Communists: just as racist as capitalists

[humanist]

--From 1917 onward, Soviet Communists persecuted Central Asians and other ethnic minorities. They were also heavily prejudiced against people viewed as "CHERNOZHOPY" (which is the Russian equivalent of 'nigger').
--Post-WWII anti-Semitism, beginning with Stalin. (see: Doctor's Plot, shutting down of Yiddish theatres and other Jewish cultural centres, shooting Jewish cultural leaders, among many other anti-Semitic horrors).
--Anti-Israel prejudice among Communists (notice how anti-Semitism has drifted from the far-right to the far-left).
--Communist Chinese racism toward the people of Tibet and the people of Xinjiang; this has been going on since 1949 and continues to this day.
--The racism of the Khmer rouge towards the Muslim Chams as well as their xenophopia with regard to the Vietnamese.
--The continuing Red Lao racism toward the Hmong.
--Many USSR citizens up to the 1970s and 1980s were transmigrants. The Slavs settled in non-Russian regions, and frequently perceived the indigenous peoples in the areas they settled as "inferiors". There was even a residential segregation similar to that which exists between Blacks and Caucasians in northern United States cities.

These are just a few of the MANY examples of Communist Racism.

[jcs]

Of course, these are simply historical incidents and in no way demonstrate that communism/socialism is inherently bigoted.

On the other hand, I must again say: I am warming up to socialism. :p

[Felix the Cat]

Nanjing Anti-African Protests of 1988-89 (http://diaspora.northwestern.edu/mbin/WebObjects/DiasporaX.woa/wa/displayArticle?atomid=711)

[Roland]

Of course, these are simply historical incidents and in no way demonstrate that communism/socialism is inherently bigoted.

On the other hand, I must again say: I am warming up to socialism. :p

Its easy to warm up to something so vague. There is Marxist socialism and Utopian socialism. The latter seems to be favored on this board.

As you indicated, Marxist socialism doesn't necessitate racial segregation, though it doesn't forbid it. With economics being the crux of the Marxist world-view, though, political power (in Marxian thought) resides, in the majority, with non-Whites.

[OVERWATCH]

"Racism" was rampant in the Soviet armed forces, as reported by defectors. Units comprised of one ethnic group would be stationed in areas populated by another ethnic group, in order to cut down on the black marketeering of military goods, due to language barriers but also mistrust between the groups.

Caucasians(from the caucasus region) were called 'Zhopmordyi'(black ass, a grave insult), Asians were called 'Churka'(wood chip, meaning dumb and worthless), Jews were called 'Zhid', etc.

Also note Stalin's planned resettlement of Soviet Jews in the Eastern province of Birobidzhan (http://www.swarthmore.edu/Home/News/biro/).

[Excorcism]

There has always been a distrust of the Xinjiang by the Chinese population in the east.

[Gleb]

--From 1917 onward, Soviet Communists persecuted Central Asians and other ethnic minorities. They were also heavily prejudiced against people viewed as "CHERNOZHOPY" (which is the Russian equivalent of 'nigger').
--Many USSR citizens up to the 1970s and 1980s were transmigrants. The Slavs settled in non-Russian regions, and frequently perceived the indigenous peoples in the areas they settled as "inferiors". There was even a residential segregation similar to that which exists between Blacks and Caucasians in northern United States cities.


No, it's not true. At least not to such a degree (compared to what was happening in the US, for example, where they even had separate restrooms for blacks and whites, it was nothing).


"Racism" was rampant in the Soviet armed forces, as reported by defectors. Units comprised of one ethnic group would be stationed in areas populated by another ethnic group, in order to cut down on the black marketeering of military goods, due to language barriers but also mistrust between the groups.


That might be true, yes.

[OVERWATCH]

There has always been a distrust of the Xinjiang by the Chinese population in the east.

True. Plus, Han Chinese haven't been very keen on South Asians either.

"Racism" or ethnocentrism, is a human (HUEman) phenomenon.

Look at Africa, tall people vs. short people in ethnic genocide(e.g., rwanda). The ugly scourge of heightism rears it's head. :D

Tribalism is just innate human nature, people who think it can be eradicated are insulated in suburbia and completely fooling themselves.

[Billy Score]

The soviet policy wasn't racist, it was simply common sense. Who better to police a ukranian than a jew? There is no chance of defection since one hates the other. And so forth.

[OVERWATCH]

The soviet policy wasn't racist, it was simply common sense. Who better to police a ukranian than a jew? There is no chance of defection since one hates the other. And so forth.

I know that policy wasn't "racist" it just pointed out that there was probably just as much "racism" in the Soviet Union, as anywhere else.\\

Maybe even more, considering that the Soviet Union was arguably more multiethnic than any other State.

[Fade the Butcher]

On the other hand, I must again say: I am warming up to socialism. :p

I second that.

