Jewish "supremacism"?

[humanist]

I have seen many times members of this forum claiming that Jews are, by definition, supremacist or ethnocentric. I actually did not want to respond this way -- creating yet another Jew-related, and by extension Jew-bashing, thread -- but I see no alternative.

Ideologically, many Jews are staunch supporters of virtually complete equality. A believing Jew believes her/his faith a correct one, as does any person of faith, but this would not make her/him a supremacist; it would but make her/him a believer. Granted, he/she would believe God chose the Jewish people, but this is not a simple matter; first, any person may join the Jewish faith, and the gates are open (I hate stories of the Rabinate denying wishful converts on controversial grounds) to all. Second, there is a story that in fact Israel was the last nation to be asked, the others refused; the meaning being that Jews do not think themselves superior, and it is only because of this that they were chosen; thus their 'chosenness' is unconnected to supremacy.

Regarding the talmud, I must say it is a mystery to me. It is actually quite fortunate to me that I may take any statement of the talmud at face value, since it is absolutely certain that the statements are not literal, and to understand it literally is madness. Most Jews do not fully understand the talmud, and do not follow it blindly, though most of them do follow Jewish law that was in fact derived sensibly -- with amazing logic at times.

[tempus fugit]

I'm no expert, but don't they believe they are the chosen people and think everyone else is going to hell?

[humanist]

I'm no expert, but don't they believe they are the chosen people and think everyone else is going to hell?
Jewish people do beileve that they are chosen. However, any person may join the Jewish faith. Second, Jews believe that Israel was the last nation to be asked, the others refused: thus, their 'chosenness' is unconnected to ethnic supremacy.

Finally, almost every religion claims it believes in the one and only true God. Therefore, to believe in religion X automatically leads you to preference people who believe in religion X.

[tempus fugit]

I thought you needed a Jewish mother to become Jewish?

[jcs]

Jewish people do beileve that they are chosen... Jews believe that Israel was the last nation to be asked, the others refused: thus, their 'chosenness' is unconnected to ethnic supremacy.
This could be interpreted differently:
All other nations had their chance, but were too stupid to take it, hence Jews are superior.

any person may join the Jewish faith.
Judaism is an ethnic religion. The idea that anyone can join the faith is fairly nonsensical from a more orthodox perspective. Of course, more liberal Jews have no problem with people joining, and these liberal Jews are the most common in the West.

[humanist]

As I have stated before, being "the chosen people" has not a thingto do wiht being better or more privileged than everyone else. It is to state that the Jews have a duty to help make the world a better place (tikkun olam) through good works and mitzvot. Not much different from many other religions.

Jews are a people descended from one of the twelve tribes of Jacob. And Judaism also happens to be a religion. If you are born into Judaism you are considered part of the b'nai Israel (the children of Israel), even although you might not be considered religious. If you convert you are also considered part of the b'nai Israel even although you have no Jewish parents. In point of fact, in the Jewish religion it is prohibited from mentioning or reminding a convert of her or his non-Jewish heritage. There are converts (like Ruth), secular Jews (like Esther), and non-Jews (like Job) who are revered by Jews in general.

I have seen on this forum extremely distorted views of Judaism, treating it as though it be some form of messed up, archaic Christianity, which it most certainly is not.

[Starr]

It is to state that the Jews have a duty to help make the world a better place (tikkun olam) through good works and mitzvot.

Yes, the noble and honorable jews feel they have a duty to lift up all of "humanity" and make the world a better place. Higher moral beings are the Jewish people. They have done such a great job of this. Probably why they are so loved and admired the world over. LOL.

Thanks for that. It is sunday night, the weekend is over and I am not in the best mood and needed that good laugh.:rofl:

[Jonathan]

I don't have much to say about Jews, but on a somewhat related topic:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-2014997,00.html

[cerberus]

Does seem a bit daft and OTT. (The adviser's comments).

[humanist]

To elaborate on the points I made above (as if this needs to be demonstrated!)
All other nations had their chance, but were too stupid to take it - therefore Jews are superior.
Of course one could interpret that another way, but why would one? By the way, stupidity has nothing to do with it, the story has religous and moral issues replacing intellectual ones. As usual, it is not meant to be taken literally (since God never "asked" the Israelites if they wish to be chosen - he made a promise to Abraham). It is there is to make a point: it was not a random choice, and all were given a choice before the final verdict.

Judaism is an ethnic religion. The idea that anyone can join the faith is fairly nonsensical from a more orthodox perspective.
On the contrary, conversion to Judaism is not only a phenomenon of today; it is mentioned specifically in the Torah. The "ger", or convert, has special rules and is considered one of the three categories of people protected "personally" by god (the other two being the orphan and the widow), since the ger often had no family (often gerim were estranged from their families for converting). The most orthodox of Jews accept and embrace the conversion of Gentiles into Judaism.

[Basil Fawlty]

I don't have much to say about Jews, but on a somewhat related topic:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-2014997,00.htmlTypical insolence.

I suspect this has deep roots. Ireland was the first European country to recognise the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people back in thelate 70's or early 80's.