice to see you after all this time. ;)How does that crap saying go again? I didn't go away, y'know..... hello by-the-way.

:bbbat:

[cerberus]

Likewise Masty welcome back from "Stumble Inn".

[Masty]

Likewise Masty welcome back from "Stumble Inn".I'm talking to you via the internutz, LIVE from Stumble Inn's lap dancing lounge.

:)

[Flavius Claudius Julianus]

Masty for a guy so worried about the multi cult you have odd politics.

Unionists have the Shoukri bros.
Unionists have Ian P. helping set up orange orders in Africa.
And Unionists fly Zionist flags over their areas.

And your worried about RSF's positions? Take a look at your own.

[cerberus]

Ian Paisley is and always was an Empire builder , his primary interest I think has always been himself and his own prestiege - his own political party , his own "independent orange order" , his onw "Free" Church , "Ulster flags in Africa" is really not much of a surprise.
Ulster flags and Star of David flags it is a superficial connection at best - not true depth or meaning they reflect the mindset nothing more.
Shoukri bros - only in N.I. beacuse they failed to get the position of doormen at Harrods.
Only in Northern Ireland is the bottomline.
Who are "still at war" - a good question - I think money is still being made but increasingly it is just "traditional" criminality - good old crime being made to pay.

[cerberus]

Masty
I'm talking to you via the internutz, LIVE from Stumble Inn's lap dancing lounge.
You mean " The Grass Shirt" / "Biggles Babe Thread" . :)

[Hakluyt]

Masty for a guy so worried about the multi cult you have odd politics.

Unionists have the Shoukri bros.
Unionists have Ian P. helping set up orange orders in Africa.
And Unionists fly Zionist flags over their areas.

And your worried about RSF's positions? Take a look at your own.
Welcome, troll. None of these examples are "positions."

There have been Orange lodges in Africa for blacks since the 19th century. Encouraging a Christian presence in Africa bears nothing on the merits of immigration.

The "Zionist flags" (i.e better known as the flag of Israel) you are referring to come from two JPGs posted on the internet about 5 years ago, flown as a joke - which should be obvious, because they were flown above their own flag, which no loyalist would do of his own accord (they were not even Ulster flags, but UFF flags, but anything that isn't an ugly tricolour looks the same to you). I challenge you to take a trip round NI and snap us some more. As if sympathy for Israel should discredit anyone in the first place.

[Basil Fawlty]

Welcome, troll. None of these examples are "positions."

There have been Orange lodges in Africa for blacks since the 19th century. Encouraging a Christian presence in Africa bears nothing on the merits of immigration.

The "Zionist flags" (i.e better known as the flag of Israel) you are referring to come from two JPGs posted on the internet about 5 years ago, flown as a joke - which should be obvious, because they were flown above their own flag, which no loyalist would do of his own accord (they were not even Ulster flags, but UFF flags, but anything that isn't an ugly tricolour looks the same to you). I challenge you to take a trip round NI and snap us some more. As if sympathy for Israel should discredit anyone in the first place.Your interpretation of this is decidedly lopsided. The Loyalist identification with Zionism is not a joke, nor is the flying of the Zionist flag a one off joke for the cameras. The Promised Land/Chosen People theme is prominent in Planter mythology where the native Irish are cast in the role of the Canaanites. They in their turn identify with the Palestinians and sometimes fly the Palestinian flag. Sympathy for Israel is by extension sympathy for colonialism and expropriation.

[Hakluyt]

Your interpretation of this is decidedly lopsided. The Loyalist identification with Zionism is not a joke, nor is the flying of the Zionist flag a one off joke for the cameras. The Promised Land/Chosen People theme is prominent in Planter mythology where the native Irish are cast in the role of the Canaanites. They in their turn identify with the Palestinians and sometimes fly the Palestinian flag. Sympathy for Israel is by extension sympathy for colonialism and expropriation.
I'm well aware of this identification. I didn't deny it at all - but it's insignificant when it comes to alleging cognitive dissonance about "multiculturalism" as this new poster has. Flying a "Zionist flag" above an Ulster flag, is, however, to be taken as a joke by any rational person.