[Leif]

--From 1917 onward, Soviet Communists persecuted Central Asians and other ethnic minorities.

How?

--Post-WWII anti-Semitism, beginning with Stalin. (see: Doctor's Plot, shutting down of Yiddish theatres and other Jewish cultural centres, shooting Jewish cultural leaders, among many other anti-Semitic horrors).

Stalin was not an anti-semite- he married a Jew and had multiple Jewish comrades. As for the Doctor's Plot, it was quite suspicious that months after he ordered the arrest of these doctors, he died a mysterious death, and then Beria released them...

--Anti-Israel prejudice among Communists (notice how anti-Semitism has drifted from the far-right to the far-left).

Being anti-Israel is not being anti-semitic. There are many Jews against Israel.

--Communist Chinese racism toward the people of Tibet and the people of Xinjiang; this has been going on since 1949 and continues to this day.

...Are we discussing racism from the Communist Party, or the Chinese people in general? I really have no clue what you're talking about. Explain.

--The continuing Red Lao racism toward the Hmong.

Explain.

--Many USSR citizens up to the 1970s and 1980s were transmigrants. The Slavs settled in non-Russian regions, and frequently perceived the indigenous peoples in the areas they settled as "inferiors". There was even a residential segregation similar to that which exists between Blacks and Caucasians in northern United States cities.

How is this racism?

[humanist]

I am not going to "explain" universally recognised historical facts, revisionist. I will say one thing, however. Your ignorance of Russian history is astounding. Get educated. Haven't you heard of Zhdanivshchina? This is the Stalinist repression of the intellectuals, quasi-Hitlerian in character. In these troubled times the Jews were branded by Stalin as "cosmopolitans". The term "rootless cosmopolitans" was applied directly to the Jews themselves, and Jewish culture and learning were systematically repressed. In 1949 all Yiddish publications and the Yiddish theatre were shut down, and in 1950 virtually all leaders of Jewish culture were killed or persecuted. Zhdonov ousted many Jewish men from influential positions in the party's Secretariat for the admiration of Jewish culture. He acknowledged his gratitude to "Comrade Stalin personally".

In Stalin's times, a good Soviet citizen had to be anti-Semitic, chauvinistic, and driven by a passionate faith in the bright communist future (from which Jews would inevitably be excluded, because of narrow Socialist class-hatred which classifies Jews as "bourgeois"). Soviet poster art he was expected to judge as true art, while racistically pronouncing Jazz music as evil. Racist horrors abounded in Soviet Times.

[Fade the Butcher]

This is the Stalinist repression of the intellectuals, quasi-Hitlerian in character.

Like Martin Heidegger, right?

[Slavic Enforcer]

--The Slavs settled in non-Russian regions, and frequently perceived the indigenous peoples in the areas they settled as "inferiors". There was even a residential segregation similar to that which exists between Blacks and Caucasians in northern United States cities.


I perceive the Non-Slavic people of former CCCP also as inferior (to Slavs).

That's just normal and how it shall be.

By the way, Stalin and some other leaders of the former Soviet Union were Non-Slavs.
I have never heard of a US American President who was Black.

[Felix the Cat]

I am not going to "explain" universally recognised historical facts, revisionist. I will say one thing, however. Your ignorance of Russian history is astounding. Get educated. Haven't you heard of Zhdanivshchina? This is the Stalinist repression of the intellectuals, quasi-Hitlerian in character. In these troubled times the Jews were branded by Stalin as "cosmopolitans". The term "rootless cosmopolitans" was applied directly to the Jews themselves, and Jewish culture and learning were systematically repressed. In 1949 all Yiddish publications and the Yiddish theatre were shut down, and in 1950 virtually all leaders of Jewish culture were killed or persecuted. Zhdonov ousted many Jewish men from influential positions in the party's Secretariat for the admiration of Jewish culture. He acknowledged his gratitude to "Comrade Stalin personally".
The very public and emotional support of Soviet Jews for Israel in the 1948 war was foolish, and naturally led to suspicions of disloyalty.

[Kodos]

I second that.

Why?

It leads to financial crises which kill the golden goose and mass immigration because the natives eventually don't want to work anymore...

[Leif]

I am not going to "explain" universally recognised historical facts, revisionist.

Then expect to get ignored.

Haven't you heard of Zhdanivshchina? This is the Stalinist repression of the intellectuals, quasi-Hitlerian in character.

What does this have to do with racism?

In these troubled times the Jews were branded by Stalin as "cosmopolitans". The term "rootless cosmopolitans" was applied directly to the Jews themselves, and Jewish culture and learning were systematically repressed. In 1949 all Yiddish publications and the Yiddish theatre were shut down, and in 1950 virtually all leaders of Jewish culture were killed or persecuted. Zhdonov ousted many Jewish men from influential positions in the party's Secretariat for the admiration of Jewish culture. He acknowledged his gratitude to "Comrade Stalin personally".

