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Petr
02-03-2006, 03:32 PM
Interesting approach. I think that creationists and IDers have pioneered this sort of healthy suspicion towards the "Big Science" racket.

Evolutionist dogmatists are of course that sub-section of scientists that demand the most research money, give the least practical value to public in return and have the most exalted opinion of their own importance.

That would be an excellent place to start cutting funds! (SETI comes to mind) Hit the materialists where it hurts! :p


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/15/INGMDGMDSV1.DTL&hw=oderberg&sn=001&sc=1000


The unholy lust of scientists

It may be time to curtail public financing of scientific research

David S. Oderberg

Sunday, January 15, 2006


In our secular, post-religious society, the figure of the cassock-clad priest has been replaced by that of the white-coated scientist. Dispensing wisdom from the laboratory -- the secular sanctuary -- his every word is awaited breathlessly by a world thirsting for knowledge.

In Britain, the BBC has a weekly ritual of broadcasting the leading Big Discovery, whatever it may be, from the current issue of the Lancet. Dr. Robert Winston, in-vitro fertilization pioneer, has lately been on our screens "in search of God." The last time I looked he did not have any theological qualifications, but what does that matter? After all, he's a scientist, all glasses and gravitas, therefore qualified -- as he has shown during the past few years -- to tell the masses about, well, just about anything.

It's all very well having secular shamans, but when they're caught cooking the holy books once too often, the faithful start to get worried. Scientific fraud, like that perpetrated by South Korean stem-cell researcher Hwang Woo Suk, is not new. Newton did it; Dalton did it; even Sigmund Freud did it. In more recent times, IQ researcher Sir Cyril Burt (wanting to show in his studies of twins than genetics trumped environment) committed fraud, as did Australian gynecologist William McBride (he of thalidomide fame).

In the mid-1860s Ernst Haeckel, in his eagerness to defend evolution, spun pictures of human and animal embryos out of whole cloth in order to show that they shared primitive evolutionary similarities. The year 2002 saw the uncovering of apparent frauds by physicists Victor Ninov at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (in attempting to create new atomic elements), and Jan Hendrik Schön at Bell Labs (in attempting to perfect a transistor the size of a molecule).

Some scientists fudge data; others omit inconvenient evidence; yet others misrepresent the evidence they do have, obtaining levels of precision discordant with what may reasonably be expected from frequently messy experimentation with its many variables. Some scientists do all of this and more. How rare cheating is in science is hard to answer.

William Broad and Nicholas Wade, authors of the groundbreaking 1982 study "Betrayers of the Truth: Fraud and Deceit in the Halls of Science," claimed in 1983, for instance, that one-third of all pesticides then on the market had been approved on the basis of falsified safety tests. More generally, the Office of Research Integrity claims that between 1992 and 2001 reports of academic misconduct in general have steadily increased, though actual reported cases leading to a positive finding remain very small. It is nigh impossible to gauge with precision just how severe the problem is, but one should expect it to be significant and getting worse.

Typical is the remark by Oh Il-Hwan, a geneticist at South Korea's Catholic Medical Center, on the case of erstwhile "top scientist in Korea" and now disgraced fraudster Hwang Woo Suk: "I understand what drove Hwang into this state. The pressure to achieve something was enormous." When your government calls you "top scientist" and issues a postage stamp in your honor showing a paralyzed man rising from his wheelchair and running to his lady love, you know you'd better come up with the goods.

When I spoke last year on the ethical wrongs of human embryonic stem cell research at the annual meeting of the International Society for Stem Cell Research in San Francisco, I observed the hushed tones of reverence with which the name of Professor Hwang was mentioned. The eyes of eager graduate students lit up as they spoke of his work; the Big Fish declaimed with messianic zeal the new pathways that his and related research had opened up. Surely the blind would see and the lame would walk! I never heard any doubts openly expressed about the authenticity of Hwang's work, and even an habitual doubter about the latest Great Discovery such as myself was lulled into dismissing the thought that maybe the results were too good to be true.

Fortunately, as a professional philosopher, I do not have the temptation of billions of dollars of government and private money potentially flowing my way were I only able to save the world. Philosophers tend not to get postage stamps issued in their honor, and there's no Nobel Prize for our line of work. Perhaps that makes it easy for me to step on a high moral horse and condemn the fact that the most august science periodicals in the world, Science and Nature, could have had their peer review and editorial processes held up to ignominy (and not for the first time). Yet as philosophers we are -- at any rate should be -- dedicated solely to the pursuit of truth, and if we can't rely beyond a shadow of doubt on what the scientists are telling us, what hope have we of theorizing about the significance of what they assert?