Ulster also has in common with Israel it's struggle for legitimacy on the international stage, where it is treated with a similar double standard by the morally confused. Both have histories of conquest and displacement, and face a liberal international community that feels the need assign collective guilt to the current generations in the two countries. There's good reason for Ulster to identify with Israel and vice-versa.

[Basil Fawlty]

I'm well aware of this identification. I didn't deny it at all - but it's insignificant when it comes to alleging cognitive dissonance about "multiculturalism" as this new poster has. Flying a "Zionist flag" above an Ulster flag, is, however, to be taken as a joke by any rational person.Ok, well then the reply to that particular point he made would be that flying the Palestinian flag would surely be the same. I imagine he would not like to go there.
Ulster also has in common with Israel it's struggle for legitimacy on the international stage, where it is treated with a similar double standard by the morally confused.
Both have histories of conquest and displacement, and face a liberal international community that feels the need assign collective guilt to the current generations in the two countries. There's good reason for Ulster to identify with Israel and vice-versa.First of all I really do wish you would not identify the Province of Ulster with the descendents of the Planters, as if the 3 counties south of the border and the very large native Irish population don't exist. Not even the unionists would assert this anymore. Things have moved on quite radically.

The comparison between NI and Israel breaks down now. The descendents of the Planters have formally abandoned their previous supremacist position and have signed up to parity of esteem, mutual recognition and equal rights. The Zionists have not done this in respect of the Palestinians, even the ones internal to their state. Because of this, the northern Protestants are now in a morally superior position to that of the Zionists.

[Hakluyt]

Ok, well then the reply to that particular point he made would be that flying the Palestinian flag would surely be the same. I imagine he would not like to go there.
Sure. I usually only see this mentioned when Republicans are attacking Loyalists for flying the Israeli flag in the first place.

First of all I really do wish you would not identify the Province of Ulster with the descendents of the Planters, as if the 3 counties south of the border and the very large native Irish population don't exist. Not even the unionists would assert this anymore. Things have moved on quite radically.

The comparison between NI and Israel breaks down now. The descendents of the Planters have formally abandoned their previous supremacist position and have signed up to parity of esteem, mutual recognition and equal rights. The Zionists have not done this in respect of the Palestinians, even the ones internal to their state. Because of this, the northern Protestants are now in a morally superior position to that of the Zionists.
I don't identify it solely with the planters, but this period of its history is indelible and its most significant historical point of reference. The Protestant Ulstermen, at any rate, like the Israelis, desire to maintain a demographic consistency in their own lands. If this requires shedding some territory, they will probably be willing to do so, and they have with the southern counties in the past, and as Israel has done and will likely do again in the near future.

Equal rights in Israel (a dubious claim to begin with) is a much more superficial question and doesn't negate the broader comparison being made. No one is trying to say the societies are identical in every last way.

[Flavius Claudius Julianus]

"There have been Orange lodges in Africa for blacks since the 19th century. Encouraging a Christian presence in Africa bears nothing on the merits of immigration."

And being against racism towards migrants and travelers does not mean one is in favor of mass immigration.

"Ulster also has in common with Israel it's struggle for legitimacy on the international stage..."

First of all it's not Ulster. Ulster like the rest of Ireland has been partitioned. Secondly Northern Ireland is not legitimate it is a gerrymandered state
whose only goal it seems was to allow Britain to hold onto some shred of its former imperial "glory".

"...flying the Palestinian flag would surely be the same. I imagine he would not like to go there."

I have no problem going there as the Palestinians like the Basques are another oppressed nation and the flying of that flag is a sign of solidarity. As the Unionists flying the Zionist flag is a sign of their solidarity with the Zionists.

As for the Shoukri Bros.I just think its funny for masty and people like him to claim to be against immigration and then welcome with open arms two common criminals like these.

[Hakluyt]

And being against racism towards migrants and travelers does not mean one is in favor of mass immigration.
And no one suggested it is.