Uniculturalism is not anti-semitism. Anti-Judaism, perhaps, but not anti-semitism or racism.

In Stalin's times, a good Soviet citizen had to be anti-Semitic, chauvinistic, and driven by a passionate faith in the bright communist future (from which Jews would inevitably be excluded, because of narrow Socialist class-hatred which classifies Jews as "bourgeois"). Soviet poster art he was expected to judge as true art, while racistically pronouncing Jazz music as evil. Racist horrors abounded in Soviet Times.

Proof? Facts? Evidence?

It leads to financial crises which kill the golden goose and mass immigration because the natives eventually don't want to work anymore...

You are blaming socialism for something that international corporations have caused.

[Ixtab]

Flaccid retorts, Ymir. Humanist, for once, speaks the truth.

[Leif]

Flaccid retorts, Ymir. Humanist, for once, speaks the truth.

When did any Communist Party ever say that one race was superior in regards to another? How is uniculturalism racism?

[Ixtab]

When did any Communist Party ever say that one race was superior in regards to another?Never, as far as I can recall - and irrelevant.

But I am not in the mood to debate this with you, judging from your one-line respones to Humanist.

[Leif]

Never, as far as I can recall - and irrelevant.

"humanist" asserts that Communists have been racist on a large scale. Racism is the view that one race is superior to another. Therefore, if no Communist parties nor states with a leading Communist party have held this view, humanist's statement is false. He then gives cultural attacks as evidence of "racism," which is completely fallacious.

[Ixtab]

Racism is the view that one race is superior to another.That is where you are false. I despise Blacks as a race, but I do not consider them inferior beings (because I am a kind of relativist). That is none the less called 'racism'. Belief in racial superiority is a sufficient but not necessary condition. The examples Humanist has provided us with easily classify as 'racism'.

[Berianidze]

Haven't you heard of Zhdanivshchina? This is the Stalinist repression of the intellectuals, quasi-Hitlerian in character.
Firstly, it wasn't overtly oppressive as you make it sound, Zhdanov basically had to deal with a number of intellectual dissidents who opted to take a negative stance towards the Soviet state, and even going as far as to take up subversive ideologies such as those of the left-opposition (Trotsky, Kamenev, and Zinoviev - although Zinoviev was unanimously hated by the intellectual community). Zhdanov didn't represent Stalin either, although they were close allies and comrades, Zhdanov represented a rather pecular amount of autonomy in his fight against bourgeois culture and art--which subsequently was subsequently deemed counterrevolutionary.

The intellectuals which surrounded Trotsky and the other left opportunists were a viable threat, more so than any other to Soviet success. Stalin and Menzhinsky realized this at first, and the necessary action was continued by the likes of Zhdanov, Iagoda, Ezhov, and to a more limited extent, Beria. To make it sound as if communists are inherently repressive of intellectuals for no apparent reason is absurd to say the least, and unjustifiable by any historical accounts.

[Ixtab]

He then gives cultural attacks as evidence of "racism," ...Let us look up the definition of the word race:
race
n.
1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology.a. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
b. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

[Roland]

Never, as far as I can recall - and irrelevant.

But I am not in the mood to debate this with you, judging from your one-line respones to Humanist.

Certain leaders of the CPUSA made efforts to segregate the communist movement. Only after the commintern began to explicitly direct the party towards integration did a racially liberal policy take effect. Later, dictates from the commintern changed this policy to perceive blacks as a potentially revolutionary nation within the United States (a nation seperate from white culture.)
This was a theory touted by both Stalin and Trotsky; the orthodox-left had briefly came to consensus on an issue.

[Leif]

That is where you are false. I despise Blacks as a race, but I do not consider them inferior beings...

"Blacks are simply an inferior race." -Bregowald

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=33246&postcount=6

Let us look up the definition of the word race:

A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.


Jews do not fit that definition, which makes humanist's attempts to call the cultural assault upon Judaism in the USSR "anti-semitic" false.

Belief in racial superiority is a sufficient but not necessary condition. The examples Humanist has provided us with easily classify as 'racism'.

Let us look up the definition of the word racism:

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Certain leaders of the CPUSA made efforts to segregate the communist movement. Only after the commintern began to explicitly direct the party towards integration did a racially liberal policy take effect.

Interesting. Where did you get this information?

Later, dictates from the commintern changed this policy to perceive blacks as a potentially revolutionary nation within the United States (a nation seperate from white culture.)
This was a theory touted by both Stalin and Trotsky; the orthodox-left had briefly came to consensus on an issue.

They were incorrect to view the American negroes as a "national question" in that Negroes had no attributes of a nation, and thus no nation.

[Roland]

Interesting. Where did you get this information?