In her recent op-ed piece for the Los Angeles Times, Professor Laurie Zoloth, wringing her hands in anguish, appealed to the spirit of Immanuel Kant in her plea for a "truthful narrative" from scientists. Yet she should realize that Kant himself thought we could never know how things really were, and that for humans truth lay, to put it crudely, "in the head." If calling up the ghost of a skeptic (albeit a subtle one) such as Kant -- one of the fathers of that tarnished project called the Enlightenment -- is the best we can hope for, what chance is there that scientists will forget their prizes and the mammoth paychecks dangled in front of their eyes?

It may be inviting poison e-mails to say it, but I venture to suggest that contemporary science is now so corrupted by the lust for loot and glory that nothing less than root-and-branch reform can save it. For a start, although I distance myself wholly from his anti-rationalism and methodological anarchy, I share the late philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend's demand for a separation of science and state, or at the very least a radical curtailment of public financial sponsorship of scientific research. How could the millions thrown at scientists be anything other than a veritable inducement to misconduct? When you combine it with the innumerable honors and awards that await the next would-be secular savior of humanity, one wonders that fraud is not even more common than it appears to be.

This is egregiously so when it comes to medical and other clinical research that has potential direct benefits to life and health. When we look at embryonic stem cell research, however, the matter becomes even more acute. For not only are there the temptations already mentioned, but the research itself is inherently ethically flawed and so invites dissimulation, for instance, in the case of sourcing human eggs -- as we saw at the outset of the Hwang debacle.

It would be an act of utter folly and of contempt for honesty and integrity were Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's beloved California Institute for Regenerative Medicine now to go ahead. Were a bishop to be caught doctoring the Gospels, I doubt any scientists would be rushing to approve the Church's latest request for help to build a new cathedral. Why it should be any different for the secular bishops of science is difficult to discern.


David S. Oderberg is professor of philosophy at the University of Reading, England, and author of, among many publications, the book "Moral Theory" and "Applied Ethics" (Blackwell, 2000).

Petyr Baelish
02-03-2006, 07:53 PM
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Interesting approach. I think that creationists and IDers have pioneered this sort of healthy suspicion towards the "Big Science" racket.

IDiotists and Cretinists are usually the first when it comes to anything that is anti-scientific and misological.

Evolutionist dogmatists are of course that sub-section of scientists that demand the most research money, give the least practical value to public in return and have the most exalted opinion of their own importance.

That would be an excellent place to start cutting funds! (SETI comes to mind) Hit the materialists where it hurts! :p


You are an imbecile. SETI has nothing to do with evolutionary biology.

Petr
02-03-2006, 07:58 PM
SETI has nothing to do with evolutionary biology.
The connection with the doctrine of spontaneous evolution from dead matter and SETI is obvious to anyone with a sense of logic (or intellectual honesty).


Petr

Petyr Baelish
02-03-2006, 08:01 PM
The connection with the doctrine of spontaneous evolution from dead matter and SETI is obvious to anyone with a sense of logic (or intellectual honesty).


Petr

No, it's "obvious" only to ignoramuses who either don't know or refuse to acknowldge the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.

Petyr Baelish
02-03-2006, 08:03 PM
The connection with the doctrine of spontaneous evolution from dead matter
Petr

What about the doctrine of creation of animated matter ex nihlo by infinitely improbable supernatural entities?

Petr
02-03-2006, 08:08 PM
Not, it's "obvious" only to ignoramuses who either don't know or refuse to acknowldge the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.
Indeed, many of you evos these days seem to be really desperate to distance yourself (in vain) from the embarrassing doctrine of abiogenesis.


Anyways, one of "Original Dissent" posters commented on this piece:

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22147


Petr,

Having been involved in biomedical research - and grant writing - for nearly 40years, I have dealt with hype and oputright lies concerning biomedical research and applications to human and animal health.

Billions and billions of dollars, almost as much as has been given to israel, have been WASTED on useless research over many years.

I'll give you one statistic that will 'blow your mind'. Scientists have to "publish or perish".

Therefore, in the struggle to survive, a lot of bilge has been published.

Years ago, the Institute for Scientific Information which has/had an enormous database of information on published research found this:

Of all the scientific publications, 95% were NEVER cited once over a 10 year period. IOW, other scientists did not consider the vast majority of published information, WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION LET ALONE CITATION!!