First of all it's not Ulster. Ulster like the rest of Ireland has been partitioned. Secondly Northern Ireland is not legitimate it is a gerrymandered state
That Ulster had the foresight to 'gerrymander' (not an appropriate term, since the partition had broad cultural motivations rather than mere electoral ones), rather than attempt to hold on to provinces with a population that did not want to be part of the same polity, is more of a testament to its maturity than anything else. Of course Northern Ireland is only part of Ulster, but the dominant part, and its inhabitants regard themselves as Ulstermen, so the reference is appropriate.

whose only goal it seems was to allow Britain to hold onto some shred of its former imperial "glory".
The Ulster Covenant of 1912 was signed by 471,414 people. The history of unionism since Gladstone has been one of Ulster's determination against London's indifference.

[Basil Fawlty]

Sure. I usually only see this mentioned when Republicans are attacking Loyalists for flying the Israeli flag in the first place.Its an easy stick to beat them with, a stick they gave them.
I don't identify it solely with the planters, but this period of its history is indelible and its most significant historical point of reference. The Protestant Ulstermen, at any rate, like the Israelis, desire to maintain a demographic consistency in their own lands. If this requires shedding some territory, they will probably be willing to do so, and they have with the southern counties in the past, and as Israel has done and will likely do again in the near future.Actually this is not correct and does not reflect the expressed position of the unionists. They have formally agreed to unite with the rest of the country if a majority of the six counties so wills it.
This is the solemn agreement that now exists between all parties on this island:
1. The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo- Irish Agreement, they will:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status,
whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or
a sovereign united Ireland;
(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

Equal rights in Israel (a dubious claim to begin with) is a much more superficial question and doesn't negate the broader comparison being made.Its not superfical if you are Palestinian.
No one is trying to say the societies are identical in every last way.The comparison is only possible between contemporary Israel and a status quo in the north that no longer exists.

[Hakluyt]

Its an easy stick to beat them with, a stick they gave them.
"They" being the UFF. The "stick" being an Israeli flag raised above the UFF's own flag circa 2003. What twaddle.

Actually this is not correct and does not reflect the expressed position of the unionists. They have formally agreed to unite with the rest of the country if a majority of the six counties so wills it.
This is the solemn agreement that now exists between all parties on this island:
The general principles of the Good Friday agreement are good, but it's naive to assume it's the end all of NI's political future. Barely a majority of unionists supported it initially, and only after the language was considerably watered down. Unionists did offer their lukewarm support the because they were aware of their majority status, thus it gave official recognition to their democratic will. But we cannot extrapolate from it the hypothetical reaction of the unionists to a majority decision to unite with Ireland (tough this seems be less popular idea with each passing year anyway so will likely not come to a head).

Its not superfical if you are Palestinian.
The dubious part was mentioning Palestinians within Israel (better known as Israeli Arabs). Obviously the condition of Palestinians in the West Bank aren't comparable to anything in NI.

The comparison is only possible between contemporary Israel and a status quo in the north that no longer exists.
The comparison is primarily one of international relations, which is completely apt, and I would like to see you dispute. The second is their will to demographic autonomy, the popularity of which you may dispute, but is historically borne out and remains a powerful force (Israel has its anti-nationalist naysayers as well).

[Basil Fawlty]