I met an ancient CPUSA member who is a semi-retired professor here at the University of Minnesota. He runs a journal called "Nature Society and Thought: a Journal of Dialectical and Historical Materialism." Its contributors include Michael Parenti. One of the books published by this journal was called "Organizing in the Depression South: A Communist's Memoir" by James S. Allen. I haven't read it in a while, but I believe it refers to certain racist members of the CPUSA. This professor gave a lecture on the former racist leaders of the party.

They were incorrect to view the American negroes as a "national question" in that Negroes had no attributes of a nation, and thus no nation.
I agree. But I think they were both influenced by the popularity of Garvyism.

[Ixtab]

"Blacks are simply an inferior race." -Bregowald

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=33246&postcount=6Irrelevant to my point. It is possible to despise Blacks and not think them inferior, which would none the less qualify as 'racism'. A belief in the superiority or inferiority of a particular race is not a required characteristic of 'racism'. Hostility towards a race is the crucial feature of 'racism'. This is often accompanied with a belief in that race's inferiority, but it needn't be.

Also, what is your evidence that the communists universally considered the Blacks to be equals? Humanist has provided us with a few examples to the contrary.

A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.


Jews do not fit that definition, Actually, they do fit the definition, but that wouldn't change anything anyway. I highlighted the word 'or' for you, hopefully this will assist your comprehension.

... which makes humanist's attempts to call the cultural assault upon Judaism in the USSR "anti-semitic" false.Anti-Semite = anti-Jewish.

Let us look up the definition of the word racism:Let's:

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Now re-examine definition 2 of 'race':

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

The examples Humanist has given certainly qualify as 'racism', as a matter of definition.

Now enough of these semantic games.

[infoterror]

It is possible to simply consider blacks/Slavs so different that interbreeding is a terrible idea, and thus to exclude them.

[OVERWATCH]

It is possible to simply consider blacks/Slavs so different that interbreeding is a terrible idea, and thus to exclude them.

Yes, blacks should probably not breed with slavs, blacks seem to get a very poor reception from slavs, in contrast to the warm welcomes extended to blacks by NWCE(northwest continental europeans).

[infoterror]

Yes, blacks should probably not breed with slavs, blacks seem to get a very poor reception from slavs, in contrast to the warm welcomes extended to blacks by NWCE(northwest continental europeans).

It's because we mistake them for Slavs, the two groups being nearly identical. Pick me some cotton, boy.

[Petyr Baelish]

It's because we mistake them for Slavs, the two groups being nearly identical. Pick me some cotton, boy.

LOL, are you insinuating that 88mmFlak is a Slav?

[infoterror]

LOL, are you insinuating that 88mmFlak is a Slav?

Ever heard of Evola's concept of "spiritual races"?

[Petyr Baelish]

Ever heard of Evola's concept of "spiritual races"?

No, and I don't particularly care to. I concern myself with useful and relevant things, like science. Pseudo-philosophical bullshit, on the other hand, appeals primarily to loathsome, neurotic pre-pubescent nerds who wish so desperately to have an IQ high enough to be able to understand rudimentary science, but simply haven't been gifted with such by nature.

[Leif]

Irrelevant to my point. It is possible to despise Blacks and not think them inferior, which would none the less qualify as 'racism'.

I simply want you to clarify if you believe Blacks are inferior or if that was a poor choice of words.

A belief in the superiority or inferiority of a particular race is not a required characteristic of 'racism'.

Racism in the context of a belief and not action is defined as such in the dictionary. It was very clear on this.

Hostility towards a race is the crucial feature of 'racism'. This is often accompanied with a belief in that race's inferiority, but it needn't be.

Marx was hostile to Judaism. That alone does not make him racist.

Also, what is your evidence that the communists universally considered the Blacks to be equals? Humanist has provided us with a few examples to the contrary.

The lack of racism is my evidence. Humanist has provided no proof that any Communist parties nor Communist-led states ever considered Blacks to me inferior. Roland provided evidence that certain members or leaders of the CPUSA were racist at one time, to what extent this permeated the entire party it is not clear. You will notice I never made the claim that Communists hold Blacks to be inherently equal, I merely asked for evidence to the contrary, which has thus far proven non-existent. (I am not saying either view of Blacks is false.)

Actually, they do fit the definition, but that wouldn't change anything anyway. I highlighted the word 'or' for you, hopefully this will assist your comprehension.

Explain. Jews have neither common nationality nor common geographic distribution. A case for common history could be made on a biblical basis, however. Your high-light of the word "or" does not change these facts.

Anti-Semite = anti-Jewish.

I disagree. Marx was anti-Jewish yet not an anti-semite.

Let's:

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

"Discrimination" is too broad. By that definition, anyone that makes any decision having to do with race is participating in racism.

Now re-examine definition 2 of 'race':

I have already dealt with the irrelevance of that definition above.