If citation frequency were used to determine the scientific value of a researcher, there'd be damned few rehired or tenured.

I doubt that this statistic has changed much over the years.

Oh, and of the 5% that were cited by others, most were cited only once!

That stinks.

The "new science" - embryonic stem cell research and recombinant DNA production applied to cure genetic diseases - has PROVEN nothing in the last 15 years.

Nothing.

I don't care if the religious approve/disapprove of it, if it were useful, I wouldn't be opposed to the "new science".

As it is, yours and my pocket are being picked for NOTHING of value. To that I am unalterably opposed.

Protruth
__________________


Petr

Petr
02-03-2006, 08:10 PM
What about the doctrine of creation of animated matter ex nihlo by infinitely improbable supernatural entities?
Please explain to us why God is "infinitely improbable", Methy. Not all of us are junkies and capable of expanding our consciousness just like that. :rolleyes:


Petr

Petyr Baelish
02-03-2006, 08:10 PM
Indeed, many of you evos these days seem to be really desperate to distance yourself (in vain) from the embarrassing doctrine of abiogenesis.

Your idiotic and utterly irrelvant commentary notwithstanding, abiogensis is not a "doctrine", nor a part of evolutionary theory. In any case, abiogenesis, whatever its drawbacks, is infinitely superior to the "self-contradictory mythical Hebrew demon did it" doctrine of life's origin.

Petr
02-03-2006, 08:12 PM
In any case, abiogenesis, whatever its drawbacks, is infinitely superior to the "self-contradictory mythical Hebrew demon did it" doctrine of life's origin.
It's not God who's being contradictory. It's you, fallen human being.


Petr

OVERWATCH
02-03-2006, 08:14 PM
It takes a long time for new technologies to come to fruition. The demand for immediate results is characteristic of today's limited attention span and need for instant gratification.

Anyone who knows anything about scientific research knows that new, radical technologies take decades to become practical or produce tangible results.

Religious zealotry retards intellectual and technological progress.

Petyr Baelish
02-03-2006, 08:17 PM
It's not God who's being contradictory. It's you, fallen human being.


Petr

Yes, I, unlike your Gawd, posses numerous self-contradictory and mutually-contradictory attributes like omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, perfection, etc...:rofl:

Petyr Baelish
02-03-2006, 08:19 PM
Please explain to us why God is "infinitely improbable", Methy. Not all of us are junkies and capable of expanding our consciousness just like that. :rolleyes:


Petr

A being that is by definition omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent is, by extension, infinitely complex. Infinitely complex entities have an infinitesimal chance of existence.

OVERWATCH
02-03-2006, 08:22 PM
I think it's best to leave the causal world to scientists, and the acausal world to priests.

It's impossible to positively claim one way or another the [non]existence of God.

Petyr Baelish
02-03-2006, 08:24 PM
It's impossible to claim one way or another the [non]existence of God.

Only if the term "God" remains undefined. If we narrow our query down to the God of Christian theology, and assume that the traits traditionally ascribed to it by theologians are pertinent, refuting its existence becomes very easy indeed.

Petr
02-03-2006, 08:30 PM
It's impossible to positively claim one way or another the [non]existence of God.
88mmFlaK, Methy is an apostate from the faith. He keeps desperately telling himself that he made a right choice.


Petr

Petr
02-03-2006, 10:14 PM
It takes a long time for new technologies to come to fruition. The demand for immediate results is characteristic of today's limited attention span and need for instant gratification.
We should take money away from evolutionist storytellers like Richard Dawkins - who are often mere propagandists for atheism on a public payroll - and give it to other scientists who give us real, tangible, mankind-benefiting results.

Evolutionist religion is not fit to survive, let it die off.


Petr

Basil Fawlty
02-04-2006, 12:06 AM
Please explain to us why God is "infinitely improbable", Methy. Not all of us are junkies and capable of expanding our consciousness just like that. :rolleyes:


PetrLeaving aside the "infinitely improbable" could you see your way to addressing the question: how is creatio ex nihilo possible?

Kodos
02-04-2006, 07:03 AM
It takes a long time for new technologies to come to fruition. The demand for immediate results is characteristic of today's limited attention span and need for instant gratification.

Anyone who knows anything about scientific research knows that new, radical technologies take decades to become practical or produce tangible results.

Which is why I break from my usual dislike of government subsidies when it comes to fundamental scientific research.

Vindex
02-04-2006, 07:38 AM
They should just tax all the churches and the big private bank accounts of the holyrollers and use it to fund science research.