"They" being the UFF. The "stick" being an Israeli flag raised above the UFF's own flag circa 2003. What twaddle.I don't know what you mean by twaddle in this context. The loyalist death squads (British proxies) are past their use by date and belong in the dustbin of history. This is residual tribalism.
The general principles of the Good Friday agreement are good, but it's naive to assume it's the end all of NI's political future. GFA is the sole defining document for the future of this island. It even contains the detailed modalities for reunification. Unless the thing is revised on a multilateral basis, its the only game in town.
Barely a majority of unionists supported it initially, and only after the language was considerably watered down.They conceded a great deal. If you doubt this compare Paisley's stated position of, say, twenty years ago with that of his stated and actual position now. We are in another universe.
They reversed their original majoritarianist position when they signed up to parity of esteem, equal rights and power-sharing. That's a big step forward for them. You might see it as a defeat or something to be regretted or at least grudgingly accepted, I see it as major shift away from a colonialist siege mentality which can only be good, for them, as well as everyone else.
Unionists did offer their lukewarm support the because they were aware of their majority status, thus it gave official recognition to their democratic will. Except that they renoucne majoirtarianism ias a basis for self-government. This is the absolute end of the Craigist state.
But we cannot extrapolate from it the hypothetical reaction of the unionists to a majority decision to unite with Ireland (tough this seems be less popular idea with each passing year anyway so will likely not come to a head).That majority is declining anyway, its much narrower than it was back in the days of unionist supremacy. If a majority so will reunification then that will be the outcome. There is no provision for repartition in the GFA, it is either the status quo or reunification.
Therefore the only way of avoiding it in the face of such a majority is by dirty tricks on behlaf of the British or something likewise from the unionists and supported by the British. At that point they will be committing a foul. It is very likely that it would all slide back into violence of some kind.
The dubious part was mentioning Palestinians within Israel (better known as Israeli Arabs). Obviously the condition of Palestinians in the West Bank aren't comparable to anything in NI.I was refering to the condition of Palsetinians within the state of Israel who are second class citizens. The native Irish in NI are not second-class citizens anymore which is why the comparison breaks down.
The comparison is primarily one of international relations, which is completely apt, and I would like to see you dispute.No, the points of comparison were internal. The second is their will to demographic autonomy, the popularity of which you may dispute, but is historically borne out and remains a powerful force (Israel has its anti-nationalist naysayers as well).That's as maybe, but then so what?

[Hakluyt]

I don't know what you mean by twaddle in this context. The loyalist death squads (British proxies) are past their use by date and belong in the dustbin of history. This is residual tribalism.
It's twaddle in the context of this thread. Used in a sentence: "Flavius Claudius Julianus has injected nothing but useless twaddle into this discussion." I agree re: the dustbin. It's almost as if their mention served no purpose whatsoever.

GFA is the sole defining document for the future of this island. It even contains the detailed modalities for reunification. Unless the thing is revised on a multilateral basis, its the only game in town.
+
They conceded a great deal. If you doubt this compare Paisley's stated position of, say, twenty years ago with that of his stated and actual position now. We are in another universe.
They reversed their original majoritarianist position when they signed up to parity of esteem, equal rights and power-sharing. That's a big step forward for them. You might see it as a defeat or something to be regretted or at least grudgingly accepted, I see it as major shift away from a colonialist siege mentality which can only be good, for them, as well as everyone else.
+
Except that they renoucne majoirtarianism ias a basis for self-government. This is the absolute end of the Craigist state.
You are only repeating yourself here - things I don't disagree with - and you did not address my responses. You're also confusing the issue a little bit: renouncing majoritarianism doesn't necessarily mean renouncing the desire to live as a majority in a given space. What it means is no longer imposing certain standards on the minority, and offering it more cultural recognition, developments I completely support. However, this does not suggest that the unionist population, faced with a scenario in which it could actually lose a vote on ROI unification would not be inclined to re-partition. In the meantime, the GFA officially recognises their demographic/democratic will, so they are content with it. ("The principle that the constitutional future of Northern Ireland should be determined by the majority vote of its citizens"). It's naive to assume they would be content with it otherwise.

I was refering to the condition of Palsetinians within the state of Israel who are second class citizens. The native Irish in NI are not second-class citizens anymore which is why the comparison breaks down.
+
No, the points of comparison were internal.
+
That's as maybe, but then so what?
The Canaan analogy was your own comparison, friend, which I said I don't deny exists, but is not as important as other similarities. I suggested the identification between the two is mostly about international recognition, self-government, and collective guilt related to conquest. Both have strong movements that demand demographic superiority at any cost (while neither movement in either country is currently ascendant or in control of government). Once more, no one is comparing the two societies in their totality.