Petr
02-04-2006, 09:49 AM
Antichrist, why are all your posts so dumb? Is it intentional?


Petr

Petr
02-04-2006, 09:55 AM
They should just tax all the churches and the big private bank accounts of the holyrollers and use it to fund science research.
And by the way: this is last thing the secular statists would want to do, since "tax-free status" has been their main weapon in "domesticating" mainstream churches and making them obedient tools of the state.

If they really would do what you suggest, the loyalty of religious people towards the state would collapse, and fundamentalists like me would even see that as a positive development. :p


The Theology of the Welfare State

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north397.html


Petr

Petr
02-04-2006, 09:59 AM
Leaving aside the "infinitely improbable" could you see your way to addressing the question: how is creatio ex nihilo possible?
As far as physical laws are concerned, it is silly to ask what Allmighty God can or cannot do. I could just as well ask what was before the "Big Bang."


Petr

OVERWATCH
02-04-2006, 10:02 AM
They should just tax all the churches and the big private bank accounts of the holyrollers and use it to fund science research.
Antichrist, why are all your posts so dumb? Is it intentional?


Petr
I actually thought his idea was reasonable.

Churches here are out of control, the amount of money they rake in is astounding. We even have mega-churches which are like gigantic supermalls.

All of it is tax exempt.

Which is a travesty when the middle class is being bled white by taxes.\

Tax the churches. To pay for research, and excellent plan.

I don't agree with this for Europe though, because churches are already taxed there(by attendance?) and barely alive; or so I've heard.

All these Bible thumping hucksters in the Bible belt here could definitely use a come-uppance in the form of lightening their personal fortunes.

Basil Fawlty
02-04-2006, 01:01 PM
As far as physical laws are concerned, it is silly to ask what Allmighty God can or cannot do. I could just as well ask what was before the "Big Bang."


PetrI didn't ask you about physical laws or theories. The question is a metaphysical one - how is creatio ex nihilo possible?

Petr
02-04-2006, 03:41 PM
The question is a metaphysical one - how is creatio ex nihilo possible?
Why wouldn't it be possible?


Petr

Basil Fawlty
02-04-2006, 04:28 PM
Why wouldn't it be possible?You are the one who asserts it, so you must answer the question.

Petr
02-04-2006, 05:22 PM
You are the one who asserts it, so you must answer the question.
I have no time for this sort of sophistries.


Petr

Kodos
02-04-2006, 05:24 PM
The biggest money churches are the catholic church and Mormon church, but yes they should be taxed.

Basil Fawlty
02-04-2006, 05:26 PM
I have no time for this sort of sophistries. In other words, you cannot answer. You believe in something which you cannot even justify.

Petr
02-04-2006, 05:30 PM
In other words, you cannot answer. You believe in something which you cannot even justify.
So does every other human being, to some extent. Meaningless sophistic nyah-nyah-nyahing.

Now why is the doctrine of creation ex nihilo even a problem to you?


Petr

Basil Fawlty
02-04-2006, 05:37 PM
So does every other human being, to some extent. Meaningless sophistic nyah-nyah-nyahing.Asking someone - in the context of a discussion about cosmogenesis - how is something possible is not sophistic, it is a philosophical question, i.e. state the conditions for the possibility of X. Not only can you not answer, you don't even seem to understand the question, resorting instead to the usual abuse.
Now why is the doctrine of creation ex nihilo even a problem to you?Its not a problem for me, its a problem for you because you assert it, oblivious to the consequences that it entails.

Do you even know why the Christians elaborated this doctrine (creatio ex nihilo)in the first place?

Lenny
02-04-2006, 07:20 PM
The biggest money churches are the catholic church and Mormon church, but yes they should be taxed.I agree with you there

The Catholic Church is a political power that works against the US therefore should be taxed at a high rate in my opinion

Interesting approach. I think that creationists and IDers have pioneered this sort of healthy suspicion towards the "Big Science" racket. There is no such thing as "pioneers" of anti-science hysteria. Wheresoever backwards-thinking fools or primitives are present in large numbers, you see anti-science hysteria

Péter
02-05-2006, 01:31 AM
The utilitarian, humanistic, and hedonistic imperatives of science ultimately meant its death, for its aim was no longer higher knowledge but manipulation! Ain't it funny how it followed right in the footsteps of religion? Today our scientists are priests, spreading their religious diseases.

Before either of these fields can be purged of their impurities, a radical paradigm shift is in order.